What exactly was Satan's motive?

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Hol

Worships Him
Good morning everyone!

Dave, thank you for this thread, I haven't logged on for some time, but this conversation has helped me so I'm hoping that I can share some things I'm learning.

First, I've been reading the book of Ecclesiastics and want to quote from chapter three:

16And moreover I saw under the sun, in the place of justice, that wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, that wickedness was there. 17I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.

I lack in understanding, and welcome learning through asking questions. One aspect of Christ's sacrifice that your thread has really encouraged me in, is to consider how He was fulfilling His word in such a spectacular way.

As Abraham demonstrated faith in offering Issac, there was complete trust that God would raise him from the dead. Issac was not a child at the time, and trusted his father's authority. In seeing Christ's willingness to obey, we are given a glimpse into the temptation as He sweat great drops of blood and sought another way if possible. Perhaps He was wrestling with the thought of how unworthy mankind is? That's how I react to rejection. Undoubtedly the agony of separation from our Father caused Him to sweat great drops of blood.

The Son of Man, Jesus in His perfection was both able to not sin, and not able to sin. He remained singularly humble in His relation to His oneness as God, Phil. 2:6-7 who existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men...

His obedience seals the truth that God is love. When I consider Satan's motive for Peter's appeal that Jesus not endure the cross, it reminds me of times I'm tempted to find comfort in misguided loyalties. An appeal to my sense of self-pity. Jesus had His faithfulness looking to God's will despite having to go it alone.

The book of Job portrays a man who did not deserve tremendous suffering. I love how God spoke to him in a manner that emphasized His sovereignity and Job stopped feeling sorry for himself. His three friends had attacked Job suggesting some secret sin, and in ways they remind me of the way of Cain, 'Do good works like us.' They seemed a bit jealous of Job. I'd like to think that Job proved to Satan that despite excessive loss, he didn't curse God, but trusted Him. I don't imagine that good evidence, good reason & logic can convince Satan because what we all need to learn is faith that trusts and surrenders.

Jesus in sacrificing Himself for a death He didn't deserve required something beyond normal friendship love, family loyalty/love. His love for our Father, His deep respect for His authority, and courage to perform His promises that ultimately glorify God are qualities that I don't read Satan possesses. Satan has so much more intelligence and power that even Archangel Michael responds to him in Jesus's powerful name. Does he posses an understanding of a willing loving obedience to God?

Your question about Judas betraying Jesus has me stumped, why Satan did that I'm unable to think of except that murderers and thieves do those things as they glory in those things.

God is sovereign so things happen according to His will, but I think it's His love that best characterizes Who He is, and best exalts Christ.

Based on your thread I've wondered if Adam and Eve asked God why He didn't prevent their temptation? Once they had given birth to Seth I think they had matured and began calling on the name of the Lord with loving understanding of how forgiven they were, and how God would provide a way for us out of our sin mess.

Maybe my favorite meditation from this thread is seeing how Jesus demonstrated love to us while we were lost in our own pride, rebellion, lusts; and triumphed openly over death. When I think of God restricting Satan from taking Job's life I understand that Satan doesn't love God or us. Huge understatement, but it causes me to reflect on how much Jesus does!

Sorry if some of these thoughts are disjointed, I'm in a rush to head off to work & can't proofread now.

Prayers & hugs for everyone on RF
 

Saved and Waiting

Well-Known Member
Good morning,



This isn't accurate... When Peter said "never not you" it was during the ministry of the Lord, when Peter denied the Lord three times it was during the trial of the Messiah. Two mutually exclusive events.

What I think is important about the "never not you account", is that it is identified by the Lord as a Satanic ploy and is admonished. If it's a Satanic ploy, then Satan was obviously interested in somehow influencing either the Lord, or the other people around the Lord towards the coming crucifixion. Since your honoring the foresight of Jesus... then how does the foresight of Jesus factor into what happened here?

Good morning, Dave! I don't usually copy and paste other's studies but this one by Jack is, I believe, better said than I could. I don't know if you ever have gone to the Grace thru faith website but I have enjoyed Jack's insight and teaching for many years as I know many Rapture Ready members have indicated.

A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” (Mark 8:31-33)

In Matthew’s version of this exchange we can read what Peter said to cause such a strong response. His reaction to the Lord’s prophecy had been, “Never, Lord! This shall never happen to you!” (Matt. 16:22). It was an emotional statement, made on the spur of the moment out of a desire to protect the Lord from harm, and spoken with pure motives. You or I might have said something like, “Over my dead body!”

Although the Lord’s response was strong in the extreme it wasn’t off the top of His head like Peter’s had been. Remember, Jesus could not say anything on His own. Instead, He explained, “Whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say” (John 12:50).

Was Jesus saying that no matter how well intended or pure of motive, if what we say doesn’t conform to the will of God, but instead reflects the desires of men, then it’s really from Satan? Let’s find out.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14).


So yes, I do believe Satan was influencing Peter and no, I don't believe Satan did or is able to influence Jesus.


You and mattfivefour have both brought up similar to same points here so I quoted them together as to acknowledge them both.
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So... I do think it's impossible for Satan to have realized the "plan of salvation" of God, because some facets of the plan of God were as of yet unrevealed. However, the very context of the passage we're examining from the OP has the LordGodJesus explaining to the disciples how he must be delivered to the authorities and killed, and raised on the third day (Matt. 16:21). In response to this revelation, Satan (in my opinion, judging by the response of Jesus) influences Peter to say "NEVER, not YOU!".

Here's a question for you both... If, Satan knew the Jesus was marching towards the cross, and if Satan realized the magnitude of the situation (because Jesus was explaining it to His disciples), and if Satan knew that Jesus would raise Himself on the third day. If Satan knew that Jesus was in complete control of this event (Jn. 10:18), then how could Satan stop it?

In answer to your question above. You are correct that Satan knows scripture but the disciples had been taught by Jesus Himself during His three year ministry. Imagine spending three years hearing all that Jesus taught them. But many times, they still did not understand some of the things He told them would happen and must happen. May I ask why you believe that Satan may have known all of what was happening and that he was privy to all of Jesus' conversations with His disciples? I do not believe Satan knew the magnitude of the situation...I do believe Satan thought himself to be like God and know everything. He didn't and there were limits that God put on what Satan could do to mankind such as having to ask permission to test Job. To answer your question "how could Satan stop it", he couldn't. That hasn't stopped him from trying to thwart God and try to stop what God says must happen. I believe Satan really believes he can still "win" and that he, not God, is in control.

Think about it this way... everyone (including yourselves) are focusing on the Omniscience of God (which is fantastic). But, what about the Omnipotence of God? Do you think that Satan for one second could have done anything what-so-ever to stop Jesus from getting to the cross? So... What would have Satan "doing everything in his power" to stop God from going to the cross amounted to? A BB gun shooting an aircraft carrier... right?

Again, no. Satan could do nothing to stop Jesus from getting to the cross. But his hatefulness toward God and anything or anyone who belongs to God, drives him to keep trying. Also, he certainly wants to influence anyone who is not saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit. He will be defiant even in the Lake of Fire...but he will bend his knee and acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the future.

If Satan knew that Jesus was going to raise Himself on the third day.... What did Satan expect would happen? Why did Satan influence Peter to say "never, not you". Why did Satan inspire the events in the way that he did in "betraying" the Lord God Jesus?

Again, if Satan knew that Jesus would be raised the third day, if he knew the full extent of what was to come, he would have tried to keep Jesus from dying for the sins of the world. He didn't know everything because if he did...his intelligence failed him miserable in this, as well as other instances. No one can out-maneuver or thwart what God says will happen. So while we humans and all the angels were given free-will, there are many things God will not allow and many things He knows and has not revealed, to us or Satan.
According to scripture, Satan prowls around causing destruction and devouring what he deems needs devouring and destroyed. Again, I believe Satan still believes he can outsmart everyone, including God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. His 5 "I will" statements are quite revealing and I would encourage all here that have not heard or read of these to get out your Bibles and find where they are and study them.


Thoughts? Not that I need to remind anyone... but Satan was learning from God through the revelations of the prophets as well, right? And Satan was learning from Jesus, right?

If Satan was learning from God the Father and God the Son through the revelations of the prophets, and he does know scripture which I know we are told, could you please explain to me why a highly esteemed angel, with great beauty and prominence, and intelligence would not understand that rebelling would not be the intelligent thing to do? Something more was going on inside Satan...he wasn't content with his high standing and responsibility to his Creator and thought he could do better than God...that shows me didn't care what God or anyone else thought and knew...that God was God and Satan was an angel created by God.

I appreciate your responses Savedandwaiting. I can also empathize with your lack of interest "I really don't care or expect to know all of Satan's thoughts or motives". But since you're taking time to interact with the topic, and if it suits you, please do take a little time to examine what it is I'm pointing out here. Also, keep in mind the purposes I gave in the OP.

God bless your studies,
Dave
 
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Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
You beat me too it.... The King of Tyre is the launch pad, in my estimation, where God then goes right to the heart of the matter and addresses Satan himself.

Good to see you Jonathan! :heythere I think your posts contributed in generating good discussion. :)

Prayers & hugs for everyone on RF

Hol!!!!:bouncies Glad to see you again! :)


As far as motives with our enemy. I would venture to guess that our enemy sought to bring pain and harm personally to God ultimately. While harm was certainly intended towards Adam and Eve, of whom they enjoyed favor and close relationship with God, and harm is intended for all humans for the same potential reason, ultimately all harm directed towards humans whether in Christ or not is intended to bring pain and harm to God directly.

To be able to use the very entities God has determined to show His love to in directly and physically harming the Creator of the universe, Jesus Christ, must have been quite the event for our enemy. However, in that very act of our enemy that the Lord allowed, Salvation of many was made possible.
 

DaveS

Well-Known Member
Dave, thank you for this thread, I haven't logged on for some time, but this conversation has helped me so I'm hoping that I can share some things I'm learning.

Good morning Hol,

Nice to hear from you. I remember you... from other discussions I've had on this board, and I always appreciate your approach and genuineness.

I lack in understanding, and welcome learning through asking questions.

Glad to hear it, I enjoy learning that way too. Even though I'm strongly opinionated in certain areas, asking questions allows a discussion to churn without forcing people to react to me or my opinions. I've been honing that skill over the years... it definitely takes some practice. :)

Your question about Judas betraying Jesus has me stumped, why Satan did that I'm unable to think of except that murderers and thieves do those things as they glory in those things.

One thing that I've suggested through-out this thread is that I think that Satan has been learning through-out God's revelation. Another thing I've suggested is that Satan is well aware of his impotency towards God... If I were to just blurt out something, reveal my opinion, put myself out there for open evaluation, I would say that Satan aims to show or prove that God's Omniscience is not compatible with His Omni-Benevolence. Think about this for a second... If God's Omniscience were not compatible with His Omni-Benevolence, then God could not be Just.

In the instance of the cross, Satan did not have information... there were things unrevealed. If Satan were acting, and Satan were formulating a plan of attack (which I believe he was), how would he go about it with the information he had?

Based on your thread I've wondered if Adam and Eve asked God why He didn't prevent their temptation?

I think Adam knew... (I Tim. 2:14). And I'm interacting with this because I find it very relevant to the very questions of the OP. Satan attacked in the garden. He attacked a particular point. Why did he attack there? What did He expect God to do? Why did God not act? Was God really silent? If God is Omni-Benevolent, was it good that He allowed this? Could this have been done any other way?

Who was watching all of this transpire in the garden? Who was God talking to when He said, "Behold! The man has become like one of us".

Could Satan's attack in the garden be similar to that in the gospel account I brought up? I asked, "What was Satan expecting to happen?" in the OP. When Satan attacks, does he expect reactions from His Creator? When Satan attacks, what kind of targets does he choose?

Job is an interesting story when you factor some of these questions in. Satan the accuser...

Thoughts?

God bless your studies my friend,
Dave
 

greg64

Well-Known Member
First things first -- great to see you jump in Hol!!!

I still haven't taken time to really go through this, but since Dave was kind enough to give us a little more to chew on and where he personally is going with this, I'll take a couple of shots from the latest round of questions posed:

In the instance of the cross, Satan did not have information... there were things unrevealed. If Satan were acting, and Satan were formulating a plan of attack (which I believe he was), how would he go about it with the information he had?

Following the line of thought, anything to try to provoke God to act in a way that betrays or contradicts any of His attributes. Going back to the temptation in the wilderness, we see attacks against Jesus based on physical need/hunger, an easier way to get what He was going to get anyway without going to the cross (kingdoms of the world), and pride in His own person and station (throw yourself down and legions of angels will catch you). The thing I'm realizing here is that by answering each temptation with scripture, Jesus was not only setting us an example but also telling his adversary that he knew the plan and wasn't about to deviate from it. I kind of see the same line of attacks in what Peter said as well as forcing things through at the Cross. The marvelous thing is God anticipated and defeated all of this before Adam was even created.

Satan attacked in the garden. He attacked a particular point. Why did he attack there? What did He expect God to do? Why did God not act? Was God really silent? If God is Omni-Benevolent, was it good that He allowed this? Could this have been done any other way?

Did God really say... he attacked God's character and the veracity of His word. I don't know what he expected, but perhaps it was for God to intervene and stop the fall. To make the stakes so high and painful that God would think twice and decide not to go through with it. After all, whether the enemy knew it at the time or not, this was the event we can point to that put Jesus on the path to the cross.

As to the last two questions, by definition yes and no. It was good because God is omni-benevolent, and the enemy keeps trying to get Him to take another way. I suspect, but can't prove, that a deeper answer goes to why the Earth and man were created in the first place. What Hal Lindsey (I think it was Hal) had to say here resonates with me.

Who was watching all of this transpire in the garden? Who was God talking to when He said, "Behold! The man has become like one of us".

Certainly Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Probably most/all of the unfallen angels as well.

Could Satan's attack in the garden be similar to that in the gospel account I brought up? I asked, "What was Satan expecting to happen?" in the OP. When Satan attacks, does he expect reactions from His Creator? When Satan attacks, what kind of targets does he choose?

I think I probably hit on this one enough trying to respond to the others. Very interested in what others have to say and where this thread goes next!
 

DaveS

Well-Known Member
Good afternoon Greg64,

Did God really say... he attacked God's character and the veracity of His word.

He also attacked Eve. And through his attack on Eve he corrupted what was good. In a sense, he murdered her... Much like in a sense, he murdered a host of angels.

Satan murders, God saves.

Back to the question of the OP... Did Satan think his time was short? Did Satan have any doubts that God would rise from the grave on the 3rd day? Did Satan think that his judgment was pending? Did he think that God was going to end sin?

Was he furious (Rev. 12:12)? Was there any satisfaction to him in the results of the ministry of the LordGodJesus? Was he satisfied or was he preparing to kill even more?

Thoughts?

Kind regards,
Dave
 

Hol

Worships Him
One thing that I've suggested through-out this thread is that I think that Satan has been learning through-out God's revelation. Another thing I've suggested is that Satan is well aware of his impotency towards God... If I were to just blurt out something, reveal my opinion, put myself out there for open evaluation, I would say that Satan aims to show or prove that God's Omniscience is not compatible with His Omni-Benevolence. Think about this for a second... If God's Omniscience were not compatible with His Omni-Benevolence, then God could not be Just.

In the instance of the cross, Satan did not have information... there were things unrevealed. If Satan were acting, and Satan were formulating a plan of attack (which I believe he was), how would he go about it with the information he had?

Thank you Dave.

(Big hugs to Jonathan, EL, & Greg!)

Do satanic influences work toward bringing us to doubt the Omniscience of God in light of His Omni-Benevolence? Yes, in everyday life through media, even through our own friends / families / churches, our own struggles with sin and times when we forget how deceptive our own hearts are. In the case of Eve falling for deception, there was only one God given condition in the age of innocence: Do not eat of the tree of knowledge. She did not understand how loving and full of truth God is, so found it tempting that she should be as a god herself -- yet her thinking was off kilter due to temptation. Adam followed suit with deliberate choice. But, our Heavenly Father loved Adam & Eve with pure all-powerful love, giving us all Genesis 3:15, the promise of a coming Savior.

From Arnold Fruchtembaum's The Book of Genesis (Ariel's Bible Commentary) p 95; his description regarding Satan's attack on Eve and Adam in Genesis 3:1-5:
"Satan's methodology was threefold: First , he raised doubts as to the wisdom, justice, and love of God; second, he made a direct contradiction of the Word of God; and third, he claimed that disobedience to God will result in the highest good. However, in reality, Adam and Eve will know good and evil only from the standpoint of sinners. Roman's 7:19 teaches that Paul knew the good but was unable to do it. He also knew the evil, but was unable to resist it. Adam and Eve will know the evil, but will be unable to resist it."

Dave, the following short Bible story that so many of us love, brings out the heroic faith we all aspire to, a fear of God that is an immediate response to temptation and grounded in trust:

Genesis 39:6b-9
Now Joseph was handsome in form and appearance. 7It came about after these events that his master’s wife looked with desire at Joseph, and she said, “Lie with me.” 8But he refused and said to his master’s wife, “Behold, with me here, my master does not concern himself with anything in the house, and he has put all that he owns in my charge. 9“There is no one greater in this house than I, and he has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do this great evil and sin against God?”

If we want to dig for true motives regarding Satan's attempts to prove God is not both able to be both omniscient and love, we can avoid relying on our understanding and read our Bibles where we find real stories of men and women choosing whether or not they fear God in loving trust.

And respectfully remember that we are unable to understand many things. Isaiah 55.

My question for you Dave is if you may have a strong opinion that entertaining the debates over more philosophical ideas like Molinism, or middle knowledge are healthy? (Hopefully I'm wrong about what your questions are sourced from.)

Thanks Dave for your honesty and responses. I know I have much to learn, and appreciate your interactions!
 

DaveS

Well-Known Member
My question for you Dave is if you may have a strong opinion that entertaining the debates over more philosophical ideas like Molinism, or middle knowledge are healthy? (Hopefully I'm wrong about what your questions are sourced from.)

Good morning Hol,

No, I'm not trying to find a back-door way to introduce Molinism here, nor am I an adherent of it. What I'm interested in, is how Satan reacts based on information that God reveals while knowing certain things about the character of God... I'm assuming that Satan knows certain things, such as the characteristics of God.

It's actually rather interesting that this would come up, since there are actually a couple of instances where I feel I've done a pretty good job of diluting and or disputing some ideas that could be considered Molinistic in nature.

In my opinion, through-out the thread, I've entertained certain rabbit that were relevant in some way to the original question of the OP, and quite frankly were kinda interesting. What I think I've done however, is continuously steer the discussion back toward the OP. And the OP asserts that Satan formulates a strategy (strategies) around the progressive revelations of God. What I think this says about me, and my philosophical ideas and viewpoints, is that Satan is reacting to the determinism of God.

Since it appears I've aroused your suspicion, and quite possibly through this suspicion I may be viewed in a certain light by others who respect you, and don't know me. Let me reveal a little more of the theory I hold towards the question of the OP. Maybe this will help to ease any questions you have about my motivations.

I think it's a pretty valid theory to believe that Israel rejecting the Messiah was seen as a major victory to Satan... I believe that Satan worked hard, and smart, to introduce false ideas to the Jewish people/leadership that would lead to the rejection of JesusGod. I think that Satan expected God to judge Israel, and I think he was expecting some measure of finality. I think that Satan was preparing even more deceit, especially through means of the Messiah's intent of the crucifixion, in order to maximize the amount of damage he could do to Israel in particular (since prophetically the nation was the center point of the covenants and their provisions)... I don't think that Satan wanted the Messiah to go to the cross, and I think he formulated a plan to thwart it. All of the wiles of Satan were futile though, and were used against him, since he's dealing with Omniscient God. (as an aside, I don't believe for a nano-second that Jesus tried to avoid the cross).

I hope this will add to the interest of my questions... there's a lot of detail to be filled in, and I like hearing people do it (it helps me). I also hope this will help ease an tension felt towards me and any suspicion that I may be pushing an unorthodox viewpoint.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Calvinist, don't pretended to be, but I am a determinist. I'm not an Arminian, don't pretend to be, but I do account for the will of man.

I would think a lot of people would agree with me on these things without resorting to Molinism.

Kind regards,
Dave
 

Hol

Worships Him
Since it appears I've aroused your suspicion, and quite possibly through this suspicion I may be viewed in a certain light by others who respect you, and don't know me. Let me reveal a little more of the theory I hold towards the question of the OP. Maybe this will help to ease any questions you have about my motivations.

Dave, first thank you for responding & flushing out that I was nervous about Molinism (you certainly have countered it well), I was beginning to think that I'd killed another thread!:oops: I am so sorry if I offended you!

I think it's a pretty valid theory to believe that Israel rejecting the Messiah was seen as a major victory to Satan... I believe that Satan worked hard, and smart, to introduce false ideas to the Jewish people/leadership that would lead to the rejection of JesusGod. I think that Satan expected God to judge Israel, and I think he was expecting some measure of finality. I think that Satan was preparing even more deceit, especially through means of the Messiah's intent of the crucifixion, in order to maximize the amount of damage he could do to Israel in particular (since prophetically the nation was the center point of the covenants and their provisions)... I don't think that Satan wanted the Messiah to go to the cross, and I think he formulated a plan to thwart it. All of the wiles of Satan were futile though, and were used against him, since he's dealing with Omniscient God. (as an aside, I don't believe for a nano-second that Jesus tried to avoid the cross).

This is interesting to imagine that Satan may have expected a finality of God's judgement upon Israel. Israel is only going to enjoy salvation because God promised they would, and one day they will embrace Jesus.

In the painful trials of Job there was a challenge issued by Satan to prove that Job only held a superficial reverence and love for God. Job did have much to learn about God's sovereignity, yet his faith held.

As I've enjoyed most of your posts (when unfettered by my suspicion about Molinism) and there was an interesting idea about Peter's appeal to Jesus, 'no, not You Lord' that caused me to ask myself 'what if an appeal to a brotherhood loyalty played a part in 1/3 of the angels following Satan?' I think the Tower of Bable was an appeal to a brotherhood loyalty. It is very powerful, and has led many astray.

Destruction of Israel as an objective seems to fit Satan's goal. Daniel's 70th week clearly requires an Israel restored and many books, including Ezekiel describe a reconciliation and fulfillment of David's throne reigning on the earth!

In understanding that Satan possesses great intelligence, how would he see the Hebrew Bible foretelling Israel's future? However, he did not have the benefit of these two key things: 1) the Book of the Revelation of Christ, and 2) the mystery of the church. Perhaps he expected that God, suffering the loss of His Son, the only innocence on earth; would cease to use Israel for His witness of salvation to all man. Indeed He did, but in the interlude He choose to witness through the church! Soon, the 144,000 Jewish witnesses will take over and salvation will flood the earth.

Sidenote: I'm not sure if Satan wanted Jesus crucified or not, but it seems he may have strategized to put an end to Israel.
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
I say that because if he'd known what would happen, he wouldn't have done it.

One may assume Satan is smart and knows this or that, and he is no doubt, but I don't think he believes God. I think he's too smart, proud and wise for that. God said Satan would strike His heel but He would crush satans head. I think satan basically said "yeah, right". We see what happens to people who do t like to retain knowledge of God, they are given over to a reprobate mind. How much worse for cherubim? Satans crazy.
 

DaveS

Well-Known Member
Hey Dave,

I think Satan did want Jesus to go to the cross.

I don't think he expected the resurrection.

Good morning,

You're not alone, I think the majority of people may side with you.

There's a lot of evidence I believe to the contrary. One point of evidence is "never not you". Another point of evidence is that Jesus plainly taught that He would go to the cross, and that He would raise Himself on the third day. How could Satan not expect it when Jesus taught it? Did Jesus say it during Satan's coffee break? (I'm just picking... :) ) What begs the question... is why did Satan indwell Judas and hand God over to the authorities? This I assume is the strongest evidence that Satan did want the Messiah to go to the cross. Even though it wouldn't make sense for him (Satan) to want something that God had decreed would happen.

Think about this... If Jesus said that He must be delivered, crucified, and raised on the third day. Was it hopeful? Was it said by Him (perish the thought) in a squeamish manner (hoping He could avoid it)? Was it prophetic? Was He resolute? Can Jesus lie? Would it be a lie for God to say something prophetically and for it not to be absolutely true?

Did Satan know these questions? Did he know the answers?

My answer (Satan didn't want Jesus to go to the cross) is actually incomplete (sorry...). I don't think he wanted Jesus to go to the cross, but I don't think he thought he could stop Him from going to the cross. If you're Satan, and Omnipotent God is marching towards the cross (emphasis on Omnipotent), how do you stop Him? Do you put up road flares? Maybe stand in front of Him?

In a previous post, I mentioned something that I think is important to consider. Nobody interacted with it.

What exactly was Satan's motive? (Link)

I'm wondering if you may have seen it? If not... What do you think of this information?

Thanks for the reply,
Dave
 
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DaveS

Well-Known Member
Dave, first thank you for responding & flushing out that I was nervous about Molinism (you certainly have countered it well), I was beginning to think that I'd killed another thread!:oops: I am so sorry if I offended you!

Good morning Ms. Hol,

I'm not offended. Thanks for your graciousness.

This is interesting to imagine that Satan may have expected a finality of God's judgement upon Israel. Israel is only going to enjoy salvation because God promised they would, and one day they will embrace Jesus.

However, he did not have the benefit of these two key things: 1) the Book of the Revelation of Christ, and 2) the mystery of the church.

I put these two thoughts together... because the mysteries revealed in the NT are (I think) of paramount importance to this thread, and biblical Christianity for that matter. I've been driving at that in a few of my posts. Satan could only work with the information revealed, so the progressive nature of God's revelation is part of His (to borrow from Paul) "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!". The mystery of Israel's hardening is another key aspect, to add to your list... among other mysteries, such as the mystery of "the lawless one" (II Thes. 2:1-12).

By the way... The mysteries of God should yank one out of Molinism by the ears, while twisting, and swatting them on the rump for good measure. ;) in my humble opinion.

As I've enjoyed most of your posts (when unfettered by my suspicion about Molinism) and there was an interesting idea about Peter's appeal to Jesus, 'no, not You Lord' that caused me to ask myself 'what if an appeal to a brotherhood loyalty played a part in 1/3 of the angels following Satan?' I think the Tower of Bable was an appeal to a brotherhood loyalty. It is very powerful, and has led many astray.

Our bible study group at church discussed Babel the other morning... On the way home I introduced the idea to my wife that the city and tower of Babel could have very well been a fortress. A fortress to protect the people against any intervening on God's behalf into human history. Think about it... God had just flooded the earth.

She wondered why I didn't mention it in class. (hahaha!) Because it would have turned their 1/2 long discussion into a much longer one. (we're new to that class...)

I don't have much time to think or post this morning... I hope I've added to the intrigue though.

God bless your studies ma'am,
Dave
 
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Jan51

Well-Known Member
Good morning,

You're not alone, I think the majority of people may side with you.

There's a lot of evidence I believe to the contrary. One point of evidence is "never not you". Another point of evidence is that Jesus plainly taught that He would go to the cross, and that He would raise Himself on the third day. How could Satan not expect it when Jesus taught it? Did Jesus say it during Satan's coffee break? (I'm just picking... :) ) What begs the question... is why did Satan indwell Judas and hand God over to the authorities? This I assume is the strongest evidence that Satan did want the Messiah to go to the cross. Even though it wouldn't make sense for him (Satan) to want something that God had decreed would happen.

Think about this... If Jesus said that He must be delivered, crucified, and raised on the third day. Was it hopeful? Was it said by Him (perish the thought) in a squeamish manner (hoping He could avoid it)? Was it prophetic? Was He resolute? Can Jesus lie? Would it be a lie for God to say something prophetically and for it not to be absolutely true?

Did Satan know these questions? Did he know the answers?

My answer (Satan didn't want Jesus to go to the cross) is actually incomplete (sorry...). I don't think he wanted Jesus to go to the cross, but I don't think he thought he could stop Him from going to the cross. If you're Satan, and Omnipotent God is marching towards the cross (emphasis on Omnipotent), how do you stop Him? Do you put up road flares? Maybe stand in front of Him?

In a previous post, I mentioned something that I think is important to consider. Nobody interacted with it.

What exactly was Satan's motive? (Link)

I'm wondering if you may have seen it? If not... What do you think of this information?

Thanks for the reply,
Dave
I think Satan did want Jesus to go to the cross to die, because he had already tried to either prevent him from growing up (Herod killing all the baby boys) or have him killed (by the Pharisees). I see no evidence that he understood why Jesus had to die on the cross and what would result. We see that Satan knew what was written in Scripture, but he did not understand it or believe it would happen as God said. Even the disciples heard Jesus speak of these things but didn't understand or believe. I think he thought he was about to win at the cross.

This is what I see in Scripture. I feel like you keep "hinting" at some other interpretation but dancing all around it. I would like to see you plainly state your view with supporting Scripture.
 

Hol

Worships Him
Good Evening Dave,

I pulled your response to Pixel's response that Satan did want Jesus crucified:
You're not alone, I think the majority of people may side with you.

There's a lot of evidence I believe to the contrary. One point of evidence is "never not you". Another point of evidence is that Jesus plainly taught that He would go to the cross, and that He would raise Himself on the third day. How could Satan not expect it when Jesus taught it? Did Jesus say it during Satan's coffee break? (I'm just picking... :) ) What begs the question... is why did Satan indwell Judas and hand God over to the authorities? This I assume is the strongest evidence that Satan did want the Messiah to go to the cross. Even though it wouldn't make sense for him (Satan) to want something that God had decreed would happen.

Think about this... If Jesus said that He must be delivered, crucified, and raised on the third day. Was it hopeful? Was it said by Him (perish the thought) in a squeamish manner (hoping He could avoid it)? Was it prophetic? Was He resolute? Can Jesus lie? Would it be a lie for God to say something prophetically and for it not to be absolutely true?

Did Satan know these questions? Did he know the answers?

My answer (Satan didn't want Jesus to go to the cross) is actually incomplete (sorry...). I don't think he wanted Jesus to go to the cross, but I don't think he thought he could stop Him from going to the cross. If you're Satan, and Omnipotent God is marching towards the cross (emphasis on Omnipotent), how do you stop Him? Do you put up road flares? Maybe stand in front of Him?

In a previous post, I mentioned something that I think is important to consider. Nobody interacted with it.

What exactly was Satan's motive? (Link)

It would be within the Son of Man's humanity to both lovingly want to obey our Father, and dread going to the cross. His confidant and leader among The Twelve, Peter, was full of genuine concern inspired by Satan I imagine. It would be natural to sense that God in His humanity would want an alternative to the agony of accepting penalty for all mankind's sin & physical torture. (Sidenote: I think Satan has had great success in diverting many away from their mission to seek God's will through an appeal from an emotional 'brotherly sympathy.')

Christ plainly chooses to trust our Heavenly Father, but in much greater awareness than when Abraham offered Issac. What a troubled time for Him, He had none to encourage him to remain faithful.

Back to your question in the OP, it seems that Satan would have preferred that Jesus focus on the physically close and loving friends, build His kingdom on that loyalty.

But, Jesus only wanted His Father's will above any other desire or opportunity. Therefore, perhaps Satan's motive in filling Judas Ischariot to betray the Christ was to destroy the nation of Israel?? Maybe Satan saw the battle to condemn mankind to the Lake of Fire was lost in Jesus laying His life down only to be resurrected; yet Israel is the key to the reign of the Seed of David ruling earth for 1,000 years, and so expected God to utterly reject the first century Israel who rejected their Messiah.

:noidea2

I'm with Jan51, waiting for you to tell us your thoughts with Scripture. I would love to understand the higher view of God that you hold. BTW, I've thought the Tower of Babel may have been a misguided protection against floods too, though it was an act of rebellion.
 

DaveS

Well-Known Member
I think Satan did want Jesus to go to the cross to die, because he had already tried to either prevent him from growing up (Herod killing all the baby boys) or have him killed (by the Pharisees). I see no evidence that he understood why Jesus had to die on the cross and what would result.

Good morning Jan51,

Welcome to the majority. However, whether or not Satan understood why Jesus had to die on the cross is not the topic of the OP. I don't have time to go back and look, but it seems this has already come up, and it seems I've already admitted that Satan couldn't have known why Jesus had to die on the cross because some of the results of His death had not been revealed.

We see that Satan knew what was written in Scripture, but he did not understand it or believe it would happen as God said. Even the disciples heard Jesus speak of these things but didn't understand or believe. I think he thought he was about to win at the cross.

Win what? What did he think was going to happen? You're asking me to tell you my thoughts with scripture, but you're saying Satan didn't believe "it" would happen as God said. What is "it"? Back up this view with scripture, because that would actually be addressing the topic of the opening post. If you did this... you would have my full attention.

What would Satan have done next if he had won? And what was he doing with the information of the resurrection? Jesus said He was coming back to life after 3 days. Satan responded to the information of Jesus saying He would be killed and raised on the third day with, "Never, not you". This, I have plainly supported with scripture. More than once in the thread... This is what I'm interested in hearing people's (your) thoughts on.

This is what I see in Scripture. I feel like you keep "hinting" at some other interpretation but dancing all around it. I would like to see you plainly state your view with supporting Scripture.

Well respectfully... I believe that everyone has danced around the topic of the OP. So if I'm dancing... I'm dancing with everyone else. I happen to appreciate the dancing... I like to dance.

Kind regards,
Dave
 

DaveS

Well-Known Member
It would be within the Son of Man's humanity to both lovingly want to obey our Father, and dread going to the cross. His confidant and leader among The Twelve, Peter, was full of genuine concern inspired by Satan I imagine. It would be natural to sense that God in His humanity would want an alternative to the agony of accepting penalty for all mankind's sin & physical torture. (Sidenote: I think Satan has had great success in diverting many away from their mission to seek God's will through an appeal from an emotional 'brotherly sympathy.')

Good morning Hol,

I've noticed that you have quoted Dr. Fruchtenbaum in this thread. I assume you respect him as much as I do, since it seems you may own or have read his commentary on Genesis (it's one of the few of his works I don't own). Did you know that Dr. F directly opposes your view-point that God in His humanity sought an alternative to the agony of accepting penalty for all mankind's sin & physical torture? It's true... Did you know that Dr. F also teaches that Satan was trying to keep Jesus from the cross?

Earlier in the thread I posted something about Gethsemane that I had written as a response to a guy over on the CARM website, where people aren't nearly as friendly as they are here... which is why I'm not easily offended; you guys are sugary sweet in comparison to how I'm treated there. What I posted was what I learned from Dr. F, and investigated, and is pretty much a major part of the inspiration of the thread. I know that you're the majority... because I've poked and prodded in a lot of places. But I think you're wrong. I think you're position is required to answer the questions of the OP.

Back to your question in the OP, it seems that Satan would have preferred that Jesus focus on the physically close and loving friends, build His kingdom on that loyalty.

Did it escape Satan's notice that the Messiah would rule with an iron rod (Psalm 2:7-9)? Because if you elaborated on this... you could perhaps make an interesting case. If you elaborated on this while giving credit to Satan for knowing the information written about the Kingdom, the Messiah, and the anti-christ in the OT, you may have empathy towards why I haven't just "plainly stated my view".

But, Jesus only wanted His Father's will above any other desire or opportunity. Therefore, perhaps Satan's motive in filling Judas Ischariot to betray the Christ was to destroy the nation of Israel??

That would make sense wouldn't it... You know that's part of my theory. If God plans to build His Kingdom (prophetically uttered) around Israel. Wouldn't it make sense for Satan to try to destroy the people of Israel?


Maybe Satan saw the battle to condemn mankind to the Lake of Fire was lost in Jesus laying His life down only to be resurrected;

Did he also know that the lake of fire was prepared for him and the angels he led into rebellion?

I'm with Jan51, waiting for you to tell us your thoughts with Scripture. I would love to understand the higher view of God that you hold.

Hahaha! My higher view of God.... I thought I came across with a lot more humility than that. You're not patronizing me are you? ;) (I'm kidding... I don't think you are, at least I don't think you would given the nature and kindness of your posts).

I'm not offering hidden information... my goal was plainly stated in the OP. I do however think that the two shepherds of (Ezekiel 11) had to have played a part in Satan's motivation. Especially towards Israel... That's part of my theory, part of my study I'm subjecting myself to. It's part of what I'm trying to figure out, and part of why I started the thread... because I want people like me to be as interested in it as I am. That's certainly not everything... there's more, but it's not like I can just detail everything, that's just not practical, I'm only a man. I don't know everything, haven't considered everything, have no higher view of God. I need others to help me see the things I'm missing... That's why I came.

Wanna help?

Kind regards,
Dave
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
Hi Dave,

I'm not approaching this from the scholarly depths you are, I don't think, just from my basic understanding.

When Peter tried to say Jesus shouldn't go to the Cross, this was filtered through his human understanding. Jesus rebuked him with "get behind me Satan" because Peter's stance at that point was against the Father's Will. I'm not sure the thought of Peter's was directly satanically inspired, or that he spoke as an automaton of Satan, therefore I'm not sure Satan was interested in "never not you" so much.

It does say Satan entered Judas, but didn't say that of Peter. We may infer that from Jesus' response, but is that accurate? Now maybe tho, maybe Satan did inspire it, and used that to further set Jesus' resolve.

But anyhow you slice it, I have to maintain from my Monday morning quarterback's seat, that if Satan had known (or better, believed) what would happen, he would not have driven Jesus to the Cross.

For that matter I'm not sure the disciples themselves really understood what was about to happen.

Yes, Jesus had said what would happen, that He must be buried and raised in three days, and there are prophecies, and Satan most likely does know the Scriptures, but there again, I don't think he *believes* it, or he believes he can still circumvent and somehow come out victorious over God. Or at least he did then. Later, he will know for sure his time is short.

I'm sorry if that is an un-interesting or shallow answer, but I am following this discussion with interest! : )
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
When Peter tried to say Jesus shouldn't go to the Cross, this was filtered through his human understanding. Jesus rebuked him with "get behind me Satan" because Peter's stance at that point was against the Father's Will. I'm not sure the thought of Peter's was directly satanically inspired, or that he spoke as an automaton of Satan, therefore I'm not sure Satan was interested in "never not you" so much.

It does say Satan entered Judas, but didn't say that of Peter. We may infer that from Jesus' response, but is that accurate?

I think this explains it perfectly. Many times the really simple answer is the best one. And this lines up best with the rest of the bible. It really seems the "get behind me, Satan" was just a really strong figure of speech to tell Peter in no uncertain terms that he was going against God's will.

I've heard it said there are only really two wills in the universe, God's and Satan's. If it is not God's will, it is automatically Satan's, since Satan's will is "God's will not be done" but unlike God, Satan is not omniscient. If Jesus never went to the cross, God's will would not have been done... but that does not mean Satan was actively seeking that particular outcome out. From everything I have read in the Bible, Satan really wanted Jesus to die. It really seems like he simply made a huge mistake and accidentally lead to God's will being done, kind of like falling into a trap in chess where you capture an opponent's queen but then are immediately put into checkmate on their turn

Edit: to continue with the metaphor of the chess game, person B wants to win the game. That is person B's ultimate will. For B to win and A to lose.

Person A's ultimate will is to win the game as well, so person A puts his queen in a compromised position on purpose, knowing it will lead to him winning on the next turn.

Person B sees that person A's queen is vulnerable. Person B's momentary will is to take Person A's queen, because he thinks that if Person A loses his queen, Person B will win for sure.

The momentary will of Person B is to capture the queen of person A, thinking it will lead to the ultimate will of winning the game. Person B follows his momentary will, and captures the queen. It is revealed Person A knew this outcome all along, and Person A promptly checkmates Person B.

Person B did not know that his ultimate will would have been met if he did not go with his momentary will. The outcome would have been better for Person B had he left the queen in play, so his momentary will prevented his ultimate will.

It seems Jesus was telling Peter that Peter was following Satan's ultimate will, that Satan would have "won the game" had Jesus not gone to the cross. But that does not mean that Satan actively sought out that Jesus would live; the thought never crossed Satan's mind. His momentary will was all he thought about

God has the advantage of being omniscient, so there is no difference between his momentary and ultimate will. It was really an "unfair game" :lol
 
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