What exactly was Satan's motive?

[DaveS]

Good morning,

First, let me say that my motive is to test certain theories that I hear or think of in a place where I know the people are closest to me in a biblical view-point. With that being said, I'm interested in what people here would have to say about this.

Was Satan more interested in "never, not you" (Matt. 16:22) or in handing the LordGodJesus over (Jn. 13:27)?

What did Satan expect would happen?

Many people are fond of saying that Satan knows scripture better than anyone... I would start with the assumption that no one needs to debate the fact that Satan is not stupid.

Why does this matter to me? Mostly because it will lead to certain conclusions about the characteristics of a Holy God, and His purposes to create.

God bless your studies,
Dave

 

[ehbowen]

I believe that events are not fundamentally linear, but that they "branch" in a way similar to that explored in the second Back to the Future movie. So I believe that Satan's plan...which ultimately failed...was to create a "branch" so horrifying that the Savior would decline to go down it, thus leaving a "hole" where he could hide and ultimately emerge from to seek vengeance. In John 13:27 and following you see him acting to make the history as we know it so intolerable that Jesus would refuse to endure it...and he came close, as we see from Jesus's genuine reaction in the Garden of Gethsemane.

But I believe that higher beings, which include Satan, do not perceive the time stream in the same linear way that we do. In the Matthew passage, which happened earlier in linear time, I believe that both sides had at least an "echo" of what would happen on the cross. There, Satan was urging Jesus to choose the easy way, the way to fame and power and popularity...which would leave Satan his "hole" in the sequence of events which we now now (and no hope for those of us trapped in it with him). Jesus, at that point, knew for certain that the only way forward was the cross and excoriated Satan's attempt to derail the train of events through the mouth of Peter.

 

[annieforjesus]

I've been thinking a lot about your question, it definitely is one of the most difficult questions I have ever pondered..And I don't have any idea of how it could be answered..over my lifetime there have been a few like this one.. When Ive had questions that I couldn't answer in the past, I think of what I heard an apologist say, it was, If a finite creation could ever understand an infinite creator, then the creator would not be infinite...that kind of satisfied me on some of the things...it will be interesting to see what people have to say about what you've asked..

 

[DaveS]

I believe that events are not fundamentally linear, but that they "branch" in a way similar to that explored in the second Back to the Future movie. So I believe that Satan's plan...which ultimately failed...was to create a "branch" so horrifying that the Savior would decline to go down it, thus leaving a "hole" where he could hide and ultimately emerge from to seek vengeance. In John 13:27 and following you see him acting to make the history as we know it so intolerable that Jesus would refuse to endure it...and he came close, as we see from Jesus's genuine reaction in the Garden of Gethsemane.

But I believe that higher beings, which include Satan, do not perceive the time stream in the same linear way that we do. In the Matthew passage, which happened earlier in linear time, I believe that both sides had at least an "echo" of what would happen on the cross. There, Satan was urging Jesus to choose the easy way, the way to fame and power and popularity...which would leave Satan his "hole" in the sequence of events which we now now (and no hope for those of us trapped in it with him). Jesus, at that point, knew for certain that the only way forward was the cross and excoriated Satan's attempt to derail the train of events through the mouth of Peter.

Are you saying that Judas betrayed Jesus in order to push the reality of the cross on Him in hopes that the horror of what He would have to endure would be enough to dissuade Him from doing so? And you believe that the agony of Jesus, and His prayer to the Father to remove the cup were prayers to avoid going to the cross?

 

[DaveS]

I've been thinking a lot about your question, it definitely is one of the most difficult questions I have ever pondered..And I don't have any idea of how it could be answered..over my lifetime there have been a few like this one.. When Ive had questions that I couldn't answer in the past, I think of what I heard an apologist say, it was, If a finite creation could ever understand an infinite creator, then the creator would not be infinite...that kind of satisfied me on some of the things...it will be interesting to see what people have to say about what you've asked..

I certainly see what the apologist is trying to say. We have to remember though, biblical revelation is God given... so although the apologist may be correct in stating that God's creatures can not know what it's "like" to be Omniscient, or Omnipotent, or Omnipresent, or Omnibenevolent, we were given the scriptures by God in order to understand them, and in turn, know our Creator.

I appreciate your response. It's certainly not right for us as finite creatures to claim to be without error in our thinking, but it's a disservice to our God to not seek Him with all we have (Matt. 22:37)

I'll be interested in the responses as well,
Kind regards,
Dave

 

[Micki]

When the angels rebelled they immediately lost their places in heaven. I think that Satan’s purpose was John 13:27. He knew Yeshua was going to be treated harshly, most likely because he knew his minions would be whispering in the people’s ears that they should torture Yeshua as much as possible. I think he hoped to provoke a response from The Savior that would cause Him to call down legions of angels to rescue Him and give up the cross and at the same time, give up on mankind. Instead of seeking vengeance and rescue Yeshua asked for The Father to forgive those causing Him harm, and went to the cross of m total obedience. Satan couldn’t change the direction Yeshua was heading no matter how hard he tried!

On another note, when Yeshua was in the Garden asking for the cup to pass from Him I think it was because He was bearing the weight of the world’s sins and if an angel had not come to strengthen Him, He would’ve died right there.

 

[annieforjesus]

Yes, Dave, I agree with you about Gods word being given to us to understand..I was just thinking of the times I wasn't able to understand...after many years, I finally came to an understanding of Hebrews 6...made me so happy..it was a process, but finally I have peace about it.

 

[Salluz]

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God 1 Corinthians 2:6-10

It seems to me that Satan didn't truly understand what would happen when Christ was crucified. Perhaps he was kept from understanding until after the fact that Jesus' death and resurrection would save us all. Maybe he just wanted to kill him thinking it would prevent him from instating his kingdom. It's easy to understand what all the prophecies meant and the things that jesus said this side of the cross with the help of the holy spirit, but even the disciples didn't realize he would be resurrected until after it happened

Just some input from someone who is far from a scholar

 

[ehbowen]

Are you saying that Judas betrayed Jesus in order to push the reality of the cross on Him in hopes that the horror of what He would have to endure would be enough to dissuade Him from doing so? And you believe that the agony of Jesus, and His prayer to the Father to remove the cup were prayers to avoid going to the cross?

Are you saying that Judas betrayed Jesus in order to push the reality of the cross on Him in hopes that the horror of what He would have to endure would be enough to dissuade Him from doing so? And you believe that the agony of Jesus, and His prayer to the Father to remove the cup were prayers to avoid going to the cross?

Well, you have to distinguish between the choice and the plan of a God who is eternal and outside of time and the choice made inside of time. "Distinguish" may be a poor word because they are the same choice, but what I mean is that at some point in the time stream which we know the eternal choice made before the foundation of the world touches a moment which we know as "Now" and becomes forever irrevocable...and I believe that happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.

I take Jesus's words there at their face value. If it were possible for the cup (of the cross) to pass from him in a manner which was still within the Father's will, he wanted that. It's not that he wasn't willing to go through with it, but if there was some other way to accomplish the objective at hand without it, he would choose that. It appears that at that juncture God sent an angel to him to strengthen him, and it wouldn't surprise me if that angel carried a message which said, "Take courage, Son. You can do this!"

From that point in time, Jesus was committed to carry out the Father's will by going to the cross. Now, what I'm also saying is that because Jesus is also eternal God, the "ripples" from that point of decision spread out to the past and to the future. So Jesus talking to Peter already knew that this was going to happen and that he had to do it, and he would not take the easy way out which Satan was tempting him with (through the person of Peter). It can get a little tough to try to think outside the box of linear time which we all live in...but I believe it's worth the effort.

 

[greg64]

I think the enemy's objective has always been at least two-fold -- find or create any loophole or argument to avoid his own impending fate and, failing that, cause as much damage and hurt to God as he can. Humans are just his pawns in both.

In terms of Jesus' prayer in the garden, I don't disagree with the above, but I think it's also an example to us and very possibly recorded for that reason as well as to show the great personal cost God in all three persons paid for our redemption.

 

[DaveS]

Yes, Dave, I agree with you about Gods word being given to us to understand..I was just thinking of the times I wasn't able to understand...after many years, I finally came to an understanding of Hebrews 6...made me so happy..it was a process, but finally I have peace about it.

Good morning Jeri,

I understand. I wasn't so much as trying to "impart wisdom" or "correct" as much as I was trying to encourage. I love those processes you're talking about... I love seeing people in God's church actually moving through those processes rather than accepting that they'll never understand something.

I'm sure that I don't fully understand the question I asked either... but mediums such as this forum allow me to collect data and opinions, and move forward to better understand the question and the possible answers.

God bless you and your studies abundantly, and beyond your expectations,
Dave

 

[DaveS]

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God 1 Corinthians 2:6-10

It seems to me that Satan didn't truly understand what would happen when Christ was crucified. Perhaps he was kept from understanding until after the fact that Jesus' death and resurrection would save us all. Maybe he just wanted to kill him thinking it would prevent him from instating his kingdom. It's easy to understand what all the prophecies meant and the things that jesus said this side of the cross with the help of the holy spirit, but even the disciples didn't realize he would be resurrected until after it happened

Just some input from someone who is far from a scholar

Good morning Salluz,

This is good detective work... However, it should be noted that the rulers of this age in the context of Paul's letter here could very well be referring to human governing authorities, such as the Sanhedrin and the Romans.

Just something to think about before you make up your mind decisively. I appreciate your contribution and I hope you stick around and add more...

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[RonJohnSilver]

Satan's goal, I think, was to thwart the plan of redemption (which he didn't fully understand) by having Jesus crucified. He'd been trying to do so ever since Cain. The nephilim infestation was part of that, the mass slayings in Exodus and later under Herod, the attempt to end Jesus's legal line with Haman in Esther and with the evil queen mother Athaliah and throughout the Old Testament. With the crucifixion, he thought he'd won. Three days later, he learned otherwise. Post-resurrection, Jesus went and preached (proclaimed) to the spirits in prison (demons) that their plans had been totally and forever overturned.

Further, Satan is still concerned about his own personal fate and that shows in Hosea 5:15 where it says that until they (Jews) call on my name (Jesus), he will stay in his place (Heaven), a reference to the time at the end of the tribulation when the Jews are on the brink of destruction and they finally call on the Lord to save them (Zechariah). The Hosea passage also explains the ongoing hatred of the Jews. If the Jews do not call on the name of Jesus (or if there are no existing Jews to do so), then Jesus never returns, by His own words, there is no second coming, Satan is not cast into the lake of fire and he remains in charge of the Earth forever. There's more written by me and others on this subject on this site, under Satan's last chance, if I recall the title correctly. Some don't see this in Hosea but it's an interesting topic. To me it shows why the world hates Jews even after the cross. For Satan to avoid his announced fate, every single Jew has to die, which is what many in the world seek.

 

[DaveS]

It's not that he wasn't willing to go through with it, but if there was some other way to accomplish the objective at hand without it, he would choose that.

Good morning,

I'm able to reasonably follow your logic here, although I think that this defense you're giving veers from the topic, I can see how it's relevant.

I wonder though, about your theory... as what your advocating at the moment brings about the conclusion that JesusGod, was seeking to choose another way other than the one He clearly knew was the exact path in which He needed to take (Jn. 3:14, 6:51; Matt. 16:21). There is an alternate theory about Jesus in Gethsemane that I would share with you if you're interested.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[ehbowen]

Good morning,
I wonder though, about your theory... as what your advocating at the moment brings about the conclusion that JesusGod, was seeking to choose another way other than the one He clearly knew was the exact path in which He needed to take (Jn. 3:14, 6:51; Matt. 16:21). There is an alternate theory about Jesus in Gethsemane that I would share with you if you're interested.

Nothing wrong with that at all. If you take Scripture at face value and don't try to overthink it with "political correctness," there's quite a number of times when God was willing to change his mind and/or his plans. Genesis 18. Numbers 14. Matthew 23. And this is another.

And, yes, I know the politically correct thing to do is to say that God is always perfect and never changes a decision and he was just testing folks here and yada yada yada. I agree that the outside of the pearl is perfect. But inside there are some nasty twists and turns and more than a few close calls. Over the past few years I've gotten to the point where I'm not afraid to look inside the pearl and call 'em as I sees 'em.

However, I would be willing to look at your alternate theory about Gethsemane. It never hurts to look at the facts from a new perspective.

 

[DaveS]

Satan's goal, I think, was to thwart the plan of redemption (which he didn't fully understand) by having Jesus crucified.

Good morning RonJohnSilver,

Thanks for your post. But, as you'll notice from the OP, Satan influenced Peter to keep Jesus from the cross which provoked the strong rebuke from JesusGod. It's not as if Satan couldn't hear all the times that the Messiah laid bare the plans He had towards the cross.

I'm not saying that you can't make a stronger case towards your conclusion, but I think before you do you have to address this particular issue.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[DaveS]

Nothing wrong with that at all. If you take Scripture at face value and don't try to overthink it with "political correctness," there's quite a number of times when God was willing to change his mind and/or his plans. Genesis 18. Numbers 14. Matthew 23. And this is another.

And, yes, I know the politically correct thing to do is to say that God is always perfect and never changes a decision and he was just testing folks here and yada yada yada. I agree that the outside of the pearl is perfect. But inside there are some nasty twists and turns and more than a few close calls. Over the past few years I've gotten to the point where I'm not afraid to look inside the pearl and call 'em as I sees 'em.

However, I would be willing to look at your alternate theory about Gethsemane. It never hurts to look at the facts from a new perspective.

It's not really "politically correct" to say that God is perfect. But I'll leave that alone ~grin~ at least for now.

I remember you from another thread, judging by what I read, we probably have some very fundamental differences and presuppositions that will always keep us from agreement. That's okay though... I still like reading what you have to say.

Below is something I wrote on another discussion board that will give you the gist of what my alternate view-point is. I'm pressed for time, so I decided to offer this instead of getting detailed, but if you'd like to challenge it, or if you want more detail I'll certainly oblige (when I get more time).

Thanks for being here,
Dave

Here's what I wrote concerning Gethsemane.

So obviously Jesus prayed three times for the cup to be taken from Him (for time reasons I won't cite verses). He obviously understands that He must drink from the cup. I've read many different explanations as to why He says this, many explanations as to whether or not He is conceding to the Father's will and whether His request is out of sync with the Father. What I favor, is that Jesus asked something very specific three times, something very specific and was told "no". Since the Son is eternal as is the Father and the Spirit, the Son had eternally enjoyed unbroken fellowship with them. I think it's pretty reasonable to deduce that Jesus prayed that He would not have to endure broken fellowship with the Father by going to the cross. This is the only reason I can think of that addresses His cry at the cross (why have you forsaken me), His agony in the garden, and His petition through prayer being denied. The prayer to not have to endure broken fellowship would be a perfect prayer, a perfect prayer given in faith, and a prayer in which in this instance would depend totally on the Divine Righteousness of God the Father to grant.

Jesus was totally in control of His death, but He conceded to the Father's not to avoid pain or suffering, but to not to have to endure any period of time in which they were not in complete fellowship. I'm sure if there was any other way.... But the Son had to endure the wrath of God in order to make our atonement.

 

[ehbowen]

Dave, I'm constrained in my ability to reply by board rules. I don't hesitate to rush in where angels fear to tread...quite literally. Your perspective is defensible for the middle of the pearl...but at the center of the pearl, I believe, there was no divine foreknowledge. Just Jesus coming to Earth in order to rescue Israel by taking its reins as their rightful King...and finding everything collapsing around him. His cry from the cross was genuine, IMO...not over "broken fellowship" or any such, but for a moment he honestly believed that his own Father had abandoned him. And, at that time...at the center of the pearl...neither Father nor Son knew for sure that the enemy was going to be defeated and that he would emerge triumphant over death.

I understand this is radical to most of you. Heretical, even. Trouble is, I'm convinced that it's true. And if the Father were to appear before me right now I believe that he'd be more likely to fix me up with his own daughter than to upbraid me for disrespect.

 

[Jan51]

Dave, I'm constrained in my ability to reply by board rules. I don't hesitate to rush in where angels fear to tread...quite literally. Your perspective is defensible for the middle of the pearl...but at the center of the pearl, I believe, there was no divine foreknowledge. Just Jesus coming to Earth in order to rescue Israel by taking its reins as their rightful King...and finding everything collapsing around him. His cry from the cross was genuine, IMO...not over "broken fellowship" or any such, but for a moment he honestly believed that his own Father had abandoned him. And, at that time...at the center of the pearl...neither Father nor Son knew for sure that the enemy was going to be defeated and that he would emerge triumphant over death.

I understand this is radical to most of you. Heretical, even. Trouble is, I'm convinced that it's true. And if the Father were to appear before me right now I believe that he'd be more likely to fix me up with his own daughter than to upbraid me for disrespect.

This is false doctrine. This is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[greg64]

Interesting discussion. A few random thoughts:

Imo, calvary was clearly rehearsed in advance via the skins God provided Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 as well as (and more clearly by) Abraham and Isaac on Mt. Moriah. Then the scapegoat and so much other typology that all points to Christ -- I can't wrap my head around God not knowing His plan and how it would play out. He leaves no reasonable room for doubt.

Did Jesus put the offer of the kingdom now on the table for the Jews? Possibly, but if so I think it was withdrawn well before the cross. Andy Woods explores this in light of Matthew 12:24 in his Coming Kingdom series, installment 11. I'm not going to post the link as it contains video, but the transcript is readily available at slbc.org.

The other thing that comes to mind is Daniel's 70 weeks. With Palm Sunday being the last day of the 69th week and the 70th week still future, the timetable was fully set long before Christ's incarnation, known to Gabriel, and communicated to men (even if they didn't understand the full meaning).