The Days of Reckoning

Lastcall

Well-Known Member
Whichever way you look at it, the world (Global in scope) for the most part, is unbelieving, and thus, unconcerned with spiritual things. Having endured 21 judgments of God, I too cannot envision this to be the case at the end of the tribulation period, but respect other's positions.
Consider the below response of those who survived the Seal and Trumpet Judgements, in which approx 1/2 of those left behind were killed. In the midst of enduring trials, they still celebrate the death of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Its human nature to relish in survival, especially after going through a severe trial. Troops returning from a long tour in combat often want to celebrate.

Those that make it through all 21 judgements, will be some of the same ones who shook their fist at God during the most severest of judgements. When the judgements finally stop, those still alive IMO will feel empowered like never before. After all, they survived such a period that killed the majority of people on earth. Im quite confident they will celebrate like never before, and try to return to life as it was. However, as we know, this wont last long before He grabs ahold of them for the Sheep and goat judgement.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Luke 26-29
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

What are these two Old Testament stories about and what do they have in common with the appearance of Christ? The point is not how normal life was or wasn't, but how the evil godless population ignored warnings of coming judgment, continuing on with their lives unconcerned about what God is about to do.
 

lightofmylife

Blessed Hope-Prepare To Fly!
Luke 26-29
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

What are these two Old Testament stories about and what do they have in common with the appearance of Christ? The point is not how normal life was or wasn't, but how the evil godless population ignored warnings of coming judgment, continuing on with their lives unconcerned about what God is about to do.
The people who don't believe in God are just living for the here and now. A lot of them believe you only go around once not believing there is an eternal life in a heaven for believers, and a hell for those who didn't accept :fish for their salvation. It is the eternal life that really matters because this life is only temporary. Noah tried to warn the people back in his time, and some will listen now and turn to God others will not. :praying for the lost to be saved before it is too late.
 

Jojo4124

Well-Known Member
To put it another way....we should ask, should the men of Sodom, or the people in Noah's day, have been aware that judgment was coming, or should they have been unaware? Is it understandable that they are eating and drinking, building and planting, marrying and giving in marriage? Is it because there were no signs that judgment was coming?

Because Jesus gave us a list of signs to watch for. Matthew 24:4-30. Can we describe these things, that Jesus listed, as "normal"? Almost half of Matt 24 and 25 consists of warnings to watch for his coming. The signs must be there, and what Jesus describes in the first half of Matthew 24 cannot be considered as normal. The times of Noah and Lot are examples of people who "knew not", until the day of judgement came. Not because it was impossible to know, not because they could not know - Noah knew. But because they were not righteous people, their concerns were for temporary things. The preaching during the Tribulation is ignored, and they are deceived by the Antichrist and believe what he says, over what the people sent by God, say.
I think Noah told them and they laughed at him. They all saw the ark being built...but refused to repent.

Like the rich man (who ignored Lazarus) in hell...wanted his brothers to be warned of hell. He was told that his brothers had the prophets' warnings. There will be no excuse...IMHO
 

Jojo4124

Well-Known Member
Consider the below response of those who survived the Seal and Trumpet Judgements, in which approx 1/2 of those left behind were killed. In the midst of enduring trials, they still celebrate the death of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Its human nature to relish in survival, especially after going through a severe trial. Troops returning from a long tour in combat often want to celebrate.

Those that make it through all 21 judgements, will be some of the same ones who shook their fist at God during the most severest of judgements. When the judgements finally stop, those still alive IMO will feel empowered like never before. After all, they survived such a period that killed the majority of people on earth. Im quite confident they will celebrate like never before, and try to return to life as it was. However, as we know, this wont last long before He grabs ahold of them for the Sheep and goat judgement.
After the two witnesses are killed, ppl will send gifts to eachother...so sad!!
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Greetings Andy,
I’m new here, so I probably shouldn’t disagree with anyone for at least a month so people can get to know me better and know that I’m never out to win debates, but merely a seed sower.

i have studied Bible prophecy for over 30 years and have read the Olivet Discourse 1000 times and have read everyone who is somebody’s commentaries and interpretations. I have pondered all of their words because I respect them and I know God has given some the gift of teaching.

I have wrestled with the Olivet Discourse interpretation for many years and have gone back and forth until finally I decided to throw my hat in the one ring….the ring that says Jesus did teach about the rapture in Revelation when talking to the churches, Jesus did teach about the rapture in the Upper Room Discourse in John 14:1-5, so why can’t Jesus also be teaching about the rapture in the OD, Matthew 24-25? It seems to me Luke’s Olivet Discourse in both Chapters 17 and 21 reaffirm to me at least that Jesus is talking about the rapture as well as his second coming. The passages Pete cited regarding the Days of Noah and Lot only make sense to me if one is talking about the rapture. I don’t see how things can be “normal” if you interpret this to be just before Christ returns and the whole world has just experience the wrath of the seals, trumpets, and bowls.

I could go on because I truly have so many notes I have made over the years on this topic, but like I said, I really need to keep a more low profile, especially for now. And again, I’m not looking for you or anyone to align themselves with me on this topic…that means nothing to me. All I’ve done is share my research and conclusions I have drawn though my studies….which doesn’t mean they are right. I could be wrong, which won’t be the first time nor the last time. I am not a prophet and I most certainly am flawed…. just like everyone else. Ask my wife if you need confirmation on the latter. Lol

Anyhow, I hope I have not offended anyone by being so bold. I also hope I haven’t violated a rule here….let me know if I have….I will repent if I did. Cheers.

BB

”All praise, glory, and honor, to the one who sits on the throne, and to the lamb of God, forever and ever.”
I have to agree with you with some of your points. While the rapture was not a specific teaching by Jesus, as you point out that in John 14:1-4 it reads,
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.” Jesus didn't tell his disciples he would return to rapture them to take them to be where he is, but it's clear that's what he was referring to. I do believe his disciples likely didn't fully comprehend what he was talking about because the rapture was still a mystery. My take on the teaching of the rapture is that the rapture or rather the concept of the rapture was in conversation during Jesus time with his disciples because when Jesus revealed the meaning of the mystery to Paul, the fact that it was a mystery would indicate it had to have been in conversation for it to be a mystery. It would mean it wasn't a new teaching but that it was unclear until the meaning was revealed. I also think that while the vast portion of the Olivet Discourse was pertaining to the time of the tribulation I think the birth pangs are what gives the church the view that were in the season. The first part of Jesus reply to the three part question from his disciples he is describing a series of signs that would converge into one sign which is consistent with other disciples question "what will be the sign" they used the singular "sign" and this points to a convergence of the multiple events he mentioned, but after speaking of this he says in Matthew 24:6
see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
and then in verse 8
"All these are the beginning of birth pains."
Because he says not to be alarmed and they must happen he's saying it's not the end. And says they are "beginnings" of birth pains. It isn't unreasonable to think these events would be taking place while the church is still here. Some eschatology teachers use the term "fore shadowing of the tribulation" and I can see how it makes sense. While there are differing in opinion in the timing of the birth pains I think there's agreement that we are in the season, but how do we know that? How do we know Christmas is coming? Before Christmas day people put up decorations and stores start having Christmas merchandise and you may hear Christmas music playing. Not yet Christmas but there are signs it's near. I think by knowing the season is here for Jesus to come for his bride, if not for those signs Jesus gave at the Olivet Discourse we couldn't know that he is near.

"When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Luke 21:28
 

madcat

Well-Known Member
After the two witnesses are killed, ppl will send gifts to eachother...so sad!!
Sadly, the same can be said of our world today. Christians/conservatives are prime targets for persecution around the world, and gaining strength here in the US. Example is the vitriolic “protests” against anti-abortion supporters, and all the stupidity transgender garbage.
 

OneDayNearer

Forgiven Much
I just went and bought a stand-alone DVD player, in case the internet is banned, and especially all Christian sites/references.

oh my gosh, I did the exact same thing! Very recently purchased a DVD player, and also had a CD player installed in my car so my Bible on CDs can be played after anything Christian gets banned

The salespeople thought I was crazy buying things that are considered so "archaic" but I know what God is telling me to do, to help those left behind...
 

alisani

Well-Known Member
oh my gosh, I did the exact same thing! Very recently purchased a DVD player, and also had a CD player installed in my car so my Bible on CDs can be played after anything Christian gets banned

The salespeople thought I was crazy buying things that are considered so "archaic" but I know what God is telling me to do, to help those left behind...
I still have mine. I've heard content providers, like Amazon, say they can revoke access to purchased digital content, at any time and for any reason. So I like my "hardcopies".
 

DWB

Well-Known Member
No the Church Fathers are a library of sermons, letters, historical accounts, and commentaries written by the early church fathers, and the best of them are the earliest of all.

It's kind of like a first century to 2cd century collection of Andy Woods, Arnold Fruchtenbaum and Jack Kelly combined with a little Winston Churchill's histories.

What I find fascinating and often times endearing, is how like us they were. And how similar the times were--tumults, arguments, wars, fears of death, persecutions coming in waves, and how hard they worked contending against the heresies that grew like weeds. Paul's prophecy was so right, wolves ravaged the flock and these men stood against such things. It's why they wrote what they did.

I prefer the Ante Nicene Church Fathers who wrote their stuff before the council of Nicea in 325 when they dealt with the Arian heresy and it's attack on the Trinity.

That is because the closer they are to the time of the apostles, the more accurately they handle the Word of God.

What is also fascinating is that they all quote so much from the Bible that we are able to look back, and see that the Textus Recepticus (TR) text is complete and the deletions that came later and are found in those "earliest manuscripts" happened as copies of copies were done, and the good complete copies were used to death and the ones that missed some parts ended up put aside, and survived due to lack of use.

When you get to read Polycarp-- a disciple of John, or Iraneaus, his disciple, you are "hearing" these very very early church men speak in their own words. The histories they tell explain some of the things people fight about.

There is the account of how Andrew went to Odessa (it was a city kingdom in those days) to evangelize the people there. The same city that is today fearing for it's life.

The one known letter from Mary the mother of Jesus is there. She is gently rebuking one of her overly enthusiastic fans wanting to venerate her and she tells him to put his faith in Christ alone, and give his worship to Christ alone. It's an awesome letter, very simple, direct, quiet and yet stern. Reading it, you see a glimpse of the mother of James and Jude, who raised them, not just Jesus. Direct and firm like them.

And her fan, he goes on to become one of the martyrs under Roman oppression.

In another I read that Athenasius had a bishop that bugged him no end, caused all kinds of uproar in the churches under his authority. GUESS WHAT HIS NAME WAS????

LUCIFER. Yup, his parents named him Light Bearer, and he behaved horribly and was a real thorn in Athenasius's side. That made me laugh but also sympathize with poor Athenasius.

Then there is the story of how the Roman church decided that because Rome was the capitol of all the Empire, they should be the ruling church body, not Jerusalem. One of the earliest church fathers was so incensed, he wrote a whole thing on the subject, but before anyone could do much about it all, both he and the Roman church leader were killed in the persecutions. Of course Rome continued in that obsession to be first, and they certainly led things downhill after that.

Jerome who put the verses and chapters in the NT leaves hints about why the church stopped teaching about the Rapture and started on the long winding deadly road towards the Catholic teaching of "the City of God" and how the church was supposedly supposed to dominate the world. That's later than the Ante Nicene group but also worth it.

It's all there and so much more. It sat there for many centuries in Catholic libraries, ignored by most.

And if you are interested or anyone else is, Ken Johnson has a book called The Ancient Church Fathers, where you can cherry pick interesting bits like the doctrine of pre millenialism-- here's a hint, the earlier they are, the more pre mil they are. I have the full series on Kindle because I like to make sure Ken and others aren't stringing me along, the Philip Schaff version is the best. Unfortunately they still haven't "kindlized" one of the 6 volumes of the Ante Nicene fathers but when it comes out I'm going for it.
Great info, thanks!!!
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
I dont see how your opioion on this subject could offend anyone. Many teachers, Theologians, and students of the bible disagree on this topic.

Lots of folks think the “days of Noah” couldn't possibly be the times just before He returns at the end of the tribulation. During WWII, some of the heaviest bombed cities were still keeping schools open, weddings still were still taking place, and many jobs were still kept. Even in some of the heavily hit cities in Ukraine, they are still occupied by their citizens, many still walking about, living in their homes ..etc… Scripture is not clear how much time elapses after the last of the Bowl Judgements, and the return of Jesus. Once the judgements stops, and days or even weeks have passed, people may be rejoicing that the terrible times are over, time to live again. How sad will it be for those left behind who remain unsaved when He finally returns.
But remember the Tribulation will be worse than ever experienced before. WWII will be like a tea party compared to what those 7 years will be like.

I can see how this would be referring to the rapture. I think it's interesting that when Noah entered the Ark God waited 7 days before sending the rain. Seems to parallel the 7 years of tribulation and we know the rapture has to happen before that. I know we don't know how sudden, but I'm starting to think it will be closer to the start of the 7 years the more I read about it.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
I dont see how your opioion on this subject could offend anyone. Many teachers, Theologians, and students of the bible disagree on this topic.

Lots of folks think the “days of Noah” couldn't possibly be the times just before He returns at the end of the tribulation. During WWII, some of the heaviest bombed cities were still keeping schools open, weddings still were still taking place, and many jobs were still kept. Even in some of the heavily hit cities in Ukraine, they are still occupied by their citizens, many still walking about, living in their homes ..etc… Scripture is not clear how much time elapses after the last of the Bowl Judgements, and the return of Jesus. Once the judgements stops, and days or even weeks have passed, people may be rejoicing that the terrible times are over, time to live again. How sad will it be for those left behind who remain unsaved when He finally returns.
You do make a good point that it would apply if there was some time between the last bowl and Jesus appearing. That actually makes me think about the verse when Jesus talks about nobody knows the day or the hour but the generation seeing those signs will know the season. Maybe that's why, there is an unspecified time lapse that the saved remnant of Jews are waiting for his return.

Idk just writing out loud, lol.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
The reference to eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, building and planting, may not be as much a reference to "normalcy", as it is to the state of unreadiness, of being unaware.

Jesus invokes Sodom as one of his examples of life before his return. But what was going on in Sodom, the account that Genesis 19 gives, was not "normal". Yes, they were engaged in business and commerce and all the concerns of daily life. But it was also a place of anarchy and wickedness. Any traveller unfortunate enough to have to spend the night on the streets of Sodom was at risk of being robbed, beaten, sexually assaulted and possibly murdered. Even when angels came to visit their city, the men of Sodom's lust were so out of control they wanted to rape them too. Even after they had been struck blind, they were still trying to carry out this act of violence. Where in the world today can one find such a comparison? Only in the most lawless, corrupt areas on earth.

Likewise in the days of Noah. Men's wickedness had become so grave that the Lord himself regretted the days of Creation. Like Sodom, they carried out every day business, but murder, theft, fornication, they were sinning continually and unrepentantly.

The judgment that fell on those who lived in these times remains unequalled. The Flood was virtually an extinction level event. And Sodom was made to be an example to every subsequent generation(Jude 7). Could the times they were living in be considered normal? I don't think so. They were carrying on as if judgment would not come. They should've been aware, but they were not.

Consider the parable of the rich fool in Luke 12:13-21. A reference to "eating and drinking" is made there as well, but it is in the context of celebration, of indulgence, of a man taking pleasure in things that are temporal. He has made no preparations for eternity, his thoughts are only in the here and now. So his death comes unexpectedly, but if he had been laying up treasure in heaven instead of on earth, he would've been prepared. Jesus described him as being poor towards God. And I believe this man's experience could be shared by many in the last days before Jesus return. Their focus, their love for things is on this earth, in this life. Building and planting, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Life's passions and pleasures, trying to lay up treasure for themselves. Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, your heart will be also". So their heart is in these activities. Receiving the word, the Gospel, preparing to stand before God in judgment, they have no concern for these things. And this is why when judgment comes, they are found so unaware.
Wow I never thought of it that way. That is true that Sodom and Noah's days were so extreme in their level of wickedness that normal may not even be appropriate.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
Consider the below response of those who survived the Seal and Trumpet Judgements, in which approx 1/2 of those left behind were killed. In the midst of enduring trials, they still celebrate the death of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Its human nature to relish in survival, especially after going through a severe trial. Troops returning from a long tour in combat often want to celebrate.

Those that make it through all 21 judgements, will be some of the same ones who shook their fist at God during the most severest of judgements. When the judgements finally stop, those still alive IMO will feel empowered like never before. After all, they survived such a period that killed the majority of people on earth. Im quite confident they will celebrate like never before, and try to return to life as it was. However, as we know, this wont last long before He grabs ahold of them for the Sheep and goat judgement.
Excellent points! Wow I haven't been this excited about Bible Prophecy in a while. So many excellent verses and thoughts. :hyper:read2
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
Consider the below response of those who survived the Seal and Trumpet Judgements, in which approx 1/2 of those left behind were killed. In the midst of enduring trials, they still celebrate the death of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Its human nature to relish in survival, especially after going through a severe trial. Troops returning from a long tour in combat often want to celebrate.

Those that make it through all 21 judgements, will be some of the same ones who shook their fist at God during the most severest of judgements. When the judgements finally stop, those still alive IMO will feel empowered like never before. After all, they survived such a period that killed the majority of people on earth. Im quite confident they will celebrate like never before, and try to return to life as it was. However, as we know, this wont last long before He grabs ahold of them for the Sheep and goat judgement.
Nice one Andy.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Hello Margery. I believe I have every copy of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene church fathers ever published. So, I was wondering which vol six you were referring to? There are 10 Ante-Nicene volumes. I think all are on Amazon. Good to read your posts and thoughts. Always enjoy getting insights into what you are thinking about. :)
HI MIKE!!!! Good to see you. It's the Ante Nicene fathers, volume 2 in the Enhanced Phillip Schaff one that I am missing. That enhanced Kindle version is a 9 volume set of the Ante Nicene ECF and that is the one I love. I plan to get the Nicene ones, it was from that part of them that Athenasius (and I spell him wrong regularly) sits in and was the one I initially fell in love with.

I had just been excommunicated from that church in the late 90's and on the way out I found that they were actually giving a blind eye to some NON TRINITARIANS in the church who were allowed to teach that pernicious doctrine of demons albeit quietly.

My sister was able to borrow the entire set from a collector she knew and I decided it might be good to curl up with the guy who distinguished himself for his defence of the Trinity and I fell in love with his writing.

When I discovered that they were on kindle, it was one of the first things I bought after buying a kindle reader device. I need to get back in there (volume 2 is still mia) and get me the Nicene lot and re read Athenasius. His little problem with that bishop named Lucifer who was under
A's authority and a real burr in his saddle was HILARIOUS! It comforted me to hear his difficulties and it was so reassuring that I wasn't being too fussy as some accused me of.

The actual excommunication happened because I wrote 88 identical letters to the church deacons, elders, co pastors, the governing body of churches, as well as the people we knew well in that church and sent them out all at once.

In the letters I explained in glorious detail the anti semitism, the bad doctrines that had seeped in (Toronto Airport Vineyard stuff, IHOP, NAR before it was really called NAR etc)

I tactlessly mentioned that I thought it was an egregious error to allow Non Trinitarian teaching to simply appease a few elderly heretics. Yes that was the phrase I used.

After that I found out there were a few more elderly heretics than I originally supposed.

One in particular screamed abuse at me at the top of her elderly heretical voice in the only Protestant Christian bookstore in that city. Alarming the patrons and causing me to think twice about going out in church circles in public for a time.

It's why I happen to use Athenasius as a screen name. Because sometimes you just have to go against the tide of popular opinion and Athenasius Contra Mundem seemed like a good life motto for me too.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Thanks for sharing and standing up for the faith. What an experience. I had always wondered why you chose Athanasius. I like him too! I will keep my eyes peeled for a copy. I have the Ante Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene volumes, thirty-eight in total.

Is it this one? https://www.christianbook.com/ante-...-ebook/philip-schaff/9781610250290/pd/13749EB

Edit: search for this on Kindle Store:

The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words $2.99 on Kindle WOW

 
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Armor of Light

Praising my Savior all the day long!
The people who see Revelation come to life also witness many extraordinary things. But they don't turn from their behaviour, they don't repent. They continue on in their murders, their thefts, their idolatry, their worship of the Beast. They are spiritually blind, and they are unprepared for Jesus' Second Coming.
Stated in Revelation that during the Tribulation 1 angel will have a specific job to do , preach the Gospel, he will fly all over the earth, every nation and tongue, every person will hear the gospel preached, but most will not accept the message.
 
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