Where is Meshech and Tubal?

Hidden

Well-Known Member
According to the link below, there are two views on this. The first is that Meshech is in Moscow and Tubal is in Tobolsk, both of which are in Russia.

The second view is that they are regions in Turkey.

Personally, I lean more towards the first because not only do the places sound almost the same, if you read Ezekiel 38:2, it goes something like this: "the prince of Rosh (Russia), Meshech (Western Russia), and Tubal (Eastern Russia)."

So it seems Gog is a "prince" or a leader in Russia.

I'd like to hear your views on this, RF scholars...


Source: https://www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk...ael/542-appendix-6-where-is-meshech-and-tubal
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
Here's what I have from a list of Eze 38 countries I started compiling as I read books on the topic:

Joel Rosenberg

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia and former Soviet Republics

Mark Hitchcock

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia, Central Asia, and possibly Afghanistan, Turkey

Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

John Hagee

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

Tim LaHaye

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

Jimmy DeYoung

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia, Turkey

John Walvoord

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

Jack Kelley

Magog - Russia
Meshech and Tubal - Eastern Turkey

Grant Jeffries

The land of Magog --- Russia
Meshech and Tubal --- Somewhere in Russia

Britt Gillette

Rosh = Russia
Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, and Beth-togarmah = Turkey

It appears that the majority believe that they're Russia or parts of Russia. Of course, the majority isn't always right.
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
Here's what I have from a list of Eze 38 countries I started compiling as I read books on the topic:

Joel Rosenberg

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia and former Soviet Republics

Mark Hitchcock

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia, Central Asia, and possibly Afghanistan, Turkey

Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

John Hagee

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

Tim LaHaye

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

Jimmy DeYoung

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia, Turkey

John Walvoord

Magog, Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal - Russia

Jack Kelley

Magog - Russia
Meshech and Tubal - Eastern Turkey

Grant Jeffries

The land of Magog --- Russia
Meshech and Tubal --- Somewhere in Russia

Britt Gillette

Rosh = Russia
Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, and Beth-togarmah = Turkey

It appears that the majority believe that they're Russia or parts of Russia. Of course, the majority isn't always right.

Wow, Tall Timbers. This is helpful. It's not a general consensus but it seems most are leaning towards Russia being Meshech and Tubal.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
Wow, Tall Timbers. This is helpful. It's not a general consensus but it seems most are leaning towards Russia being Meshech and Tubal.

Yes, but it also shows that there isn't absolute consensus. I've always figured that some of these folks that publish works have done their own deep research, others probably accept what they were taught at seminary/college, and others accept the research that someone else has done...

For the list of Eze 38 countries, everyone but one thinks that Libya will be in that coalition against Israel but one person says definitely not Libya. Who's right? It could be the majority or it could be that one person.

It's interesting to me that from what historical documents exist that there isn't 100% consensus on these questions, but I guess there must be holes and/or gray areas in our knowledge of past nation-states.
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
Yes, but it also shows that there isn't absolute consensus. I've always figured that some of these folks that publish works have done their own deep research, others probably accept what they were taught at seminary/college, and others accept the research that someone else has done...

It is quite a challenge to identify the ancient names of these places, and thank God that there are people who research and delve deeply into it. At least we have a general idea of where these places are.

For the list of Eze 38 countries, everyone but one thinks that Libya will be in that coalition against Israel but one person says definitely not Libya. Who's right? It could be the majority or it could be that one person.

I didn't know there's objection to Put being Libya. Most of the experts identify Put as the Arab-Berbers that have settled to the west of Egypt. In fact, I think there is a possibility the coalition would include not only Libya but other North African nations which are muslims such as Algeria, Morocco, Chad, Niger, and Tunisia.

It's hard to trace the migration of Put, the third son of Ham, but if this turned out to be the case, this coalition coming from the south west of Israel would balance out the Magog coalition coming from the northeast.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
It is quite a challenge to identify the ancient names of these places, and thank God that there are people who research and delve deeply into it. At least we have a general idea of where these places are.

I didn't know there's objection to Put being Libya. Most of the experts identify Put as the Arab-Berbers that have settled to the west of Egypt. In fact, I think there is a possibility the coalition would include not only Libya but other North African nations which are muslims such as Algeria, Morocco, Chad, Niger, and Tunisia.

It's hard to trace the migration of Put, the third son of Ham, but if this turned out to be the case, this coalition coming from the south west of Israel would balance out the Magog coalition coming from the northeast.

Fruchtenbaum is the lone voice that says "definitely not Libya". I know he's done his own very extensive research and otherwise have a lot of respect for his viewpoints... so I can't write off his thoughts on Libya even though he's pretty much standing alone.
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
Fruchtenbaum is the lone voice that says "definitely not Libya". I know he's done his own very extensive research and otherwise have a lot of respect for his viewpoints... so I can't write off his thoughts on Libya even though he's pretty much standing alone.

So I looked around and learned that Fruchtenbaum interprets Put as Somalia. Interesting. Somalia, after all, is another antagonistic, terrorist nation.

I'm loving this extra time from isolation as I'm learning lots of new things!
 
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Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
I don't recall which author it was, but someone had Sudan and possibly Ethiopia in there as well. I thought it was interesting because Russia has been heavily involved in the Sudan of late.

Mark Hitchcock Cush=Sudan
Arnold Fruchtenbaum Cush - Ethiopia
John Hagee Cush - Ethiopia
Joel Rosenberg Cush - Sudan, Ethiopia, and possibly Eritrea
Tim LaHaye Cush - Sudan
Jimmy DeYoung Cush - Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan
Jack Kelley Cush - Ethiopia
Britt Gillette Cush = Sudan
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
I like looking into ancient texts for this stuff. I agree with Rainey (Sacred Bridge) that they are in Anatolia. “The first two are Tabal and Mushki, Phrygian kingdoms of Cappadocia known from Assyrian inscriptions.” Anatolia is part of Turkey (Asia Minor and Russia)

To elaborate on their history, see below...or just move on to the next post. :)

J. Simons, op. cit., pp. 61–62, states: “Meshech and Tubal who in the Table of the Nations are both classified with the Japhethites (Gen. 10:2; 1 Chron. 1:5), are also everywhere else mentioned together (Isa. 66:19, emended after LXX; Ezek. 27:13; 32:26; 38:2–3; 39:1), in the same way as the Mushki and Tubali in Assyrian texts. The only exception is Ps. 120:5, though the absence of T[ubal] there does not sufficiently warrant an emendation of the text. The M[eschech] seem to have been closely related to the Phrygians. After the disappearance of the Hittite kingdom they are met with along the lower course of the Halys in the district of Cappadocia, later also as neighbours of ‘Quve’ in the region of the Taurus mountains, which was also the habitat of T., according to Assyrian texts another neighbor of ‘quve.’ In consequence of the expansion of the Cimmerians (Gomer) both peoples were pushed back to the south-eastern shores of the Black Sea, which accounts for their connections with Gog ‘in the uttermost parts of the north’ in Ezek. 38 and 39 [sic.] … Their metal trade (Ezek. 27:13, where the slave trade more especially concerns Javan) likewise points to a region on the Black Sea, which Herodotus later mentions as the home of ‘Moschoi and Tibarenoi.’ ”

“Gomer: According to the Table of the Nations … G. is one of the ‘sons of Japheth’ and Ezek. 38:6 mentions G. side by side with Beth-Togarmah, which in Gen. 10:3; 1 Chron. 1:6 (Togarmah) is one of the ‘sons of Gomer.’ G. is the Hebrew-Biblical name for the Indo-European people of the Cimmerians (Assyr.: Gimirri; Greek: Κιμμέριοι who toward the end of the 8th century B.C. came out of Southern Russia* (cp. ‘Crimea’), pushed by the Scythians … and invaded Asia Minor via the Caucasian mountains. They finally settled, in part at least, in the eastern half of this region, among other places near Lake Van, though in predatory expeditions they penetrated farther west and even reached the shores of the Aegean Sea. As early as the 6th century B.C. they disappear from history.

* Note that Vernadsky, Ancient Russia, Vol. I, p. 49, makes a very important point, i.e., that the changing names of an area may only indicate a partial change in the racial and/or ethnic stock of the people inhabiting these areas: “it appears that from time to time near-by ruling clans seized control of the country, and while some of the former groups emigrated, the bulk of the native population remained, only to receive an admixture of the newcomers’ blood. South Russia was first organized politically by the Cimmerians (1000–700 B.C.), then by the Scythians (700–200 B.C.) and the Sarmatians (200 B.C.–A.D. 200); the Goths (A.D. 200–370) followed, to be replaced by the Huns (A.D. 370–454). In most cases, the bulk of the native population while recognizing the political control of the newcomers clung desperately to their old homes or settled again not too far from their former abodes. In their turn, each newly arrived group added a new ethnic touch to the variety represented. Thus, above the original stock of the natives of South Russia, whom the late Nicholas Marr called Japhetides (italics mine), an ethnic superstructure of variegated nature was gradually built up, but on the whole there was a certain continuity of racial strains (italics mine).… Now it was in the region of the Kerch strait that people of Cimmerian ancestry are supposed to have remained even in the Scythian period, and the strait itself was known as the Cimmerian Bosporus.” To a very large extent, then, from Vernadsky, we might suggest that the original home of Gomer (and his offspring nations) remains very much in the same location it always had, viz., in the southern area of Russia near the Black Sea. It would appear that only the names have changed with each successive migration (invasion) wave into that area—the people remaining basically the same plus the new arrivals. Significantly, Vernadsky says that the Cimmerians “belong to the same ethnic group as the Thracians,” cf. the Table of the Nations, Gen. 10:2.

T. G. Pinches, “Rosh,” International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, op. cit., p. 2623, attempts to locate Rosh: “The identification of Rosh is not without its difficulties. Gesenius regarded it as indicating the Russians, who are mentioned in Byzantine writers of the 10th century under the name of ̔Ρῶς, Rhos. He added that they are also noticed by Ibn Fosslan (same period), under the name of Rus, as a people dwelling on the river Rha (Volga). Apart from the improbability that the dominion of Gog extended to this district, it would be needful to know what date the Rus of the Volga arrived there.” [So true!]


Bibliotheca Sacra 125 (1968).

Here is an image that I really like. Note the red Circles of Gomer, especilly the upper one, it is mentioned in Ezekiel 38/39 and you may rember a few years ago when Russia took Crimea by Force. Crimea in this map is GOmer, yes the very nation allied with Russia in the last days.
Meshech and Tubal are to the right of the red circle between the Black Sea and the Caspian sea in today's Georgia (which was part of Russia).

Gomer%252CMeshech%252C%2BTubal%2Band%2Bothers.png
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
Something shocking to me is that Fruchtenbaum also lists Germany as one of the Ezekiel 38 nations (edit because I checked, he believes Gomer is Germany. He says the full list of nations will be Russia, Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia, Germany, and Armenia)

Also in favor of Russia, Ezekiel 38:15 says

and come from your place in the remotest parts of the north--you and many peoples with you, who are all riding horses--a mighty horde, a huge army?

That's at least how my HCSB translates it.
 
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MapleLeaf

Well-Known Member
I have never heard Germany. I had just assumed they would be part of the Revived Roman Empire though I guess the Romans never did get a complete handle on those barbarians. Germanic people often seem to be in the thick of this new world order stuff. Makes me marvel how God can use anyone. Luther was German. Lots of true believers. I am the granddaughter of a literal Nazi. (Even though he hated Hitler he still fought and many would never forgive that... I have gotten abuse for being German throughout my life)
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
Germany was not a nation back then, but Sythians, Cimmerians, descendants of Gomer all migrated up though the territory that is now Germany. That's probably why.

That's interesting. I have read about that too. I've always wondered why the Revelation 20 rebellion after the millennium uses the same name Gog and Magog and even describes it as "the four corners of the earth". If Germany and Austria are involved, that would make it an even larger war, and their forces would come from the western corner.

Germany and the former Austro-Hungarian empire were the bad guys in WWI. And as if they haven't learned their lesson, they repeated the same mistake in WWII. So it isn't out of character for them to get involved and attack Israel in the Ezekiel 38 War.
 
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