You cannot be prepared

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
“Pray for Pre, Prepare for Post.”
The above statement refers to the timing of the Catching Away of the Church. The teaching of a Pretribulational Rapture is that the Church is Caught up prior to the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel (Daniel chapter 9). Every other position (“Mid-trib”, “Pre-Wrath”, “Post-Trib”) argues that the Church has to go through some or all of God’s judgement on the earth.
Revelation 13:7 — “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.”
There is no preparation a Christian can make to survive the 70th week, if, indeed, God includes His Church in His judgement on the world. Some may think they can build secret bunkers and store up water and beans (or whatever), and hole up until God’s judgement passes. However, if the Church has to, for whatever reason, endure God’s judgement, then the Church will endure God’s judgement. If the idea is that God’s judgement doesn’t actually fall on the Church, but the Church suffers the retaliation of the earth-dwellers, then that’s a problem, too, because of the verse I quoted above.
The Pseudo-Christ will find your bunker. He will take your beans and water. He will be able to do so because “it was granted to him”. He will have technological capabilities; he will have the willing service of your spying neighbors; he will have demonic spirits that can flit about, gathering intelligence on who is not supporting him. You. have. no. chance. God is allowing it.
You will be captured quite quickly, and dragged to your torture cell. If you have family, they will be captured, too. You will be forced to watch them suffer, and they will be forced to watch you. Someone will likely break, and deny Christ, just to get the torture to stop. Maybe that someone will be you. If a family member breaks, the torturers will gloat over you. “Your son denied Christ, to keep us from hurting you. Now, watch this!” And they murder your son. “Now, he’s in Hell. Ha! Ha! Ha! Wouldn’t you like to join him?”
Revelation 13:7
There will be no heroic shoot-out in the hills for you. You have a thousand guns, and plenty of ammo. The agents of the Pseudo-Christ will flood your bunker with sleeping gas, and capture you peacefully. They will feed you false information over your “burner phone”, and draw you out of your bunker. “Psst! Meeting at 321 South Ave for all true believers!” You won’t know who to trust, or what to trust.
Revelation 13:7
You won’t be brave. You will lie in your cell, covered in your filth, with your broken bones and torn skin, sobbing, and asking God why? Why?
Revelation 13:7
You will be abandoned by all your friends. You will be abandoned by those you trust. You will be abandoned by your own family. You will learn that every single one you thought was a fellow believer was actually one of the Pseudo-Christ’s agents, and they were all spying on you, and laughing at you for your faith.
Revelation 13:7
You will not be able to learn what is going on in the outside world. You won’t see Bible Prophecy being fulfilled, and so have your faith strengthened. You will be constantly told that everything is great for those who abandon their simple-minded nonsense believe in the Bible. Hey, this Bible you believe in was written by a committee, a little over a hundred years ago, anyway. All that stuff about ancient manuscripts and early writings was all invented, as an experiment to see who would be stupid enough to believe it. It was all a lie, anyway. See; here is the proof!
Revelation 13:7
You won’t be allowed to recite the bits of Scripture you memorized years ago in Sunday School. They will play recordings of John 3:16 that will be twisted, somehow, so that you will not remember it correctly. You will start memorizing the false Scripture of the Pseudo-Christ.
Revelation 13:7

However.
However.
Revelation 7 speaks of a “great multitude” that no one could count, standing in front of God’s throne; they are from every nationality. They are the ones who came out of the great tribulation. They are standing in front of the throne of God, serving Him day and night. So, many, many people do get saved. Take heart in that; but don’t think they got there because “they were prepared”. That would mean they were saved by their works. The only reason those people are standing at God’s throne, is because of God’s grace to them.
As an afterthought, let’s look at this great multitude. They stand in front of God’s throne, serving Him in His temple. They are wearing white robes, and are carrying palm branches. These people are not the Church. Go back and read Revelation chapters two and three. The Church has the privilege to sit on Christ’s throne; we don’t stand. The church has victor’s crowns in addition to white robes of clean linen. The Church reigns with Christ. And, if the identity of the 24 Elders is properly understood, the Church is already in heaven by the time this multitude arrives.
Some true believers in Christ may scoff at the Pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church. Well, one day, soon, they are going to get a very happy surprise
 

madcat

Well-Known Member
You know, why IS it that a lot of Christians seem to WANT to go through a partial or total tribulation? And argue till the cows come home, that we will?
And vehemently call “pre-tribbers” insane and “changing the word of God” which will land them in hell.

:hmmm:hmmm
 

Rocky Rivera

Well-Known Member
For those who become believers after the Rapture and during the Great Tribulation -- God's Holy Spirit will still be there to encourage, guide, strengthen, work miracles, and indwell these brave brethren who choose to go against the world system and give their all to Christ. We can look to the example of the Apostle Paul who suffered shipwrecks, beatings, stonings, slander, many times being destitute, was imprisoned, was abandoned at times by friends, was given a thorn in the flesh, and ultimately was martyred for his faith -- of whom the world was not worthy. We don't look forward to the world of Antichrist, we look towards the Millenial Reign and ultimately the New Earth of Jesus Christ, where God is fully glorified and the knowledge of the LORD covers the Earth as the waters cover the sea.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
For those who become believers after the Rapture and during the Great Tribulation -- God's Holy Spirit will still be there to encourage, guide, strengthen, work miracles, and indwell these brave brethren who choose to go against the world system and give their all to Christ.
Brother you are correct ... up until your final point: the Holy Spirit will not indwell humans following the Rapture. It is the indwelling of saved humans that forms the Church. The Church is removed before the GT. Those who come to faith during the Great Tribulation will be like the saints of old Israel-- the Holy Spirit with them, but not in them. And yes, most will suffer martyrdom.
 

Love His Appearing

Well-Known Member
Brother you are correct ... up until your final point: the Holy Spirit will not indwell humans following the Rapture. It is the indwelling of saved humans that forms the Church. The Church is removed before the GT. Those who come to faith during the Great Tribulation will be like the saints of old Israel-- the Holy Spirit with them, but not in them. And yes, most will suffer martyrdom.
I’m a little confused. What you are implying is that the Bible won’t apply to post rapture believers. How will they know that? Are they just going to have to look at it as history? What will be THEIR truth and THEIR guide since neither the old or New Testament applies to them? Can you show me where to look to sort this out? I thought the Holy Spirit indwells everyone once they call upon the name of the lord, but if that is not true, then when DOES He indwell believers? Isn't God the same yesterday, today and forever? Maybe the churches that preach you are only filled with the spirit after you have spoken in tongues is more correct than I thought? That there is even to this day a difference between being filled and being baptized with the spirit?

AY yi. yi! The more I learn the more I know how much I don't know.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
I think that, since it is the last week of years prophesied by Daniel, then the world reverts to the OT economy, even though Jesus has already died and resurrected and ascended.

People will still be saved by faith, but will not be granted the privileges of Church Age believers. Abraham was saved by faith, but he did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit (as far as I can tell from Scripture).
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
I think that, since it is the last week of years prophesied by Daniel, then the world reverts to the OT economy, even though Jesus has already died and resurrected and ascended.

People will still be saved by faith, but will not be granted the privileges of Church Age believers. Abraham was saved by faith, but he did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit (as far as I can tell from Scripture).
This, I believe, is correct. Now the good folks at Got Questions disagree with that, as you can see by reading https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-tribulation.html. Their conclusion is that "...those who come to Jesus during the tribulation period will also be indwelt by the Holy Spirit." But if that is true, if the Holy Spirit does indwell believers during the GT just as He does during this current Church Age, equipping each one of them as He does us, then it renders the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 essentially meaningless. That passage reads:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it (the Day of the Lord, ie: His return to earth) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival." If the

We believe the "he" of that passage is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. The Church is the body of believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When the Church is removed, the Man of Sin will have free reign to begin taking over the earth. But if the Holy Spirit continues to indwell all believers on earth following the Rapture, then ipso facto there is still a Church on the earth! This cannot be. I think the late Chuck Smith, founder of the Calvary Chapel movement expressed it well:

"We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and active during the tribulation. We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since all members of that body will be in heaven. Further, we are saying that the Holy Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will not be part of the body of Christ-the church. The Holy Spirit will also aid tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the two witnesses of Revelation 11. Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses, that are not occurring during the current church age, so there will cease certain ministries unique to the church which will enable the man of sin to come onto the stage of history ....
While, therefore, the Spirit continues a ministry in the world in the tribulation, there is no longer a corporate body of believers knit into one living organism. There is rather a return to national distinctions and fulfillment of national promises in preparation for the millennium."
It is a difficult concept to grasp. But Cavalier said it well: "People will still be saved by faith, but will not be granted the privileges of Church Age believers. Abraham was saved by faith, but he did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit." Salvation during the GT can be lost if the person does not hold on to Christ to the death. That is not true of us.

I hope this helps.
 

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit started at Pentacost and ends at the Rapture (removal of the Church).
This however does not affect ones salvation during the 7 year tribulation.
Just a different stage of dispensation .
One of if not the biggest revivals will occur during the Tribulation.
Even with God's judgment many upon many will come to Him seeking salvation (and receive).

Hence the judgment...
 

Len

Well-Known Member
firstly their is the 144,000 that are testament to God's continued grace as they witness to the world, then there are the two witnesses that are given power to call down fire from heaven that proves their testimony to the world and lastly we have the Angels from the very presence of God flying about warning the whole world of the evil that they should deny and NOT partake of ....... so there is oppotunity for those in that time period to accept salvation and glory in heaven ..... but they must hold that truth in their hearts by effort themselves and cling to Gods promise of eternity after their maryterdom and death which is what that salvation will probably cost them
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
I am unsure how this applies, but when Jesus divides the sheep from the goats after the Great Tribulation, He bases His decision on their actions--whether or not they minister to His brethren (probably Jewish people). Giving up some part of one's vanishingly scarce resources and exposing one's self by visiting Jews in prison or in hospitals, are courageous acts that reveal true faith in God. It won't be enough just to know and believe that one should help the Jews; one must actually follow through, and trust,that God will provide protection and sustenance.
 
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