We are not appointed to wrath

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
Salluz, you have cleared it up for me.Thank you. I felt that it was almost a contradiction when Jesus says that believers are saved from wrath but so many saints will die in the tribulation. John 20:29 really helps me to understand. :)
Also, as a side note, when I read that line my whole body started tingling and a whoosh electricity flowed through me. I get that when I have to pay close attention to something. It's a wake up call!

I'm glad I could be of use! Some other things to note might be that God knows how preserve the righteous during judgments (think of Noah, Lot, Passover, Rahab, etc.). I agree with Abraham in Genesis 18:25

Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?

I think it's good to note what happened to the tribulation saints in Rev. 6 and what they ask God for:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

They end up martyred because of the evilness of people and because they turned to God in faith after the rapture. While that time is characterized by God's wrath on the world, it seems like the tribulation saints that are dying are dying because people are evil and kill them. Evil people kill Christians even now, and we aren't under God's wrath. It just happens much less often compared to what will happen when the Holy Spirit is no longer restraining evil
 

katt

Well-Known Member
I've really never understood this verse, The Body Of Christ has been persecuted ever since it's conception when it was called The Way..we have always been the victims of wrath, Jesus told us not to be surprised when not if but when it happens..because they hated him, so they hate his followers..I believe this verse only means, we will not go through The Tribulation, nothing more, nothing less.
 

JustLikeHeaven

Well-Known Member
When the church age ends and the tribulation time begins, God's attention fully shifts to Israel. As such, salvation is much the same as it was during the O.T. times. In the O.T., salvation was by believing in the messiah, although that person (Jesus) had yet to appear. So, it was their faith in the coming messiah. They showed that faith by the ceremonies, festivals and sacrifices that were commanded by God to Moses. So, their faith was shown or proven by their works. Their works did not save them but were only evidence of that faith.

Now, in the tribulation age, it will be similar to the O.T. in that people will still have to believe in and put their faith in the messiah, now known as Jesus, and their works will give evidence of that faith. In that time, though, their works will be shown by how they treat the Jews. That's why, in Matthew 25, Jesus talks of when "...when you visited me in prison, etc." And he concludes with "...by doing so to the least of these (Jews), you did it unto me." So, the tribulation 'saints' still have to put their faith in the Savior (Jesus) and prove it by their works, just as the O.T. saints did.

The church age saints (us), because we have not seen either Jesus or his miracles, but believe simply and totally on faith, are exempted from the proving aspect. Our 'proof' is the indwelling of the H.S. We don't have to prove anything. The proof is within us. And only us. At the heart of anyone's salvation though, is faith in Jesus. Always and for everyone.
BEAUTIFUL! This is how I understand it too. Grace vs. Works.
 

Hiftobaf

Well-Known Member
I think it's good to note what happened to the tribulation saints in Rev. 6 and what they ask God for:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

This is a bit of an aside, but I find these verses to be odd. Shouldn't it be obvious that Jesus is judging the earth at this point because He is opening the seals?
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
This is a bit of an aside, but I find these verses to be odd. Shouldn't it be obvious that Jesus is judging the earth at this point because He is opening the seals?
Even though the seals will be opened and judgment will be poured out like never before, they will probably look for any and all answers that they can to explain it away, like those today who sit around in our time and do the same when it comes to God. :doh

Those left behind will be the wicked, the last thing they want to do is to admit their worst nightmare just became real, that the righteous and just God they always denied is now executing His judgment.

But at some point, they will have to get over the denial and have to face reality. As the Word says, "...then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." :sad
 

Hiftobaf

Well-Known Member
Even though the seals will be opened and judgment will be poured out like never before, they will probably look for any and all answers that they can to explain it away, like those today who sit around in our time and do the same when it comes to God. :doh

Those left behind will be the wicked, the last thing they want to do is to admit their worst nightmare just became real, that the righteous and just God they always denied is now executing His judgment.

But at some point, they will have to get over the denial and have to face reality. As the Word says, "...then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." :sad

But in verse 9 above it's clear that the people asking this question are already dead, not the survivors on earth trying to figure out what is going on.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
But in verse 9 above it's clear that the people asking this question are already dead, not the survivors on earth trying to figure out what is going on.
I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about those who were hiding under the rocks and asking if the Day of the Lord has commenced.

Maybe they can't see what is going on the Earth? :idunno But then again, they have been martyred so they know what is going on the Earth. :thinking

The verse in question is about Seal 5, the survivors on Earth cry out in Seal 6.

Maybe if they see those on Earth still carrying out their deeds, then they ask the questions about avenging their deaths, etc. I don't know. We all want swift justice when wrong is done to us, but God has a plan in the Tribulation. He has a specific number of judgments and stuff that will accomplish the judgment of unrepentant sinners. They will have to wait for God's program to be completed. The evildoers will not escape judgment. JMHO.
 

Glorydaz

Member
In the OT their was only a small glimpse of the suffering Messiah that had to come first. Those who were really watching and really waiting were the ones that saw Jesus as the true Messiah. This is also an illustration of how we watch and wait for Jesus today in faith!

Yes, good point, as the Jews were selfishly looking for the Conquering King. He will appear as such, and every knee shall bow. Certainly our Blessed Hope.
 

Glorydaz

Member
I've really never understood this verse, The Body Of Christ has been persecuted ever since it's conception when it was called The Way..we have always been the victims of wrath, Jesus told us not to be surprised when not if but when it happens..because they hated him, so they hate his followers..I believe this verse only means, we will not go through The Tribulation, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't think believers have ever been under God's wrath. Tribulations, yes, but wrath never.
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
I've really never understood this verse, The Body Of Christ has been persecuted ever since it's conception when it was called The Way..we have always been the victims of wrath, Jesus told us not to be surprised when not if but when it happens..because they hated him, so they hate his followers..I believe this verse only means, we will not go through The Tribulation, nothing more, nothing less.
Not the wrath of God. Few have seen the wrath of God. It will be something so terrible that the book of Revelation says, when the 5th seal is broken, men will wish to die but death will not come for them.

6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. [Revelation 9:6 NKJV]

You are speaking of tribulation and persecution which happen because the devil, the world (culture of the flesh), and the flesh (personal), all work together against us. Jesus speaks about it in John 16.

33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." [John 16:33 NKJV]

Yes, The Tribulation and tribulation are different things. The Tribulation is a definite article, meaning it is a specified and prophesied time of God's wrath. Regular tribulation is just the trials of life (by the unholy 3 mentioned above) that refine and sanctify us to make us more life Christ.

Lastly, God corrects us but he never pours out His wrath on us. When He sees us He sees Jesus Christ in us. Christ took God's wrath in our place and stated it is finished - meaning the Church never receives any of God's wrath because Jesus took it all upon Himself - praise Him!

30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. [John 19:30 NKJV]

Hope this helps clarify. Blessings.
 

loveJesus

Member
It will be very hard to be saved after the rapture because the Holy Spirit will be in Heaven. Right now the Holy Spirit is holding back the pure evil of the enemy. During the tribulation the newly saved will starve, be hunted, and killed. If you don’t get the mark of the beast you are basically toast…but those that read the forums and rapture ready will know what to do. Let’s pray there eyes are opened before we are called home.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
It will be very hard to be saved after the rapture because the Holy Spirit will be in Heaven. Right now the Holy Spirit is holding back the pure evil of the enemy. During the tribulation the newly saved will starve, be hunted, and killed. If you don’t get the mark of the beast you are basically toast…but those that read the forums and rapture ready will know what to do. Let’s pray there eyes are opened before we are called home.

The Holy spirit will still be on the earth after the rapture as he's Omnipresent, it's just that he will not have the same role that he had during the church age
 
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