When did Satan rebel?

RonJohnSilver

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
I'm asking this because I'm teaching Genesis 1-11 during the summer in my Sunday school class. I've got some thoughts, naturally, but I'd like to know what others think. Now, note that I'm not asking about future events as Satan being kicked out of Heaven as stated in Revelation. What I'm trying to pin down, as much as possible, is when did the ORIGINAL fall take place, when Lucifer took a third with him. And was there a reason in addition to the pride issue? Clearly, it would have to be before Genesis 3 when Satan tempts Eve. His fall has already occurred. The reason this is meaningful is that it ties in with the various theories regarding creation, specifically the gap theory, or the original gap theory, not the revised one. It likely comes down to the Hebrew/Aramaic text regarding formed/void/etc. but that's beyond me. So, any thoughts?
 
Ghoti Ichthus

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
The war in the heavens would have had to be after the heavens were created, so sometime between Day 1, or maybe between Day 4 (sun and moon created), and before Eve is tempted. We do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before they sinned and were evicted. We do know that Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old.
 
clouds

clouds

Well-Known Member
The "In the beginning" of (Genesis 1:1) must be speaking about the beginning of ALL creation. If one insists that this "beginning" must start on the first day described in (Genesis 1:5), then my question would be: "How do you explain away (Job 38:4-7) when created beings (angels) shouted for joy as the foundations of the earth were being laid?" The angels must have already been created before the beginning of the earth. Time, itself, may have also been created before what we humans experience as the regular passage of time defined by seconds, minutes, hours, etc. of God's created days and nights. If this is the case, then the angels would have had more than an adequate amount of time to either accept or reject God's will and position in life for each angel before the first day of Genesis.
 
B

borrowedtime

Well-Known Member
I might have to contest that the fruit was the downfall of all (humans and angels).

I don't know of a verse in Genesis that states the serpent (Satan) was fallen at that moment. What I do know is that Adam is responsible for sin entering the world (Romans 5:12) and thus death and everything came along with it (Romans 6:23).

The number one claim of Lucifer's is he will sit on a throne above God (Isaiah 14:12-14) and this was the same lie reverberated to Eve (Genesis 3:5) so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of this one event being connected.

Eve was deceived (1 Timothy 2:14), but Adam was the one who transgressed (1 Timothy 2:14; Romans 5:14) and it could very well be that this was what sealed Satan's fate (Genesis 3:15) even though we know Satan still has an audience with God (Job) and at this time stands as our accuser (Rev 12:10)
 
mattfivefour

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
I think it clear from Scripture that Clouds is correct when he says:
clouds said:
"How do you explain away (Job 38:4-7) when created beings (angels) shouted for joy as the foundations of the earth were being laid?" The angels must have already been created before the beginning of the earth.
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It is also clear that at the point Satan tempted Eve he was already hostile toward God, defaming Him by questioning His character and His word. Further, there are at least two other passages (Isaiah 14:12-16; Ezekiel 28:13-19) regarding Satan's fall that, from their respective contexts, appear to indicate this rebellion and fall must have occurred before the creation of human beings. May I also suggest that, when prayerfully considered and placed along side the other scriptures on the subject, Revelation 12:2-4 and 2 Peter 2:4 also add some light on the matter.
 
clouds

clouds

Well-Known Member
pixelpusher said:
Would Ezekiel 28 12-19 offer clues? He appears to have been in Eden in good standing at first. Perhaps the fall was just before he tempted Eve? Maybe that's when pride came up and he formed the question "Has God really said"?
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Dr. McGee has an interesting take on the Eden described in Ezekiel. He quotes (Ezekiel 28:14) "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire"

McGee explains that: "Satan was the "anointed cherub that covereth" ----that is, he protected the throne of God. This is not the Eden which was on earth, but apparently is a picture of heaven itself. Satan had access to heaven , of course."

I tend to agree with Dr. McGee's conclusion, since it also makes further sense when you consider the idea of "stones of fire" being in the midst of this Eden. Some describe this Eden as a mineral garden of jewels. (Revelation 21:19) also describes the "holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God". The later verses continue to describe all manner of precious stones for the foundations, along with transparent gold streets and pearl gates.
This might mean that Satan may have committed his sin in another dimension unrelated to earth's linear timeline.
The age of this earth is correctly described as beginning on day one of Genesis, since night and day did not exist before the Genesis creation and that is how mankind measures time.
 
RonJohnSilver

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
A further note...in Job 38:7, God asks "Where were you when I created the earth....when the morning stars sang together?" If the morning stars refers to angels, which many assert, then, at the time of creation, all of the angels were in unity. And, further, if a rebellion had taken place at some point prior, God would not have declared all of creation very good. So, from that, it seems that Satan's fall occurs after Day 7. How long after? Since Adam/Eve were by then created and since God gave them the command to multiply, I'm assuming that they did so soon after. Anyway, I'm still reading through commentaries.
 
B

borrowedtime

Well-Known Member
RonJohnSilver said:
A further note...in Job 38:7, God asks "Where were you when I created the earth....when the morning stars sang together?" If the morning stars refers to angels, which many assert, then, at the time of creation, all of the angels were in unity. And, further, if a rebellion had taken place at some point prior, God would not have declared all of creation very good. So, from that, it seems that Satan's fall occurs after Day 7. How long after? Since Adam/Eve were by then created and since God gave them the command to multiply, I'm assuming that they did so soon after. Anyway, I'm still reading through commentaries.
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I tend to agree with you on Genesis stating “all of creation, very good”.
 
greg64

greg64

Well-Known Member
I don't have much to add to all the above, but I will post a couple of things from Jack Kelley that speak to the issue. In both pieces, I think he makes a logical case the fall was sometime before God created man. I also think Matthew 13:24-30 leaves room for God to have created everything good and declared it so but then an enemy (presumably pre-existing) came in and spread corruption.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/when-did-satan-fall/

https://www.raptureready.com/2013/10/26/why-did-god-do-that-by-jack-kelley/
 
S

Soulkid

New Member
Interesting discussion. I'm with RJS and BT that Satan fell after the 7th day of creation. In fact, as someone suggested, it's makes the most sense to me that his deception of Eve was his actual fall as well - he would have been having thoughts prior to that, of course, but this was the time he made his move. I would argue that because Ezek 28:13 describes him as being 'in Eden the garden of God', (I don't see any biblical evidence that this is an 'Eden in heaven') he was not fallen before creation.

Two references used to promote the 'gap theory' (angelic fall pre-creation) are:

1) Isaiah 45:18 - "For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."
Here the bolded bit uses the same phrase in Gen 1:2, 'tohu va bohu'. But I feel like that's driving a truck through a keyhole.

And 2), translating Gen 1:2 as "the earth 'became' without form and void". Again, it's possible, but it's drawing a pretty long bow when there are other satisfactory conclusions and time lines that fit comfortably with the text as typically understood.
 
Jan51

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Soulkid said:
Interesting discussion. I'm with RJS and BT that Satan fell after the 7th day of creation. In fact, as someone suggested, it's makes the most sense to me that his deception of Eve was his actual fall as well - he would have been having thoughts prior to that, of course, but this was the time he made his move. I would argue that because Ezek 28:13 describes him as being 'in Eden the garden of God', (I don't see any biblical evidence that this is an 'Eden in heaven') he was not fallen before creation.
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I had not heard of or thought of this possibility till I read this thread. And now I am strongly leaning this way too!
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Active Member
Hello RonJohnSilver,

First off, nice avatar name! I have at times pondered the same question as to when the original fall took place. Unfortunately, all we have are the details in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 of what caused it, but nothing regarding the time frame. Scripture simply does not reveal the answer to this. At some point in eternity the angels were created. Were they created all at the same time or in phases? I personally have not come across any scripture(s) that even hints of when Satan and his angels rebelled in relation to the the creation of mankind. As it is, Revelation 12:4 is the only reason that we know that it was a third of the angels that rebelled with Satan. It could be possible that the church may be filling that void.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Active Member
Len said:
I have always believed that the creation of our world and the heavenly angels were in very different era's, and like what you say too Ahwatukee.
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Hello Len,

Yes, I agree with this as well, that the angels existed well before mankind, as well as their fall. It doesn't seem plausible that the rebellion of Satan and his angels took place during the same week of the creation of mankind, but was an event that took place somewhere in eternity pre Adam and Eve.
 
Hidden

Hidden

Well-Known Member
mattfivefour said:
I think it clear from Scripture that Clouds is correct when he says:
It is also clear that at the point Satan tempted Eve he was already hostile toward God, defaming Him by questioning His character and His word. Further, there are at least two other passages (Isaiah 14:12-16; Ezekiel 28:13-19) regarding Satan's fall that, from their respective contexts, appear to indicate this rebellion and fall must have occurred before the creation of human beings. May I also suggest that, when prayerfully considered and placed along side the other scriptures on the subject, Revelation 12:2-4 and 2 Peter 2:4 also add some light on the matter.
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I agree on all points. I believe one reason God created humans is to tell a "story" illustrating His character. 1 Peter 1:12 says that "angels long to look into these things". They are eager to see the chapters that unfold in this whole drama - from creation all the way to the end. I think it was Hal Lindsey who posits that when satan rebelled, he accused God that He is unloving and that He is unjust. In response, God created the world and humans to show that He IS loving and Just.
 
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