Why doesn't the USA help Israel in the Gog/Magog War?


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Jesus coming for his church has to be really close since Jesus said that the generation (that saw the rebirth of Israel) would not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.

The Psalm 83 war will precede the tribulation period

The rise of the antichrist comes after the rapture but before the tribulation Daniel 9:27

the nations that are involved in the Psalm 83 war are not mentioned in the Ezekiel 38 and 39 war which means that Gog Magog takes place after the Psalm 83 war

The Psalm 83 war is going to involve Isaiah 17 of Damascus becoming a ruinous heap in one nights time

The Psalm 83 war also involves Egypt which will become desolate for 40 years Ezekiel 29:11

Russia must survive the Psalm 83 war for the only time it does invade is when Israel is at peace Ezekiel 38:11 and this has to be inside the trib period under the peace covenant of Dan 9:27

where does the U.S. fit in, the nation being described in Jeremiah 50 is described as being the hindermost of the nations or the last of the nations Jer 50:12

it is described as being attacked from the north Jeremiah 50:3 , (going over the north pole from the U.S. who is there Russia)

it is described as the hammer of all the earth Jer 50:23

Arrows shall be be shot at this latter day nation Jer 50:9 and none shall return in vain (missiles anyone)

the results, this nation described will be as Sodom and Gomorrah Jer 50:40

The imagery and description are there as the identity of the hindermost or last of the nations.

In Jeremiah 51:5,6 the same warning is given to his people Israel to flee out of the midst of Babylon as in Revelation 18:4,5

Well you can judge for yourselves, there are more parallel passages between Jeremiah 50 and 51 and Revelation 18
Excellent response! Thank you!


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This is only if the Gog/Magog war is Pre-Rapture!

I have been contemplating this. The only scenario I can fathom is that the USA is put out of action, for whatever reason, prior to this planned invasion. If all the Jews from the nations of the world are going back to Israel, what would make them do so? Anti-Semitism is likely the culprit. So, in Europe, the Jews are being driven out due to the influx of migrants from the Middle East, predominantly Muslim. In the USA, we're seeing the same thing, but the Jews aren't going to leave until something drastic happens. That could be an economic crash or a sudden, very deadly, rise in anti-Semitism here.

I am just thinking out loud, but if a Democrat were to be elected next, I could fully see an anti-Jewish backlash from the Left. They are all about equality, unless you're Christian or Jewish. The Jews then start leaving the US in droves, heading home. If you Google 'Jews leaving Europe', you will see they are leaving now, but a far greater number will be leaving soon due to how they are being treated. That clears up the bulk of the Jews going home. Now, why would the USA not support Israel in her time of greatest need? I can only think of two reasons. One is the Rapture. We simply aren't here. In that case, it's quite possible the Jews flock home to Israel simply to be safe. With no Christians around, I cannot imagine the hatred they would feel. The second, and only other reason, I can think of is a war prior to Gog/Magog. If the US chooses to fight Iran and her proxies in the coming months, we could be in for a surprise. That surprise could be a much bigger fight than we anticipated. Here is where I think the "hook in the jaw" comes in. With Iran & Russia have a defense pact, if we go to war with Iran now, and Israel steps in and bombs their nuclear reactors, Russia would be obligated to do something. If not, they risk losing all the business they currently do with the Muslims, and they do a lot of that. Pressure could be put on Russia to step up or get lost.

I am beginning to think the Rapture will not be the reason the USA sits out of Gog/Magog and leaning more towards us simply not being in a position (able) to help. I can see the scenario in which we attack Iran's proxy forces and Israel does the real damage by swooping in to thoroughly destroy the reactors, leading to Russia being hooked in, even though they don't want to be. Even in this scenario though, what happened to the USA? It is unfathomable to me we would sit by while armies gathered at their doorstep. If we stepped up, it's probably not far fetched to think others would as well. Since we don't, nobody else does. I'm certain many world leaders would just as soon have Israel gone so the fighting ends. Does the USA get knocked out in the upcoming war? An EMP, an cyber attack that shuts us down or something else? If this war happens prior to the Rapture, I have to think the USA is devastated somehow prior to it beginning.
I reread your question, your question is a valid one and I think scripture answers why the U.S. does not help, which I already answered in previous posts, the campaign of Armageddon begins with Russia taking out the U.S. ,being taken out by a surprise attack from the North, as described in Jeremiah 50 and 51. When the invasion of Israel by Russia takes place(Ezekiel 38 and 39) , the condition of Israel at the time is; she is dwelling in safety(Ezekiel 38:11) because of the covenant(Dan 9:27), You ask why the Jews are persecuted and not returning to Israel, because the covenant that will be negotiated will be strengthened to the point that peace will reign for those three and one half years and enforced by antichrist

When Israel is invaded by antichrist he will set himself up to be god by proclaiming himself to be god, he will have no choice but to do so since he will have proclaimed himself to be the saviour of the world and he will take credit as the one that destroyed the Russian invasion, since it is that it is the Russians that are the ones responsible for breaking the peace covenant(Matthew 24:15) (Daniel 11:41).

When he(antichrist) sets himself up in the land of Israel (Daniel 11:41-45) news out of the east and the north shall trouble him and who are these but the 200,000,000 man army from the east and the remnant or the 1/6 of the invading army that was not destroyed by the Lord in the invasion by Russia.

The whole encounter will end, or the campaign of Armageddon will end, at the second coming of Christ, as described in Revelation 19


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We probably won't be a world power at that time..or we could be in a civil war..or natural disasters may be taking over the country..we could go back into isolation...we might have an Obama type president...if it happens after the Rapture..we could be part of the one world government. ...or in negotiations to become such..and not wanting to mess up any chance of becoming members!..the wimpy Obama type president just sends a token type message asking....asking. what do you think you're doing? In the nicest way possible...


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Chapter 50

1 The word that the LORD spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.
2 Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.
3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast.
4 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.
5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.
8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.
9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.
10 And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.
11 Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls;
12 Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.
13 Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.
14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the LORD.
15 Shout against her round about: she hath given her hand: her foundations are fallen, her walls are thrown down: for it is the vengeance of the LORD: take vengeance upon her; as she hath done, do unto her.
16 Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest: for fear of the oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people, and they shall flee every one to his own land.
17 Israel is a scattered sheep; the lions have driven him away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.
18 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.
19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.
20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
21 Go up against the land of Merathaim, even against it, and against the inhabitants of Pekod: waste and utterly destroy after them, saith the LORD, and do according to all that I have commanded thee.
22 A sound of battle is in the land, and of great destruction.
23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!
24 I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD.
25 The LORD hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.
26 Come against her from the utmost border, open her storehouses: cast her up as heaps, and destroy her utterly: let nothing of her be left.
27 Slay all her bullocks; let them go down to the slaughter: woe unto them! for their day is come, the time of their visitation.
28 The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, the vengeance of his temple.
29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.
30 Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD.
31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.
32 And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him.
33 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The children of Israel and the children of Judah were oppressed together: and all that took them captives held them fast; they refused to let them go.
34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.
35 A sword is upon the Chaldeans, saith the LORD, and upon the inhabitants of Babylon, and upon her princes, and upon her wise men.
36 A sword is upon the liars; and they shall dote: a sword is upon her mighty men; and they shall be dismayed.
37 A sword is upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her; and they shall become as women: a sword is upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed.
38 A drought is upon her waters; and they shall be dried up: for it is the land of graven images, and they are mad upon their idols.
39 Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.
41 Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
42 They shall hold the bow and the lance: they are cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, every one put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon.
43 The king of Babylon hath heard the report of them, and his hands waxed feeble: anguish took hold of him, and pangs as of a woman in travail.
44 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan unto the habitation of the strong: but I will make them suddenly run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?
45 Therefore hear ye the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Babylon; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitation desolate with them.
46 At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations.

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Yes and yes

Simply, because it is God's promise
I've been away for a bit and am trying to catch up. Where does the Bible say America is Babylon? I disagree with that 100%. America is dangerously close to no longer being a power to be reckoned with. Other nations have been trying for several years to get the dollar taken away as the reserve currency. I suspect it will be at some point. The OWG isn't going to use the dollar as their currency. America has one legit ally we can count on. If we fell today, who would weep? The UK, maybe Japan. Most other nations would be thrilled. Outside of Israel, the entire ME would love to see us fall. Same for Central and South America along with Africa.

I like your thoughts on other things, but us being the Babylon referred to in the Bible isn't accurate. I'm also not a believe the Gog/Magog war happens at the mid-point of the Trib. I'm open to suggestions on that as I'm not dogmatic about it. I'm pretty dogmatic that we aren't Babylon though.


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I would then invite you to read J. Dwight Pentecost book "Things to Come"

this is a comment by a reader on his book,

May I say I have had a copy of this book for at least forty years. I recently loaned my copy to a Pastor friend and decided to let him keep it. I then ordered a new copy. Dr. Pentecost places before you Biblical Eschatology from a pre-millenial viewpoint in a clear, concise, and understandable format. In a time when this teaching is being redefined, misunderstood and even abandoned every serious Bible student needs a copy of this book in his library. It will give him / her valuable Biblical teaching in Eschatology at his / her fingertips for study, meditation or teaching.

I will repost a portion of his writing from an earlier post giving the argument for the midtribulation invasion of Russia

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One cannot identify the place that the U.S. plays in prophecy until one understands the place Russia has in the war as described in Ezekiel 38 and 39
so I will post this description of the war by Dwight Pentecost and the possible outcomes as described by different authors.

Where Do the Events of Ezekiel 38-39 Fit into the Prophetic Picture?—J. Dwight PentecostThe rise of Russia in a comparatively few years from an insignificant nation to a power feared because of her avowed purpose of global dominion, whose sway has been extended over a majority of the earth’s population, whose political philosophy is rapidly dividing the world into Communist and anti-Communist camps, has given a renewed interest in and importance to the prophecy concerning Gog and Magog in the thirty-eighth and thirty-ninth chapters of Ezekiel. Consistently students of prophecy have understood that these chapters depict the invasion that sets off a global war. In the light of current events, when the populace of our nations hope for peace but expect and plan for war, it becomes a pressing question as to when the events described in those chapters will take place.It is the purpose of this study to attempt to set forth the time at which the events in Ezekiel 38and 39will transpire. We shall do this by relating parallel Scriptures to this prophecy to formulate the complete picture of these events as given by revelation. We shall confine our investigation to this one question. We shall not concern ourselves with the identification of the nations described as participants, but assume the identification held by most Bible students and ably presented by Bauman (Louis S. Bauman, Russian Events in the Light of Bible Prophecy, pp. 17-38). In brief, the powers represented in these two chapters are: Magog, which is Russia, also referred to as Rosh; Meshech and Tubal, which are ancient tribal names, as Moscow and Tobolsk; Persia, as Iran; Cush and Put, possibly as Ethiopia and Libya in North Africa, butbetter as portions of Assyria; Gomer, as Germany; Togarmah, as Turkey; Sheba and Dedan, as Arab tribes or states surrounding Palestine; Tarshish, as Spain or possibly Great Britain.Further, we shall not be primarily concerned with the events that are describedin this portion, except as they will throw light on the problem of the time of the invasion. There is general agreement among Bible students concerning the outline of events. Russia is seen to make an alliance with Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Germany, and Turkey (vv. 2, 5, 6). Because Israel seems like easy prey (v. 11), this confederation decides to invade the land for the spoil (v. 12). A protest is made at this invasion (v. 13), but it is unheeded.The extent of this invasion must be learned from parallel passages, for Ezekiel omits the progress of the invasion, but, rather, describes the destruction of the invader on the mountains of Israel (39:2–4) as the result of divine intervention through a convulsion of nature (38:20–22). As a result five-sixths of the army is destroyed (39:2) and seven months are required in disposing of the dead (39:12), and seven years in disposing of the debris (39:9–10). The scene of this destruction is said to be on the mountains of Israel (39:2–4) and the time is in “the latter years” (38:8) and “the latter days” (38:16). This destruction is a sign to the nations (38:23) and to Israel (39:21–24).General Identification of the TimeIt is obvious from the details given to us in thechapters under consideration that no invasion experienced in Israel’s history is sufficient to be the fulfillment of this prophecy. There have been invasions in the past which wrought hardship on the land and the people, but none that

answer to the details presented here. This can refer only to some future event in Israel’s experience. There are a number of considerations which support this view.First, the context in the book makes a contribution. Chapter 37deals with the restoration of the nation Israel to her land. This is pictured as a gradual process, for theprophet sees the process of bone being joined to bone, tied together with sinews, clothed with skin. It is a regathering in unbelief, for the prophet observes that there was no life in the assembled carcass (v. 8). Chapter 40carries us on to the millennial age. Thus the movements of Gog and Magog are seen, in the context, to transpire between the time of the beginning of the restoration of Israel to the land and the millennial age.Second, the specific statements in the passage give clues. Twice a reference is made in chapter 38to a time element. It is said to take place “in the latter years” (v. 8) and “in the latter days” (v. 16). This has specific reference to the latter years and days of God’s dealing with the nation Israel, which, since it is before the millennial age (Ezek 40), must place it during God’s dealing with Israel in the seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy.Third, it will be after the beginning of the restoration, for Israel is seen to be inhabiting her own land (38:11). This would indicate that it takes place after the covenant made by the “prince that shall come” of Daniel 9:27.Fourth, it will be connected with Israel’s conversion, which is obviously future, for the destruction of the invader is a sign to that nation, which opens its eyes to the Lord (39:22). Since the final removal of the nation’s blindness does not come until the second advent, this prophecy must have a definite relation tothat event.Fifth, the indication that the land will be reforested (39:10) confirms this conclusion, for Israel has always been dependent on other sources of supply for her lumber (cf. 1 Kings 5:1–10).It is concluded, then, from the passage itself, that the events herein described must take place in the future, at a time when God is again dealing with Israel as a nation.The Time in Relation to Specific EventsThe invasion described by Ezekiel has been related to nearly every major prophetic event asto its time. It is ourpurpose now to examine some of these positions in order to determine as carefully as possible just when this event will transpire.The invasion takes place prior to the rapture of the church. Such is the exposition taken by David L.Cooper, who says: “...It is utterly impossible for one to locate the fulfillment of this prediction after the Millennial Age. It cannot be placed in the beginning of the Millennium, nor at the end of the tribulation. It must, therefore, be located before the tribulation because there is no other place for it to occur since the three other suggested dates are impossible.... There will be a time between now and the beginning of the tribulation when the Jews will be dwelling in the Land in unwalled cities and will be at rest” (David L. Cooper, When Gog’s Armies Meet the Almighty, pp. 80-81).We feel that this is an impossible thesis from several considerations: First, the New Testament teaching of the imminence of the rapture makes it impossible that an event such as this must first be fulfilled.Second, the context of the prophecy itself states that this will take place “in the latter years” (v. 8) and “in the latter days” (v. 16). Since this prophecy is addressed to Israel, it must be their

years and days being referred to in the prophecy. Because Israel and the church are two distinct groups with which God is dealing, it is impossible to make Israel’s latter years apply to the latter years of the church, as it would do if this is fulfilled prior to the rapture.Third, as far as we can determine, Israel will not gain any title to the land, nor have the right to return to it, until the “prince that shall come” makes a covenant with her (Dan 9:27). Israel is said to be out of the land and Jerusalem trodden down until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luke 21:24). It would be necessary, according to this theory, to maintain either that the covenant which gives Israel a false peace was made prior to the rapture or that the times of the Gentiles end at the rapture. Such is not the presentation ofthe Word.The invasion takes place at the end of the tribulation. Louis S. Bauman, after quoting Daniel 11:44–45, writes: “...Who is the foe he so furiously meets and so ferociously destroys? It cannot be Israel, for Israel is not to be destroyed and utterly swept away. Moreover, God would never ‘call a sword’ to destroy and ‘utterly sweep away’ Israel. The foe is evidently to come ‘out of the east and out of the north’—a description not of the little strip ofland known as Palestine, but a vast confederacy of nations ‘out of the east and out of the north.’ If Israel is not the foe whose activities will suddenly infuriate the Antichrist, then, pray, who may that foe be? The revelation of God reveals only one possibility—Gog and his allied hordes, for they are they who are to if all upon the mountains of Israel’ (Ezek 39:4), and to be utterly swept away into ‘the realms of Pluto’“(Bauman, op. cit., pp. 174-75). There are many Bible students who join Bauman in this interpretation of the time element. However, there seem to be difficulties in this position which makes it impossible to accept it.First, the passage in Ezekiel does not mention a battle. The destruction there is at the hand of the Lord throughthe convulsion of nature (38:20–23). Even though the sword of verse 21should be proved to be a nation, yet the Lord is seen to be the agent in this destruction rather than a destruction through a war. In the conflagration of Armageddon there is a great battle fought in which the King of kings emerges as the victor.Second, in Ezekiel the invasion is by the king of the north with his allies, which are limited in number. In Zechariah 14and Revelation 19all the nations of the earth are seen to be gathered together for the conflagration.Third, in Ezekiel the destruction takes place on the mountains of Israel (39:2–4). The events of Armageddon are said to take place at Jerusalem (Zech 12:2; 14:2), at the valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:12) and Edom (Isa 63:1).Fourth, in Ezekiel Israel is said to be dwelling in herland in peace and safety (38:11). We know from Revelation 12:14–17that Israel is not going to dwell in the land in peace and safety during the latter half of the seventieth week, but will be the special target of Satan’s attack.Thus we conclude that the invasion cannot be connected with the events of Zechariah 14and Revelation 19.The invasion takes place at the beginning of the millennium. This view is presented by Arno C. Gaebelein, who says:“At what time does this invasion take place? We find the answer in the text. The statement is made in verse eight that Gog and Magog and the other nations with them invade the land ‘that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people;’ they come ‘against the mountains of Israel....’ In verse eleven the evil purpose of the invader is made

known.... From all this we learn that the invasion takes place at the time when the Lord has brought back His people and resumed His relationship withthe remnant of Israel. The invasion will happen some time after the beastly empire with its beasthead...and the false prophet, the personal Antichrist...have been dealt with in judgment.... Micah tells us: ‘And this man (Christ) shall be the peace when the Assyrian shall come into the land’ (verse 5). All this confirms the story of Ezekiel xxxviii ” (Arno C. Gaebelein, The Prophet Ezekiel, pp. 252-55).While the Scriptures cited may seem to prove the thesis stated above, we believe that there are argumentswhich prove this is an impossible explanation.First, Ezekiel tells us that the land will be defiled by reason of the dead bodies for seven months (39:12). Such a picture seems impossible in view of the cleansing to be effected by the return of the Messiah.Second, in Jeremiah 25:32–33it is stated that the Lord will destroy all the wicked of the earth at His return. This is further amplified in Revelation 19:15–18. It seems impossible to think of such a horde as described in Ezekiel escaping the destruction at His coming to rise up against Himshortly.Third, in Matthew 25:31–46all Gentiles are brought before the Judge to determine who will enter the millennium. Since no unsaved person, whether Jew or Gentile, will enter that kingdom, it is impossible to think of such an apostasy of saved persons who would fulfill the prophecy of Ezekiel.Fourth, Isaiah 9:4–5predicts the destruction of all weapons of war after the millennium begins. Where would the armies of the king of the north secure their armament in the light of Isaiah’s prediction?Fifth, Isaiah 2:1–4states that wars will cease with the advent of Christ and the institution of the millennium.Sixth, according to Revelation 20:1–3, Satan will be bound at the beginning of the millenniumand thus would not be operative to generate such a movement against Israel.Seventh, the proponents of this theory have failed to see that God is beginning to deal with the nation Israel at the beginning of the seventieth week after the translation of thechurch. That nation is being brought back into her land (Ezek 38:11; 37:1–28) although in unbelief, and to prepare that nation through discipline for the coming Messiah. Thus Micah may rightly say that “this man [Christ] shall be the peace, when theAssyrian shall come into our land” (5:5), even though these events take place before the second advent of Christ. Micah’s prophecy does not make the visible presence of Christ necessary, but does promise His protection.The invasion takes place at the end of the millennium. Those who hold to this position contend that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel and that of Revelation 20:8are the same. This seems to be an impossibility from the following considerations:First, Ezekiel mentions only a northern coalition as being engaged in the invasion. In Revelation all the nations of the earth are gathered together.Second, in Ezekiel there is no specific mention made of the instrumentality of Satan, nor of his being bound a thousand years prior to this invasion, while both things are emphasizedin the Revelation account.

Third, the context in Ezekiel shows that this invasion is before the institution of the millennium. In Revelation the millennium has been in existence for a thousand years.Fourth, in Ezekiel the bodies of the slain require the labor of seven months to dispose of the dead (39:12). In Revelation 20:9the slain are said to be “devoured” by fire, so that no disposal is necessary.Fifth, in Ezekiel the invasion is seen to be followed by the millennium (ch. 40–48). In Revelation this movement is followed by the new heaven and the new earth. Certainly the new earth could not conceivably be corrupted by unburied corpses for seven months. Thus, these considerations make it impossible to accept this theory as to the time of the invasion.The invasion takes place at the middle of the seventieth week. We should like to present several considerations which may indicate that it is the invasion of the land of Palestine by the king of the north which setsoff the Satanic attack against the people with whom God is dealing, the nation Israel, as recorded in Revelation 12:14–17.First, the invasion takes place at a time when Israel is dwelling in her own land (Ezek 38:8). There is no indication that Israel will be entitled to occupy her own land until the time of the covenant by the “prince that shall come” of Daniel 9:27. Evidently that one, because of the authority invested in him as the head of the revived Roman Empire, seeks to settle the Arab-Israeli dispute by giving Israel the right to occupy the land. The invasion will come sometime after this covenant is confirmed.Second, the invasion takes place when Israel is dwelling in peace in the land (Ezek 38:11). Those who believe that this invasion takes place at the beginning of the millennium interpret this peace as the peace promised by the Messiah. There is nothing in the text here to indicate that this is the true Messianic peace. It rather seems to be the false peace that has been guaranteed Israel by the covenant, which iscalled “your agreement with hell” in Isaiah 28:18. Israel, as yet, is in unbelief for the nation will not be a believing nation until after the second advent of Christ. This regathering is described in Ezekiel 37and the lifeless condition of the nation is clearly indicated in verse 8. Thus we conclude from these considerations that Israel is being brought back into the land with a view to her discipline for preparation for her Messiah. Israel could not be said to be at peace at the end of the tribulation period, for the land has been destroyed by invasion (Zech 14:1–3) and the people scattered (Zech 13:8–9). Yet, the nation could be dwelling in relative peace in the land in the first half of the week. Cooper says: “It isaltogether possible that the first judgments of the tribulation may not affect Palestine so asto destroy the beauty and prosperity of the land” (David L. Cooper, op. cit., p. 84).Third, Ezekiel uses two expressions which may give an indication as to the time of this invasion. In verse 8the invasion is said to be in the “latter years” and inverse 16in the “latter days” of Israel’s history. This, of course, can have no reference to the “latter days” of the church age, for God is dealing with Israel in His divine economy at this time.There are several similar expressions used which may need clarification at this point. The term last dayis an expression which is related to the resurrection and judgment program (John 6:39–40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48). The term last daysis related to the time of Israel’s salvation, glorification, and blessing in the kingdom age (Isa 2:2–4; Micah 4:1–7). The term latter daysor latter yearsis related to the time prior to the “last days” or the millennial age, which would be the tribulation period. In Deuteronomy 4:27Moses predicts a scattering because of unfaithfulness but promises a restoration. In verse 30he says: “When thou art in tribulation, and

all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days....” Here the “latter days” are linked with tribulation. In Daniel 2:28the prophet reveals “what shall be in the latter days” and then carries the king down to the final form of Gentile world power in the seventieth week. Again in Daniel 8:19, 23in discussing the “indignation” theprophet speaks of the “latter time of their kingdom.” Also in Daniel 10:14the term latter daysis used in reference to the events preceding the millennial age.It is concluded, then, since Ezekiel uses these expressions, that the events described by that prophet must take place withinthe seventieth week. Daniel 11:40seems to have reference to the same period, for the prophet places these events “at the time of the end.” This expression seems to separate the event from “the end” itself.Fourth, many of our commentators interpretDaniel 11:41with reference to the occupation of the land of Palestine by the Beast. The event which causes the Beast to move in is the invasion of Palestine from the north by the king of the north (Dan 11:40). The covenant by this power in Daniel 9:27has evidently guaranteed Israel an inviolate right to the land. Some event must be necessary to cause the Beast to abrogate his covenant. Since the covenant is said to be broken in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) and the invasion from the north is seen to be the cause of the breaking of the covenant (Dan 11:41), we may conclude that this invasion takes place in the middle of the week.Fifth, it is recognized that the events of the last half of the week are occasioned by the casting of Satan out ofheaven (Rev 12:7–13). Evidently Satan’s first act in opposition to Israel is to move the king of the north to undertake this invasion. This is the beginning of a great campaign which begins in the middle of the week, and is continued until the destruction of Gentile powers at the return of the Lord. We might note here that the word translated “battle” in Revelation 16:14, according to Thayer’s lexicon, would better be translated “campaign,” for this signifies the movements of armies and is in contrast to an isolated battle. Our observation, then, is that God views all these movements of the armies as one great campaign which will be terminated by their destruction at the return of Christ. The campaign, if our interpretation be correct, was waged over a three-and-a-half-year period.Sixth, in Isaiah 30:31–33; 31:8–9; and Micah 5:5thisinvader from the north is called “the Assyrian.” As Assyria was a rod in the hand of the Lord previously, to punish Israel for her iniquity, so the Lord willtake up a rod again for the same purpose, and this coming scourge will bear the same name because of the identity of His mission, to chasten Israel. Isaiah 28:18speaks of the “covenant with death” and the “agreement with hell” for which God will punish Israel. This must refer to the covenant of Daniel 9:27, when Israel seeks peace from the hands of men rather than from the hand of the Lord. For this covenant, Isaiah says they will be punished “when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, thenye shall be trodden down by it.” This scourge could hardly be the occupation by the Beast, for he was a party to the covenant, but must refer to the invasion by the “Assyrian” who will be used by the Lord to chasten Israel. The destruction of the Assyrian in the passages referred to seems to parallel the destruction of the armies of Gog in Ezekiel 38–39, and they are considered parallel references. God could not punish Israel for this false covenant until after the covenant had been made. This seems to give further cause to believe that the invasion takes place in the middle of the week.Seventh, in Revelation 7:4–17we have a description of a multitude of Jews and of Gentiles who are saved during the tribulation period. One wonders, in the face of the intense persecution

against any believer, how any come to a knowledge of God in that time. In Ezekiel 38:23we find that the destruction of the armies of Gog is used as a sign to the nations and in 39:21reference is made to this same fact again. In 39:22the same event is a great sign to Israel. Since the Book of Revelation pictures many people saved during the tribulation, and not just at the end of it, and since this event of Ezekiel’s prophecy is used as a sign to bring many to the Lord, thisevent must have taken place before the end of the tribulation, and rather at some time within that period. We believe that this destruction, so obviously by the hand of the Lord, is an event used by Him to remove some of the blindness to bring many to a knowledge of the Lord.BSac—V114 #456—Oct 57—345Eighth, in Revelation 13:7the Beast is pictured as having a world-wide power. This is true at the time of his manifestation as a world ruler in the middle of the tribulation. The question arises: “How could the Beast have world-wide power if the power of the northern confederation has not been broken?” The fact that the Beast is in authority over the earth at the middle of the week lends support to the thesis that the king of the north has been destroyed.The result of this destruction would produce chaos in world conditions which would bring the nations together, as we see in Psalm 2, at which time the government is formed over which the Beast is the head. Since there could be no unity of nations as long as the king of the north is operative, this unity must be brought about after his destruction.Ninth, in Revelation 19:20we are told that the Lord will deal specifically with the Beast and the false prophet at His coming. All through the Old Testamentand continuing through the New there appear three personages who will play a part in the final drama of the “times of the Gentiles,” namely, the Beast, the false prophet, and the king of the north or the Assyrian. Each of these must be dealt with beforethe Lord can manifest His world-wide authority. There must be a reason why Revelation 19:20records only the destruction of the two mentioned. It cannot be, as previously shown, that the third continues until after the millennium begins. It cannot be that the third escapes judgment. It must be, as is our contention, that he and his armies have already been dealt with on a previous occasion.Tenth, the chronology of several important passages dealing with these events seems to support the thesis. In Isaiah 30and 31we have a description of the destruction of the king of the north. This is followed in chapters 33and 34with the destruction of all the nations, and then follows a description of the millennium in chapter 35. In the Book of Joel wefind the same chronology. In chapter 2there to the description of the invasion by the northern army (v. 20), followed by a description of the destruction of the nations in chapter 3, and then the millennium is described in 3:17–21.BSac—V114 #456—Oct 57—346In both of these passages the chronology is the same. The armies of the north are destroyed at a separate time, in a distinct movement, prior to the destruction of the armies of the nations, which will be followed by the millennium. We believe the suggested answer to the time of the events in Ezekiel 38and 39as contained in this paper is the only answer consistent with the chronology of these extended passages.ConclusionConsideration of the objections to making the events take place either at the end or beginning of the millennium, or at the end of the tribulation, or prior to the rapture, and our reasons for locating this prophecy in the middle of the week seem sufficient to establish the thesis that

Ezekiel 38and 39will be fulfilled in the middle of the tribulation period. Such a view would lead us to this chronology of events, briefly stated: (1) Israel makes a false covenant with the Beast and occupies her land in a false security (Dan 9:27; Ezek 38:8, 11). (2) Because of a desire for spoil at the expense oi an easy prey, the king of the north, satanically motivated, invades Palestine (Ezek 38:11; Joel 2:1–21; Isa 10:12; 30:31–33; 31:8–9). (3) The Beast breaks his covenant with Israel and moves into the land (Dan 11:41–45). (4) The king of the north is destroyed on the mountains of Israel (Ezek 39:1–4). (5) The land of Palestine is occupied by the armies of the Beast (Dan 11:45). (6) At this time the great coalition of nations takes place that forms one government under the Beast (Ps 2:1–3; Rev 13:7). (7) The kings of the East are brought in against the armies of the Beast (Rev 16:12), evidently as a result of the dissolution of the government of Gog. (8) When the nations of the earth are gathered together around Jerusalem (Zech 14:1–3) and the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:2), the Lord returns to destroy all Gentile world powers so that He might rule the nations Himself. This is further described in Zechariah 12:1–9; 14:1–4; Isaiah 33:1—34:17; 63:1–6; 66:15–16; Jeremiah 25:27–33; Revelation 20:7–10.


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It is very important to place where Babylon is since it concerns God's people the Jews with a very specific warning.
This can only apply to the Jews since the church is not present for the tribulation hour, which is the Time of Jacob's trouble.

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Chapter 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

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You will not see the words America or the U.S. specifically mentioned in the Bible, only the circumstantial evidence

I can give you a head start though, Israel is to be given the land by the Lord from the Nile to the River Euphrates river, since Babylon is
described as becoming like Sodom and Gomorrah and no person or animal will reside in it as described in Revelation 18 Jeremiah 50
Jeremiah 51; can any of that land contained within that perimeter be considered or must you look elsewhere for Babylon. No where else in the world can be considered except where the Jewish people are, And the Jewish people are in the U.S. by the millions.
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No where else in the world can be considered except where the Jew is. And the Jew is in the U.S. by the millions.
though I KNOW this was not intended but as I was reading this line above it felt nearly like a hisssss, perhaps I am too sensitive, but I would of preffered to see something such as "Jewish people" rather than "the Jew" ...... and please forgive my nit picking


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Sorry Len, I rushed my comment because someone came home and I did not want to lose what I had written.
What about the Jewish people leaving the nations they are currently in and going back to Israel? Isn't this in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Psalms? With so much Anti-Semitism around the globe, and seriously increasing levels here in the USA, you believe they will stay here? Didn't God say he would use the Gentiles to send the Jews back to their homeland?

Also, if you know anything about Russia, you know that NEVER in the history of that nation have they attacked anyone first, nor outside their country. Ever. They prefer to fight on their own terrain, and for good reason. I'm not saying they wouldn't attack a nation with Putin in charge, but I do not find this to be Biblical in the least and it's certainly far from anything they have historically done. One thing Russia knows quite well is attacking the USA directly will lead to mutual destruction. Even if they hit us with an EMP, we have enough submarines with nuclear capabilities to destroy them from the seas. It would not be a wise decision on their part, nor something they would likely even attempt. Their population is less than half of ours and their heaviest population centers could be entirely wiped out with a single nuke. It simply would not make sense unless the goal was to wipe themselves from the map as well. Outside of the Bible mentioning them attacking Israel, there is no other very clear mention of them attacking anyone else first and history proves they have not done so. Ever.

Again, I am not dogmatic about the timing of the Ezekiel War, but the burning of the weapons for fuel into the Millennium makes no sense to me. I see the point the author is making, but disagree with some aspects of it. Why is fuel needed at all when the Lord will be here on earth? To me, that is like saying our God needs this. He does not. So the timing, in my mind, could be anytime. I just cannot fathom that during the Millennium the weapons will be needed for burning. If it is a time of restoration, how will the burning of metals (I understand the weapons such as the Israeli tanks are burnable) be of use to the environment?

As for Babylon - There are so many things wrong with why you perceive America to be Babylon that I could spend the morning on this. First of all, you are assuming the Jewish population that is here today will remain in the future. Second, you are assuming our dollar is still the international reserve, which I see no way that it will be. Third, the people clearly state in Rev 18:18 that there is no other city such as this one. What city in America is remotely close to a city such as Abu Dhabi? New York City isn't even in the top ten currently for technology or beauty. It has the most millionaires, per Google, but ONLY because of the high cost of living and the accompanying higher salaries paid there. It has barely been in in the top ten wealthiest cities and was only 12th on the list in 2018. Compare that though to the wealth of Abu Dhabi. 420,000 legal citizens worth an average of $17 million each. Look it up on Google.

New York City is compromised, currently, of 13% Jews. That number has steadily decreased and is still doing so, entirely because of anti-Semitism. How can a nation with a declining Jewish population, over $20 Trillion in debt, in the midst of various trade wars and not near where the original Babylon was, ever be considered as the Babylon mentioned in the Bible? Simple - It can't. You are also forgetting that America is an importing nation. Where are we the leading exports of anything mentioned in Revelation? We aren't. We are absolutely not the center of commerce and again, who are the people that would weep if we were exterminated today? Well over 2/3 of the world would celebrate. You are trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole. It clearly does not fit. Nothing in Revelation 18 lines up with America. What kings of the earth would lament us burning? Maybe the UK? Who else? Certainly not many!!!! There simply is nothing that states we are Babylon. In fact, in my personal opinion, only Pride would make any American believe this is the Babylon mentioned in the Bible. We just don't fit the necessary qualifications in any way, shape or form. Babylon will be the jewel of the world's eye. The absolute center of commerce. We are neither of those and are going downhill, the wrong direction for us to even be considered.


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I've been away for a bit and am trying to catch up. Where does the Bible say America is Babylon? I disagree with that 100%. America is dangerously close to no longer being a power to be reckoned with. Other nations have been trying for several years to get the dollar taken away as the reserve currency. I suspect it will be at some point. The OWG isn't going to use the dollar as their currency. America has one legit ally we can count on. If we fell today, who would weep? The UK, maybe Japan. Most other nations would be thrilled. Outside of Israel, the entire ME would love to see us fall. Same for Central and South America along with Africa.

I like your thoughts on other things, but us being the Babylon referred to in the Bible isn't accurate. I'm also not a believe the Gog/Magog war happens at the mid-point of the Trib. I'm open to suggestions on that as I'm not dogmatic about it. I'm pretty dogmatic that we aren't Babylon though.
Obviously, I disagree with Ohioan.
I believe those who think the US is Babylon have misunderstood the attack from "the North"
and incorrectly divided the scriptures in Jeremiah 50 and 51.
But I have decided it is fruitless to argue the point, as his mind is made up.

I don't think it is a good idea to be too dogmatic about things to come,
anyway, other than what is plainly said in the Scriptures.


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There is a big difference between I suspect or surmise which means to to believe to be guilty on little or no evidence.

I could do something like that if I wished but I did not.

One of the most prolific prophecy writers, J Dwight Pentecost, has presented the scenario of a mid tribulation invasion of Israel.

All other invasions have been discounted as far as different times for that invasion to have taken place, the different reasons being presented in his book "Things to Come" which I have presented a few posts up.

Ezekiel 38and 39will be fulfilled in the middle of the tribulation period. Such a view would lead us to this chronology of events, briefly stated: (1) Israel makes a false covenant with the Beast and occupies her land in a false security (Dan 9:27; Ezek 38:8, 11). (2) Because of a desire for spoil at the expense oi an easy prey, the king of the north, satanically motivated, invades Palestine (Ezek 38:11; Joel 2:1–21; Isa 10:12; 30:31–33; 31:8–9). (3) The Beast breaks his covenant with Israel and moves into the land (Dan 11:41–45). (4) The king of the north is destroyed on the mountains of Israel (Ezek 39:1–4). (5) The land of Palestine is occupied by the armies of the Beast (Dan 11:45). (6) At this time the great coalition of nations takes place that forms one government under the Beast (Ps 2:1–3; Rev 13:7). (7) The kings of the East are brought in against the armies of the Beast (Rev 16:12), evidently as a result of the dissolution of the government of Gog. (8) When the nations of the earth are gathered together around Jerusalem (Zech 14:1–3) and the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:2), the Lord returns to destroy all Gentile world powers so that He might rule the nations Himself. This is further described in Zechariah 12:1–9; 14:1–4; Isaiah 33:1—34:17; 63:1–6; 66:15–16; Jeremiah 25:27–33; Revelation 20:7–10.

So the problem presents itself, why doesn't America provide Israel help.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 along with Revelation 18 provide the answers.

If you think that it does not matter, then the warning to God's chosen people to come out of Babylon has no validity.


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Dr. Andy Woods (who was an actual student of Pentecost among others at DTS) is going through Revelation. This past Sunday he began to make what I believe is a very strong case that Babylon in Revelation is... actual Babylon rebuilt. He does this by looking at the totality of scripture starting in Genesis and studying it forward from there. Couldn't do all that in one week, so it'll be continued. Transcript, etc is at slbc.org.


Well-Known Member
You are correct. My brain is always looking for answers to something we cannot possibly know ahead of time. If I were the AC, I'd want our military and our technology kept intact. When you sit and think about it, the AC would have to be crazy to not want that. It's a turn-key military if he takes it over. If we are totally destroyed, where else would the military come from to do what he will do? I guess if he has control over everything, then the militaries would all report to, and serve, his purpose. Still though, our military is probably pretty valuable to him. The question for me is how does he break the world up into regions without a rallying cry from the people to do so? Maybe a really good speech? I've always leaned towards another world war being required to get people to truly support this idea. A very short, yet very deadly, war.
A rallying cry from the people against breaking up the nations??? Really??? Where is the rallying cry from the people against abortion, global warming fallacies, and other political stuff going on here in our nation??? There will be no "rallying cries". The liberals in office will ramrod the changes through with the AC without any concern for what the people think................ and most of the people will go along with it all anyway. It's just another jump from socialism, when you think about it. The majority of our nation has already been brainwashed past the point of no return, I think. And, yes, I imagine the AC will give a pretty darned good speech..........just as good as the serpent in the garden.