Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
What is wrong with this passage?
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maryrae
Well-Known Member
Nothing.
mattfivefour
Well-Known Member
???
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
In every version but the KJV it is plural. Yet, I remember even the KJV originally saying "heavens". Am I alone here? I have a KJV that is over 100 years old and it says "heaven".
Didn't Dr. J. Vernon McGee use the KJV? His audio on this passage, he says "heavens" twice.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/mcgee_j_vernon/Gen/Genesis.cfm#Genesis_1_1
In every version but the KJV it is plural. Yet, I remember even the KJV originally saying "heavens". Am I alone here? I have a KJV that is over 100 years old and it says "heaven".
Didn't Dr. J. Vernon McGee use the KJV? His audio on this passage, he says "heavens" twice.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/mcgee_j_vernon/Gen/Genesis.cfm#Genesis_1_1
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
Here's more "evidence" that it used to say "heavens." 2 1/2 Min video.
https://www.***********/watch?v=tuJ6jACD-do
Edited to add: sorry, seems I can't post a link to a youtube video or don't know how.
https://www.***********/watch?v=tuJ6jACD-do
Edited to add: sorry, seems I can't post a link to a youtube video or don't know how.
Hsmommy
Active Member
My KJV is about 40 years old & heaven is singular.
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
I have 4 KJV plus a pocket KJV Gideon Bible. They all say heaven, yet, especially in the video there is "evidence" that it at one time said "heavens."
I've got another verse to consider.
Matt 9:17 (KJV)
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
First of all, bottles does not make sense as they don't break no matter if it is old or new wine.
Second, I distinctly remember this as "wineskins."
What do you remember?
I've got another verse to consider.
Matt 9:17 (KJV)
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
First of all, bottles does not make sense as they don't break no matter if it is old or new wine.
Second, I distinctly remember this as "wineskins."
What do you remember?
Most current bibles still use wineskins.
Im lost as to what point you are trying to make other than different bibles at times use a different word to describe the same thing (in most cases)
Any Minute
Tetelestai !!
Interesting, though I have no idea if the King James version has ever changed those words. I have some older Scofield versions that use the singular of heaven.
I usually read/study from either NKJV or NASB which use " heavens and wineskins" so when I quote those passages I always use the latter.
I think the english plural of "heavens" would be more accurate as to what is being conveyed in that verse.
I can see how the use of the word "bottles" could cause an issue for those who think of bottles being made of glass. The word actually means leather bottles or bags which makes more sense in how Jesus used it in that parable.
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
I'm spoon feeding verses that I believe changed. Not in the sense that revisions were made, but in the sense they were retroactive or even supernatural (meaning mysterious) changes. This can only be noted if you remember it differently or if there is residual evidence.
Why would the KJV say "bottles" and the NKJV say "wineskins"? Why would the KJV have a more modern word than the NKJV?
Here's a few more for KJV:
Unicorn occurs 6 times in the KJV and unicorns occurs 3. I believe it should say wild ox.
Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Corn instead of wheat or grains of wheat. Corn occurs in the KJV 102 times. Corn wasn't even discovered until early American history.
Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
Check out Revelation 7 in the KJV.
Tribe Names
Rev 7:6
Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Should be Asher, Nephtali and Manasseh.
Rev 7:8
Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Should be Zebulon.
The NASB is not immune.
There are two potential changes that I believe have happened or are going to happen in the NASB.
The first one I believe has happened in Hebrews 9:4. Although everywhere else in the NASB, the word "tablets" is used to describe the 10 commandments written on stone. However, in this one verse, it (now) says "tables". I have a commentary on Hebrews written by Steven Ger, in which in the commentary it says "tablets". It should be noted that his work primarily uses the NASB. I have also sent an inquiry to him as well.
Heb 9:4 (NASB)
having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
The second subject seems about to take place and is found in Genesis 40. In the KJV, all references to "cupbearer" now say "butler". In my NASB Ryrie Study Bible (copyrighted 1976, 1978) the passages still say "cupbearer", however, the heading now says "Joseph Interprets the Dreams of the Butler and the Baker" (I have photos of my Bible, but will need to find a place to upload them). Interestingly enough, in my Mother's NASB Ryrie Study Bible Expanded Edition (copyrighted 1986, 1995) the heading reads with the word "Cupbearer" as does all of the scriptural references. Now this could have been a mistake in my edition that was corrected, however, the word "butler" occurs in the KJV, NKJV, RSV and ASV. I am periodically monitoring my Bible to see if any "changes" occur.
I have been researching for a few months now. There are many more examples. I don't expect anyone to make any rush judgments, but in order to discuss this with anyone else, I first have to get some awareness about this. Which is why, like I said, I am spoon feeding some examples for consideration.
Edited to fix scripture reference for corn: Luke 6:1.
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Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
I personally spoke with Ed Hindson about the word "heavens" in Gen 1:1. He said the original is definitely plural. Also in a recent video from Andy Woods on Angels (video 01) he makes a long point on it being plural. So I do know that the correct word should be "heavens". I'm just trying to find someone that remembers the KJV as "heavens" or like in the J. Vernon McGee audio sermon, can verify that he always used the KJV, thus making it a residual record or proof that it once was "heavens" in the KJV. Positive proof is hard to come by, but the video I tried to post found 2 articles before the 1900's quoting "heavens".
mattfivefour
Well-Known Member
@Trust&Obey, I am trying to understand the problem you are having with this matter. Translation is not an exact science. It is literally impossible to translate one language into another word for word and retaining exactly the meaning of the original. A word is merely a container to enable us to convey a meaning to someone else. Each word therefore contains a meaning that expresses some shade of whatever is intended by the original writer/speaker. This works reasonably well within a language. But take a word that has an exact meaning in one language and try to translate that into a word in another language: the word in the new language may have different shades of meaning than the original. Therefore translators may have to use more than one simple word to accurately convey what was meant in the original. That is why even translation described as being "word for word" are not actually exactly word for word.
Quite apart from the meaning of words being different, there is the word order that must be dealt with and be changed in order for the sentence to make sense. for example, a word fror word translation of John 3:19 would read: "This now is the judgement that the light has come into the world and loved the men rather the darkness than the light were for of them evil the deeds." I suggest that reading through the 31,173 verses of the Bible translated in such fashion would not result in much easy understanding of its content.
And then there are the many idiomatic expressions that may make sense in one language but have no meaning (or, worse, the wrong meaning) in another language. The following excerpt from an article by an experienced Italian to English translator named Antony Shugaar may help you understand the difficulties involved. It is excerpted from Loss, Betrayal, and Inaccuracy: A Translator’s Handbook.
Taking the elevator example Mr. Shugaar gives, if a person were translating from French or Italian to English and precisely translated an account of something happening on the fifth floor (quinto piano in Italian, cinquième étage in French) of a building, he or she would be misleading their English readers. The fact is the event would have taken place on the sixth floor of the building.
The issue of the correct translation of tense and number can also create differences: for different translators sometimes differ in which to use, even though the original text may be specific. And I am afraid I cannot answer why. Take Genesis 1:3 for example. The Hebrew is specific that the word is "the heavens" plural— הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם haš-šā-ma-yim, pronounced hash-sha-my-EEM. Yet the Jewish Tanakh of 1912 translates the word as "heaven" singular. Go figure. Yet does this alter the meaning? I suggest not. The context gives the meaning and the context clearly is the universe, not the dwelling place of God. People can be said to look up to the heavens, or look up to heaven. In both cases it is meant that they turned their eyes upward. I would therefore suggest that none of the differences of translation you have found have materially altered God's Word. The truth is not merely in the letter but in the ideas being conveyed.
I hope this helps.
Quite apart from the meaning of words being different, there is the word order that must be dealt with and be changed in order for the sentence to make sense. for example, a word fror word translation of John 3:19 would read: "This now is the judgement that the light has come into the world and loved the men rather the darkness than the light were for of them evil the deeds." I suggest that reading through the 31,173 verses of the Bible translated in such fashion would not result in much easy understanding of its content.
And then there are the many idiomatic expressions that may make sense in one language but have no meaning (or, worse, the wrong meaning) in another language. The following excerpt from an article by an experienced Italian to English translator named Antony Shugaar may help you understand the difficulties involved. It is excerpted from Loss, Betrayal, and Inaccuracy: A Translator’s Handbook.
As a translator from the Italian, I participate daily in a largely unconscious way in an old, ongoing dispute about faithfulness to the source text versus readability in the new language. It is a great paradox that faithfulness and readability are mutually exclusive at times. For example, consider a somewhat outdated English expression: “to take French leave.” It means to go away without saying goodbye. In French, interestingly, the idiomatic phrase is “dire adieu all’anglaise.” To take English leave. (A scene is conjured up: A Frenchman and an Englishman both turn and walk away, each amazed at the other’s poor manners, each calling the behavior indicative of the other’s citizenry.) If one were translating a French book into English for a UK audience, the natural solution might seem to be a change of “English leave” to “French leave”; however, that would not make sense if the speaker was a Frenchman. So, for the sake of clarity and accuracy, one might render the translation more loosely, such as “he left rudely, without a goodbye.”
Idiomatic phrases, in particular, are difficult to bring successfully from one language into another. For example, I was speaking to my sister on the phone recently. We had come to some point in the conversation where it was time for us to vie in the expression of appalled indignation.
“Breathtaking, right?” I said.
She echoed me: “The jaw drops.”
In glee, I said, “Wait. You’ll never guess how you say ‘the jaw drops’ in Italian.”
“Go ahead.”
“Mi cascano le braccia. My arms fall off.”
Silence while she tried to picture it, then a roar of laughter. Not only can’t I speak, what’s worse is that I can’t gesticulate.
In addition to knowing idiomatic phrases and slang, a good translator must have a great store of precise knowledge about not just the source language, but also the culture in question. A translator working from the Italian or French must know that when someone takes an elevator to the fifth floor, it’s actually the sixth floor. In these countries, they do not number the ground floor. The buttons on an Italian elevator read T-1-2-3-4-5, etc. T is for terra: the ground floor. And the floor they skip in Italy isn’t thirteen, it is unlucky seventeen. Venerdì 17, Friday the seventeenth, is the day you can probably get cheap plane tickets.
Today, translators have the luxury of the Internet to help them research the meaning and context of various phrases. But there is another process, as ancient as translation, that is unlikely to be replaced by anything computerized. That is the ability to project oneself into the world being described.
A translator may have spent years in college and graduate school learning the Italian language but still have a hard time communicating the peculiarities of, say, the Italian physical world if she hasn’t spent years living there. This is a place where foot traffic and car traffic is as close and uncomfortable as the personal conversational space, and where people notice, and comment, if your socks don’t match your belt (and if you think belts, and socks for that matter, are brown and black, and that matching means “being the same color,” then there is a book about socks, belts, and color waiting to be written just for you, in Italian).
Taking the elevator example Mr. Shugaar gives, if a person were translating from French or Italian to English and precisely translated an account of something happening on the fifth floor (quinto piano in Italian, cinquième étage in French) of a building, he or she would be misleading their English readers. The fact is the event would have taken place on the sixth floor of the building.
The issue of the correct translation of tense and number can also create differences: for different translators sometimes differ in which to use, even though the original text may be specific. And I am afraid I cannot answer why. Take Genesis 1:3 for example. The Hebrew is specific that the word is "the heavens" plural— הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם haš-šā-ma-yim, pronounced hash-sha-my-EEM. Yet the Jewish Tanakh of 1912 translates the word as "heaven" singular. Go figure. Yet does this alter the meaning? I suggest not. The context gives the meaning and the context clearly is the universe, not the dwelling place of God. People can be said to look up to the heavens, or look up to heaven. In both cases it is meant that they turned their eyes upward. I would therefore suggest that none of the differences of translation you have found have materially altered God's Word. The truth is not merely in the letter but in the ideas being conveyed.
I hope this helps.
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
Mattfivefour and other readers,
This morning, I have prayerfully considered how to respond to you. So this is my plan. I will tell you a bit of my journey to introducing this subject. My anguish, my sincerity, my love for God's Word. I will attempt to use rationality on one of the most irrational and outrageous suppositions of my life, so far. Even this moment I am praying that God fine-tune my words so there is clarity and understanding. You can expect two posts that cover my background, awareness of Biblical “changes”, the grieving process and my summary and appeal. I will break this into 2 posts because it is long.
I am most conscious that it is God's judgment in my sharing this as well as in handling and expressing myself that gives me the most pause. Searching my heart I can say I sincerely believe that “changes” are taking place and I wish to gently warn other believers, even though it might cause some sorrow on the front end. In my book truth trumps deceit any day, but must be mixed with love. So to begin....
My background
I am 52 and a grandma. In my twenties, I studied apologetics. Researching has become a lifelong endeavor and I test everything against the Bible for my own personal walk. In addition, I wanted to have answers for those that I might witness to. In the last 30 years the progression of study ranged from theological cults, eschatology to later the rest of the “ologies” including Isrealology. Discernment became very important as I studied and witnessed the emergent movement. Some of my studies were a direct result of being confronted with the NAR movement. My latest gut-wrenching study was concerning Calvinism and ultimately I rejected it (I spent 3 years on the subject, off and on, to reach my final conclusion – my heart reached the conclusion very early, however, it was my head that took longer, wanting to be assured that I came to a Biblical conclusion).
My life verse is John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” NASB
Over the course of the last 30 years I'd say that my premise changed from “what do I believe” to “what does God's Word say”. While some say knowledge is power, my experience has been (like many on this board) that knowledge has brought me more isolation. Few in my Christian and family world are interested in end times, few have a real excitement of Christ's return, few have the same thirst that I have for the Word, few understand Biblical discernment, fewer still hold the belief that Calvinism is wrong.
But through all of the theological tests and personal tests that God has put my way, I still clung to Him and His Word. I still do.
My favorite word is “veracity”. I like what it means, “truth”. I even like the way it sounds, it just flows across the tongue. Many times I have used it to describe the Bible. Many times I have used prophecy to prove the veracity of the Bible. I've been accused of worshiping the Bible. I vehemently denied this. I still do.
A few years ago I wrote a 2 part series on why “The Message” is a deceptive and poor imitation of the Bible. I shared it with friends and family. Many were unaware that the “Mess” should not be considered God's Word. More than a few were quoting from it at the time, even my pastor. I loved the integrity of God's Word so much that I was compelled to share my findings. Most of the article was just simple comparisons to mostly the NASB translation. I believe that on this subject, many took notice. I never heard it quoted from that pastor again.
That is my background.
Awareness of Biblical Changes
This is what I have been confronting since about March of this year. It was then that I first became aware that the King James Version of the Bible might have been tampered with. I wasn't sure when it took place, for instance, was there a time that publishers changed it? I heard claims that it was altered supernaturally, even back to the 1611 version. I had no way to confirm this except using the online version of the 1611 (which anyone familiar with computers would say that could be easily changed).
Proceeding to review – regardless of the origin of the “changes”, I was interested in the “changes” themselves. Many did not sound right to me. Many “changes” actually sounded like changes that the “Mess” had done or other poorly constructed newer “translations”.
One thing was unmistakable, the “changes” could be verified, not necessarily that they “changed” (although I did find residual evidence on some of them), but that especially the KJV Bible had words and phrases that seemed incongruent. For instance I have mentioned “corn”. This was not discovered by the “world” until Columbus' times. Yet wheat was known during Biblical times. It was what they grew. They never grew corn in Biblical times. They had never even heard about it.
So here are my questions. Why would the translators of the KJV use “corn” instead of “wheat”? Why would the other versions, including the NKJV, which was based on the KJV, say “wheat” instead of “corn”? In my mind, that makes no sense. Two more questions. Why has no one noticed this until recently? Wouldn't that have been a controversy? After all the KJV has been around for 400 years.
These “changes” were showing in the KJV Bibles that I had access to and to all of the KJV online versions I checked. I consulted my parents. My father pointed out that the KJV Bible I was using was published in 1984, so perhaps I should check in older editions. He also recommended I get a list, if possible, of noted changes made by publishers.
Well, that prompted me to order several Bibles off eBay. I started a Bible collection process. I ordered one KJV Bible printed by Oxford over 100 years ago. I also ordered an ASV and a CSB (I only had the NT of the CSB). To my consternation, the 100 year old Bible had the same changes that I found in my other copies and online. I did not pursue the idea of publishers lists because frankly, at the time I wasn't sure if I could find them and wasn't sure if I was up to the task of wading through them.
Over the course of 2 months I had in my home library: 4.5 KJV, 1 NKJV, 3 NIV, 1 ASV, 2 NASB, 2.5 CSB, 1 ESV, 1 RSV, and a few assorted other Bibles.
While I was waiting for my new “old” Bibles, I continued to review lists and watched videos showing verses that just didn't sound right. These weren't just a handful, like I have tried to show, but hundreds. Here's a list of just some of the types of “changes” the sources were claiming (that I have also reviewed and can say that the text in the KJV does confirm – whether altered or not):
More to follow...
This morning, I have prayerfully considered how to respond to you. So this is my plan. I will tell you a bit of my journey to introducing this subject. My anguish, my sincerity, my love for God's Word. I will attempt to use rationality on one of the most irrational and outrageous suppositions of my life, so far. Even this moment I am praying that God fine-tune my words so there is clarity and understanding. You can expect two posts that cover my background, awareness of Biblical “changes”, the grieving process and my summary and appeal. I will break this into 2 posts because it is long.
I am most conscious that it is God's judgment in my sharing this as well as in handling and expressing myself that gives me the most pause. Searching my heart I can say I sincerely believe that “changes” are taking place and I wish to gently warn other believers, even though it might cause some sorrow on the front end. In my book truth trumps deceit any day, but must be mixed with love. So to begin....
My background
I am 52 and a grandma. In my twenties, I studied apologetics. Researching has become a lifelong endeavor and I test everything against the Bible for my own personal walk. In addition, I wanted to have answers for those that I might witness to. In the last 30 years the progression of study ranged from theological cults, eschatology to later the rest of the “ologies” including Isrealology. Discernment became very important as I studied and witnessed the emergent movement. Some of my studies were a direct result of being confronted with the NAR movement. My latest gut-wrenching study was concerning Calvinism and ultimately I rejected it (I spent 3 years on the subject, off and on, to reach my final conclusion – my heart reached the conclusion very early, however, it was my head that took longer, wanting to be assured that I came to a Biblical conclusion).
My life verse is John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” NASB
Over the course of the last 30 years I'd say that my premise changed from “what do I believe” to “what does God's Word say”. While some say knowledge is power, my experience has been (like many on this board) that knowledge has brought me more isolation. Few in my Christian and family world are interested in end times, few have a real excitement of Christ's return, few have the same thirst that I have for the Word, few understand Biblical discernment, fewer still hold the belief that Calvinism is wrong.
But through all of the theological tests and personal tests that God has put my way, I still clung to Him and His Word. I still do.
My favorite word is “veracity”. I like what it means, “truth”. I even like the way it sounds, it just flows across the tongue. Many times I have used it to describe the Bible. Many times I have used prophecy to prove the veracity of the Bible. I've been accused of worshiping the Bible. I vehemently denied this. I still do.
A few years ago I wrote a 2 part series on why “The Message” is a deceptive and poor imitation of the Bible. I shared it with friends and family. Many were unaware that the “Mess” should not be considered God's Word. More than a few were quoting from it at the time, even my pastor. I loved the integrity of God's Word so much that I was compelled to share my findings. Most of the article was just simple comparisons to mostly the NASB translation. I believe that on this subject, many took notice. I never heard it quoted from that pastor again.
That is my background.
Awareness of Biblical Changes
This is what I have been confronting since about March of this year. It was then that I first became aware that the King James Version of the Bible might have been tampered with. I wasn't sure when it took place, for instance, was there a time that publishers changed it? I heard claims that it was altered supernaturally, even back to the 1611 version. I had no way to confirm this except using the online version of the 1611 (which anyone familiar with computers would say that could be easily changed).
Proceeding to review – regardless of the origin of the “changes”, I was interested in the “changes” themselves. Many did not sound right to me. Many “changes” actually sounded like changes that the “Mess” had done or other poorly constructed newer “translations”.
One thing was unmistakable, the “changes” could be verified, not necessarily that they “changed” (although I did find residual evidence on some of them), but that especially the KJV Bible had words and phrases that seemed incongruent. For instance I have mentioned “corn”. This was not discovered by the “world” until Columbus' times. Yet wheat was known during Biblical times. It was what they grew. They never grew corn in Biblical times. They had never even heard about it.
So here are my questions. Why would the translators of the KJV use “corn” instead of “wheat”? Why would the other versions, including the NKJV, which was based on the KJV, say “wheat” instead of “corn”? In my mind, that makes no sense. Two more questions. Why has no one noticed this until recently? Wouldn't that have been a controversy? After all the KJV has been around for 400 years.
These “changes” were showing in the KJV Bibles that I had access to and to all of the KJV online versions I checked. I consulted my parents. My father pointed out that the KJV Bible I was using was published in 1984, so perhaps I should check in older editions. He also recommended I get a list, if possible, of noted changes made by publishers.
Well, that prompted me to order several Bibles off eBay. I started a Bible collection process. I ordered one KJV Bible printed by Oxford over 100 years ago. I also ordered an ASV and a CSB (I only had the NT of the CSB). To my consternation, the 100 year old Bible had the same changes that I found in my other copies and online. I did not pursue the idea of publishers lists because frankly, at the time I wasn't sure if I could find them and wasn't sure if I was up to the task of wading through them.
Over the course of 2 months I had in my home library: 4.5 KJV, 1 NKJV, 3 NIV, 1 ASV, 2 NASB, 2.5 CSB, 1 ESV, 1 RSV, and a few assorted other Bibles.
While I was waiting for my new “old” Bibles, I continued to review lists and watched videos showing verses that just didn't sound right. These weren't just a handful, like I have tried to show, but hundreds. Here's a list of just some of the types of “changes” the sources were claiming (that I have also reviewed and can say that the text in the KJV does confirm – whether altered or not):
- Words were “changed” – corn, unicorn, bottles.
- Words were missing – Sanhedrin, animals.
- Modern words were used – tires (invented in 1839 AD), passengers (1915 AD), college (1636 AD).
- Names were “changing” – Aser (Asher), Juda (Judah), Nebuchadrezzer (Nebachadnezzar), Booz (Boaz)
- Names were not consistent from the OT to the NT (although not incorrect) – Noah (Noe), Elijah (Elias), Hosea (Osee), Melchizedek (Melchisedec).
- Names in the NT were “different” – Timetheous (Timothy), John Baptist (John the Baptist), Joses (John).
- Men can nurse children – Isa 49:23 (your foster fathers), Job 21:24 (body is well nourished), Job 21:24 (body is well nourished).
- God and His character was changed –
- God was created – Rev 3:14.
- God has a father of His own – Rev 1:6 (his God and Father), Eph 5:20 (God and the Father), Col 1:3 (God and the Father), Col 3:17 (God and the Father), Jam 1:27 (God and the Father).
- God was going to do evil, but He repented – Exo 32:14 (relented).
- God doesn't respect anyone who is wise of heart – Job 37:24 (should be “does not God have regard for” – a question confirming that He does).
- God is terrible – Jer 20:11 (mighty warrior)
- God has horns coming out of His hands – Hab 3:4 (rays flashing)
- God was created – Rev 3:14.
More to follow...
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Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
Part 2
The Grieving Process
At the very least I could not deny that the KJV Bible no longer sounded correct to me. The King James Bible was known for its beauty and now it had grammatical errors. When did that happen? I admit that I hadn't picked up a KJV Bible in years, except maybe briefly, and only memorized a relatively few number of verses as a child. I know I remembered the Lord Prayer and that had “changed” too. I sat under only a few pastors who taught with it. I was no expert. But I didn't recall at the end of Revelation there being the words “The End”.
Weren't we promised that God's Word would never change? Here were key questions I considered:
Then I ran into this passage, a passage that to my knowledge, no prophecy teacher had given much appreciation or time to.
Amos 8:11-12
11 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord GOD,
“When I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water,
But rather for hearing the words of the LORD.
12 “People will stagger from sea to sea
And from the north even to the east;
They will go to and fro to seek the word of the LORD,
But they will not find it. NASB
And then there was this.
Daniel 8:23-24
23 “In the latter period of their rule,
When the transgressors have run their course,
A king will arise,
Insolent and skilled in intrigue.
24 His power will be mighty, but not by his own power,
And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree
And prosper and perform his will;
He will destroy mighty men and the holy people. NASB
Would God allow Satan in these last days to altar our Bibles? Certainly, the devil has his hand on some of the newer translations. Satan asked permission to give tribulation to Job and God assented. Satan was allowed to sift Peter. Could God's purpose be fulfilled in the last days to make the truth become a famine? Are we seeing this stage being set? Are the scriptures being altered supernaturally? Is the purpose that during the tribulation period itself, those seeking the truth will have to rely on their own memories, the 144,000 witnesses, the two witnesses and even the angels of heaven? Is the Lord preparing for those days? These witnesses must be more powerful than I ever imagined or thought possible, otherwise all would perish. And the devil's lies must be triumphing (briefly) to help prepare the world for his kingdom.
I don't know. I don't know the mind of God.
But my spirit grieved. It grieved me that my son, my firstborn, whom I love, who says he was never really a Christian and now is an agnostic or even an atheist, might enter the tribulation without even an unaltered Bible. Not only are Bibles changing (I believe), but also books, commentaries, articles, videos, audios – anything that quotes the Bible. All versions. Even my cherished NASB.
If you can dare to believe me, let that soak in.
Still grieving, in early May, I went to the next available and closest prophecy conference. Although speaking to them only briefly, I gave a 20 page write-up (some by email and some by hand). I honestly thought that these men would at least be aware about this – to my dismay they were not. I have spoken, emailed, entreated 6 men (men with names you would recognize) to study this and respond, as I needed understanding and perspective. I told them that those that are bringing this to attention online think they are already in the Tribulation. If these “changes” are taking place, then we need prophecy teachers getting the word out - correctly. They were polite, but not one followed up.
I came home heartbroken. I waited for a response. Nothing. I became “depressed” or “down”. I turned my focus to other things because my heart couldn't bear it anymore. No one in my circle of friends wanted to talk about it – they may have believed me, seeing with their own eyes, confirming in their spirit, but it is just too much. Some denied it. I had spent money to attend this conference which could have been spent elsewhere. But, deep in my heart I knew that if just one more person would listen, then it wouldn't be for naught. At least to me.
Then one man called, as an afterthought I had sent him my write-up. He's a teacher and author. He called mostly because he knew my son (and me) and in my email I had told him of my son's change in position concerning God. He listened to me about my son. He listened to me about the Biblical changes. The Genesis 40 passage got his attention, I believe because he had the same edition as I did of the NASB and was looking at it even as we spoke on the phone. I told him that I knew I was setting myself up as “that crazy lady” to him and others, but if there was truth to what I was saying, then things should be done. Warnings should be given. Perhaps we should be memorizing and hand writing scriptures. Perhaps we should be working with the bible organizations online and publishers. I don't know. I just knew that I was willing to help with research, but I am only one person. For the first time I felt that at least one person had at least listened. God would have to do the rest. But, it helped my heart.
After my one month “sabbatical” I slowly began studying this subject again. That brings me to yesterday. Yesterday, I reached out to 4 of the men I contacted at the conference plus one pastor. I asked them to review 2 passages only. Two that I presented here. Heb 9:4 and Gen 40. I'm hopeful that I will get at least 2 responses. One from a leader that has always responded to my emails and the other from the leader that I spoke with on the phone.
After that, I finally felt the courage and purpose to start a conversation about this on RRBB. I may have begun it childishly, starting with Genesis 1:1, but I really didn't know how to start the conversation. I have hesitated taking this public because of the grief I went through. I have waited 5 1/2 months to do so. But, yesterday my confidence grew and the scripture of Prov 3:3 was heavily on my heart.
Prov 3:3
Do not let kindness and truth leave you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
That verse combined with my life verse John 14:6 led me to bring what I believe is truth to you. I have not lied. Every scripture or fact I have given can be verified with online Bibles or Bibles you possess. Before bringing these facts though, I had to ask myself, would God want the truth hidden or exposed? I firmly believe that He would want truth exposed. But truth exposed and expressed in kindness and love, which is my heart, as well.
The only question is whether you believe that these scriptures were always that way or not. Perhaps there is a reasonable, un-miraculous explanation, but, perhaps there is a supernatural explanation that fits perfectly with God's plans.
Summary
So, knowing that even broaching this subject in a public place may well bring consequences that are not enjoyable, I have done so because I have followed this board since the late 1990's. Many times I have felt encouraged. Many times I have been taught. This place is special and I don't want to be banned. However, I need to talk to someone about all of this. You don't have to take up my position. I can take rational criticism. However, it would be so good if I could find one or more people that might want to research this with me. It doesn't have to be on this board. In fact, it probably shouldn't be. For the very first time, I'm willing to say my name and email so you might contact me personally. (Edited by Trust&Obey on 8/11/19. I removed my name because it no longer seemed like a good idea to have my name on here and because the viewing on this thread had grown so large with no one contacting me personally anyway. The Admin had previously removed my email, which I'm rather relieved that they did.)
Admin edit - *No personal information on the board*
I'm not trying to steal anyone away from this board, I just need to find some people who are willing to work with me on this perhaps outside of RRBB. Research. Document it in some way. Educate.
Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps discussion on this board will be allowed by the administrators. I can see a point being made either way. I will support and honor their decisions. I always have.
I just want it to be known that I uphold God's Word. I esteem it. I try to live my life by its tenants. It is in no way my goal to disparage the Bible, mock the Bible or discredit the Bible. However, when is the Bible not the Bible anymore? If we are still on this earth, and this is true and progresses, then we need to know, memorize, remember, store and share God's word with others. How does that change for you? What if the KJV becomes so corrupt that it can't be used? What if others follow? The ramifications are mammoth.
But there still may be good from this. Those, including myself, even if I were totally, horribly wrong about all of this, will endeavor to read and memorize scripture before there truly is a famine for the Word. That should and does have me relying more on Him than anything else.
Psalm 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
The Grieving Process
At the very least I could not deny that the KJV Bible no longer sounded correct to me. The King James Bible was known for its beauty and now it had grammatical errors. When did that happen? I admit that I hadn't picked up a KJV Bible in years, except maybe briefly, and only memorized a relatively few number of verses as a child. I know I remembered the Lord Prayer and that had “changed” too. I sat under only a few pastors who taught with it. I was no expert. But I didn't recall at the end of Revelation there being the words “The End”.
Weren't we promised that God's Word would never change? Here were key questions I considered:
- Does the Word of God change if all Bibles in the world were destroyed or changed?
Matt 5:18 NASB
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
- Can God preserve His word, even if no one else has access to them?
Psa 12:6-7 NASB
The words of the LORD are pure words;
As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times.
- Is Jesus the Word of God?
John 1:1 NASB
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Then I ran into this passage, a passage that to my knowledge, no prophecy teacher had given much appreciation or time to.
Amos 8:11-12
11 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord GOD,
“When I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water,
But rather for hearing the words of the LORD.
12 “People will stagger from sea to sea
And from the north even to the east;
They will go to and fro to seek the word of the LORD,
But they will not find it. NASB
And then there was this.
Daniel 8:23-24
23 “In the latter period of their rule,
When the transgressors have run their course,
A king will arise,
Insolent and skilled in intrigue.
24 His power will be mighty, but not by his own power,
And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree
And prosper and perform his will;
He will destroy mighty men and the holy people. NASB
Would God allow Satan in these last days to altar our Bibles? Certainly, the devil has his hand on some of the newer translations. Satan asked permission to give tribulation to Job and God assented. Satan was allowed to sift Peter. Could God's purpose be fulfilled in the last days to make the truth become a famine? Are we seeing this stage being set? Are the scriptures being altered supernaturally? Is the purpose that during the tribulation period itself, those seeking the truth will have to rely on their own memories, the 144,000 witnesses, the two witnesses and even the angels of heaven? Is the Lord preparing for those days? These witnesses must be more powerful than I ever imagined or thought possible, otherwise all would perish. And the devil's lies must be triumphing (briefly) to help prepare the world for his kingdom.
I don't know. I don't know the mind of God.
But my spirit grieved. It grieved me that my son, my firstborn, whom I love, who says he was never really a Christian and now is an agnostic or even an atheist, might enter the tribulation without even an unaltered Bible. Not only are Bibles changing (I believe), but also books, commentaries, articles, videos, audios – anything that quotes the Bible. All versions. Even my cherished NASB.
If you can dare to believe me, let that soak in.
Still grieving, in early May, I went to the next available and closest prophecy conference. Although speaking to them only briefly, I gave a 20 page write-up (some by email and some by hand). I honestly thought that these men would at least be aware about this – to my dismay they were not. I have spoken, emailed, entreated 6 men (men with names you would recognize) to study this and respond, as I needed understanding and perspective. I told them that those that are bringing this to attention online think they are already in the Tribulation. If these “changes” are taking place, then we need prophecy teachers getting the word out - correctly. They were polite, but not one followed up.
I came home heartbroken. I waited for a response. Nothing. I became “depressed” or “down”. I turned my focus to other things because my heart couldn't bear it anymore. No one in my circle of friends wanted to talk about it – they may have believed me, seeing with their own eyes, confirming in their spirit, but it is just too much. Some denied it. I had spent money to attend this conference which could have been spent elsewhere. But, deep in my heart I knew that if just one more person would listen, then it wouldn't be for naught. At least to me.
Then one man called, as an afterthought I had sent him my write-up. He's a teacher and author. He called mostly because he knew my son (and me) and in my email I had told him of my son's change in position concerning God. He listened to me about my son. He listened to me about the Biblical changes. The Genesis 40 passage got his attention, I believe because he had the same edition as I did of the NASB and was looking at it even as we spoke on the phone. I told him that I knew I was setting myself up as “that crazy lady” to him and others, but if there was truth to what I was saying, then things should be done. Warnings should be given. Perhaps we should be memorizing and hand writing scriptures. Perhaps we should be working with the bible organizations online and publishers. I don't know. I just knew that I was willing to help with research, but I am only one person. For the first time I felt that at least one person had at least listened. God would have to do the rest. But, it helped my heart.
After my one month “sabbatical” I slowly began studying this subject again. That brings me to yesterday. Yesterday, I reached out to 4 of the men I contacted at the conference plus one pastor. I asked them to review 2 passages only. Two that I presented here. Heb 9:4 and Gen 40. I'm hopeful that I will get at least 2 responses. One from a leader that has always responded to my emails and the other from the leader that I spoke with on the phone.
After that, I finally felt the courage and purpose to start a conversation about this on RRBB. I may have begun it childishly, starting with Genesis 1:1, but I really didn't know how to start the conversation. I have hesitated taking this public because of the grief I went through. I have waited 5 1/2 months to do so. But, yesterday my confidence grew and the scripture of Prov 3:3 was heavily on my heart.
Prov 3:3
Do not let kindness and truth leave you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
That verse combined with my life verse John 14:6 led me to bring what I believe is truth to you. I have not lied. Every scripture or fact I have given can be verified with online Bibles or Bibles you possess. Before bringing these facts though, I had to ask myself, would God want the truth hidden or exposed? I firmly believe that He would want truth exposed. But truth exposed and expressed in kindness and love, which is my heart, as well.
The only question is whether you believe that these scriptures were always that way or not. Perhaps there is a reasonable, un-miraculous explanation, but, perhaps there is a supernatural explanation that fits perfectly with God's plans.
Summary
So, knowing that even broaching this subject in a public place may well bring consequences that are not enjoyable, I have done so because I have followed this board since the late 1990's. Many times I have felt encouraged. Many times I have been taught. This place is special and I don't want to be banned. However, I need to talk to someone about all of this. You don't have to take up my position. I can take rational criticism. However, it would be so good if I could find one or more people that might want to research this with me. It doesn't have to be on this board. In fact, it probably shouldn't be. For the very first time, I'm willing to say my name and email so you might contact me personally. (Edited by Trust&Obey on 8/11/19. I removed my name because it no longer seemed like a good idea to have my name on here and because the viewing on this thread had grown so large with no one contacting me personally anyway. The Admin had previously removed my email, which I'm rather relieved that they did.)
Admin edit - *No personal information on the board*
I'm not trying to steal anyone away from this board, I just need to find some people who are willing to work with me on this perhaps outside of RRBB. Research. Document it in some way. Educate.
Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps discussion on this board will be allowed by the administrators. I can see a point being made either way. I will support and honor their decisions. I always have.
I just want it to be known that I uphold God's Word. I esteem it. I try to live my life by its tenants. It is in no way my goal to disparage the Bible, mock the Bible or discredit the Bible. However, when is the Bible not the Bible anymore? If we are still on this earth, and this is true and progresses, then we need to know, memorize, remember, store and share God's word with others. How does that change for you? What if the KJV becomes so corrupt that it can't be used? What if others follow? The ramifications are mammoth.
But there still may be good from this. Those, including myself, even if I were totally, horribly wrong about all of this, will endeavor to read and memorize scripture before there truly is a famine for the Word. That should and does have me relying more on Him than anything else.
Psalm 119:11
Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Last edited:
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
There was a major error in my last statement under:
"After my one month “sabbatical” I slowly began studying this subject again. That brings me to yesterday. Yesterday, I reached out to 4 of the men I contacted at the conference plus one pastor. I asked them to review 2 passages only. Two that I presented here. Heb 9:4 and Gen 40. I'm hopeful that I will get at least 2 responses. One from a leader that has always responded to my emails and the other from the leader that I spoke with on the phone."
What can I say? I'm 52
I hadn't posted the info on those two verses here, but thought I did. Here is a portion of an email that I sent to others:
"After my one month “sabbatical” I slowly began studying this subject again. That brings me to yesterday. Yesterday, I reached out to 4 of the men I contacted at the conference plus one pastor. I asked them to review 2 passages only. Two that I presented here. Heb 9:4 and Gen 40. I'm hopeful that I will get at least 2 responses. One from a leader that has always responded to my emails and the other from the leader that I spoke with on the phone."
What can I say? I'm 52
I hadn't posted the info on those two verses here, but thought I did. Here is a portion of an email that I sent to others:
Everlasting Life
Through Faith in Jesus
Trust&Obey....I hear you in your concern for God's Word to be preserved properly. 
I know with the Message I was really concerned about that and certainly understand where you are coming from, God's Word is so precious. I think it's good that you are reaching out to people who can help you with this concern too.
I can't really answer your concerns but will pray that the Lord would give you answers and peace in regards to this.
And, I take comfort in this passage where it says, " “And this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit will not leave them, and neither will these words I have given you. They will be on your lips and on the lips of your children and your children’s children forever. I, the Lord, have spoken! Isaiah 59:21
God is faithful and I don't think He'll allow some of these incongruencies get in the way of one coming to Christ for Salvation. Salvation through faith in Christ's work His most passionate desire for mankind and God will find a way to make sure people clearly understand the Gospel.
I know with the Message I was really concerned about that and certainly understand where you are coming from, God's Word is so precious. I think it's good that you are reaching out to people who can help you with this concern too.I can't really answer your concerns but will pray that the Lord would give you answers and peace in regards to this.
And, I take comfort in this passage where it says, " “And this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit will not leave them, and neither will these words I have given you. They will be on your lips and on the lips of your children and your children’s children forever. I, the Lord, have spoken! Isaiah 59:21
God is faithful and I don't think He'll allow some of these incongruencies get in the way of one coming to Christ for Salvation. Salvation through faith in Christ's work His most passionate desire for mankind and God will find a way to make sure people clearly understand the Gospel.
GoldenEagle
Well-Known Member
I’m absolutely no theologian or academic and hold no authority on this forum, but my gut reaction is that you are beginning to major on minors. I’m not sure how fruitful continuing down this particular path would be, and think perhaps your obvious integrity, intelligence and attention to detail could be better used under fresh direction.
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
Everlasting Life
Your words are like the balm of Gilead. They brought tears to my eyes and hope to my heart. Thank you.
GoldenEagle
Thank you for your thoughtful words as well. Digging into the details is not for the fainthearted. I'm afraid that just as God gives some the eyes to see the whole picture, He has given me to dig and search out the details. Without this part of my personality I would have just satisfied myself that I was probably a 3 point Calvinist and been done with it - still confused about the correct words to use when witnessing. But because I persevered I can freely say "come to Jesus". I can sing, "I have decided to follow Jesus." I can feel assured in my salvation. God bless.
Your words are like the balm of Gilead. They brought tears to my eyes and hope to my heart. Thank you.
GoldenEagle
Thank you for your thoughtful words as well. Digging into the details is not for the fainthearted. I'm afraid that just as God gives some the eyes to see the whole picture, He has given me to dig and search out the details. Without this part of my personality I would have just satisfied myself that I was probably a 3 point Calvinist and been done with it - still confused about the correct words to use when witnessing. But because I persevered I can freely say "come to Jesus". I can sing, "I have decided to follow Jesus." I can feel assured in my salvation. God bless.
DanLMP
Well-Known Member
To tack onto Everlastings response, God is responsible for God's Word, not man.
To paraphrase what Nabeel Qureshi said in one of his books, if the Bible is not God's Word then either God is a liar or God is not all powerful.
The Bible is described as God's Word. Jesus Himself quoted from it frequently never once denouncing any single passage as being inaccurate or a lie.
In all these statements and quotes the term "man" does not come up as a responsible party for God's Word. Mankind has frequently tried to twist or edit scripture to mean what Man wants it to mean but the truth of the Word of God always wins out.
Also understand that the ink on the paper is not God's Word. The ink is just the translation of the Word.
For those who are truly seeking God, His Word will come to them.
To paraphrase what Nabeel Qureshi said in one of his books, if the Bible is not God's Word then either God is a liar or God is not all powerful.
The Bible is described as God's Word. Jesus Himself quoted from it frequently never once denouncing any single passage as being inaccurate or a lie.
In all these statements and quotes the term "man" does not come up as a responsible party for God's Word. Mankind has frequently tried to twist or edit scripture to mean what Man wants it to mean but the truth of the Word of God always wins out.
Also understand that the ink on the paper is not God's Word. The ink is just the translation of the Word.
For those who are truly seeking God, His Word will come to them.
Trust&Obey
Well-Known Member
DanLMP
Your point is very well taken. Jesus is the Word. God is in control.
Translations are just that, translations.
I'm a firm believer that those looking for truth will find it. In fact, in referring to the tribulation, those that will find truth will love the truth. This, ironically, also applies to those that will spend time researching the "changes" that are happening primarily to the King James, but also to other versions.
As to responsibility, do we not have some responsibility in guarding it? Had there not been someone guarding God's Word who posted findings online about how bad the Message was, I wouldn't have undertaken to warn others, who may have warned others still.
During my own grieving process, it became clear to me that this is much bigger than me, with me being like a person on the beach with a bucket trying to empty the ocean. I did both mentally and spiritually acknowledge that it isn't in my hands - I can't prevent what I believe is happening. However,it is not beyond the scope to believe that a group of Christians could monitor and report, thus warning others. Discernment ministries spend hours and hours of time researching and reporting on ministers and authors that are twisting God's Word. Why could there not be a discernment ministry that tackles scriptural alterations? What is worse, the twisting of scripture, or the re-writing of scripture?
These are thoughts I ponder.
Your point is very well taken. Jesus is the Word. God is in control.
Translations are just that, translations.
I'm a firm believer that those looking for truth will find it. In fact, in referring to the tribulation, those that will find truth will love the truth. This, ironically, also applies to those that will spend time researching the "changes" that are happening primarily to the King James, but also to other versions.
As to responsibility, do we not have some responsibility in guarding it? Had there not been someone guarding God's Word who posted findings online about how bad the Message was, I wouldn't have undertaken to warn others, who may have warned others still.
During my own grieving process, it became clear to me that this is much bigger than me, with me being like a person on the beach with a bucket trying to empty the ocean. I did both mentally and spiritually acknowledge that it isn't in my hands - I can't prevent what I believe is happening. However,it is not beyond the scope to believe that a group of Christians could monitor and report, thus warning others. Discernment ministries spend hours and hours of time researching and reporting on ministers and authors that are twisting God's Word. Why could there not be a discernment ministry that tackles scriptural alterations? What is worse, the twisting of scripture, or the re-writing of scripture?
These are thoughts I ponder.
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