Yeah, that thread is a great testament to the adage that iron sharpens iron. Worth reading to get a full understanding not only of the Olivet Discourse, but, also a good lesson in how a practical and conscientious fellowship such as ours can edify one another towards the goal of becoming more discerning and thus better able to recognize errant messages and teachings no matter how long those teachings have been around.
The Times of the Gentiles
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
acceptedinthebeloved
Well-Known Member
Yes. I personally see value in "keeping" threads which have posters presenting various viewpoints (I hate it when they are "nixed"... unless perhaps they are just downright ludicrous views or something... because I believe it serves as a GREAT "teaching tool" for all who are following/reading the interaction, as opposed to sending someone off to "read the article by-so-and-so-scholar" [not that that doesn't have value in its place, as well]).
I personally learn best, sometimes, by grappling through a subject WITH someone (rather than merely "reading" the thoughts of article-writers who aren't really there to answer the inevitable spur-of-the-moment questions which arise while I am reading them... )Good points, Steve53.
(I just wanted to make others aware, so no "confusion" results.)
RandallB
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the Trip down Memory Lane Steve!
It is a HUGE thread. 776 Posts!!!!
Just skimmed thru it.
Lots of discussion in the beginning posts on whether this was 70AD or not (from 2007).
A Jack Kelly article was posted about #121 re: Olivet = 2nd Coming and lots of discussion follows. Mostly against Jack.
A Dr Reagan article #244 which supported Olivet = 2nd Coming and NOT Rapture
AcceptedintheBeloved posted #258 in support of Olivet = 2nd Coming - onslaught ensued
AitB posted in #417 about wedding supper AFTER wedding
AitB continued to support Olivet = 2nd Coming over seven years! (2008 - Dec 2015) Several posters did support AitB thru this timeframe -- but AitB did the heavy lifting!
Jan51, Yours Truely and MetroAmes joined discussion late in Spring 2013 supporting AitB (in that Olivet = 2nd Coming)
(Great Times going back and forth with iSong!)
AitB made "Yet Another Great" Posting #742 last August which is below that talks about some of those that support Olivet = 2nd Coming.
acceptedintheBeloved
I agree with Thomas Ice that the wedding supper/feast is on the earth after His return (and is the equivalent to their entrance into the Millennial Kingdom). I believe there are a number of other scholars who hold to this view, but at the moment cannot recall who... (will try to go search for that...)
ETA: Matt 25:10NASB makes it clear it is "wedding feast" (as well as Matt 22:2NASBMatt 22:10NASB and its context... and I believe Lk 12:36-37 indicates same, where it says "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal)
ETA again: Arnold Fruchtenbaum [pg 597, FOTM] is one who agrees with this view (I thought I remembered that, and the Ice article confirms this)...
J Dwight Pentecost in his book "Things To Come" page 227, also agrees, where he says, "The marriage of the Lamb is an event that has particular reference to the church and takes place in heaven. The marriage supper is an event that involves Israel and takes place on the earth. [...] The wedding supper, then, becomes the parabolic picture of the entire millennial age, to which Israel will be invited during the tribulation period, which invitation many will reject and so they will be cast out, and many will accept and they will be received in." The Gentiles will also be included in this invitation...
John Walvoord in his book "Every Prophecy of the Bible" sounds slightly less solid on this position, but states on pages 618-619, "The invitation to attend the wedding supper is given further revelation as John wrote. 'Then the angel said to me, 'Write: "Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" ' ' (Rev. 19:9) Though the wedding feast is not said to take place here, it would seem reasonable that it would be part of the festivities on earth when the Lord Jesus comes with all His saints. [...] This passage distinguishes those who are invited to the wedding feast and those who are not and also distinguishes the bride and those who are not the bride."
Ed Hindson in his book "The Book of Revelation: Unlocking The Future" page 192 says, "Christ is still pictured symbolically as the Lamb (19:7), but the picture of the marriage is clearly expressed. The aorist tense of 'has come' (Greek, elthen) indicates a completed act, showing that the wedding is now consummated. Instead of the normal seven-day Jewish wedding ceremony, this one presumably lasts seven years (during the Tribulation period). The marriage is completed in heaven (Rev. 19:7), but the marriage supper probably takes place later on earth where Israel is awaiting the return of Christ and the Church." He continues, "This is the only clear way to distinguish the Bridegroom (Christ), the Bride (Church), and the ten virgins (Israel) in the passage in Matthew 25:1-13. There is no way that He is coming to marry all ten (or five) of these girls. They are the attendants (Old Testament [<--I disagree here, in one sense (the 10 Virgins are living people on the earth at His Second Coming)] and Tribulation saints [yes]) at the wedding [I believe the NASB verse 10 makes it clear it is the "wedding supper/feast" not the marriage]. Only the Church is the Bride. That is how Jesus could say of John the Baptist that there was no one 'greater than John [an Old Testament saint], yet he who is least in the kingdom of God [the New Testament Church] is greater than he' (Luke 7:28)."
Thomas Ice says of the parables: [taken from a different source]
[Regarding Olivet Discourse] These five parables are important lessons that relate to Israel. In fact, I would go so far as to say that all the parables in the New Testament relate directly to Israel. Often they relate to Israel' s rejection of Jesus as their Messiah and speak of consequences that will flow from such an act. Christ told His disciples in Matthew 13:10- 17that He would speak to " this people" (Israel) in order to blind them to the truth because of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. However, believers could come to understand the meaning of His parables because we are receptive of the revelation offered by Christ. Therefore, they all relate to Israel in some way, shape, or form and usually tell us something about God' s plan for the future.
The parables within the Olivet Discourse, when they speak of a coming, all relate to the second coming and not the rapture of the church. This is true because the entire Olivet Discourse was given to Israel and relates to her tribulation and Christ' s return at the end of that period. Truths relating to the rapture of the church are revealed exclusively in the New Testament Epistles, which were written specifically for the purpose of explaining the intent and nature of the Church age .
Here's another thread:
http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?1869...upper-Question
...and another quote by...
John Walvoord:
"Further confirmation is given that this [the marriage itself] is an event fulfilled in heaven rather than on earth in the millennium is the declaration in Revelation 19:7-9, at the time of the return of Christ to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom. The church is pictured as already the wife of the Lamb and as already arrayed in fine linen. The marriage of the Lamb is declared to have already come and now the invitation is extended to those outside the church, the body of Christ, to participate in the marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) which seems to be a spiritual representation of the millennium or at least its inauguration. As the marriage feast is the final stage, it should be clear that the Lamb has already come for His bride and claimed her previously in the rapture of the church. The marriage (Gr. gamos) is actually the entire ceremony subsequent to the coming of the bridegroom for the bride. In this marriage ceremony is the marriage supper (Gr. deitnon) which is the meal or supper proper."
(John W. Walvoord, The Nations, Israel, and The Church in Prophecy, Zondervan, 1967)[underlining and bolding mine]
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RandallB
Well-Known Member
One issue I did see (since you brought it up.... 
)
The OT Saints are only Resurrected AFTER the 2nd Coming per (Daniel 12:2-3 and 12:13).
So OT Saints really can't sit and enjoy any meal in Heaven since they will not have their Resurrected bodies yet. Jesus, Himself, used the fact that He ate solid food to prove He was not spirit but a Resurrected Man.
)The OT Saints are only Resurrected AFTER the 2nd Coming per (Daniel 12:2-3 and 12:13).
So OT Saints really can't sit and enjoy any meal in Heaven since they will not have their Resurrected bodies yet. Jesus, Himself, used the fact that He ate solid food to prove He was not spirit but a Resurrected Man.
RandallB
Well-Known Member
I also found a post of mine during that scan that I had forgotten regarding another teacher that teaches that the Olivet = Rapture and the bad paths it has led him down.
***************
The trouble comes in when "Olivet = Rapture" pastors and teachers such as Joseph Chambers ["The Rapture and the Oil of the Holy Ghost"] et al use the Olivet parables to beat their listeners as to their preparedness. That Under Prepared Christians are left out of the Banquet and that we must be "devoted members of the bride in waiting" or we are left out.
A few verses before these Olivet parables the Lord Himself sets the time frame to be AFTER the Great Tribulation, AFTER the sun and moon are darkened. The context is clearly POST-Trib. The Lord is describing how those that survive the Trib will be judged at the Great White Throne.
The "Faith in the Lord's finished work at the Cross" will still be required just as it is now. It is just that they seem to have a "As Demonstrated By" requirement that is additional.
Trib Saints must demonstrate their faith by examples such as:
• Matt 24:49 "begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards" For those in charge of His flocks - they must not lay unnecessary burdens on the flock (beating) nor dilute the Lord's doctrine or word with the worldly wisdom (drunkards).
• Matt 25:1-13 The Bridesmaids need to keep their faith until the Bridegroom shows up on His way to the Wedding Feast. Notice that they are denied entry to the Wedding Feast. The Wedding itself has already happened in Heaven BEFORE the Lord returned at the 2nd Coming. The Lord is between the Wedding and the Wedding Feast. This is when He encounters this group that is invited into the Feast. Again these are Trib Saints.
• Matt 25:14-29 Parable of the Talents shows that the Lord will be entrusting His servants with something very valuable - His Word. They will be judged on how they treated His Word.
The Lord continues in following verses with His description of the As Demonstrated By in the Feeding, Clothing, and Visiting His Jewish brothers. It will require a very large demonstration of Faith to help Jews during the Trib years.
Notice the penalty for not performing the "Works of Demonstration" or being "Unprepared"...
• Matt 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment,...
These are certainly NOT the penalties that Christians will suffer for not performing certain works or being "Unprepared" or not "Totally Devoted".
Yet these are exactly the areas that some pastors & teachers use to beat their listeners with. These are held up as the penalties for Under-Prepared Christians who are not 100% ready when the Lord returns. This is a Lordship Salvation type heresy.
The Trib Saints do not have OSAS as the Bride does. The Trib Saints also have an obedience/demonstration element to their salvation much like the OT Saints did.
I fully agree that the Bride should be looking forward to the imminent return of the Lord for His Bride. They should be using the time they have wisely to help others and do the work of the Lord while there is still time.
However, we must make sure that we are not reading someone else's mail when we instruct others. Otherwise terrible messages can be used to beat members of the Bride over their works and fear of their salvation /security can result.
As a closing point the issue that the "Olivet = Rapture" teachers bring up of "Under Prepared Christians" is EXACTLY the WRONG message that the Lord wants sent to His Bride. They infer that Under Prepared Christians are left out of the Banquet. This is the same heresy that Nancy Missler (and later Chuck) is propagating with her Overcomers / Overcamers message where some Christians are not worthy to get the full treatment and will be left in the Outer Darkness based on their behavior/preparedness. (But they claim that although there is gnashing of teeth this Outer Darkness isn't hell......??????)
I totally disagree with the concept that we must be "totally devoted members of the bride in waiting" in order to get into the Banquet as Joseph Chambers advocates.
First -- The Bride is cannot be excluded from the Banquet (especially not partially). The wedding has already happened in Heaven before the Groom returns to collect the banquet attendees - Trib Saints.
Second – The Bride has ZERO Preparation Requirements. Her requirements are totally based on Faith Alone in Christ Alone. In Fact, trusting in their Preparedness for entrance would be counted as a sin for the Bride. (There are Rewards at the Bema for "Preparedness" however.)
***************
The trouble comes in when "Olivet = Rapture" pastors and teachers such as Joseph Chambers ["The Rapture and the Oil of the Holy Ghost"] et al use the Olivet parables to beat their listeners as to their preparedness. That Under Prepared Christians are left out of the Banquet and that we must be "devoted members of the bride in waiting" or we are left out.
A few verses before these Olivet parables the Lord Himself sets the time frame to be AFTER the Great Tribulation, AFTER the sun and moon are darkened. The context is clearly POST-Trib. The Lord is describing how those that survive the Trib will be judged at the Great White Throne.
The "Faith in the Lord's finished work at the Cross" will still be required just as it is now. It is just that they seem to have a "As Demonstrated By" requirement that is additional.
Trib Saints must demonstrate their faith by examples such as:
• Matt 24:49 "begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards" For those in charge of His flocks - they must not lay unnecessary burdens on the flock (beating) nor dilute the Lord's doctrine or word with the worldly wisdom (drunkards).
• Matt 25:1-13 The Bridesmaids need to keep their faith until the Bridegroom shows up on His way to the Wedding Feast. Notice that they are denied entry to the Wedding Feast. The Wedding itself has already happened in Heaven BEFORE the Lord returned at the 2nd Coming. The Lord is between the Wedding and the Wedding Feast. This is when He encounters this group that is invited into the Feast. Again these are Trib Saints.
• Matt 25:14-29 Parable of the Talents shows that the Lord will be entrusting His servants with something very valuable - His Word. They will be judged on how they treated His Word.
The Lord continues in following verses with His description of the As Demonstrated By in the Feeding, Clothing, and Visiting His Jewish brothers. It will require a very large demonstration of Faith to help Jews during the Trib years.
Notice the penalty for not performing the "Works of Demonstration" or being "Unprepared"...
• Matt 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
• Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment,...
These are certainly NOT the penalties that Christians will suffer for not performing certain works or being "Unprepared" or not "Totally Devoted".
Yet these are exactly the areas that some pastors & teachers use to beat their listeners with. These are held up as the penalties for Under-Prepared Christians who are not 100% ready when the Lord returns. This is a Lordship Salvation type heresy.
The Trib Saints do not have OSAS as the Bride does. The Trib Saints also have an obedience/demonstration element to their salvation much like the OT Saints did.
I fully agree that the Bride should be looking forward to the imminent return of the Lord for His Bride. They should be using the time they have wisely to help others and do the work of the Lord while there is still time.
However, we must make sure that we are not reading someone else's mail when we instruct others. Otherwise terrible messages can be used to beat members of the Bride over their works and fear of their salvation /security can result.
As a closing point the issue that the "Olivet = Rapture" teachers bring up of "Under Prepared Christians" is EXACTLY the WRONG message that the Lord wants sent to His Bride. They infer that Under Prepared Christians are left out of the Banquet. This is the same heresy that Nancy Missler (and later Chuck) is propagating with her Overcomers / Overcamers message where some Christians are not worthy to get the full treatment and will be left in the Outer Darkness based on their behavior/preparedness. (But they claim that although there is gnashing of teeth this Outer Darkness isn't hell......??????)
I totally disagree with the concept that we must be "totally devoted members of the bride in waiting" in order to get into the Banquet as Joseph Chambers advocates.
First -- The Bride is cannot be excluded from the Banquet (especially not partially). The wedding has already happened in Heaven before the Groom returns to collect the banquet attendees - Trib Saints.
Second – The Bride has ZERO Preparation Requirements. Her requirements are totally based on Faith Alone in Christ Alone. In Fact, trusting in their Preparedness for entrance would be counted as a sin for the Bride. (There are Rewards at the Bema for "Preparedness" however.)
One issue I did see (since you brought it up....
The OT Saints are only Resurrected AFTER the 2nd Coming per (Daniel 12:2-3 and 12:13).
So OT Saints really can't sit and enjoy any meal in Heaven since they will not have their Resurrected bodies yet. Jesus, Himself, used the fact that He ate solid food to prove He was not spirit but a Resurrected Man.
Looks like you caught a typo on my part! Nice catch. I need to correct that as I'm not sure even why I wrote it when I know I meant to imply only the dead in Christ who are resurrected along with those alive at the Rapture actually eat a meal...
Getting old I guess. Need an editor!
ETA- I just now had to review what that part of the discussion was about....yeah, I wasn't clear at all. Fixed now.
I was trying to illustrate the difference between eating a meal and the symbolism of the Millennium Banquet....
Typing then, as I am now on my phone, prohibited me from seeing all that I typed as I went along.
Silly me. Missed it by that much....
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RandallB
Well-Known Member
Looks like you caught a typo on my part! Nice catch. I need to correct that as I'm not sure even why I wrote it when I know I meant to imply only the dead in Christ who are resurrected along with those alive at the Rapture actually eat a meal...
Getting old I guess. Need an editor!
ETA- I just now had to review what that part of the discussion was about....yeah, I wasn't clear at all. Fixed now.
I was trying to illustrate the difference between eating a meal and the symbolism of the Millennium Banquet....
Typing then, as I am now on my phone, prohibited me from seeing all that I typed as I went along.
Silly me. Missed it by that much....
So just Who are the invited guests at the Wedding Banquet of the Lamb if it is held in heaven???
The Supper is held in heaven, the "banquet" is the millennium itself. The invited guests are the OT Saints and the tribulation survivors.
RandallB
Well-Known Member
So the Bride and Groom are the only participants in the Wedding Supper in Heaven? (being the only resurrected beings)
And there will be the Wedding Banquet with the Bride, Groom, Resurrected OT / Post Rapture Saints, & Sheep-Mortals that have entered into the Millennial Kingdom?
In a metaphoric sense, yes. I also see a timing distinction between the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (an actual meal) and the Wedding Banquet (the Millennium itself). In other words, IMHO, the wedding banquet idea confuses a lot of people because it arises from the parable of the same name. In the parable, uninvited guests (the unsaved) are shown the door along with the 5 bridesmaids who allowed their oil to run out (those folks who came to an understanding of saving faith during Daniel's 70th week but were unfaithful in the end). The "banquet" in the parable is metaphorically representative of the Millennium and is not an actual dining experience. We know the Millennium doesn't begin until after the Second Coming, so then the "banquet" has to occur afterwards.
And none of the above is meant to suggest that the OT Saints won't be enjoying meals with Our Lord in His Kingdom post 2nd Coming.
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RandallB
Well-Known Member
Then who are the Blessed ones that are invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Rev 19:9???
The 5th Horseman of the Apocalypse rides for the 2nd Coming in verse 11 just 2 verses later (with just a confused attempt to worship an angel with associated rebuke in verse 10).
Where is there time in this sequence for a Supper in Heaven???
And this meal is really called the Supper (SG# 1173 deipnon) of the Marriage (SG# 1062 gamou) that all the Blessed are being invited to.
So again, scripture plainly states that the Marriage Supper is after the 2nd Coming, which is the ONLY time when all the Resurrected OT/Post-Rapture Saints and Sheep-Mortals (Blessed ones) can join in the Supper -- at the Beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.
Which again, is exactly what Dr Ice, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, J Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord, Ed Hindson, Pre-2007-Missler, and Jack Kelly, all teach that scripture declares: Wedding Supper = after 2nd Coming.
Personally, I would have to take a real long drink of cold water and have some really rock solid plain speaking scripture (that they all missed) to go against that crowd of scriptural teachers when they all agree that Wedding Supper = after 2nd Coming at the beginning of the MK.
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acceptedinthebeloved
Well-Known Member
Don't forget Robert Dean... and ...Alva J McClain who wrote "The Greatness of the Kingdom" which one writer/teacher said is "One of the 'must have' books" (on the list of "Recommended Reading in Dispensationalism")
I forget whether or not Dr Andy Woods views it this way... Anyone know? (I was just curious, is all.
)Interesting "play by play" post you put earlier, RandallB!
(you have a greater amount of perseverance than I possess, lol... to wade through that entire thread and find all that! Ha!)
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http://christinprophecy.org/articles/why-i-believe-in-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/
8) The Church is busy elsewhere during the Tribulation.
While the 7-year Tribulation is occurring, the Bible records the Church will be busy with three events. None of the three have to do with suffering on a world being destroyed.
The first event the raptured Church will participate in is a judgment by God — the Judgment of the Just. This judgment on works is not to determine eternal destiny, but to determine degrees of reward (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:6-9).
The second event is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This feast celebrates the spiritual marriage of Christ’s Bride — the Church — to her Savior. Revelation 19:7-9 shares this wonderful celebration, “Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, ‘Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ And he added, ‘These are the true words of God.'”
The third event follows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and is the Church’s preparation to follow the King of Kings into the Battle of Armageddon at the conclusion of the Tribulation. This event is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19:11-21). Revelation 19:14 identifies the Church in their “fine linen, white and clean,” which was given to them during the first event — the Judgment of the Just. The Church and angelic forces follow the King of Kings into His Second Coming to the earth, but only Jesus Himself will engage in battle and with mere words defeats the nations in siege against Jerusalem.
8) The Church is busy elsewhere during the Tribulation.
While the 7-year Tribulation is occurring, the Bible records the Church will be busy with three events. None of the three have to do with suffering on a world being destroyed.
The first event the raptured Church will participate in is a judgment by God — the Judgment of the Just. This judgment on works is not to determine eternal destiny, but to determine degrees of reward (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:6-9).
The second event is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This feast celebrates the spiritual marriage of Christ’s Bride — the Church — to her Savior. Revelation 19:7-9 shares this wonderful celebration, “Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, ‘Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ And he added, ‘These are the true words of God.'”
The third event follows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and is the Church’s preparation to follow the King of Kings into the Battle of Armageddon at the conclusion of the Tribulation. This event is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19:11-21). Revelation 19:14 identifies the Church in their “fine linen, white and clean,” which was given to them during the first event — the Judgment of the Just. The Church and angelic forces follow the King of Kings into His Second Coming to the earth, but only Jesus Himself will engage in battle and with mere words defeats the nations in siege against Jerusalem.
One issue I did see (since you brought it up....
The OT Saints are only Resurrected AFTER the 2nd Coming per (Daniel 12:2-3 and 12:13).
So OT Saints really can't sit and enjoy any meal in Heaven since they will not have their Resurrected bodies yet. Jesus, Himself, used the fact that He ate solid food to prove He was not spirit but a Resurrected Man.
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is for the Groom and the Bride. Only the church is called the Bride. And therefore, only the church (bride) will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb with Jesus and the Father. Not other folks from different ages. Remember, the church is a special creation, we were justified by faith, not sight and works like others in the past.
Also, I went back and read Revelation Chapters 19-21 and there is NO WAY to place the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in the MK unless you just already have that view running around in your head. The clear meaning from the scriptures without any presupposed views is to use the Golden Rule of Interpretation by Dr. David L. Cooper and take the verses to mean exactly what they say literally unless there is some good reason to not take it literally. It is clear that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is in Revelation 19 BEFORE the Second Coming, which means it's in Heaven during the Tribulation. No doubt at all if you go straight by the Book.
It is clear as was mentioned here:When Does The Wedding Supper Happen?
Sunday, February 5th, 2012
Q. I’ve run into a problem with the timing of the Wedding supper and Matt 26:29. Rev 19:9 is kind of vague, coming as it does with the return of Christ with His bride verses in chapter 19. But the bigger issue is what is meant by “…when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom,” in reference to the 4th cup of wine, the wedding feast cup.
A. The 4th cup of the Passover is the cup of acceptance, and symbolizes the Lord’s statement in Exodus 6:7 “I will take you as my own people and I will be your God.” I’m not familiar with any Biblical teaching that compares the wedding cup to the 4th Cup of Passover. Jesus interrupted the Passover celebration at the Last Supper to say He would not drink wine again until He drank it with us in the Kingdom. But the last thing He did before dying was to drink a sip of wine. John said He did this knowing that all was completed and so the Scripture would be fulfilled (John 19:28-30). I believe He was drinking the 4th cup of the Passover, saying that for all who believed He would take us as His own people and would be our God.
He wasn’t marrying us at that time, He was paying the so-called Bride price which would qualify Him to marry us later. Both tradition and logic dictate the marriage will take place immediately following the rapture. Then we will spend the 7 year bride week with Him while Daniel’s 70th Week plays out on Earth. Otherwise the honeymoon would precede the wedding. According to Rev. 19 the wedding banquet will take place in Heaven just before the Lord returns to establish His Kingdom on Earth.
Alva J McClain who wrote "The Greatness of the Kingdom" which one writer/teacher said is "One of the 'must have' books" (on the list of "Recommended Reading in Dispensationalism")
I forget whether or not Dr Andy Woods views it this way... Anyone know? (I was just curious, is all.
Interesting "play by play" post you put earlier, RandallB!
We don't care what others have to say just what the scripture has to say, now that I've gone back and read the chapters 19-21, you got a real problem with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in the MK. The chronological order in Revelation 19 shows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is BEFORE Jesus returns at the Second Coming. Where is Jesus before the Second Coming? In Heaven with the Bride. There's no if's, and's, or but's about it. It is clear as crystal to read the passages just as they are and without twisting them to say what they don't literally say.Remember, 3 events happen in Heaven while the 7 year Tribulation goes on:
While the 7-year Tribulation is occurring, the Bible records the Church will be busy with three events. None of the three have to do with suffering on a world being destroyed.
The first event the raptured Church will participate in is a judgment by God — the Judgment of the Just. This judgment on works is not to determine eternal destiny, but to determine degrees of reward (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19:6-9).
The second event is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. This feast celebrates the spiritual marriage of Christ’s Bride — the Church — to her Savior. Revelation 19:7-9 shares this wonderful celebration, “Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, ‘Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ And he added, ‘These are the true words of God.'”
The third event follows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and is the Church’s preparation to follow the King of Kings into the Battle of Armageddon at the conclusion of the Tribulation. This event is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19:11-21). Revelation 19:14 identifies the Church in their “fine linen, white and clean,” which was given to them during the first event — the Judgment of the Just. The Church and angelic forces follow the King of Kings into His Second Coming to the earth, but only Jesus Himself will engage in battle and with mere words defeats the nations in siege against Jerusalem.
Yeah, I know I have a minority opinion! And agree that all those listed above (with the possible exception of Jack Kelley because some of Jack's writings would seem to suggest otherwise) also disagree with me. ..Let's drop back to Rev. 19:7-9 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Notice that verses 7 and 8 are past tense? For me, that was the first inkling that maybe we shouldn't automatically conflate the meaning of a parable into the narrative of Revelation. After all, a parable is merely an earthly model of a Heavenly Truth, not necessarily an exacting description of a time line.
Throughout, the Bible mentions many who are "blessed" including those who come to Christ and faithfully await his return while the world suffers through the Tribulation period. However, the one blessing that sticks out for me in the context of the Marriage Supper is the one from Jesus in response to Thomas: John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Since the Cross, only the Church has been called to belief without sight.
Yeah, my reasoning is admittedly thin but it's also bolstered a bit by another notion. What husband, after just having been married, is going to postpone his wedding supper (the actual meal) to go out and do battle with his enemies?
Remember the Church is sequestered in Heaven with Christ during the entirety of Daniel's 70th week. There's plenty of time for a meal between the Bride and her Groom. The celebratory banquet with invited guests is a larger scale event and lasts much longer. And that's a huge part of why I believe the Wedding Parable stands as a euphemism for the Millennium and should not be used as a supporting argument for the inclusion of the OT Saints and resurrected Tribulation Martyrs at the actual wedding meal itself.
ETA - Looks like Chris posted while I was slow typing.....
I tried to tell them that before but they wouldn't listen. They want to place the Marriage Supper of the Lamb happening after the Second Coming, after the renovation of Earth, while the bride is New Jerusalem, while Jesus is ruling from the throne of David in Jerusalem, etc. etc. etc. It just doesn't fit. A plain reading of the Revelation shows the Marriage Supper of the Lamb comes BEFORE the Second Coming, which means it is still in the Tribulation period, NOT the MK. Hence the past tense usage of the scripture in Rev 19:7-8 like you said.
I've already had to close one thread on this. You can find it in the Bible Q&A forum under the "parable of the ten virgins".
This is another area where I disagree with a majority of Bible scholars. I don't necessarily believe the Church will ride into this battle. No husband I can think of would take his Bride into such carnage. It's possible we could come on the scene later. I think the "Army of the Lord" is comprised of a heavenly host of Angels - not any members of the Church.
The Church and angelic forces follow the King of Kings into His Second Coming to the earth, but only Jesus Himself will engage in battle and with mere words defeats the nations in siege against Jerusalem. The church is there but we don't participate. Notice also that the church and angelic forces are together with Jesus in front slaying the armies of Armageddon with just His words. No fighting.
acceptedinthebeloved
Well-Known Member
Says one who has just quoted Jack Kelley in the previous post. lolJust teasing ya, brother... Our "smilies" match!
I'm not sure if you're saying what I've pointed out before, or not... that Jack Kelley's writings on this particular point, seemed to have changed from the time of his February 2012 posting (quoted by Chris above), to his May 2012 article (quoted by Chris in the other thread [Bible Study forum]).It caused me to wonder whether he changed his stance on this, within that time period, back then...
Again, I will just say that I believe the mention of a "marriage supper" in Rev 19, hails back to the teachings of Jesus in the gospels (which I believe are pointing to the same thing: the future MK [following His return to the earth], and their entrance into it. The bride/wife is "singular" whereas the invited guests [and so forth] are "plural"... even in Rev 19.)
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