Will Heaven have an economy?

Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
This is a scary thought, the potential to sin in Heaven, but what about the fall of Lucifer?

Then there is 1 Corinthians 13:12, we will know as we are known. So I'm sure we'll know better!
Good question! Angels and humans are different creations, so maybe that has something to do with it. I’ve wondered previously if angels could rebel once, could it happen again, are they still vulnerable to sin?
 
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antitox

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that if an angel which is in a spiritual body turns to corruption, it consumes him. That's what happened with Satan. Man, however, is in a physical body that can be put off at some point and then be placed in a spiritual body afterward. Angels do not get this opportunity that we have. This life was given for us to pass thru so we can learn to deal with corruption the way God does, (to be like Him), and seeking His way......Him.
This example:
Heb 5:14 "But solid for is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil."

So, spiritual maturity involves learning this in our walk thru this life. (There's a lot more to it but I type slow, so I leave it on that point).

Also:
This trek thru this life is preparing us for what is to come.

Consider this:

2 Cor 4:17 "For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,"

It's indeed preparing us. :)

People ask the question, "how do we know that we won't do what Satan did?"

We won't.

Because we've been here dealing with corruption down here all this time. We've seen what evil does and what it will do to a person who's given to it. It takes them to very bad places.

The good news:

You can see that in God's divine plan He is ensuring our future. He is doing a great service to us by having us go thru this existence first. How amazing it is that He has planned this out so perfectly!
 

Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
At one point, I considered that maybe we're told that there is no sin in heaven because nothing is any longer judged as sin by God. But that falls apart when considering some of the really heinous things humans do. Now I think perhaps we won't choose to sin in heaven, because we won't have a choice or the ability to do so. I don't see how freewill can exist in heaven, at least not as we know it as here.
 

Salluz

You mean we can change these titles?
At one point, I considered that maybe we're told that there is no sin in heaven because nothing is any longer judged as sin by God. But that falls apart when considering some of the really heinous things humans do. Now I think perhaps we won't choose to sin in heaven, because we won't have a choice or the ability to do so. I don't see how freewill can exist in heaven, at least not as we know it as here.
I imagine free will will exist in the sense of "I can choose if I want the grilled cheese or the BLT" but not in the sense of being able to sin. I've already chosen God, so I don't need or want any ability to go back on that
 

Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
I imagine free will will exist in the sense of "I can choose if I want the grilled cheese or the BLT" but not in the sense of being able to sin. I've already chosen God, so I don't need or want any ability to go back on that
Then the question becomes can you choose to eat too many of those burgers or BLTs? When one can’t die, is gluttony and excess still a thing? If the answer is “no”, then it’s either because it’s no longer sin, or because we are prevented, in which case it’s not free will. If the answer is “yes, but we will simply not choose to eat, drink, consume too much”, then that implies the ability to choose gluttony would exist in heaven. I don’t believe scripture indicates that it does. I just don’t see true free will being possible.
 
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Salluz

You mean we can change these titles?
Then the question becomes can you choose to eat too many of those burgers or BLTs? When one can’t die, is gluttony and excess still a thing? If the answer is “no”, then it’s not free will. If the answer is “yes, but we will simply not choose to eat, drink, consume too much”, then that implies the ability to choose gluttony would exist in heaven. I don’t believe scripture indicates that it does.
The desire for too much comes from our sinful natures. It just won't cross our minds to take more than is necessary in the same way we won't have lustful or covetous thoughts.

Edit: to be clear, I think we will have neither the desire nor ability to sin.

But I do think we will have choices within what is good in the same way we do now. I think people were created with diverse interests and tastes for God's glory, and that will continue.
 

Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
The desire for too much comes from our sinful natures. It just won't cross our minds to take more than is necessary in the same way we won't have lustful or covetous thoughts.

Edit: to be clear, I think we will have neither the desire nor ability to sin.

But I do think we will have choices within what is good in the same way we do now. I think people were created with diverse interests and tastes for God's glory, and that will continue.
That’s why I tend to view our eternity as sort of a pleasant, but mindless collective. The ability to make choices requires a free will. A true free will is predicated upon the existence of sin. And there is no sin in heaven. I know that doesn’t sound as fanciful as our emotions want it to be, but it’s the most logical to my mind.
 

Salluz

You mean we can change these titles?
That’s why I tend to view our eternity as sort of a pleasant, but mindless collective. The ability to make choices requires a free will. A true free will is predicated upon the existence of sin. And there is no sin in heaven. I know that doesn’t sound as fanciful as our emotions want it to be, but it’s the most logical to my mind.
That doesn't sound like the promise we were given that eye hasn't seen, nor ear heard, nor has entered into the mind the things God has prepared for those who love him... that sounds like how a heroin addict lives now, just mindless pleasure. If it hasn't entered into our minds just how amazing heaven will be, it will exceed our wildest expectations, not fall drastically short of them.

And I believe your conception of free will is flawed. It is within what we know of the character of God to create people and animals with diversity. Why would He change His mind and make everyone the exact same?
 

OnlyHim

Well-Known Member
I think we need to try and understand that Heaven will be a new place. A new reality. The Bible tells us that God is outside of time. Time was created for us here on earth to keep order. But God is outside of that. This is an important truth. It means He is outside of our known earthly reality meaning His place is different. Though His word reveals certain things about who He is the fact is He is not of this world. Now I say that because it points to a place, shall we say, that is completely different for our place...the world. So that tells me that Heaven is going to be completely different even though we will recognize people and some things like animals and trees and plants and the like. It will be familiar but different. I think our economy as we know it will be that of service. Service to God first and others second. No money will exchange hands like we know it but it will be acts of service and perhaps creation and creativity such as in music or art in everything. It will be an economy if giving....and perhaps receiving. The currency will be different via acts of service and expression of love and service verses money. I don’t know I’m a slug. Just thinking out loud. :)
 

ByGod'sGrace

Well-Known Member
That’s why I tend to view our eternity as sort of a pleasant, but mindless collective.
That reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek. I remember when I was little, I thought heaven would just be sitting on a cloud, wearing a white robe, and singing with my harp forever and ever. God is the ultimate Creator, and He created us all differently for a reason, not just to be different on Earth from each other, but to fulfill our eternal purpose as well; someone once told me that our lives on Earth are like the scaffolding on a structure we can't even imagine. God created our curiosity, our desire to investigate and explore, and our desire to find and celebrate beauty - so, to me, our abilities God gave us and our spiritual gifts will continue on into heaven and on the New Earth as well. I don't think heaven will be like an eternal holding pattern of predictability. Why would all the things that make us "us" be erased, just because we no longer have a sin nature? That makes it seem like Adam and Eve were mindless drones until they sinned. I do not think that was the case.
 

ByGod'sGrace

Well-Known Member
Yes, that comparison has crossed my mind actually. Do you recall how the New Jerusalem where we will live is described? It’s a big cube, eerily similar to the borg ship.
lol, oh my!
Look at how beautiful this world is, and it has the curse of sin. Just imagine beauty with no sin.
I'm not sure why New Jerusalem is a big cube, but God made science/math for a reason.
I figure if God wanted us to all be mindless drones, He would have made us that way already?
 

Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
lol, oh my!
Look at how beautiful this world is, and it has the curse of sin. Just imagine beauty with no sin.
I'm not sure why New Jerusalem is a big cube, but God made science/math for a reason.
I figure if God wanted us to all be mindless drones, He would have made us that way already?
Taking predestination into consideration, perhaps we are in some sense, mindless drones already. We have a perception of free will here on earth, but if God made a plan for our life, and He is all knowing, then it’s debatable just how much free will we really wield. I’ve considered that possibly we only had one truly free will choice to make - whether to accept or reject Christ. If we accept Him, God’s individual plan for us kicks in, and we no longer are in control of how are life twists and turns because God is using us as He sees fit for his Glory.

We are not our own. He made us for himself, his pleasure, his glory. We were not made for our own interests. So I suspect Heaven will be the same. We are there solely to glorify God. Our pleasure is a byproduct. We are voluntarily enslaved to a master for His glory. We agree to those terms essentially. My concept kicks against all the typical portrayals I realize, and I don’t convey it to discourage. But I believe it to be just as legitimate of speculation as the romanticized versions. It certainly presents a more submissive and prostrate version if nothing else.

In the end, none of our speculation matters really. We will be there, and we will be in a euphoric state.
 
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Andy C

Reborn to fly
Will it be possible for us to sin in heaven?"

Answer:
The Bible describes heaven or the eternal state in great detail in Revelation chapters 21–22. Nowhere in those chapters is the possibility of sin mentioned. In fact, we have the promise that, in the eternal state, we will never experience death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4)—the absence of those things is proof positive that sin is also absent, since those things are the product of sin (see Romans 6:23).

The sinful will not be in heaven but in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Nothing impure will ever enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Outside of heaven are those who sin (Revelation 22:15). An Old Testament prophecy also assures us that the Kingdom of God will exclude sinfulness:
“A highway will be there;
it will be called the Way of Holiness;
it will be for those who walk on that Way.
The unclean will not journey on it;
wicked fools will not go about on it. . . .
But only the redeemed will walk there” (Isaiah 35:8–9).
So, the answer is, no, it will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

God wills our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3); that is, He wills to make us holy and free of sin. Our sanctification has three phases: positional sanctification, which saves us from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith in Christ; progressive sanctification, which saves us from the power of sin as we grow in Christ; and complete sanctification, which saves us from the presence of sin as we enter the presence of Christ. “When Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). In other words, the process by which God sanctifies us involves justification, maturation, and glorification.

The glorification that God promises His children (Romans 8:30) necessarily includes sinlessness, because sinful beings cannot be glorious. Heaven, the place of God’s glory, is sinless. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely” (ESV), and he links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. It will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

James 1:14 provides another assurance that we will not sin in heaven: “Each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.” In this sinful world, we face temptation daily, and James identifies two forces that prompt us to sin: our own evil desire (our sin nature) and enticement (the devil’s schemes). Neither of those forces will be in heaven. Our sin nature will have been eradicated in our glorification, and the tempter will have been consigned to the lake of fire where he can do us no harm (Revelation 20:10).

The Bible’s teaching is that heaven or the eternal state is completely holy. There will be no possibility of sin, we will be clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8), and will we be eternally confirmed in our state of bliss. The work that God promised to complete in us will have been finished (Philippians 1:6). Our deliverance will be complete, as the elect are redeemed—body, soul, and mind—to the glory of the Lamb (Revelation 5:6–10).
https://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-sin.html
 

ByGod'sGrace

Well-Known Member
Taking predestination into consideration, perhaps we are in some sense, mindless drones already. We have a perception of free will here on earth, but if God made a plan for our life, and He is all knowing, then it’s debatable just how much free will we really wield. I’ve considered that possibly we only had one truly free will choice to make - whether to accept or reject Christ. If we accept Him, God’s individual plan for us kicks in, and we no longer are in control of how are life twists and turns because God is using us as He sees fit for his Glory.

We are not our own. He made us for himself, his pleasure, his glory. We were not made for our own interests. So I suspect Heaven will be the same. We are there solely to glorify God. Our pleasure is a byproduct. We are voluntarily enslaved to a master for His glory. We agree to those terms essentially. My concept kicks against all the typical portrayals I realize, as I don’t convey it to discourage. But I believe it to be just as legitimate of speculation as the romanticized versions. It certainly presents a more submissive and prostrate version if nothing else.

In the end, none of our speculation matters really. We will be there, and we will be in a euphoric state.
I understand what you are getting at, but it seems very bleak. I've read your post several times and while I appreciate your approach and logic, I disagree. I don't think that imagining heaven and the New Earth as a place filled with love, purpose, and individuality or individual pursuits is romanticized. The imagery in the Bible of the Church as the Bride of Christ, etc., is the most romantic thing ever...so to me, eternal life is an eternal, deepening love and relationship with God that we enjoy in our own way; God made each of us different. If the soul is the essence of who we are, personality, etc., I like to imagine myself in heaven just as I am now, except with no sin and no tears and no death. It is like coming home to a place you've been so homesick for, so the happiness of getting there is not something our human brains can understand.
 
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Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
As I indicated, I realize my ponderings challenge the conventional constructs. The intellect that God provided me just leads me to approach it with less fantastical conjecture.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
As I indicated, I realize my ponderings challenge the conventional constructs. The intellect that God provided me just leads me to approach it with less fantastical conjecture.
Respectfully, my friend, I would suggest that your "intellect"-driven ponderings are leading to rather fantastical conjecture in your own mind. After all, if our free will extends only to accepting or rejecting Christ, then the entire history of humankind prior to the Cross was merely a fanciful deception and the Church-era Scripture verses warning us not to abandon our faith are meaningless, in that once we have accepted Christ our continued faith in Him is not the result of our mutual love but merely the result of our having no choice. Your ponderings take the sovereign God of Creation who is marvelously and transcendentally omnipotent while still permitting man free will (a fact which makes His Being even more mind-boggling) and turns him into a mere puppet-master who cannot control His Creation unless he takes free will from man and makes him a marionette dancing to His desires. Sorry, friend, that's not the God I serve.

I don't think we should ever blame our thinking on God because He is the One who gave us our intellect. Rather, we should blame ourselves for employing it outside the compass of His Word.
 

Narrow Path

Well-Known Member
Will it be possible for us to sin in heaven?"

Answer:
The Bible describes heaven or the eternal state in great detail in Revelation chapters 21–22. Nowhere in those chapters is the possibility of sin mentioned. In fact, we have the promise that, in the eternal state, we will never experience death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4)—the absence of those things is proof positive that sin is also absent, since those things are the product of sin (see Romans 6:23).

The sinful will not be in heaven but in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Nothing impure will ever enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Outside of heaven are those who sin (Revelation 22:15). An Old Testament prophecy also assures us that the Kingdom of God will exclude sinfulness:
“A highway will be there;
it will be called the Way of Holiness;
it will be for those who walk on that Way.
The unclean will not journey on it;
wicked fools will not go about on it. . . .
But only the redeemed will walk there” (Isaiah 35:8–9).
So, the answer is, no, it will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

God wills our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3); that is, He wills to make us holy and free of sin. Our sanctification has three phases: positional sanctification, which saves us from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith in Christ; progressive sanctification, which saves us from the power of sin as we grow in Christ; and complete sanctification, which saves us from the presence of sin as we enter the presence of Christ. “When Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). In other words, the process by which God sanctifies us involves justification, maturation, and glorification.

The glorification that God promises His children (Romans 8:30) necessarily includes sinlessness, because sinful beings cannot be glorious. Heaven, the place of God’s glory, is sinless. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely” (ESV), and he links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. It will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

James 1:14 provides another assurance that we will not sin in heaven: “Each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.” In this sinful world, we face temptation daily, and James identifies two forces that prompt us to sin: our own evil desire (our sin nature) and enticement (the devil’s schemes). Neither of those forces will be in heaven. Our sin nature will have been eradicated in our glorification, and the tempter will have been consigned to the lake of fire where he can do us no harm (Revelation 20:10).

The Bible’s teaching is that heaven or the eternal state is completely holy. There will be no possibility of sin, we will be clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8), and will we be eternally confirmed in our state of bliss. The work that God promised to complete in us will have been finished (Philippians 1:6). Our deliverance will be complete, as the elect are redeemed—body, soul, and mind—to the glory of the Lamb (Revelation 5:6–10).
https://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-sin.html
Agreed, there is no sin in heaven. That supports my idea that there is then also no way that true free will can exist. If one can only choose an option that is a variation choice rather than an opposition choice, in my mind that’s not free will. So when it is suggested that we will have the ability to choose between things that are all equally righteous, I wouldn’t consider that a literal free will. There is no sin in heaven, and thus no ability, not even an option to choose sin. That’s a good thing. But it’s not free will.

Which then supports my contention that we will be more like a collective than individuals with true free wills to distinguish us from one another.

Again, it doesn’t really matter how we feel about it. Just fun to chew on.
 
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