UMBRA

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
aaaand what's fun, is that we're rapidly heading for that "time" when again, time ceases and there will only be that same, wonderful, fabulous, awesome, single soruce of light

It could just be an issue of wording, but I see our eternal state as that of one with time without limit. To me, that's pretty different from there being no time at all.

It seems self-evident to me that every created being will always be bound by time because we all had a point where we did not exist and then a point where we did (a beginning). Only God is outside of time. I see God as being the plane (or outside of it in total?), and time for created beings a ray. We had a start point but will continue on forever, whereas God always IS (like Jesus saying "before Abraham was, I AM").

Because we will have physical bodies, time must exist for us to DO anything with them. To move takes time, to think takes time, to speak takes time, to sing takes time, etc. We can't divorce that aspect of ourselves without somehow erasing our status as created beings.

Even angels have always been subject to time.

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

Satan was created perfect and then changed to be wicked, something that requires time.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia

The angel sent to talk to Daniel was delayed by a fallen angel for a concrete amount of time (three weeks) and could not deliver his message.

Rev. 8:1 confirms there is also time in Heaven, When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.


I'm extremely perplexed about how spirit "works" for lack of a better term. Angels are spiritual beings but can take human shape (and apparently have children with human women if you don't try to explain away Genesis 6).

The New Jerusalem, which is physical as far as I can tell, comes down out of Heaven to orbit around Earth. We will also be in Heaven after the rapture for seven years give or take some time. Our resurrection body is described as a spiritual body, but Jesus showed after his resurrection he was not a ghost and could eat with His disciples. Then we have to consider whether His appearing and disappearing at will were an ability common to all resurrected human bodies or whether that was because "He is God; He can do whatever He wants" (lol).

But seriously, what is "spirit," exactly, to function the way it does? And what's time for that matter to both bind spirits and to be affected by gravity? What's gravity? Do the things in Heaven have gravity? Mass? It seems like people walk around the throne, and it takes an angels wings for them to fly. Does an angel not in human form weigh anything?

And where exactly is Heaven? Like there is a left and right, forward and backward, up and down (x y z), maybe heavenward and earthward is w. If that's the case, what if you keep going earthward past Earth or heavenward past Heaven?

How many heads will this make spin? I've started with my own :lol
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Light, like time had a single source and origin. It's interesting to consider that there was a "time" when there was no time and there was only a single source of light and then there were more, pale, limited images/copies/reflections of that light...aaaand what's fun, is that we're rapidly heading for that "time" when again, time ceases and there will only be that same, wonderful, fabulous, awesome, single soruce of light.
I agree with what you have posted except for the part where you say that time will cease. I don't think it will cease for us. While God exists outside of time, it seems as though it will always be a part of our existence. It won't have the attached sorrow that it now has for us (because of our present mortality), however. I believe that God created time for we humans. In the Eternal state, it mentions a new crop of fruit on the Tree of Life every MONTH--which is a unit of time. (Rev. 22:2) Also, consider: "Then God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years'..." (Genesis 1:14)
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
It could just be an issue of wording, but I see our eternal state as that of one with time without limit. To me, that's pretty different from there being no time at all.

It seems self-evident to me that every created being will always be bound by time because we all had a point where we did not exist and then a point where we did (a beginning). Only God is outside of time. I see God as being the plane (or outside of it in total?), and time for created beings a ray. We had a start point but will continue on forever, whereas God always IS (like Jesus saying "before Abraham was, I AM").

Because we will have physical bodies, time must exist for us to DO anything with them. To move takes time, to think takes time, to speak takes time, to sing takes time, etc. We can't divorce that aspect of ourselves without somehow erasing our status as created beings.

Even angels have always been subject to time.

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

Satan was created perfect and then changed to be wicked, something that requires time.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia

The angel sent to talk to Daniel was delayed by a fallen angel for a concrete amount of time (three weeks) and could not deliver his message.

Rev. 8:1 confirms there is also time in Heaven, When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.


I'm extremely perplexed about how spirit "works" for lack of a better term. Angels are spiritual beings but can take human shape (and apparently have children with human women if you don't try to explain away Genesis 6).

The New Jerusalem, which is physical as far as I can tell, comes down out of Heaven to orbit around Earth. We will also be in Heaven after the rapture for seven years give or take some time. Our resurrection body is described as a spiritual body, but Jesus showed after his resurrection he was not a ghost and could eat with His disciples. Then we have to consider whether His appearing and disappearing at will were an ability common to all resurrected human bodies or whether that was because "He is God; He can do whatever He wants" (lol).

But seriously, what is "spirit," exactly, to function the way it does? And what's time for that matter to both bind spirits and to be affected by gravity? What's gravity? Do the things in Heaven have gravity? Mass? It seems like people walk around the throne, and it takes an angels wings for them to fly. Does an angel not in human form weigh anything?

And where exactly is Heaven? Like there is a left and right, forward and backward, up and down (x y z), maybe heavenward and earthward is w. If that's the case, what if you keep going earthward past Earth or heavenward past Heaven?

How many heads will this make spin? I've started with my own :lol
I didn't see your post till I posted mine--but I agree with you!
 

RobinMc

Well-Known Member
Some Christians believe that demons ("unclean spirits") are a different order of being, than are fallen angels.
In a Bible study a few years ago, the pastor taught that the fallen angels were in chains, but that when the Nephilim were killed, like in Noah's flood, the human part of them died, but the angelic part became an spirit and is loose in the world and under satans control, even still today. That did sort of make sense to me, but I don't know if that is what actually happened. I can't think of anything in the bible that says what happened to them at death.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
It could just be an issue of wording, but I see our eternal state as that of one with time without limit. To me, that's pretty different from there being no time at all.

It seems self-evident to me that every created being will always be bound by time because we all had a point where we did not exist and then a point where we did (a beginning). Only God is outside of time. I see God as being the plane (or outside of it in total?), and time for created beings a ray. We had a start point but will continue on forever, whereas God always IS (like Jesus saying "before Abraham was, I AM").

Because we will have physical bodies, time must exist for us to DO anything with them. To move takes time, to think takes time, to speak takes time, to sing takes time, etc. We can't divorce that aspect of ourselves without somehow erasing our status as created beings.

Even angels have always been subject to time.

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.

Satan was created perfect and then changed to be wicked, something that requires time.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia

The angel sent to talk to Daniel was delayed by a fallen angel for a concrete amount of time (three weeks) and could not deliver his message.

Rev. 8:1 confirms there is also time in Heaven, When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.


I'm extremely perplexed about how spirit "works" for lack of a better term. Angels are spiritual beings but can take human shape (and apparently have children with human women if you don't try to explain away Genesis 6).

The New Jerusalem, which is physical as far as I can tell, comes down out of Heaven to orbit around Earth. We will also be in Heaven after the rapture for seven years give or take some time. Our resurrection body is described as a spiritual body, but Jesus showed after his resurrection he was not a ghost and could eat with His disciples. Then we have to consider whether His appearing and disappearing at will were an ability common to all resurrected human bodies or whether that was because "He is God; He can do whatever He wants" (lol).

But seriously, what is "spirit," exactly, to function the way it does? And what's time for that matter to both bind spirits and to be affected by gravity? What's gravity? Do the things in Heaven have gravity? Mass? It seems like people walk around the throne, and it takes an angels wings for them to fly. Does an angel not in human form weigh anything?

And where exactly is Heaven? Like there is a left and right, forward and backward, up and down (x y z), maybe heavenward and earthward is w. If that's the case, what if you keep going earthward past Earth or heavenward past Heaven?

How many heads will this make spin? I've started with my own :lol
The elders “fall down” in worship. They sit on thrones. That indicates some sort of gravity at work.

The cherubim have six wings each—four to cover head and feet, and two to fly. Does that mean they there is air on heaven, to provide wind resistance for the wings to work?
 

Flyfisher

Well-Known Member
Funny thing about light. It exist in two states until it is observed. God fill the universe with light but it did not take form (he way we see it) till we observed it.
I think time is another interesting topic as well. In my opinion time is merely a construct of humans to help us organize sequences of events hence why time travel is not possible except by God. Well he doesn’t exactly time travel he just exist everywhere and always because of his omnipotence which allows him to know past and future regardless of where our current (and the angels) perception resides. Once a sequence of events happens, it cannot be undone except by God but since he already knew what all outcomes are and these outcomes will follow His divine plan so no need to redo it. I would think if time travel was possible then satan would surely have use it to keep trying to change his future outcome but even he is running out of “time”. I know they have done some experiments showing time dilation but this just shows that two independent things can come back out of sink but they cannot change the series of events. Once those events happen they cannot be undone. They just prove that the perception can be different between things.
 

Flyfisher

Well-Known Member
The elders “fall down” in worship. They sit on thrones. That indicates some sort of gravity at work.

The cherubim have six wings each—four to cover head and feet, and two to fly. Does that mean they there is air on heaven, to provide wind resistance for the wings to work?
Possibly but we also know they can defy gravity. In this world we are bound by the laws (gravity etc) God put in place, I think once we have been redeemed in our new bodies we will have the ability to bend those laws at will which I think angels are able to do.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
It could just be an issue of wording, but I see our eternal state as that of one with time without limit. To me, that's pretty different from there being no time at all.
I agree with what you have posted except for the part where you say that time will cease.
Okay. I have no issues with what you've posted. Let me restate with, Time as we know it, will cease. The analogue by which we measure will no longer exist. It won't be time with relativity and it won't have a "second one" any longer.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
Funny thing about light. It exist in two states until it is observed. God fill the universe with light but it did not take form (he way we see it) till we observed it.
I think time is another interesting topic as well. In my opinion time is merely a construct of humans to help us organize sequences of events hence why time travel is not possible except by God. Well he doesn’t exactly time travel he just exist everywhere and always because of his omnipotence which allows him to know past and future regardless of where our current (and the angels) perception resides. Once a sequence of events happens, it cannot be undone except by God but since he already knew what all outcomes are and these outcomes will follow His divine plan so no need to redo it. I would think if time travel was possible then satan would surely have use it to keep trying to change his future outcome but even he is running out of “time”. I know they have done some experiments showing time dilation but this just shows that two independent things can come back out of sink but they cannot change the series of events. Once those events happen they cannot be undone. They just prove that the perception can be different between things.
:thumbsup
The Feynman double slit experiment...a real mind blower. You've explained it for the Christian perspective perfectly. Now do Schrodinger's cat :biggrin2

These areas of thought and theory are fantastically fun when you attribute them to the God of the Bible.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
I know they have done some experiments showing time dilation but this just shows that two independent things can come back out of sink but they cannot change the series of events. Once those events happen they cannot be undone.
I ran out of time earlier but wanted to address this specifically...

All those words that you typed in that quote, when added together, simply mean that you admit to never owning a DeLorean... :rolleyes


Kidding aside, if time travel were possible, past event changing time travel, we would already know. So, you are 100% correct.
 

RobinMc

Well-Known Member
Okay. I have no issues with what you've posted. Let me restate with, Time as we know it, will cease. The analogue by which we measure will no longer exist. It won't be time with relativity and it won't have a "second one" any longer.
When there is no end to time, when we enter infinity, what will time matter? Other than Jesus saying, I'm giving a talk for everyone interested in an hour, THEN we'll need a watch. Or we'll all just go there immediately, early, to get a good seat. Close to Jesus.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
I ran out of time earlier but wanted to address this specifically...

All those words that you typed in that quote, when added together, simply mean that you admit to never owning a DeLorean... :rolleyes


Kidding aside, if time travel were possible, past event changing time travel, we would already know. So, you are 100% correct.
Some quantum physicists believe that the "arrow of time" can be reversed--that time is just an illusion in the minds of biological creatures like us.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
Some quantum physicists believe that the "arrow of time" can be reversed--that time is just an illusion in the minds of biological creatures like us.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the type, they also believe in Goo to Zoo to You and Me Too (attribution, Andy Woods). They also tend to believe in a ga-jillion years old earth. If it could've been done, it would've been done already.

My opinion on that is based on one thing, if time travel was a possibility and actually altering time was a possibility, there's zero doubt that satan and his nasty minions would have used it repeatedly to kill off the Messianic line. They didn't. They tried hard enough and often enough in the one timeline that does actually exist.

@Salluz answered the time issues perfectly for me.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
When there is no end to time, when we enter infinity, what will time matter? Other than Jesus saying, I'm giving a talk for everyone interested in an hour, THEN we'll need a watch. Or we'll all just go there immediately, early, to get a good seat. Close to Jesus.
I'm looking forward to living inside of that answer, I'll be able to let you know for sure then...if we can find the time :biggrin2

Until then, I'm very satisfied with post #141 and the answer @Salluz provided.
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm familiar with the type, they also believe in Goo to Zoo to You and Me Too (attribution, Andy Woods). They also tend to believe in a ga-jillion years old earth. If it could've been done, it would've been done already.

My opinion on that is based on one thing, if time travel was a possibility and actually altering time was a possibility, there's zero doubt that satan and his nasty minions would have used it repeatedly to kill off the Messianic line. They didn't. They tried hard enough and often enough in the one timeline that does actually exist.

@Salluz answered the time issues perfectly for me.

The intellectuals love to theorize and postulate but one thing's for sure: time exists. It is not an illusion. God created time as we know it as part of His salvific plan. In the stream of time, we live, we love, we make mistakes, we learn, and hopefully, we find God in the process. In the fullness of time, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem us and adopt us as His very own children.

Time is always moving forward. We don't move backwards. We can only look back at the things that happened which become part of our memories. And if we are wise enough to make that decision for Christ, we will spend eternity with Him - He who inhabits eternity, who was and is and is to come.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm familiar with the type, they also believe in Goo to Zoo to You and Me Too (attribution, Andy Woods). They also tend to believe in a ga-jillion years old earth. If it could've been done, it would've been done already.

My opinion on that is based on one thing, if time travel was a possibility and actually altering time was a possibility, there's zero doubt that satan and his nasty minions would have used it repeatedly to kill off the Messianic line. They didn't. They tried hard enough and often enough in the one timeline that does actually exist.

@Salluz answered the time issues perfectly for me.
I agree. Just pointing out that the godless are trying their worst to keep other scientists from coming to the conclusion that there is a Creator. They are losing though. Had a conversation a year or so ago with someone who works with a lot of physicists--he's an engineer and is a Christian. He has been witnessing for years to his physicist friends and they were always resistant--determined to be atheists. With the new discoveries from molecular biology (which the engineer leaves articles on in the lunchroom) the physicists are finding it harder and harder to avoid the implication that there IS a Creative Intelligence running the universe and biological systems. One day, the engineer was sitting in the lunchroom when a physicist friend entered the lunchroom, plopped his lunch on the table and said, gruffly, "I am now a deist--I hope you're happy now!" The engineer said that he told the physicist, "I will be happy when you make a commitment to Christ--that's next!" :heh
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
One more reason to be happy that my surgery is almost two months in the past :heh
Here are some questions I'd like to kick around with others involved in this thread: Do animals and young children live in the "perpetual present" and is that what makes them innocent? What is it about the acquisition of language and the rationality that is a part of learning language that leads to good or evil? If Logos is the "organizing principle of the universe," as the Greek philosophers believed, how is it that they could have arrived at even the very door to faith, in their inscription, "To an Unknown God," (Acts 17:23) and yet, were not convicted (some were not at all convinced) until Paul preached to them? If the Christian faith is a construct of the minds of humans, as most atheists believe, how could faith only have occurred with the preaching of the word? Without language, would the Fall have happened or would Adam and Eve have remained innocent?
 

Work4Peanuts

I like being just a Well-Known Member
Here are some questions I'd like to kick around with others involved in this thread: Do animals and young children live in the "perpetual present" and is that what makes them innocent? What is it about the acquisition of language and the rationality that is a part of learning language that leads to good or evil? If Logos is the "organizing principle of the universe," as the Greek philosophers believed, how is it that they could have arrived at even the very door to faith, in their inscription, "To an Unknown God," (Acts 17:23) and yet, were not convicted (some were not at all convinced) until Paul preached to them? If the Christian faith is a construct of the minds of humans, as most atheists believe, how could faith only have occurred with the preaching of the word? Without language, would the Fall have happened or would Adam and Eve have remained innocent?
I'm going to work backward from your post. According to Paul in Romans, there would be no sin without the law. It is by the law that we know what sin is, because sin is failure to follow the law. Without language, there could be no law. The fall could never have happened.
But we were made in God's image, and in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. God spoke and there was light. Language was inherent in the creation. It was His good will that we should be able to know and understand the law (which started out with just one commandment- don't eat that.)
Children and animals are innocent of the law because they are unable to comprehend it. The Christian faith is a construct of God.
 
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