The End Of Age Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 question

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
I have come to understand that The particular Olivet Discourse given by Jesus to His Disciples is all in reference to the Second Coming. I'm confused here and need help to understand. If this is all in reference to the Second Coming, which occurs at the end of the Tribulation, then why for as long as I can remember have many Believers, refered to these passages and point to those signs Jesus gave to point to being close to the Rapture? Those signs were not also for the Church? I Have heard many Believers address many events in our time as part of the "birth pains" and thus we are nearing Jesus coming for the Church. I understand that the Rapture in itself is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse but even so, do not these prophecies in these Gospels I mention in my question apply also to the Church? I am confused about this. Is it the understanding that when Jesus spoke of the Increase in Earthquakes, the Wars and rumor of wars, the pestilences and so on are not signs that the Rapture is near?
 
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Steve53

Well-Known Member
I have come to understand that The particular Olivet Discourse given by Jesus to His Disciples is all in reference to the Second Coming. I'm confused here and need help to understand. If this is all in reference to the Second Coming, which occurs at the end of the Tribulation, then why for as long as I can remember have many Believers, refered to these passages and point to those signs Jesus gave to point to being close to the Rapture? Those signs were not also for the Church? I Have heard many Believers address many events in our time as part of the "birth pains" and thus we are nearing Jesus coming for the Church. I understand that the Rapture in itself is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse but even so, do not these prophecies in these Gospels I mention in my question apply also to the Church? I am confused about this. Is it the understanding that when Jesus spoke of the Increase in Earthquakes, the Wars and rumor of wars, the pestilences and so on are not signs that the Rapture is near? I'm really confused here.
Yes, absolutely the Olivet Discourse can be studied by the Church and the Church can rightly gain many insights as to the relative nearness of the rapture based on a general convergence of the signs Christ mentioned.

And remember also, that during Daniel's 70th week, many people will be turning to the Scriptures for guidance as the events unfold. The roadmap laid out for the end times, I'm sure will be a great source of comfort for those who were left behind. It won't make things easier for them, but they can still turn to Christ during that time.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Yes, absolutely the Olivet Discourse can be studied by the Church and the Church can rightly gain many insights as to the relative nearness of the rapture based on a general convergence of the signs Christ mentioned.

And remember also, that during Daniel's 70th week, many people will be turning to the Scriptures for guidance as the events unfold. The roadmap laid out for the end times, I'm sure will be a great source of comfort for those who were left behind. It won't make things easier for them, but they can still turn to Christ during that time.
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usoutpost31

Well-Known Member
I have come to understand that The particular Olivet Discourse given by Jesus to His Disciples is all in reference to the Second Coming. I'm confused here and need help to understand. If this is all in reference to the Second Coming, which occurs at the end of the Tribulation, then why for as long as I can remember have many Believers, refered to these passages and point to those signs Jesus gave to point to being close to the Rapture? Those signs were not also for the Church? I Have heard many Believers address many events in our time as part of the "birth pains" and thus we are nearing Jesus coming for the Church. I understand that the Rapture in itself is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse but even so, do not these prophecies in these Gospels I mention in my question apply also to the Church? I am confused about this. Is it the understanding that when Jesus spoke of the Increase in Earthquakes, the Wars and rumor of wars, the pestilences and so on are not signs that the Rapture is near?

I too have pondered this. Some of the prophecy teachers I've heard from in the last few years have made a pretty strong case the events of Mathew 24 are Tribulation hour only.

As an example they point out that the false Christs and messiahs that Jesus warned about Matt 24:23-26 are not likely to trip up believers of the Church Age, those of us who have read the Gospels and also know what to expect when he returns. But after the Rapture, when a physical return of Jesus is to be expected, new believers or the Jews who still are waiting for the Messiah's first coming, would be suspectible to such deception.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Consider that --chapters and verses being unknown in the original manuscripts-- that what we know as Matthew 24 (and parallel passages in Mark and Luke) may contain references to both the time of the Rapture and the time of Christ's Second Coming.

Also, in Scripture prophecies are often compressed into one seeming event or time. Look at Isaiah 61:1-2, which is likely the greatest example of this. From the start of verse one to halfway through verse two it prophesied Christ's role at His first coming; but halfway through verse two it switches to His role at His second coming. Just something to consider as you study Matthew 24.
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
Consider that --chapters and verses being unknown in the original manuscripts-- that what we know as Matthew 24 (and parallel passages in Mark and Luke) may contain references to both the time of the Rapture and the time of Christ's Second Coming.

Also, in Scripture prophecies are often compressed into one seeming event or time. Look at Isaiah 61:1-2, which is likely the greatest example of this. From the start of verse one to halfway through verse two it prophesied Christ's role at His first coming; but halfway through verse two it switches to His role at His second coming. Just something to consider as you study Matthew 24.

In cases where prophecy has two different events in mind separated by time, does it always go from earlier event to later, EG first coming to second coming? Or could it be "out of order"?

Something like Matt. 24 is already talking about the tribulation before it gets to the part about the days of Noah, for example.
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Consider that --chapters and verses being unknown in the original manuscripts-- that what we know as Matthew 24 (and parallel passages in Mark and Luke) may contain references to both the time of the Rapture and the time of Christ's Second Coming.

Also, in Scripture prophecies are often compressed into one seeming event or time. Look at Isaiah 61:1-2, which is likely the greatest example of this. From the start of verse one to halfway through verse two it prophesied Christ's role at His first coming; but halfway through verse two it switches to His role at His second coming. Just something to consider as you study Matthew 24.
Arent Luke 21 and Mark 13 other versions of Matthew 24?
 

Steve53

Well-Known Member
Consider that --chapters and verses being unknown in the original manuscripts-- that what we know as Matthew 24 (and parallel passages in Mark and Luke) may contain references to both the time of the Rapture and the time of Christ's Second Coming.

Consider this - If there were no other references to the rapture in the Scriptures, could a discerning reader perceive the rapture in Matt?

The Disciples probably knew about Enoch and Elijah, and Isaiah too, but they had no idea at all about a coming Church. Anything having to do with a "catching up" of a future Church at the very least would have bewildered them.

Contextually it makes no sense to include the rapture anywhere in the Olivet Discourse.

IMHO, the most that could be argued is that a "type" of rapture involving the sheep and goat judgment is clearly in view, but without knowledge aforethought, no one could see the rapture in those verses.

Remember Paul said that it was he that was revealing a mystery....
 

Steve53

Well-Known Member
Arent Luke 21 and Mark 13 other versions of Matthew 24?
https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-olivet-discourse/
Q
Many scholars teach that the Olivet Discourse was written for the Church, but you say the focus is on Israel. If you’re right why does the Olivet Discourse even appear in Mark and Luke when these two Gospels are mainly Gentile in their focus? Please explain.

A
This is a very important issue. 2 days before the cross 4 disciples came to Jesus with 3 questions. They were prompted by one of the disciples commenting on the beauty of the Temple and Jesus predicting its destruction.
The questions were:
1. When will this happen (the Temple’s destruction)?
2. What will be the signs of your (2nd) coming?
3. What will be the signs of the end of the age?
Their mindset in asking these questions is critical to our understanding. While the Jews were in Babylon during the 70 year captivity, the angel Gabriel had told Daniel that Israel would be given 490 years from the date they received authorization to rebuild Jerusalem to wrap everything up. (Daniel 9:24-27) 483 of those years had past. The Temple had been under construction for nearly 40 years and wasn’t finished yet. They were thinking they were nearing the end of the age and now Jesus tells them that everything will be torn down. There had never been any talk of a Church Age or a Rapture or of the disciples evangelizing the world. We know about all these things from hindsight, but they were probably in a state of great distress when they came to Him.
The answer to their first question is contained only in Luke 21:12-24. There you can read the Lord’s prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The answers to questions 2-3 are contained in all three accounts of the event. Keep in mind that when the disciples asked these questions they thought they were only 7 years away from the End. This is confirmed by the question they asked on the Mount of Olives after the resurrection. “Lord, are you now going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6)
As I noted in my study on the Olivet Discourse Matthew’s account is especially Jewish, warning people in Judea, invoking Jewish Sabbath Laws, and mentioning the Abomination of Desolation, an event in Jewish History. There’s no mention of the Church anywhere in any of it, because at this point in time there was no Church. Later, Paul would disclose that the Church would not be present during this time.
As for why the Olivet Discourse even appears in Mark and Luke when these two Gospels are mainly Gentile in their focus, there will be many on Earth who will miss the Rapture, perhaps coming to faith because of it. Matthew, Mark and Luke all write to them, Jew and Gentile, giving them the signs of His coming and of the End of the Age to help them persevere through mankind’s darkest Hour. Remember, just because the Olivet Discourse isn’t written to the Church doesn’t mean it isn’t for gentiles.
 
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