The little horn in Dan. 7

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Let me clarify my question. Would the dreadful fourth beast be the Roman Empire, or the endtimes revived Roman Empire? If it is the original empire, and we think of the beast as coming on the scene at the beginning of the tribulation when he signs the covenant, then the ten horns would be seen prior to that? Or if it is speaking of the final beast kingdom, does that endtimes revived Roman Empire appear before the ten horns and the beast person?
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
Let me clarify my question. Would the dreadful fourth beast be the Roman Empire, or the endtimes revived Roman Empire? If it is the original empire, and we think of the beast as coming on the scene at the beginning of the tribulation when he signs the covenant, then the ten horns would be seen prior to that? Or if it is speaking of the final beast kingdom, does that endtimes revived Roman Empire appear before the ten horns and the beast person?

One thought is he does have iron teeth. And on Neb's image there is iron mixed with clay. So I think it is the endtimes revived Roman empire.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Irenaeus in Against Heresies was talking about the little horn who he identifies as the Antichrist. You might find his thoughts useful. He was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Revelator.

I typed these quotes out from a book The Ancient Church Fathers by Ken Johnson which is good to quickly find the juicy bits when navigating the Early Church Fathers.

Against Heresies 5.26
"the Roman Empire will first be divided and then be dissolved. Ten kings will arise from what used to be the Roman Empire. The Antichrist slays three of the kings and is then the 8th king among them. The kings will destroy Babylon, then give the Babylonian kingdom to the Beast and put the church to flight. (Irenaeus was meaning the believers of the Trib-- see 5.29 below) After that, the kings will be destroyed by the coming of the Lord. Daniels horns are the same as the ten toes. The clay and iron mixture of the ten toes represents the fact that some kings will be active and strong, while others will be weak and ineffective. It also means the kings will not agree with each other."

Against Heresies 5.29 "When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be."

Against Heresies 5.30 a little further down in Irenaeus's book, he says this little nugget inside a larger discussion on the 666 "The fourth kingdom seen by Daniel is Rome."

HTH
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Going further with those texts in Daniel 7:7-8 Dan7:19-20 and 24 looking up the Strongs words on eSword it DOES suggest a timing in all this.

7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

Margery here, I looked and there before him is the fourth beast which Daniel describes as it takes time to crush devour and trample. A pause for a further description to elaborate including the fact it was different (somehow) from the former beasts and it has 10 horns. For now, then the word "while" implies time. then suddenly the 10 change with a little one coming up in the midst-- and 3 of the original horns are uprooted.

So I'd say yes that passage says exactly that. And that pause to elaborate further emphasizes the difference and the horns.
Let me clarify my question. Would the dreadful fourth beast be the Roman Empire, or the endtimes revived Roman Empire? If it is the original empire, and we think of the beast as coming on the scene at the beginning of the tribulation when he signs the covenant, then the ten horns would be seen prior to that? Or if it is speaking of the final beast kingdom, does that endtimes revived Roman Empire appear before the ten horns and the beast person?

The dreadful beast is both the way I see it. Then, the Empire. Soon to come, the revived version. It should involve 10 kings which might mean 10 jurisdictions under one world govt or 10 actual kingdoms from the ancient areas of the Roman Empire. Shortly after that (after we leave) the AC rises up in the midst and kills off 3, replacing them, becoming the 8th among them.

Hippolytus says the 3 kings are Egypt, Libya and Ethiopia. But I'm not sure how Hippolytus came to that conclusion.

One of the Early Church Fathers, and I'm pretty sure it was Irenaeus in Against Heresies again, was pretty decisive that the 10 kings would not arise till just before the AC arises. First them, then the AC. He actually said something to the effect of don't even bother guessing at the 666 till the 10 kings arise-- to the church of his day. He was an early adopter of the "quit pinning the tail on the AC" theme and I guess there was a lot of speculation going on, which he wanted to settle. Maybe he knew something from chatting with Polycarp who was taught by John. Maybe he was just tired of the pin the tail on the AC game going on in the churches under his care. He was pretty big on the Rapture BEFORE the AC but I think he was saying we MIGHT be around to see the 10 kings arise. He wasn't the Bible, he was a falliable human, but he was closer to John and was a great Bible teacher who taught end times in those very early days after the Apostles died.

THEN

19 “Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

AGAIN I think you are right, there is a definite progression of events. First the 10 kings/horns, then another one, which destroys 3 of the original 10.

AND
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.

Finally the angel interpreting for Daniel, makes it crystal clear. 10 kings arise out of that fourth kingdom Rome, and AFTER THEM (which says they come first, then the AC) another who is different and will subdue 3 of the kings.

By the repetition, I think it's an important point that God is making thru Daniel-- repeating the sequence over and over.

So yes

I think you are right. We might be around to see the 10 arise. But gone by the time the AC appears.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Going further with those texts in Daniel 7:7-8 Dan7:19-20 and 24 looking up the Strongs words on eSword it DOES suggest a timing in all this.

7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

Margery here, I looked and there before him is the fourth beast which Daniel describes as it takes time to crush devour and trample. A pause for a further description to elaborate including the fact it was different (somehow) from the former beasts and it has 10 horns. For now, then the word "while" implies time. then suddenly the 10 change with a little one coming up in the midst-- and 3 of the original horns are uprooted.

So I'd say yes that passage says exactly that. And that pause to elaborate further emphasizes the difference and the horns.


The dreadful beast is both the way I see it. Then, the Empire. Soon to come, the revived version. It should involve 10 kings which might mean 10 jurisdictions under one world govt or 10 actual kingdoms from the ancient areas of the Roman Empire. Shortly after that (after we leave) the AC rises up in the midst and kills off 3, replacing them, becoming the 8th among them.

Hippolytus says the 3 kings are Egypt, Libya and Ethiopia. But I'm not sure how Hippolytus came to that conclusion.

One of the Early Church Fathers, and I'm pretty sure it was Irenaeus in Against Heresies again, was pretty decisive that the 10 kings would not arise till just before the AC arises. First them, then the AC. He actually said something to the effect of don't even bother guessing at the 666 till the 10 kings arise-- to the church of his day. He was an early adopter of the "quit pinning the tail on the AC" theme and I guess there was a lot of speculation going on, which he wanted to settle. Maybe he knew something from chatting with Polycarp who was taught by John. Maybe he was just tired of the pin the tail on the AC game going on in the churches under his care. He was pretty big on the Rapture BEFORE the AC but I think he was saying we MIGHT be around to see the 10 kings arise. He wasn't the Bible, he was a falliable human, but he was closer to John and was a great Bible teacher who taught end times in those very early days after the Apostles died.

THEN

19 “Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

AGAIN I think you are right, there is a definite progression of events. First the 10 kings/horns, then another one, which destroys 3 of the original 10.

AND
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.

Finally the angel interpreting for Daniel, makes it crystal clear. 10 kings arise out of that fourth kingdom Rome, and AFTER THEM (which says they come first, then the AC) another who is different and will subdue 3 of the kings.

By the repetition, I think it's an important point that God is making thru Daniel-- repeating the sequence over and over.

So yes

I think you are right. We might be around to see the 10 arise. But gone by the time the AC appears.
Thank you for your effort, Margery! That helped. I think somehow I had got it in my head that the AC came first, then he brought about the revived RE and then the 10 kings came along. I just needed a little confirmation that I was reading this right.

:hug
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
You are so welcome Jan! You are completely accurate in your reading. It's how it reads to me too, and I used the Strong's thingy inside eSword to go thru it word by word. It's important if God put it in there 3 times and included a clear explanation.

Looking at how it's worded I don't think it means 10 global zones like I'd been thinking might happen. this passage, that angel says very specifically in v 24 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise

so it HAS to be from the ancient Roman Empire and the 10 come from THAT. Which would of course include the Eastern as well as the Western halves. And those early church fathers were also taking a giant leap of faith by announcing that Rome would SPLIT before it actually did. They were right.

Hm, very enjoyable study you seem to be doing Jan, share bits anytime. That got me going on the zones versus kings.
 

Rocky Rivera

Well-Known Member
Since it was said in the Scriptures that John the Baptist would be filled with the Holy Ghost, even while Elizabeth was pregnant with him -- could it be possible that The Antichrist would be possessed of the Devil while his mother is pregnant with him?
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
Since it was said in the Scriptures that John the Baptist would be filled with the Holy Ghost, even while Elizabeth was pregnant with him -- could it be possible that The Antichrist would be possessed of the Devil while his mother is pregnant with him?

I've heard that the AntiChrist becomes possesses with Satan after he suffers a deadly wound and is resurrected. I don't really know though.
 

InsuranceGuy

Well-Known Member
I am working my way through Daniel, reworking my study notes, and am on the little horn of Dan. 7. Looking at verses 7-8 and 19-20 and 24, is it saying that the dreadful fourth kingdom appears, THEN the ten horns, THEN the little horn?

Andy Woods series on the book of the Revelation delves into this. I do not recall his actual wording, but the series itself helps greatly with Daniel, although it is like 75 YouTube videos long. Worth every minute though.
 

Rocky Rivera

Well-Known Member
I've heard that the AntiChrist becomes possesses with Satan after he suffers a deadly wound and is resurrected. I don't really know though.
I have a problem with that resurrection bit because only God has the ability to reach beyond the veil of death and reunite a human being's body and soul, especially if that soul deserves an eternity in Hell. I can't imagine the Antichrist getting such a reprieve. If a dead body is animated by Satan after the soul has departed its tent, I suppose you could make a case for Satan counterfeiting the resurrection. However, we read in Revelation 19:20, " Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. "

Remember that Satan doesn't get thrown into the Lake of Fire until he's had his turn at the Great White Throne judgement, which comes after the conclusion of the Millenial period. Therefore, if the beast (Antichrist) was captured, then he was merely possessed and empowered by the Devil, but not resurrected. There may be an attempt at assassination which gravely wounds him, but he does not die. The deadly wound is healed, but not by God. More than likely, the Antichrist enters into another phase of his contract with Satan where he receives temporary healing for Satan's use of his physical body. It would appear that the Devil has some limited knowledge of human physiology and can -- when allowed to do so -- effect cures with ulterior motives.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Hm, very enjoyable study you seem to be doing Jan, share bits anytime. That got me going on the zones versus kings.
OK, I will take you up on that!

In chapter 1, I realized some things that I had missed in earlier explorations of Daniel. I first noticed some key words in verse 2: "What words, at the beginning and end of 2, set out the conflict and theme of this book? The Lord, his gods. The rest of this book addresses and answers the question raised here—who is the true God, and who has power? Could we say this is one of the themes of the Bible?"

Then the word "wisdom" jumped out at me in 4, 17 and 20 and the idea of two kinds of wisdom being contrasted in this chapter and this book, so I developed that idea a bit. Here are my notes on the last part of Dan. 1. (I format my notes as questions as much as possible because I prefer that teaching style to "telling." I try to encourage the practice of asking yourself questions as you read.)

Dan. 1:17-21
Didn't 1:4 already say that they possessed these qualities? We all have certain qualities; might God enhance those qualities even more for His purposes? What W word do we see here twice, and in 20, mentioned first?

In 20 we are introduced to what group of people important in this book? They are described in various ways--how in 2:2? 2:4? 2:10? After that this group is called what in 2:12,14,18,24,27,48? We meet them again in chapters 4 and 5 in two other incidents. Don't wise men sound like very smart and studious men, seen here as counselors to the king? But what kind of wisdom is it referring to? Occult. What is another W word for this type of person--a word related to "wise"? A wizard is a male witch.

In the story of Jesus, what do some translations call them? Magi. A magus, singular, was a member of an ancient Persian clan specializing in occult activities, followers of Zoroaster. Pronounced "may-jus" and "may-jiy." The magi in Mat. 2 were not kings, as is often said but not in the Bible, but were more likely occult priests. From this term comes what common word today, that all kids are interested in? magic.

In Dan. 2 these men are sometimes just referred to as Chaldeans--an early southern Mesopotamian people, conquered by the Babylonians. Chaldeans were noted for: astronomy, astrology, star-worship, interpreting of omens, horoscopes, masters of reading and writing, obscure knowledge, incantations, sorcery, witchcraft, and the magical arts. So now we look back at 1:4 and see that Daniel and friends were not merely being assimilated into Babylonian culture and government, but, more specifically, were being trained as what?

King Balak of Moab summoned Balaam, a well-known diviner, all the way from Mesopotamia to curse Israel when they camped by the Jordan, preparing to enter the land of Canaan. Now we have more insight into the story of Balaam. He was apparently one of the Chaldeans. He had occult wisdom and power, Num. 22:6 and 24:1, but he learns that who has the true power? Yet he does not come to believe in the true God. King Balak offers to pay him handsomely to say what Balak wants him to say, but Balaam finds that he can only say what God gives him to say, and he keeps telling this to Balak. As in Daniel, and as in Pharaoh's court in Exodus, we see what contrasted? Surprisingly, Balaam also gives some amazing prophecies about the coming Messiah, 24:15-19, which later magi will study and look for His star. Knowing of Daniel, the God of Israel, and the One with the scepter who is coming who "shall have dominion," these wise men seek to worship the true God; perhaps they represented a group of the magi that had become followers of Daniel's God? We also see how God uses Balaam's free will in disobeying God and going to Balak, to accomplish God's sovereign will! Which takes us to Matthew and illustrates this prayer--"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

What other Bible character was originally a Chaldean, Gen. 11:27-31? This gives us some clues about his religious background. So God called the one whose line would become Israel out of the land that would later become Babylon, to a land that He promised to give to that nation. After the captivity, in Daniel's day, the faithful of Israel would again leave Babylon and return to the land God promised them. Babylon often represents man's corrupt godless kingdom, beginning at what incident? Babel, and culminating in Revelation; what does God say in Rev. 18:1-4? Babylon is another sub-theme of the Bible.

So now in the introduction to Daniel's story, we are given two contrasting kinds of wisdom. Does the Bible have much to say about wisdom? YES! We might even say that wisdom is one of many sub-themes of the Bible. J. Vernon McGee often points out that first mentions in the Bible are important, and often set a precedent for understanding and interpreting. Where is the first mention of wisdom? Gen. 3:1-7. What did Eve desire--just to be extra smart? Since God had created Adam and Eve perfect, wasn't she already wise? But when she was presented with the other kind of wisdom, she desired it--and who had what she wanted? Which kind of wisdom did he have? What was the end result of that wisdom, 7? So in the introduction to the big story of the Bible, we are given the same set-up we see in Daniel; then in the rest of the story, we see how it plays out.

Where do we read about Satan's wisdom? Eze. 28 starts out addressed to who? The prince of Tyre, which was the center of trade at that time; it often was used to represent commercialism, greed--kind of like speaking of Wall Street. Then in the middle of the chapter, 11, it changes to speaking of who? The king of Tyre, and looking at the next few verses, who IS that? Satan. So the prince of Tyre was either symbolic of Satan or empowered by him. How is he described in 3, 4, 5, 7? What was Satan like in the beginning, before he sinned, 12? What happened after he fell, 17? So are these the two kinds of wisdom contrasted for us?

The next mention is Gen. 41:8,33,39, again contrasting the two kinds of wisdom for us. Where do we find the next wise men? Exodus--Pharaoh, Moses, and the plagues. What do we know about those wise men? They had occult power--like God's power? Who was the wisest man in the Bible? Which kind of wisdom did he have? He wrote much about wisdom, in which books? Proverbs, Ecclesiastes.

What is the first mention in the New Testament? The wise man did what? What does that mean? What about young Jesus, Luke 2:40,52? Acts 6:3,10, who gives wisdom? In I Cor. 1-2, Paul contrasts two kinds of wisdom, speaking here not of the occult but of wisdom apart from God. James 3 contrasts two kinds of wisdom, and what does he tell us in 1:5?

These four young men stood out far above Nebuchadnezzar’s own people. Do you think that made them popular? What might it cause instead? resentment, even hatred? We shall see. Does living for God make you popular? 21 tells us that 19-21 are an overview of the entire time they were there. The author (Daniel) has given us the characters, setting and the background, and set up the theme and the conflict; now the plot begins to unfold. As we often see in the Old Testament style of writing, the big picture which we are first given will be followed by a more detailed account of some events during that time period. 20 sets us up to understand the following accounts. 2 and 7 point us to what God was doing in the lives of the Babylonian leaders they served. God was giving these pagan leaders the opportunity to ask and answer what question? So was God's plan just about Israel? How should knowing this affect our thinking?

What a unique opportunity God had given them to be an influence of godliness as they serve in secular positions of power in this pagan kingdom. Will they, like many Christians we see in the news, eventually give in to the temptation to water down their beliefs in order to protect their positions or their lives? We will find out in the next few chapters. Does God only use intelligent, wise, and rich people, like Daniel, Job, Solomon, Moses, Abraham? Do we also read about poor, average, uneducated nobodies? How should knowing this affect our thinking? No matter who we are, God is working in us and through us, to increase our own faith and to influence others.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
King Balak of Moab summoned Balaam, a well-known diviner, all the way from Mesopotamia to curse Israel when they camped by the Jordan, preparing to enter the land of Canaan. Now we have more insight into the story of Balaam. He was apparently one of the Chaldeans.
Wow, Jan, that is fascinating! I had no idea, and he is such an important character -- being referenced thru the whole Bible. An archetype of the Babylonian religious priests. In contrast with Daniel.

These four young men stood out far above Nebuchadnezzar’s own people. Do you think that made them popular? What might it cause instead? resentment, even hatred? We shall see. Does living for God make you popular? 21 tells us that 19-21 are an overview of the entire time they were there. The author (Daniel) has given us the characters, setting and the background, and set up the theme and the conflict; now the plot begins to unfold. As we often see in the Old Testament style of writing, the big picture which we are first given will be followed by a more detailed account of some events during that time period. 20 sets us up to understand the following accounts. 2 and 7 point us to what God was doing in the lives of the Babylonian leaders they served. God was giving these pagan leaders the opportunity to ask and answer what question? So was God's plan just about Israel? How should knowing this affect our thinking?
I like how you are considering the overall theme, and how it applies today. My granny (mum's mum) used to sing Dare to be a Daniel, Dare to stand Alone, Dare to have a purpose firm, and Dare to make it known.

We really are called especially in the darkening culture around us to follow Christ, in vivid contrast to the "gods" of today.

AMEN Jan, and thank you. Keep sharing as you work thru the book. love it!
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Wow, Jan, that is fascinating! I had no idea, and he is such an important character -- being referenced thru the whole Bible. An archetype of the Babylonian religious priests. In contrast with Daniel.


I like how you are considering the overall theme, and how it applies today. My granny (mum's mum) used to sing Dare to be a Daniel, Dare to stand Alone, Dare to have a purpose firm, and Dare to make it known.

We really are called especially in the darkening culture around us to follow Christ, in vivid contrast to the "gods" of today.

AMEN Jan, and thank you. Keep sharing as you work thru the book. love it!
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it! I learned that song when I was kid, haven't thought of it in years, it truly does sum him up and specially fit today's world.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
OK, my two Bible study groups finished Daniel and are now in Revelation. In Rev. 17, comparing to Dan. 7, I am having another thought about the ten horns and the three and the beast/AC.

In Dan. 7 it sounds like the beast kingdom begins, then the ten kings come on the scene, then the little horn comes on the scene, then he subdues three, pretty much at the beginning of the seven years.

In Rev. 17:16, there are still ten horns. I know commentators differ over what is happening here, but it seems that this is happening either at the midpoint or the end--I believe the midpoint. Either way, it seems clear that there are still ten horns at this point, so the three apparently are not subdued until after this event!
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
One thought is he does have iron teeth. And on Neb's image there is iron mixed with clay. So I think it is the endtimes revived Roman empire.
Yes--the metals mentioned are, to me, a symbol of our modern technological age--iron and bronze are what were utilitarian metals in ancient times. The other three beasts mentioned in Daniel 7 are all living creatures. But, the fourth beast seems to be part living and part machine. Isn't that what the globalists tout as "transhumanism" the melding of humans with machine parts?
 
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