What is the Cultivated Olive Tree gentile believers have been grafted into in Romans 11:17-24?

[Rick1950]

As an analogy, Paul speaks of a cultivated olive tree in Romans 11:24. This is something that has been solely Jewish but in vs19 we are told that, because of unbelief, some Jews have been broken off. This would seem to mean that only believing Jews remain part of this tree. However, vs. 23 and 24 tell us that it is possible for Jews to be grafted back into that tree if they subsequently come to belief.
Paul tells gentile believers that they have been grafted into this cultivated olive tree because of their faith. But grafted in gentiles, too, can be cut off if they don't "continue in His kindness" - presumably continue in their faith since it was their faith that got them grafted in.
What is this tree in Biblical terms? Is this "Israel"? Perhaps "God's/the holy people"? How about Daniel's people (Dan 9:24, Dan 12:1)?
Since Dan 12:1 defines "your people" for us as "everyone whose name is found written in the book", if the only other book where we see names written is the Book of Life which is the ultimate determiner of who goes to the Lake of Fire and who goes to the New Earth in Rev 20:15, are gentile believers now part of Daniel's "your people" because of their inclusion in that book? I'm not talking about replacement theology but, rather, I'm asking if gentiles now coexist in this "your people".
What are the implications of this for the end-times?
To complicate this question a little, it is my understanding that the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, that the child is Jesus, and that the "rest of her offspring" in vs 17 is the church. If the answer to the above is that gentile believers = Israel, God's holy people, Daniel's people, etc., then who are the other offspring?
As a side issue, what does this possibility of grafted in gentiles being cut out later do to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine? Is Paul's analogy in Romans 11 similar to Jesus' analogy in John 15 where Jesus says that branches cut off (this time of a grape vine) are "thrown into the fire and burned"? Sounds like Lake of Fire stuff.

 

[Chris]

You can read below about the symbols in Revelation 12. Gentile believers do not equal Israel.

The first symbol in chapter 12 is “a woman clothed with the sun,” with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head (12:1). Many different interpretations have been given of this imagery. Some commentators claim that this woman represents the Church. Catholics claim she is Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Here is a classic example of why it is important to let the Bible interpret itself, wherever possible. The point is that this imagery comes right out of Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37, where the sun stood for Jacob, the moon for Rachel, and the stars for Joseph’s brothers (Genesis 37:9-11). So, we can conclude that this woman represents the nation of Israel, the descendants of Jacob.

The woman is pregnant and is about to give birth. This refers to Israel providing the Messiah to the world. In verse 3 “a great red dragon,” which is Satan, tries to devour “a male child” when He is born – which, of course, is exactly what Satan tried to do when he motivated King Herod to send his army to Bethlehem to kill all the babies at the time of Jesus’ birth. But the male child, Jesus, is “caught up to God and to His throne” (the Ascension) where He waits “to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (12:5).

These verses remind us that there is a great cosmic struggle going on over the dominion of planet earth. God originally gave that dominion to Man (Genesis 1:28), but it was stolen by Satan when Adam and Eve gave in to his temptation and rebelled against God. Consequently, Satan is now “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31) and “the whole world lies in the power of the evil on” (1 John 5:19).

But one of the reasons Jesus died on the Cross was to make it possible for Man to reassert his rightful dominion over the earth. This is one of the many delayed benefits of the Cross (our glorified bodies being another one). Jesus will reclaim dominion over the earth when He returns at the end of the Tribulation. We saw Him doing that in the flash-forward about the “strong angel” in chapter 10. In chapter 5 verse 13 we are told that the heavenly hosts sing about that glorious day: “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-mysterious-woman/

And for the OSAS this will be helpful:

OSAS And Romans 11
By Jack Kelley

Question: Thank you so much for your website and ministry to the Lord. It is definitely a blessing from God. I believe once saved, always saved, and I’ve read your comments concerning the same. I think you do a wonderful job explaining OSAS in them.

The one thing that came to my mind when reading them though, and I didn’t see any comments on, but maybe I just missed it, was how Romans 11:17-24 plays into OSAS, if at all. Could and would you please shed some light on this for me?

Answer: The point of Romans 11:17-24 is belief by faith. The Jews relied on their heritage and their works to win God’s favor. Neither is acceptable and they were like dead branches, broken off from the root. Gentiles are grafted in by faith and sustained by the root.

But if a Gentile tries to be grafted in because he thinks he’s replaced the Jews, or because of his good works, he’ll be broken off just like the Jews were. Conversely, if a Jew comes by faith he can be grafted in again. Salvation can only be achieved through faith in the Lord’s completed work, whether we’re Jew or Gentile.

And more....

OSAS And Romans 11:22
By Jack Kelley

Question: Romans:11:22 contains the phrase, “Otherwise you also will be cut off.” So does this mean that we can we lose our salvation, If we do not continue in His goodness?

Answer: In Romans 8:38-39 Paul said nothing can separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. In 2 Cor. 1:21-22 he said it’s God who makes us stand firm in Christ. He has set His mark of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee of the things to come. In Ephes 1:13-14 he said we were included in Christ when we believed, and were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Who a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

How then could he say we will lose our salvation if we do not continue in his goodness? After all, he wrote each of these verses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The answer is we can’t. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root.

Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/osas-romans-1122/

 

[Rick1950]

You can read below about the symbols in Revelation 12. Gentile believers do not equal Israel.

The first symbol in chapter 12 is “a woman clothed with the sun,” with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head (12:1). Many different interpretations have been given of this imagery. Some commentators claim that this woman represents the Church. Catholics claim she is Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Here is a classic example of why it is important to let the Bible interpret itself, wherever possible. The point is that this imagery comes right out of Joseph’s dream in Genesis 37, where the sun stood for Jacob, the moon for Rachel, and the stars for Joseph’s brothers (Genesis 37:9-11). So, we can conclude that this woman represents the nation of Israel, the descendants of Jacob.

The woman is pregnant and is about to give birth. This refers to Israel providing the Messiah to the world. In verse 3 “a great red dragon,” which is Satan, tries to devour “a male child” when He is born – which, of course, is exactly what Satan tried to do when he motivated King Herod to send his army to Bethlehem to kill all the babies at the time of Jesus’ birth. But the male child, Jesus, is “caught up to God and to His throne” (the Ascension) where He waits “to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (12:5).

These verses remind us that there is a great cosmic struggle going on over the dominion of planet earth. God originally gave that dominion to Man (Genesis 1:28), but it was stolen by Satan when Adam and Eve gave in to his temptation and rebelled against God. Consequently, Satan is now “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31) and “the whole world lies in the power of the evil on” (1 John 5:19).

But one of the reasons Jesus died on the Cross was to make it possible for Man to reassert his rightful dominion over the earth. This is one of the many delayed benefits of the Cross (our glorified bodies being another one). Jesus will reclaim dominion over the earth when He returns at the end of the Tribulation. We saw Him doing that in the flash-forward about the “strong angel” in chapter 10. In chapter 5 verse 13 we are told that the heavenly hosts sing about that glorious day: “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-mysterious-woman/

And for the OSAS this will be helpful:

OSAS And Romans 11
By Jack Kelley

Question: Thank you so much for your website and ministry to the Lord. It is definitely a blessing from God. I believe once saved, always saved, and I’ve read your comments concerning the same. I think you do a wonderful job explaining OSAS in them.

The one thing that came to my mind when reading them though, and I didn’t see any comments on, but maybe I just missed it, was how Romans 11:17-24 plays into OSAS, if at all. Could and would you please shed some light on this for me?

Answer: The point of Romans 11:17-24 is belief by faith. The Jews relied on their heritage and their works to win God’s favor. Neither is acceptable and they were like dead branches, broken off from the root. Gentiles are grafted in by faith and sustained by the root.

But if a Gentile tries to be grafted in because he thinks he’s replaced the Jews, or because of his good works, he’ll be broken off just like the Jews were. Conversely, if a Jew comes by faith he can be grafted in again. Salvation can only be achieved through faith in the Lord’s completed work, whether we’re Jew or Gentile.

And more....

OSAS And Romans 11:22
By Jack Kelley

Question: Romans:11:22 contains the phrase, “Otherwise you also will be cut off.” So does this mean that we can we lose our salvation, If we do not continue in His goodness?

Answer: In Romans 8:38-39 Paul said nothing can separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. In 2 Cor. 1:21-22 he said it’s God who makes us stand firm in Christ. He has set His mark of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee of the things to come. In Ephes 1:13-14 he said we were included in Christ when we believed, and were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Who a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

How then could he say we will lose our salvation if we do not continue in his goodness? After all, he wrote each of these verses through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The answer is we can’t. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root.

Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/osas-romans-1122/

Chris, I appreciate your response. However, I fear it is less than satisfactory. i.e. it does not address my primary question: What is this cultivated olive tree. I would also like to respond to some of the points you and Jack Kelly provided.

1. First, I'll talk about your response. I appreciate that you agree with me the woman and child in Revelation 12 represent Israel and Jesus. You didn't mention but I assume that you also agree with my assessment that her "other offspring" is the church - btw, seemingly indicating that the church is still present in the 7 year period. However, I'm struggling to understand the relevance of your last paragraph although I certainly agree with it.

2. Re: Jack's first answer, a branch does not try to be grafted in. The person tending the tree does the grafting. In this case, the gentile has been grafted in by faith. After that, s/he is cut out. I believe Jack is incorrect in understanding that the gentiles are grafted in by good works just because the gentile erroneously believes this is possible. God (or Jesus) has grafted the gentile into the olive tree because s/he believed. Jack continues this error in his second answer.

3. Re: Jack's second answer, I am aware of all of the scriptures used for the OSAS doctrine. Romans 8:38-39 says nothing can separate us but doesn't say we can't separate ourselves. But, I see 2 Cor 1:21-22 and Eph 1:13-14 as being very compelling. And yet, if we agree that scripture is without error and cannot contradict itself, we are left with a dichotomy: scripture that indicates OSAS and then Romans 11 and John 15 that clearly indicate a grafted branch can be cut out - i.e. believer can become a non-believer and lose their destiny in the New Earth. If OSAS is correct, what do we do with Romans 11 and John 15 (other than using fallacious reasoning). Likewise, if Romans and John are correct, what do we do with 2 Cor and Eph. That's why this is called discussion, I suppose.

Either way, I'm still left wondering what this olive tree represents.

 

[Chris]

You can read all about it in more depth here. But we are not going to argue against OSAS. We are a OSAS forums. You'll need to go somewhere else if you want to argue against OSAS. We also do not support replacement theology if that is where you are trying to go. This is per the forums rules you agreed to when you signed up here.

https://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Romans_9-11/09_Romans_11_16-24/notes/09_Romans_11_16-24.htm

Romans 11:16-24 - Two Olive Trees​

11:16 - The Branches are Holy​

• "if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy"
  Paul makes an analogy based on the Old Testament practice of setting aside the first of one's increase to God (Ex. 22:29; 23:19; Nu. 15:20). By setting aside the firstfruits to God, the entire portion was considered dedicated or set apart. By honoring God with the very first increase, God would respond and bless subsequent production and the entire crop was set apart for God's increase. Holiness includes the idea of separation or setting aside.
  
• "if the root is holy so are the branches"
  The "root" upholds and sustains the branches. The root of the cultivated olive tree is considered to be holy and therefore so are the branches.

11:17 - Broken Branches​

• "some of the branches were broken off"
  Paul declares all the branches to be "holy" prior to some of the branches being broken off.
  
• Three Entities
  The natural branches are the Jews--the nation of Israel.
  1) Natural Branches - Some of the natural branches are broken off. These are the unbelieving Jews who rejected Jesus. These are the "not all Israel who are of Israel" (Rom. 9:6) who Jesus mentions as being members of the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). The remaining natural branches are believing Jews which Paul refers to elsewhere as "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16).
  2) Wild Branches - The wild branches are Gentiles, some of which came to faith and became grafted into the cultivated olive tree.
  3) Root and Fatness - The root and fatness is the base of the cultivated olive tree which supports all the branches in the tree, both grafted and natural. This represents the promises and covenants given through the fathers (see diagram below).
  
• Grafted Into a Cultivated Olive Tree
  
  

11:18 - The Root Supports You​

• "do not boast"
  "Boast" is katakauchō meaning "to look down on," "to despise," indicating a feeling of comparative superiority.
  
• "the root supports you"
  The root of a plant provides the very basis for the continued survival of the branches. The root can survive without the branches--even sprouting new branches, but the branches are absolutely dependent upon the root.
  
• Salvation is of the Jews
  The covenants of promise, such as the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 12:3), and the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31), were given to the Jews --through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Believing Gentiles only participate on account of their identity with Jesus Christ, Himself the ultimate representative of Israel.

11:19-20 - Do Not be Haughty​

• "... you stand by faith. Do not be haughty"
  Do not think highly of yourself because the means by which you were grafted in the place of the broken off natural branches is faith alone. Your salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God given without regard for merit (Eph. 2:8-9).

11:21 - He May Not Spare You​

• Natural Branches Favored
  The natural branches were cultivated by God. The Jews occupied a favored position according to God's election of the nation Israel (Deu. 7:6-8; 14:1-2; Ps. 135:4).
  
• Even Natural Branches Were Not Spared
  Even though the natural branches had been cultivated by God and given tremendous promises, faith was still required in order to remain in the olive tree. Paul emphasizes that if it was possible for God to break off natural branches which have an affinity for the cultivated tree, how much easier it would be to break off the wild branches only recently grafted in!

11:22 - Goodness and Severity​

• "on those who fell, severity"
  God's severity fell on those Jews who failed to exercise faith and rejected Messiah Jesus at His presentation to Israel (Zec. 9:9; Mat. 21:4-5).
  
• "toward you, goodness"
  The Gentiles of faith must remember that they only occupy their position in the tree because of God's unmerited grace. In both severity or goodness, it is God's sovereignty which ultimately is the source of what has taken place. If some of the natural branches fell, so could some of the wild branches!
  
• "if you continue... otherwise you also will be cut off"
  In the same way that individuals among Israel did not continue in faith and fell from God's grace, so too will it be with the Gentiles. This verse reinforces the scriptural truth that true faith continues whereas professed faith may wane and show itself for that which it truly is--not faith at all. Therefore, Paul exhorts believers to examine themselves to see whether they are in the faith (2Cor. 13:5). Those who are truly saved cannot lose their salvation:
  1) They are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their redemption (2Cor. 1:21-22; 5:4-6; Eph. 1:13-14).
  2) They have eternal life having passed from death to life (John 5:24).
  3) Those who 'fall away' were never known by Jesus (Mat. 7:21-23).

11:23 - Grafted In Again​

• "if they do not continue in unbelief"
  Israel has not fallen permanently to be "replaced by the Church." If Israel, as a nation of individuals, comes to faith by some means, then God is able to graft them into the natural olive tree again. As we will shortly see, this is the very thing predicted by Scripture (Rom. 11:25-26).

11:24 - Their Own Olive Tree​

• "grafted contrary to nature"
  The Torah (Law of Moses), and various other promises and covenants were not given to the Gentiles, but to Israel (Eph. 2:11-13). It is not "natural" for Gentiles to be partaking in what is essentially a Jewish faith (Christianity) founded on a Jewish promise -- the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31). It is only by God's grace and the faith of Gentiles in Jesus, Himself born a Jew, that this situation has come to exist.
  
• "how much more these"
  Never forget that the future task of turning the unbelieving among Israel back to faith prior to the Second Coming will be considerably easier than what God accomplished at the First Coming of Christ when the Gentiles came to faith in what is essentially a foreign Jewish Messiah: Jesus.
  
• "grafted into their own olive tree"
  Writing after the cross and the rejection of Messiah Jesus by the majority in Israel, Paul still refers to the cultivated olive tree as the Jews' "own tree." The tree and the promises associated with the root are theirs and we who are believing Gentiles are the outsiders who, by God's grace, are participating in their promises (Rom. 9:4; Eph 2:12).

Application ​

1. Salvation is of the Jews - Take note: believing Gentiles are not called "natural branches," but rather "wild branches" grafted in among believing Jews. This is a clear indication of the Jewishness of the roots of Christianity. As Gentiles, we should seek to understand the Jewish context of Christianity in order to better understand Scripture. Also: the fact that we, as clueless Gentiles, have come to faith in a Jewish Messiah through Jewish Scriptures should tell us just how easily God can graft Jews back into their position as people of faith.
   
2. If the Root is Holy, so are the Branches - All branches, even those broken off by God, are "holy" in the sense of being set aside to fulfill God's purpose for the nation. We will see in the next few verses that even nonbelieving Jews, as part of Israel, are to be loved on account of their role in the plan and purpose of God.
   
3. Believing Gentiles are not the "New Israel" - Israel is the same old Israel. The analogy Paul uses involves three main components, not two: (1) the natural branches (Jews); (2) the wild branches (Gentiles); and (3) the root and fatness which supports them both (the promises and convenants via the fathers). The wild branches (believing Gentiles) do not become natural branches (Jews). Nor are they grafted into the natural branches. both natural and wild branches participate in the root and fatness. Both wild and natural branches are joined into the same cultivated tree. This is a removal of the wall of separation between the natural and wild branches forming "one new man from the two" (Eph. 2:15).

Further....

You didn't mention but I assume that you also agree with my assessment that her "other offspring" is the church - btw, seemingly indicating that the church is still present in the 7 year period.

No, the church is removed before the time and place of God's wrath and judgment. So no, the church is NOT in the 7 year Tribulation period nor is it around in Revelation 12. We are a pre-trib forum. We do not support nor allow arguing alternative views here.

Thread closed. Please go read the forum rules before posting again. Thank you.