Will Heaven have an economy?

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Agreed, there is no sin in heaven. That supports my idea that there is then also no way that true free will can exist. If one can only choose an option that is a variation choice rather than an opposition choice, in my mind that’s not free will. So when it is suggested that we will have the ability to choose between things that are all equally righteous, I wouldn’t consider that a literal free will. There is no sin in heaven, and thus no ability, not even an option to choose sin. That’s a good thing. But it’s not free will.
That assumes we will have the same mental makeup in heaven. From our earthly perspective, yes, your post makes since. However, I think there is no possible way we can fully comprehend how we will be, or how our new Home will be in Heaven.

You cant project or compare how free will is here and now, to how it will be in a Glorified body.
 

Amethyst

Angie ... †
We will be CHOOSING to love Him in heaven. And I believe all these pains and sorrows we are allowed to go through in this life are tailored for our individual need for our eternal future.
(2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.)
 

ByGod'sGrace

under His wings - Psalm 91:4
We will be CHOOSING to love Him in heaven. And I believe all these pains and sorrows we are allowed to go through in this life are tailored for our individual need for our eternal future.
(2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.)
Amen!!
 

Moonlight

Life Everlasting
I think we should precisely define what we are talking about.

Free Will is the ability to choose things by yourself without any outside influence forcing you to choose a certain thing.

This can be about your own physical control of your body, as well as your own control of your thoughts.

Any thoughts that are not of our free-will are necessarily someone else’s thoughts, so you therefore are able to know your own thoughts.

There are subtle distinctions between Free Will and Ability

A person with free will might not be able to fly, for example, but he still has free will since his non-ability to fly does not force him to choose anything.

Limiting one aspect of someone’s free will does not erase their ability to choose on their own for other things.

If we give up part of our free will to God so that we may not sin, then our future God-imposed rejection of sinning will still be according to our free will.

The thing about Heaven is that although we may not be able to fully grasp what it is like from here, it is still logically comprehensible, as logic is true in heaven just as it is everywhere else.

Two more things I want to add to.

The analogy with Jesus not sinning doesn’t quite work here. Although He is fully a man, He is also fully God, and so by necessity it is impossible for Him to sin or desire to sin.

This doesn’t degrade His sacrifice as He was still a sinless substitute and willingly laid down His life for us.
And it doesn’t degrade God’s righteousness as He still freely chooses not to sin, which is in accordance with His nature. He is still choosing by Himself; no outside influence is forcing Him.

Finally, I agree that God being “okay” with sin in Heaven is completely impossible.
Sin is against God’s very nature, and if it becomes “okay” at all, then what was the point of the last several thousand years of history? What was the point of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins?

God is unchanging, and so His nature is always against sin. Sin is intrinsically unlovingness; hate.
 

Narrow Path

Active Member
Respectfully, my friend, I would suggest that your "intellect"-driven ponderings are leading to rather fantastical conjecture in your own mind. After all, if our free will extends only to accepting or rejecting Christ, then the entire history of humankind prior to the Cross was merely a fanciful deception and the Church-era Scripture verses warning us not to abandon our faith are meaningless, in that once we have accepted Christ our continued faith in Him is not the result of our mutual love but merely the result of our having no choice. Your ponderings take the sovereign God of Creation who is marvelously and transcendentally omnipotent while still permitting man free will (a fact which makes His Being even more mind-boggling) and turns him into a mere puppet-master who cannot control His Creation unless he takes free will from man and makes him a marionette dancing to His desires. Sorry, friend, that's not the God I serve.

I don't think we should ever blame our thinking on God because He is the One who gave us our intellect. Rather, we should blame ourselves for employing it outside the compass of His Word.

Well Matt, with the lack of scriptural clarity in regards to heaven, we can only speculate. That drives my ponderings towards a more logic based approach. Granted, that is limited mortal logic, but that doesn’t make it a lesser conjecture. I understand that is bound to be unsettling for some. It may seem fantastical because it challenges long held notions based on emotion and scriptural inference.

Regarding the extent of our free will, I only said I consider it as a possibility. I’m not claiming it as an absolute. It’s an attempt to come to grips with the predestination-free will duality.

But in regards to the cross, Christ’s sacrifice paid for all sin past, present and future for those who believe. God knows us, knows who has a heart for righteousness, including those who preceded Jesus. Just as OT heroes couldn’t accept a savior who had not yet come, we still understand them to be redeemed because of their faith and apparent appetite for God’s righteousness. We know this to be true as Moses and Elijah were present at the transfiguration.

So, no.... I don’t advocate that the “entire history of humankind prior to the Cross was merely a fanciful deception”.

You do make a good point about the NT passages that warn against abandoning faith however. Will have to mull that over! Again, this is just my attempt at reconciling predestination and free will without simply gravitating to what I want scripture to say.

Some of your other comments are putting words in my mouth, and I’ll just leave those be.

But I will clarify that I’m not ”blaming God”. I’m just clay. Ironically, employing intellect outside of the compass of His word is precisely how I view most of our long held conjectures simply because there is little to no direct scripture to support them.

In the end, it doesn’t really matter. I have the assurance of my salvation as I assume you do as well. If COVID 19 brings about the rapture, we can get together on the other side and rehash this.
 

Jonathan

Well-Known Member
This is probably a dumb question, but will Heaven be like Earth? An economy, jobs, entertainment? Not that we will need any of it, and I'm certain whatever job we had would be the best thing ever, but I'm curious. What about a website to keep up with all the goings on in different parts of Heaven? My mind has great difficulty with understanding Heaven. All I know is it will be the greatest place ever, but that leaves much to the imagination!
I think it is a GREAT question, not dumb at all. I can only speculate.... it God's handiwork, the Universe, is telling of His mind, then it surely will, but probably not in the way we can imagine. I certainly don't think there will be "poor" people in heaven.
 

Narrow Path

Active Member
That assumes we will have the same mental makeup in heaven. From our earthly perspective, yes, your post makes since. However, I think there is no possible way we can fully comprehend how we will be, or how our new Home will be in Heaven.

You cant project or compare how free will is here and now, to how it will be in a Glorified body.

True enough Andy. However, the inverse is also true for most of that position as well.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Agreed, there is no sin in heaven. That supports my idea that there is then also no way that true free will can exist. If one can only choose an option that is a variation choice rather than an opposition choice, in my mind that’s not free will. So when it is suggested that we will have the ability to choose between things that are all equally righteous, I wouldn’t consider that a literal free will. There is no sin in heaven, and thus no ability, not even an option to choose sin. That’s a good thing. But it’s not free will.

Which then supports my contention that we will be more like a collective than individuals with true free wills to distinguish us from one another.

Again, it doesn’t really matter how we feel about it. Just fun to chew on.
Interesting, and quite plausible given the intellectual and physical paradigms in which we now operate. But our new bodies and the minds with which we will operate there may not be subject to the same rules of the sphere of logic which currently governs—indeed, limits—our various rhetoric, heuristic, and dialectic reasonings in this life. Therefore, in the absence of clear Scripture on the subject, it is dangerous for us to pursue a line of thinking that leads to a not particularly happy thought about what God has for us in Heaven. We are told He has treasures and wonders for us there. I do not think the lack of free will would enable us to fully enjoy them. Robots lack the ability for true enjoyment because any emotion they feel is programmed into them or, at least, guided by what they are allowed or not allowed to reason or do. Thus their "enjoyment" of anything is only a mechanical construct. Therefore, I believe free will is necessary to enjoy Heaven. And do not the angels who inhabit Heaven have free will? They surely do, or one third of them would not have risen up in rebellion with Satan. It's an interesting topic you raise, but sometimes we need to apply Deuteronomy 29:29. Our work here should be to share the wonders of God's love for us and the glory of His promise to us, not raise issues that cast a shadow over that promise and—frankly—insert a little doubt into the actual nature of that love..
 

Narrow Path

Active Member
For what it’s worth, I share encouragement with those who are immature in their faith, or who possibly have no faith. My niece / goddaughter posted on her social media asking for optimistic comments in regards to the virus. She is basically Christian in name only from what I can detect. I contributed the following:

“Here is my optimism... this crisis is an excellent opportunity for people to feel broken, discouraged, confused, and humbled enough to finally come to understand that they need Jesus. Really need him.....24/7. We are a very proud, arrogant nation. Most of the world is as well. We have experienced great wealth and prosperity. We think its because of our own greatness, our own intelligence, education, talents that we have acquired all the ease, comfort and luxury that we have known. That is a lie. All provision comes from God. And many show their gratefulness by shutting him out of their lives. We ignore his commands and his truth. We think we get to determine what is best for us. Our hearts grow hard against our creator. We become haughty. That's a bad path. It's the wide path, the wide gate that leads to destruction (damnation). The bible tells us "pride goes before a fall". It does not get any clearer than that. That means that when people raise themselves up in their own minds and hearts, that God will discipline them. Knock them down a peg. Do you feel like that is what is happening now as we see our fake gods of wealth, sports and entertainment being taken from us? Discipline like this has happened numerous times as documented in scripture. God does it because He loves us. Parents discipline their children out of love to protect them. Now is the time to come to the cross, repent, pray, get acquainted or reacquainted with the savior. I know this isn't the type of rainbows and puppy dogs answer this thread was intending to evoke, but its the most important optimism that people need to hear. God loves you. Jesus died for you. In times of great despair, one's faith in God and trust in Christ gives you peace of mind. Christians take shelter and comfort in knowing that our Father will never forsake us. We may experience hardships, but ultimately, eternal life in heaven is the greatest optimism one can seek.”
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
Respectfully, my friend, I would suggest that your "intellect"-driven ponderings are leading to rather fantastical conjecture in your own mind. After all, if our free will extends only to accepting or rejecting Christ, then the entire history of humankind prior to the Cross was merely a fanciful deception and the Church-era Scripture verses warning us not to abandon our faith are meaningless, in that once we have accepted Christ our continued faith in Him is not the result of our mutual love but merely the result of our having no choice. Your ponderings take the sovereign God of Creation who is marvelously and transcendentally omnipotent while still permitting man free will (a fact which makes His Being even more mind-boggling) and turns him into a mere puppet-master who cannot control His Creation unless he takes free will from man and makes him a marionette dancing to His desires. Sorry, friend, that's not the God I serve.

I don't think we should ever blame our thinking on God because He is the One who gave us our intellect. Rather, we should blame ourselves for employing it outside the compass of His Word.

Thank you for that, and very well said.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
Regarding the extent of our free will, I only said I consider it as a possibility. I’m not claiming it as an absolute. It’s an attempt to come to grips with the predestination-free will duality.

I would recommend that you consider the teachings of folks like William Lane Craig on this particular topic. To be sure, it is a logic puzzle that has tripped up believers throughout the church age and, in my opinion, is still causing quite a lot of trouble in the church today.

I believe we can all rest assured that God, in his supreme love, foreknowledge, and wisdom, has created "the best of all possible worlds", in which the greatest number of people will freely choose to love Him and accept the gracious gift of salvation that He's offered to us all. Remember this too: God could not achieve what He clearly desires - our reciprocal love and worship - through an act of force.
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
This was an interesting set of posts. Although I've never had a problem with the idea of free will in Heaven, but also being unable to sin (never saw this as any sort of contradiction), but reading these posts helped me solidify my view if this. I really liked the argument that we have free will now, but no wings, so the fact that we can't choose to fly doesn't mean we lack free will.
 

Amethyst

Angie ... †
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


This verse tells me I will think like our Lord himself thinks. I won’t want to sin.
 
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Eric Nicholas

Well-Known Member
This is the God of DNA and what inspired the baroque. That alone is enough, and in my opinion, isn't to be understated, to put me in awe of what is to come. Boring isn't even remotely close to what will be realized. I don't think it will just be harps. Not by a long shot. I think it will knock our socks clean off, as implied, if not outright stated in scripture. Hallelujah for that and maranatha, for heaven's sake!
 

Endangered

Well-Known Member
Will there be an economy in heaven?
Will some of us get married and procreate?
Will there be needy and poor people in heaven?
Will we grow our own food or will we even need food?
If we dont work, what will be doing?
There are a thousand questions that the Bible doesnt answer. I think God specifically did this because belief requires faith.
God has all this stuff worked out and we all get to be pleasantly surprised when we get there.
 
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