The Rapture is Real

PortWen

Well-Known Member
This is NOT a multiple rapture theory either...

It is NOT a partial rapture, either, .....
Actually it is both those things - and they are both unBiblical, as is a mid-trip rapture. There is no Scriptural basis for those beliefs. I understand your confusion because there is so much false teaching on the rapture. I was confused too. But not anymore - I am now certain of the pretrib rapture (of the entire believing body). But it has taken months and months of Bible study, prayer, reading books, listening to sermons.

I understand your loyalty to your church but they are teaching some rotten stuff about the rapture.

Just a few other things....

Paul, when he talks about not having reached the goal, is talking about achieving Christlikeness - something we are to pursue diligently and earnestly, (ie sanctification) but which we will not fully attain in our earthly bodies. There is no "higher calling" than salvation.

And in Rev 3:11, the crown is eternal life. Anyone who is truly saved will not lose that "crown". If they do, they were not saved to start with. (Yes, our works will be judged at the Bema Judgement but that is AFTER the rapture - and then we may have a lesser reward if our works don't cut the mustard - but we will all have some reward - and this could be the capacity in which we serve Jesus in the Millennial Kingdom and in eternity....after all, it is pictured in Rev 4 that the elders cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus so maybe all our crowns/rewards will be given back to Him anyway.)

In 1 Corinthians 15:41 Paul is talking about the nature of the post-resurrection body - how our new body will be different from our earthly body. It has nothing to do with our place and rewards in heaven.

Also want to add, that it is good to pray for your children, your marriage and other 'mundane' things. We are still here on earth and have all sorts of issues and are to bring all of those to the Lord. Jesus is coming soon, imminently, but how soon is soon? It sure looks like it could be in our lifetime but nobody knows for certain. So we continue to live faithfully, doing whatever we are called to do - and simultaneously to look for His coming.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
There are not two different churches/brides. The bride has always been the church and the church has always been the bride. One group isn't more qualified because *insert reason here* The only qualification to be a part of the church/bride is to put your faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of your life for the forgiveness of your sins. That's it.

When the rapture takes place, many people will be surprised and that is OK. Many will be taken and they will be very surprised to instantly be in the presence of glory.
Yes, strongly concur.

If there were a partial rapture, who would make the cut? How would it be determined? The rapture is not a works based position but a calling home by Jesus for ALL of His church - even those whom are lukewarm which is probably the vast majority of His church.
 

newtofaith

Well-Known Member
Couldn't the blessed hope simply mean the fact that when we die (however we die and at what time) we know we are going to heaven? Why does it have to refer to the rapture?
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I actually have a real problem with this. As some of you know--although most of you probably don't cuz I have noticed a very large influx of new members which is awesome--I grew up in a church that doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture for everyone. Oh, they believe in pre-trib FOR SURE but they believe the pre-trib rapture is a reward for only those who are part of the Bride of Christ which is NOT the whole church. (This is what they preach, not necessarily what I believe) They count the rest of the church as the innumerable multitude that is caught up mid-trib. (which makes sense to me cuz if we can number the population NOW--7,874,965,825--than how can it be innumerable after have lost half the population in the tribulation?).

This is NOT a multiple rapture theory either (altho, even pre-trib is multiple rapture using Enoch is an example. He walked with God and was not).

It is NOT a partial rapture, either, as it is not even remotely based on works. This is where most of you will argue against this theory and I get that. However and in fact, this is THE most grace-based church I have ever attended (including this board who often has trouble with Galatians 3:3.."Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" ). The church I grew up in believes it is a HEART issue...a LOVE STORY. It is NOT a salvation issue. And I can tell you personally, that the many people I have known and loved my entire life from this church are not only saved, they are bible believing CHRISTIANS who truly love Jesus. My mom is one of them. My great-grandparents helped START the church. I WISH I could possess the kind of faith they do/did. They believe in every single thing that is preached here at RF except they believe it only applies only to the Bride and not the whole church. They believe the Bride is a rib-portion of the church...a smaller group of people for whom Jesus is truly their first love. After all, why would Jesus want to marry someone who is only luke warm? BUT PLEASE HEAR ME....this is NOT a works based belief.

They firmly believe that this is NOT a salvation issue, either, as they firmly preach and believe the OSAS doctrine, but it, at the same time, is the only philosophy that makes any sense at all of Rev 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown". In other words, do not leave your first love. You can't lose your salvation, but might lose your place in the thrown room. After all, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.. (I Corinthians 15:41)

I know I am breaking rules by stating an even partial belief in another philosophy. But I have so many questions about this and I can't ask you all because this is a pre-trib forum and I am breaking rules. And I get that. It is what makes this forum so much better than many others I have frequented. This is, in fact, the only one I have ever joined because there is so much less discord among members. But I also can't ask the pastor I grew up with for over 40 years because then I am accused of following "itching ears". I am also told to seek the Bible for answers, but I see both sides VERY clearly. In fact, they complement one another. It's not impossible to believe BOTH if you apply pre-trib theory to only the Bride and not the whole church.

@athenasius You have always been so kind in calming my fears and you have no idea what an impact you have had on my faith. I appreciate you more than you will ever know, and I look forward to telling you in person one day. I am sorry this comes up as often as it does, but the closer we get, the more I worry about not making the cut. Am I too caught up in praying for my children's future? Does that make me worldly? Have I traded my first love of JESUS for prayers over my children's safety and protection? Am I too caught up in praying for my marriage and my children and "Red Sea, burning bush" type moments for our direction? I mean, if Jesus is really coming as soon as I THINK He is then why bother with the mundane?

The ONLY thing that keeps me rooted in Pre-Trib, actually, is "The Blessed Hope". I mean, no one can "encourage me with these words" if I may or may not "make the cut". That is not very hopeful, kwim? PLEASE remember that I am NOT AT ALL worried about my salvation. THAT is a done deal that has been resolved in my heart from the get-go over 50 years ago. But if Paul didn't know if HE had attained the higher calling, then how can I? That alone indicates a higher calling than just salvation. "12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Doesn't that feel like there is a higher calling than just salvation?

I don't come around here that often anymore because I often find myself very discouraged and that is not the testimony I want to leave behind. The JOY of the LORD is my STRENGTH. But there are so many faithful warriors here that I couldn't let this one go without comment. Just because one doesn't fully believe in the pre-trib rapture does NOT mean they aren't a fully saved Christian. I stand by that and won't apologize for it. That said, I subscribe to Jonathan's newsletter and almost always agree with his thoughts. <3

Please don't delete me. I am really curious as to what people here think....Mods, if this is not conducive to keeping a fully-agreeing board then I totally understand. But could one of you reply to my email personally cuz I am really strugging with this...THANK YOU.

I would also like to add that I am currently filled with a great sense of anticipation. Jesus is coming soon! I KNOW it!

XOXO
Don't feel discouraged. Maybe some will disagree but, I do believe that many believers have some doubt about some theology of some kind, even the timing of the rapture. But, the most important thing that we All as believers shouldn't doubt is our belief in what brought us to salvation, because after all, this is what saves us.
Jesus himself in Who He is, what He came for, and What we need to do for salvation. But to add, there are some churches who teach not only a difference of the timing of the rapture but with that the false belief in salvation not just that works are needed, a false view of what we are being saved from. I believe we are saved from the wrath of God, because there will be the tribulation saints who are saved too but have to go through a portion of the tribulation.

Ephe 1:13-14 is especially clear in explaining this. “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed you were marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit Who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance …”

We hear and believe and immediately the Lord marks us with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, and guarantees our place in His Eternal Kingdom. The Greek word translated “deposit” means the Lord has entered into a legally binding obligation to save us, and has given us the Holy Spirit to guarantee it. It’s similar to an earnest money deposit, used in the real estate industry to legally bind a buyer to follow through on his agreement to purchase property.
https://gracethrufaith.com/topical-studies/spiritual-life/the-essentials-of-salvation/

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9

So IMO, the timing of the rapture does not qualify for salvation but is what enhances our hope of what we are saved from, the wrath of God. But, all believers need to be alert that other false teachings are not in-twined with the teaching of salvation.
 

PortWen

Well-Known Member
Couldn't the blessed hope simply mean the fact that when we die (however we die and at what time) we know we are going to heaven? Why does it have to refer to the rapture?
Because the words "blessed hope" are connected to the "appearance of Jesus"...."3 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"

In Greek grammar, when there are two nouns in the same case connected by "and"(kai), the first noun has the definite article (the = Greek word ten), and the second noun lacks the definite article, then the second noun refers to the same thing as the first noun and serves as a further description. Thus, the blessed hope is the appearing of the glory of our Lord.
 

MikeD

Well-Known Member
To me, to deny a Pre-trib rapture is to deny God's relationship and love to and for the Bride of Christ!
Because of what Jesus did for us on the cross, we are considered brothers and sisters of Jesus Himself. Also, we are considered sons and daughters of our most high God. How can Daddy God even consider to trash and beat up the Bride before bringing us home to His house?!? Obviously won't happen!!
 
Most pastors ignore Paul, that's why they are confused. They don't understand different programs for Jews and Gentiles.
This I believe is one of the main issues today as it pertains to people being confused about the Bible's teaching. There are so many people I talk to today who are confused about the Rapture, eternal salvation, and some even think we're still under the Law of the OT.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
Me too…am up to lesson 35 and have been so amazed at the depth of the teaching…and so incredibly encouraged. I’ve had a number of doubts eradicated by this series. I listen to it all day as I work (self-employed doing sewing) and have a notebook open next to my sewing machine to jot down important points.
I’m so grateful to have found the series (found it through this forum).
I strongly suggest that you follow with Daniel (which he calls the basement) and the Revelation (which he calls the ceiling).

Those three studies taken together are a wonderful experience. Also, Soteriology and Angelology are fantastic.
 

PortWen

Well-Known Member
I strongly suggest that you follow with Daniel (which he calls the basement) and the Revelation (which he calls the ceiling).

Those three studies taken together are a wonderful experience. Also, Soteriology and Angelology are fantastic.
Yes I plan to do Daniel and Revelation…have also done the Kingdom series…I got so tired of not being able to coherently answer all the amillennialists …they can be so aggressive….and now I can. :) He’s a good teacher.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
I actually have a real problem with this. As some of you know--although most of you probably don't cuz I have noticed a very large influx of new members which is awesome--I grew up in a church that doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture for everyone. Oh, they believe in pre-trib FOR SURE but they believe the pre-trib rapture is a reward for only those who are part of the Bride of Christ which is NOT the whole church. (This is what they preach, not necessarily what I believe) They count the rest of the church as the innumerable multitude that is caught up mid-trib. (which makes sense to me cuz if we can number the population NOW--7,874,965,825--than how can it be innumerable after have lost half the population in the tribulation?).

This is NOT a multiple rapture theory either (altho, even pre-trib is multiple rapture using Enoch is an example. He walked with God and was not).

It is NOT a partial rapture, either, as it is not even remotely based on works. This is where most of you will argue against this theory and I get that. However and in fact, this is THE most grace-based church I have ever attended (including this board who often has trouble with Galatians 3:3.."Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" ). The church I grew up in believes it is a HEART issue...a LOVE STORY. It is NOT a salvation issue. And I can tell you personally, that the many people I have known and loved my entire life from this church are not only saved, they are bible believing CHRISTIANS who truly love Jesus. My mom is one of them. My great-grandparents helped START the church. I WISH I could possess the kind of faith they do/did. They believe in every single thing that is preached here at RF except they believe it only applies only to the Bride and not the whole church. They believe the Bride is a rib-portion of the church...a smaller group of people for whom Jesus is truly their first love. After all, why would Jesus want to marry someone who is only luke warm? BUT PLEASE HEAR ME....this is NOT a works based belief.

They firmly believe that this is NOT a salvation issue, either, as they firmly preach and believe the OSAS doctrine, but it, at the same time, is the only philosophy that makes any sense at all of Rev 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown". In other words, do not leave your first love. You can't lose your salvation, but might lose your place in the thrown room. After all, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.. (I Corinthians 15:41)

I know I am breaking rules by stating an even partial belief in another philosophy. But I have so many questions about this and I can't ask you all because this is a pre-trib forum and I am breaking rules. And I get that. It is what makes this forum so much better than many others I have frequented. This is, in fact, the only one I have ever joined because there is so much less discord among members. But I also can't ask the pastor I grew up with for over 40 years because then I am accused of following "itching ears". I am also told to seek the Bible for answers, but I see both sides VERY clearly. In fact, they complement one another. It's not impossible to believe BOTH if you apply pre-trib theory to only the Bride and not the whole church.

@athenasius You have always been so kind in calming my fears and you have no idea what an impact you have had on my faith. I appreciate you more than you will ever know, and I look forward to telling you in person one day. I am sorry this comes up as often as it does, but the closer we get, the more I worry about not making the cut. Am I too caught up in praying for my children's future? Does that make me worldly? Have I traded my first love of JESUS for prayers over my children's safety and protection? Am I too caught up in praying for my marriage and my children and "Red Sea, burning bush" type moments for our direction? I mean, if Jesus is really coming as soon as I THINK He is then why bother with the mundane?

The ONLY thing that keeps me rooted in Pre-Trib, actually, is "The Blessed Hope". I mean, no one can "encourage me with these words" if I may or may not "make the cut". That is not very hopeful, kwim? PLEASE remember that I am NOT AT ALL worried about my salvation. THAT is a done deal that has been resolved in my heart from the get-go over 50 years ago. But if Paul didn't know if HE had attained the higher calling, then how can I? That alone indicates a higher calling than just salvation. "12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Doesn't that feel like there is a higher calling than just salvation?

I don't come around here that often anymore because I often find myself very discouraged and that is not the testimony I want to leave behind. The JOY of the LORD is my STRENGTH. But there are so many faithful warriors here that I couldn't let this one go without comment. Just because one doesn't fully believe in the pre-trib rapture does NOT mean they aren't a fully saved Christian. I stand by that and won't apologize for it. That said, I subscribe to Jonathan's newsletter and almost always agree with his thoughts. <3

Please don't delete me. I am really curious as to what people here think....Mods, if this is not conducive to keeping a fully-agreeing board then I totally understand. But could one of you reply to my email personally cuz I am really strugging with this...THANK YOU.

I would also like to add that I am currently filled with a great sense of anticipation. Jesus is coming soon! I KNOW it!

XOXO
:thumbup

Very well expressed thoughts.

I know that my first post is strongly worded and can be taken by some (not necessarily you or your excellent post) as being judgemental. And I'd probably agree with that assessment, but will explain why...

I firmly believe that we have no place judging under the umbrella of condemnation, that alone is GOD'S purview, and thank GOD for that. In light of that, I firmly believe that assuming someone is saved is just as bad as assuming someone is not saved. I see both as judgements in light of eternity, and I see both as dwelling in category wrong.

So, my judgement is based on what people express as doctrine and belief. Some call it fruit inspection and I'm okay with terms like that. So, everyone I meet, everyone I have the privilege to interact with is essentially the next opportunity to be a Berean. If my discearnemt sends up flares or raises troubling flags my default position is the assumption of that they are unsaved until I'm comfortable that they are saved.

My read on the line you quote from the article (the entire article too, actually) is exactly that last bit in the above paragraph. If they have a very far afield view of clear Biblical doctrine, I must interact with them as if they are unsaved. Otherwise, I'm always concerned that I've trod an easy relational path based on assumptions that could have dire eternal consequences.

I hope I've expressed that clearly. I really appreciate the way you articulated your positions and concerns in your post. And being frank, I've been staying away quite a lot as well. It has often been VERY discouraging around here for many reasons...and I'm about too afraid to post why.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I hope I've expressed that clearly. I really appreciate the way you articulated your positions and concerns in your post. And being frank, I've been staying away quite a lot as well. It has often been VERY discouraging around here for many reasons...and I'm about too afraid to post why.
You always express yourself well, but now you caused me to be curious about you are referring too.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Its not only about the rapture, but it can also be other scriptures/doctrine too. I have a brother who pointblank told me that there is nothing in the Bible that addresses homosexuality. He is a professing believer in Jesus. I don't know how anyone can read Romans chapter 1 and say that the bible doesn't address homosexuality as well as other areas in scriptures. He just kept saying it doesn't say that...

I never want to appear as though I could ever judge someone else's standing with God on salvation because I cant, but in the case of the rapture, the people that say they don't believe it have to ignore bold and clear statements in scripture that say what the event will be like, that we are not appointed to wrath, that the Restrainer must be removed first then the lawlessness one will come, dismiss precedence of where God "caught up" others to heaven, and on and on! I am left scratching my head wondering how do you just dismiss scripture like that? Do you think you can just pick and chose what you want to believe and not believe in the Bible? Its this blindness to what is written in front of you that concerns me about some people who claim to believe in God, yet cannot physically see words in front of them.

I don't always understand everything I read in the Bible but I still believe everything I read in the Bible...
The reason why it wasn't addressed by Jesus (your friend didn't even get that right--of course the Bible addresses it) is because Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience pretty exclusively, for most of His sojourn here. Jews understood the strong prohibitions against ALL forms of sexual sin. The Apostle Paul had to address it again when he moved into Gentile evangelism because all sorts of sexual sin were common among the Gentiles. (A main reason why the Jews called the Gentiles "dogs"--because they had no awareness of how wrong certain sexual acts were.) It has been said that venereal disease was so common among women in Roman society (even among high born women) that one of the most popular pursuits of what passed for "medical research" among them, was how to cure it. There were all sorts of bizarre "cures" promoted in that day.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
You always express yourself well, but now you caused me to be curious about you are referring too.
Thank you! Aaaand, give me a little time to consider my answers. My reticence is due to love, respect and appreciation for the "powers that be" here at RF. I wouldn't care to shoulder the responsibility nor the burden of administering a site like this with the plethora of strong personalities, positions and opinions we express. I'd rather try and herd cats through a Nepeta cataria patch.


However, I'll give a little insight, though and will try to add details later...or maybe not.

- Communications are a big issue, or the inability.

- Some current restrictions/limitations are an issue.

The two above points work together to strangle community/fellowship and that's becoming an issue for me. I can't speak for anyone else.

Two other related thoughts immediately come to mind; 1- Still water stagnates, moving water refreshes and cleanses. And, 2- There's only one Holy Spirit, there isn't a need for another.

I sure hope that's not cryptic or discouraging to anyone. I love this place, the people, the conversations and the possibilities for growth, "heavenward". However, in my short residence here, the atmosphere has changed recently and not for the better.

Hehe, it's probably me :shrug
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Thank you! Aaaand, give me a little time to consider my answers. My reticence is due to love, respect and appreciation for the "powers that be" here at RF. I wouldn't care to shoulder the responsibility nor the burden of administering a site like this with the plethora of strong personalities, positions and opinions we express. I'd rather try and herd cats through a Nepeta cataria patch.


However, I'll give a little insight, though and will try to add details later...or maybe not.

- Communications are a big issue, or the inability.

- Some current restrictions/limitations are an issue.

The two above points work together to strangle community/fellowship and that's becoming an issue for me. I can't speak for anyone else.

Two other related thoughts immediately come to mind; 1- Still water stagnates, moving water refreshes and cleanses. And, 2- There's only one Holy Spirit, there isn't a need for another.

I sure hope that's not cryptic or discouraging to anyone. I love this place, the people, the conversations and the possibilities for growth, "heavenward". However, in my short residence here, the atmosphere has changed recently and not for the better.

Hehe, it's probably me :shrug
And I thought it was me….o_O:biggrin

I agree that admin has its hands full in keeping the forum on point, and that point should always be on Him, and helping others meet Him. We tend to get sidetracked on many other issues.
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
And I thought it was me….o_O:biggrin

I agree that admin has its hands full in keeping the forum on point, and that point should always be on Him, and helping others meet Him. We tend to get sidetracked on many other issues.
Agree, and I think our witness here has suffered for it, in terms of any unbelieving, or maybe even believing lurkers, as well as ourselves. There is a kind of addiction I guess, to sensationalist media that tickles our ears. I know I was getting consumed by it. Ultimately the results of recent political circumstances have driven me back into the Word, where I should have been all along, so net good. I'm back on the Bible Bus with Dr McGee daily, and going through Dr. Woods Kingdom, Daniel, Revelation and Genesis. Just started back into Matthew with TTB, and went through Habbakuk, which his questions fit very well with how I was/am feeling about the political. It's all in God's hands.

So praise God! Onwards.
 
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