Who stole my Mansion?

[Salluz]

The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven exactly as the Bible says in Revelation 21:2. The question being raised "Is the New Jerusalem the destination for the Body of Christ"? If the New Jerusalem is purposed for Israel exclusively, then wouldn't claiming it for "the church" be a subtle form of replacement theology?


What verse in scripture says the New Jerusalem is the "destination of the Church"? All references to "we" and "us" from my perspective in Revelation are John writing to Israel. Although many recent teachers and preachers do believe and teach otherwise. They might be wrong. In the following scripture, even those who were with Jesus daily didn't "understand" everything (so it's quite possible some of our "great theologians" missed the boat on some things and "didn't understand" as well):

And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. - Luke 18:34

These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. - John 12:16


I'm very leary as well... so were the Pharisees when Jesus "clarified" scripture to them. In Acts 17:11, we're encouraged to:

"... received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" - Acts 17:11

For example, when I read in Mark 18:18 (Jesus spoke these words to the eleven right before He ascended back into heaven):

"... and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; ..." - Mark 18:18

In my mind, I can square this reference with the 144,000 in Revelation, when the seas are poisoned (Rev 8:11)... these 144,000 can drink and not be hurt... where it would be toxic to anyone else. You and I can't drink poison today and not be hurt by it. There are so many things in the 4 Gospels that don't make sense to me in this current age. Although I know and believe that the Bible is 100% accurate. So it's not that the Bible is wrong, it can't be, the Bible is perfect! Therefore, it must be my grasp of Biblical understanding that has to be wrong.

So the OP is along those lines... can I square the New Jerusalem and it's actual future inhabitants? Does God deal with the Israel and the Body of Christ differently? If not, then why doesn't Israel get raptured too along with the Body of Christ? If Israel isn't included in our "rapture", then is it ok for the Body of Christ to not be included in their "New Jerusalem".

The correct answers to these questions are not a salvation issue. So if "we" get the answer wrong, it's ok. However, I believe that God desires for us to understand His Word fully. Will any of us ever achieve that with 100% accuracy this side of heaven? That's rhetorical... However, we're encouraged to run this race to win. Not to settle for last place in the race. Unfortunately (fortunately?), a perpetual 110% effort with OCD icing on the cake is etched into my DNA. I'll turn over every loose stone to see what's under it. I want to know and understand every single thing about the Bible before my time is up here. I'm not too leary to venture off the path and consider "something new", especially if I can use scripture to prove it right or wrong. I'm an engineer. I learn more when something's broken and I have to get it fixed... than when nothing ever jumps the tracks to cause me to laser focus and sharpen my knowledge.

Rev. 21:9-10 says that the New Jerusalem is home to the bride of Christ

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

The question then becomes who is the bride of Christ?

Paul says to the believers in Corinth (a gentile city, not a Jewish city)

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. (2 Corinthians 11:2)

And in Ephesians 5 we are told this about marriage:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Any time a bride for Christ is mentioned, it is talking about the Church in the same way the old testament saints were referred to as the bride of the Father.

 

[ragamuffin]

Rev. 21:9-10 says that the New Jerusalem is home to the bride of Christ

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. The term "bride of Christ" is never found anywhere in the Bible, and it's not in this verse either. The word "home" isn't mentioned either. This verse very clearly says that "the bride" is the "Holy City, Jerusalem".

The question then becomes who is the bride of Christ?

I agree, that's the million dollar question! And once that's understood and answered, everything becomes super clear!

Searching the Bible for the term "bride" reveals 14 hits (Note that Paul never mentions BRIDE not even once!):

Paul refers to the "Body of Christ" four times, but never "bride":

In Matthew 25, the "bridegroom" is mentioned several times.
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
- Matthew 25:1-10

In Matthew 25:13 it tells us who the bridegroom is... It's the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
- Matthew 25:13

In John chapter 3, we're told of another character in this puzzle... "the friend of the bridegroom". This is John the Baptist. In today's wedding nomenclature this could be considered the bridegroom's "best man".
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
- John 3:29

In this verse we're introduced to another party of this future wedding:
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
- Matthew 9:15

Who are these "children of the bridechamber"? They are the disciples in this context. Why are they not called the "bride" here in scripture? These "children" are not the Body of Christ either. That program hasn't come into existence yet.

Did any of the prophets give us a hint about these events?
1 For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest,
Until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness,
And the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness,
And all kings thy glory:
And thou shalt be called by a new name,
Which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD,
And a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken;
Neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate:
But thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah,
And thy land Beulah:
For the LORD delighteth in thee,
And thy land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin,
So shall thy sons marry thee:
And as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride,
So shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem,
Which shall never hold their peace day nor night:
Ye that make mention of the LORD,
Keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest,
Till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
- Isaiah 62:4-7

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD:
And thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
- Isaiah 62:12

The prophet Isaiah clearly has Jerusalem in focus here! It is indeed interesting that when a bride marries... she gets a NEW name!

John the Apostle wrote the following in regard to new names:
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
- Revelation 3:12

"Pillar in the temple" implies that God will never again push His people out of the land. This "overcometh" reference is towards Israel, not the Body of Christ... we have nothing to overcome... it's all been settled for us already.

The prophet Jeremiah wrote:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
- Jeremiah 31:31

When is this new covenant established with Israel? It's right after the Great White Throne judgement, which is after the 1000 year millennium. And what happens then? The MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB noted in Revelation 19:7 will take place... where the BRIDE is presented as described in Revelation 21:9-10. That's what my Bible says!

If you're interested in listening to a short (~30 minutes) Q&A on this topic... search for "Are We The Bride of Christ or Body of Christ? by Truth Time Radio". Trey does an excellent job of navigating logically through these Bride of Christ scriptures!

Paul says to the believers in Corinth (a gentile city, not a Jewish city)

I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. (2 Corinthians 11:2)

And in Ephesians 5 we are told this about marriage:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Any time a bride for Christ is mentioned, it is talking about the Church in the same way the old testament saints were referred to as the bride of the Father.

"Bride" is not written anywhere above... these verses use the husband/wife relationship as a metaphor. But it doesn't cement that the "Body of Christ" is one-and-the same as the "Bride of Christ".

Yes, Corinth was not located in Israel, but it wasn't necessarily exclusively a gentile city either... there were scattered Jews present in Corinth, as evidenced by Paul's writings to the Corinthians:

Is the Church at Corinth a Primarily Jewish Congregation in the Age of Grace?​

Reference:	Argument:
1 Cor 1:12	Paul refers to Jewish preachers
1 Cor 1:14	Crispus is clearly Jewish (Acts 18:8), Gaius likely so
1 Cor 4:3	Paul is being examined as an apostle. A gentile wouldn't do so.
1 Cor 5:1	Paul compares them to gentiles...an odd illustration if they are gentiles.
1 Cor 5:6-8	Paul uses Jewish illustrations
1 Cor 6:1	Jews typically had their own law courts in the synagogue, but gentiles wouldn't have known what Paul was talking about. Their custom was the civil court. Were these Jews taking on Gentile practices?
1 Cor 6:12	Why would Paul need to argue lawful food with a gentile?
1 Cor 7:18-20	With circumcision as a discussion, there was clearly a large Jewish populace, at minimum
1 Cor 8:1	Only Jews would have these scruples

 

[Trev]

It sounds like we will be living separately from Jesus. He on earth with Israel, and we, as the Church, in Heaven...

Please tell me that we are NOT going to be separated from Jesus...

He will never leave you nor forsake you. Hebrews 13 5 states it clearly, Praise God.

 

[Burnboss]

What Happens When You Die? :: by Dr. David R. Reagan

by RR@admin2 Category:David Reagan, General Articles


The Unbelievably Amazing Destiny Of The Church :: by Jack Kelley

by RR@admin2 Category:General Articles, Jack Kelley


Both Dr. David Reagan and the late Jack Kelly hold and believe we are called the Bride of Christ, and both give good study to what happens when we die and the destiny of the Church.


Both articles can be found along with others on the main RR page under Feature Writers.

Even though the word Rapture is not found in the bible, I hold and believe that one day Jesus will call and take those who believe away from this world. We call it the rapture.
The bible may not spell out in direct words that we who believe are named the Bride, but I have to agree with these two writers and well as many more who with sound doctrine believe we are the bride.

Well back into the woods.

 

[katt]

Question...do we quit being the bride of christ when we die?..is the bride of christ the people who are alive at the time of the rapture?..

 

[ragamuffin]

What Happens When You Die? :: by Dr. David R. Reagan

The Unbelievably Amazing Destiny Of The Church :: by Jack Kelley

The bible may not spell out in direct words that we who believe are named the Bride, but I have to agree with these two writers and well as many more who with sound doctrine believe we are the bride.

It's interesting you mention these two men. Dr. David Reagan, who I have met and have had the pleasure to hear him teach live on several occasions. Jack Kelley, who I was Blessed to interact with by mail a few times. These two men were huge in my spiritual development at certain points in time. But, they can be wrong in some of their Biblical understanding. As a matter of fact, it was one of Jack Kelley's articles that sent me searching the Biblical text for the "real" truth. You see Jack published an article on healing in the summer of 2015, in the fall of the same year Jack was sick and died. That caused me to pause and reset.

----------

Why Prayers For Healing Fail, Part 1 - Jack Kelley

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
- Ephesians 4:11-14

The two key words in this Biblical text are important... "gave" is past tense. This happened in the past, the text doesn't say "gives" today. The "Till" is a time based word... they key in understanding is nailing when that timing happens!

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
- 1 Corinthians 13:8-12

This scripture says, that until the Bible text is fully complete "that which is perfect is come" (glass darkly)... God will use these gifts to edify the body in the interim. However, once the Word is complete (glass clearly), these gifts will fail, cease, vanish ("that which in part shall be done away").

It was very comforting to me to know that I didn't miss something in not being able to heal my wife before she died... and I can now explain why Jack Kelley, who I highly respect, missed the boat on this issue and wasn't able to heal himself. Paul could heal early in his ministry, but later on he could not - Paul and his Healing throughout the Bible (chronologically).

----------

The Nature of Hell - Dr. David Reagan

Dr. Reagan states in this article under the section subtitled "The Duration of Hell":

How long will the unrighteous be tormented in Hell? The traditional view holds that Hell is a place of eternal, conscious torment. According to this view, a person who winds up in Hell is doomed to a never-ending existence of excruciating pain and suffering. Hell is a place of no escape and no hope.

Another point of view — the one I hold — takes the position that immortality is conditional, depending upon one's acceptance of Christ. I believe the Bible teaches the unrighteous will be resurrected, judged, punished in Hell for a period of time proportional to their sins, and then suffer destruction (the death of body and soul).​

Let's see what the Bible says on this topic:

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
- Jude 1:7

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites.
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
- Isaiah 33:14

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
- Matthew 18:8

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
- Matthew 25:41

24 And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
For their worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
- Isaiah 66:24

Note that in Mark 9, Isaiah 66 is quoted and a verse is repeated 3 times for clarity... some Bible versions say this is a typo... NASB, NIV, etc.... however, I disagree, the Bible is repeating this clearly for emphasis so that it can't be mistaken! Did the Lord not ask Peter the same question 3 times? Don't miss it! Emphasis!

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
- Mark 9:43-48

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
- Revelation 14:11

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
- Revelation 20:10

The Bible leaves no doubt that Dr. David Reagan is incorrect on this particular topic "The Duration of Hell". Dr. Reagan believes in Annihilationism. How does he miss this? His definition of eternal and forever are different than how those words are defined in the dictionary. I believe he is simply mistaken. Therefore, it is possible that he could be also be wrong on the Bride of Christ issue as well.

----------

I choose to trust what the Bible says succinctly (Acts 17:11 instructs me to do that, "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"), not to blindly trust either Dr. Reagan or Jack Kelley on any topic, including the topic "Bride of the Lamb".

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
- Revelation 21:9-10

 

[ragamuffin]

Question...do we quit being the bride of christ when we die?

"We" the church in this age of Grace... are not the "Bride of Christ"... therefore, when we die we're still not the "Bride of Christ".

Is the bride of christ the people who are alive at the time of the rapture?

The Bible says the Lamb's bride is the New Jerusalem. "Believers" who are alive on earth at the time of the Rapture are not the "Bride of Christ".

 

[Salluz]

"We" the church in this age of Grace... are not the "Bride of Christ"... therefore, when we die we're still not the "Bride of Christ".


The Bible says the Lamb's bride is the New Jerusalem. "Believers" who are alive on earth at the time of the Rapture are not the "Bride of Christ".

You can't just ignore all the verses I gave you earlier in the thread saying we are the bride of Christ and then claim the "Bible doesn't say we are the bride of Christ." You're treating this conversation like you're giving us your new revelation and that every other Bible teacher is wrong. Why post in the Q+A section and not the sermons section if all you want to do is preach about your own point?

 

[ragamuffin]

You can't just ignore all the verses I gave you earlier in the thread saying we are the bride of Christ and then claim the "Bible doesn't say we are the bride of Christ." You're treating this conversation like you're giving us your new revelation and that every other Bible teacher is wrong. Why post in the Q+A section and not the sermons section if all you want to do is preach about your own point?

My apologies that I struck your nerve. Not my intention at all. I addressed your questions specifically in #22 on this Q&A thread. You did not respond. I will always use scripture to respond (which Acts 17:11 instructs us to do). I only want to change the way we "think" and "read". I consider this teaching... not preaching... and certainly not "new revelation". However, it is definitely "new understanding".

Up thread, it was mentioned that we should be leary of "new revelation"... I agree 100% with that caution. The "rapture" is not being taught today from the pulpit in so many churches. Someone who grew up in one of those churches would consider rapture teaching "new revelation" if it's the first time they ever heard it. Should that be avoided by them since "they had never heard that before", or should they dig in and prove or disprove this potential "new" theory using the Bible text?

In Jesus' day, they killed Him when he revealed to them he was the Messiah that their Torah spoke about. A year (to the day) after Jesus died on the cross, they stoned Stephen because they disagreed with him as well.

This is not a hill I need to die on. If this forum would prefer I leave... I can logoff to never return. There are way too many other places where wonderful stimulating Biblical conversation avails (I've been doing that elsewhere for over 8 years now). However, I recently returned here to check back up on where I started my in-depth journey of Bible studies to give a little back. However, if the majority of folks here prefers I be put on a cross of sorts or be stoned... I won't have to be asked twice to leave.

I can now explain and articulate the following list of growing (over 100) Bible contradictions and square them perfectly with scripture (the Bible is perfect). Can you explain these Bible contradiction issues clearly?

Bible Contradictions

FYI... I'm in my early 60's. I'm an electrical engineer that has designed flight simulator test systems, high speed communication systems, and all kinds of various hardware interface devices for various peripherals. I'm literate in many programming languages including assembly language, Java, C++, Swift, and a host of Internet communication protocols. I've volunteer taught JavaAP at my kid's high school for several years. I've designed, installed and operated audio systems since the late 1970s and over the past decade for a handful of churches (including using a sabbatical as a volunteer for five weeks at a local mega church installation of a multi-million dollar sound system). I'm a senior level engineer at a fortune 100 company for almost 40 years now. Outside of work, I have extensive audio studio experience with musical production. I've also designed and assisted several churches recently with their streaming setups. When I'm not studying the Bible, I help friends flip houses... I do mostly electrical, but can handle plumbing, wood working, HVAC, etc. I mention these things to inform you that I'm somewhat OCD on all topics in my world... most importantly the Bible. Once my engineering mind couldn't square what I was hearing taught from the pulpit, I've been on a journey to dig in and understand exactly what the Word says... versus someone else's possible misinterpretation. I still have tons to learn, and always invite an iron sharpens iron exchange. I was raised in a Catholic family, dated and married a girl who grew up in an Assembly of God church, ventured into the evangelical mega church for a few years, attended a reformed Calvinist church for a few years (I was blind... never reformed), and have now been studying online for the past 8 years with a handful of wonderful bi-vocational Bible teachers. As an engineer, I'm wrong 99% of the time, until I get it right and things square and work. I believe Thomas Edison is quoted as saying he now knows 100s of ways a light bulb won't work. I try to apply this same form of education to the Bible instead of believing blindly what comes from the pulpits or prophecy books being written these days. When the Bible is properly understood... it is an incredible beautiful work of art!

 

[Salluz]

My apologies that I struck your nerve. Not my intention at all. I addressed your questions specifically in #22 on this Q&A thread. You did not respond. I will always use scripture to respond (which Acts 17:11 instructs us to do).

My apologies for getting testy, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I provided verses that say the Church is the wife of Christ and you said that doesn't mean the Church is the bride of Christ. Are wife and bride not synonymous?

If I'm understanding your views correctly, you believe the Church is the body of Christ, but you don't believe that makes the Church the bride. You believe the bride is the New Jerusalem, and you believe the Jews will be living in the New Jerusalem instead of the Church. Is that correct?

In that case, where do you think the Church will be? Are you saying the Church never leaves heaven, or that they will live in the formerly gentile nations on Earth? And for that matter, why does Israel live in the New Jerusalem instead of the promised land (where they were promised they would live by God)? Who lives in the promised land instead of Israel?

I'd honestly rather have someone else engage with this than myself because I know arguments can rile me up easily, but no one is really responding to the thread.

And I appreciate knowing your background to get to know you as a person, but it all reads like a challenge to me to say you're more qualified than I am to know the Bible:

I can now explain and articulate the following list of growing (over 100) Bible contradictions and square them perfectly with scripture (the Bible is perfect). Can you explain these Bible contradiction issues clearly?

 

[ragamuffin]

My apologies for getting testy, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I provided verses that say the Church is the wife of Christ and you said that doesn't mean the Church is the bride of Christ. Are wife and bride not synonymous?

No worries... I do appreciate you engaging.

Here's the progression of a typical man woman relationship as it progresses:

1) "girlfriend" - you're dating and doing things together on occasion (not a wife yet)
2) "fiance" - you've proposed, it's serious, plans are being made for the big day, and life plans for after the marriage are being made as well (not a wife yet)
3) "bride" - on the marriage day, the bride is presented to the bridegroom (the bride at this point is still not the "wife" yet prior to and during the beginning of the marriage ceremony)
4) "wife" - after the marriage ceremony, the bride becomes the wife (yes, at this point in time the wife can also be referred to as the husband's bride if desired interchangeably)

To answer your question... it depends, after the marriage YES! Before the marriage... NO! Is Christ married yet?

If I'm understanding your views correctly, you believe the Church is the body of Christ, but you don't believe that makes the Church the bride. You believe the bride is the New Jerusalem, and you believe the Jews will be living in the New Jerusalem instead of the Church. Is that correct?

I believe the Bible says clearly in Revelation 21:9-10 that the "bride" of the Lamb (Christ) is the New Jerusalem. Yes, the church is the "Body of Christ". No, the "Body of Christ" and the "Bride of Christ" are not one and the same. Can you marry your own body? Yes, all believing Jews will reside in the New Jerusalem when the New Earth is created. I believe we will be able to visit the New Jerusalem at anytime... but I don't believe we (the church in this Age of Grace which ends at the Rapture) will be living in the New Jersusalem and calling it "home".

In that case, where do you think the Church will be? Are you saying the Church never leaves heaven, or that they will live in the formerly gentile nations on Earth? And for that matter, why does Israel live in the New Jerusalem instead of the promised land (where they were promised they would live by God)? Who lives in the promised land instead of Israel?

Where will the church from the Age of Grace be? The scripture says in the heavenlies for ever... although we can and will visit earth (so yes I believe we can leave heaven at anytime, I don't have scripture to prove that, but I think we'll be able to operate similarly as angels can today). The Bible really doesn't tell us a whole lot here in regard to our "home", but it does provide enough information for us to clarify our eternal destination is in the heavenlies. The New Jerusalem will be located on the New Earth... the Bible doesn't say exactly "where". The New Earth I'm assuming will consist of the "Promised Land" that Abraham was promised "for ever". So Israel will inhabit this land forever, exactly as the Bible says.

I'd honestly rather have someone else engage with this than myself because I know arguments can rile me up easily, but no one is really responding to the thread.

It's OK if nobody responds. Whenever I teach anything, I have to prepare whether anyone shows up for class or not. That benefits me tremendously. I'm assuming there are folks out there reading and pondering without responding. That's my hope, is to stimulate them to sharpen their iron and dig deeper into the word and "prove whether these things are so".

And I appreciate knowing your background to get to know you as a person, but it all reads like a challenge to me to say you're more qualified than I am to know the Bible:

Yikes... I didn't say that! Please don't put words into my mouth! I only gave my background to inform you that I love to dive deep on "everything"... the Bible especially. I believe God has authored the Bible so that it can be understood easily. It's the "smart" folks that mess things up for everyone... history repeats itself again and again. There are modern day Pharisees very much alive and well today! Satan is having a hay day with church doctrine these days (we're warned about false teachers many times in scripture)... and one of the most dangerous places to be is in church listening to what comes out of so many pulpits today. It's truly sad.

Let me paraphrase the verses you've provided earlier:

Rev. 21:9-10 - this scripture says I'll show you the bride, then John is shown the New Jersulam
(You said it says that "New Jerusalem is home to the bride of Christ" ... I don't see that stated in the English I'm reading)

2 Corinthians 11:2 - this scripture says the following in context, Paul desires for the church to be "pure"... however, verses 3 and 4 say that "we" can be tempted and distracted with bad doctrine... and therefore won't be as pure as if we were not led astray be these false teachers... Paul is using a marriage metaphor here in that he desires for us to be "pure" and not tainted with confused doctrine, I don't think he's saying the "church" is the bride of Christ. He's saying he'd like to present us fully pure with correct doctrine.
(You say "a gentile city, not a Jewish city"... I'm not sure what point you were trying to make other than possibly implying Corinth wasn't in Israel, and therefore was 100% Gentile... I put some scriptures into a table to show that Paul was teaching to "scattered Jews" and Gentiles in Corinth.)

Ephesians 5:25-33 - this portion of scripture starts actually beginning in verse 22 and is "The Believer's Marriage Relationship". Again, the marriage relationship is used as a metaphor here to explain how the "body of Christ" should interact unto the Lord... Christ is our "head"... as the husband is the "head" of the wife... the relationship is not one like a dictatorship where the "head" runs the show and commands the wife on what she is to do. But, is instead a perfect relationship where submission is presented with love and sacrifice in both directions... true love is a giving love, and it goes from the husband to the wife, and from the wife to the husband. I don't beleive these verses say the "church" is the wife... the "church" is to behave like a wife.
(You say "Any time a bride for Christ is mentioned, it is talking about the Church in the same way the old testament saints were referred to as the bride of the Father." ... I don't see the word "BRIDE" mentioned anywhere in this scripture)

Scripture to me at times in the past has been like viewing a random dot autostereogram. I looked and looked and looked and just couldn't see things clearly. Until, someone helped me adjust the way I was looking at things... and then the scriptures just jumped off the page and I could see things perfectly. Once you can see clearly, you can't unsee it. Until then, it just looks like a bunch of random dots sometimes. Satan is the author of confusion, he has the "church" in a state of tizzy, many are saved, but are mostly clueless as to what the scriptures actually say. That's where I was for a long time... I'm still learning, but things make much more sense to me now.

Did you look at the list of contradictions provided? Five years ago, I couldn't square any of those! Now I can. Not because I'm smarter than anyone else. I can do this much better now only because someone taught me some very important things in scripture. Now, I can see more clearly. When you do see this, it will make you mad that the church has so missed the mark that was intended.

I wish I was where you were at your age! I wasn't spending time on Bible forums... it took me many years of wandering before I engaged the Bible properly. You'll be miles beyond me when you reach my age! Stay thirsty! Thanks again for engaging! God Bless!

 

[ByGod'sGrace]

I always thought that the Bride of Christ was all believers since Adam. Hmm...this thread is very interesting.

 

[ByGod'sGrace]

Anyone who is saved is the Bride of Christ, to dwell with Jesus forever. We will all live in New Jerusalem on the New Earth, after the 1,000 year reign of Christ is over and Satan is defeated once and for all. Who is in New Jerusalem?

Revelation 21:27 - "...only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Edited to add: Galatians 3:26-29 says that The Church/Bride of Christ is not seen as Jews or Gentiles: "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."