Len
Well-Known Member
I am not too sure of that as people will not be going about life normally just before the Lord (known?) return ,,,,, especially with a bunch of demons attacking everyone, judgment upon judgement happening etc etc
The Days of Reckoning
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
Reason & Hope
Well-Known Member
This article?Yes. The Wilfred Hahn (?) article posted in the new RR "From Our End Times Writers" articles today coincides perfectly with this. Financial crash, worldwide, post-Rapture. I appreciate his experiential views, from his economist line-of-work. He knows a "before" would sabotage the Deceiver's chief strategy to manipulate the masses. Everything has to appear "hunky dory" (as if...how asleep can you be!?).
This is my favorite "Pete" article. Discovered it Friday, used it in my "Readying" post, and have it glued in the prayer journal. He seems to always read my mind and answer the questions I'm rapidly rotating...
Something else the Rapture triggers? The worldwide soul harvest/ revival...hence prepping some homes.
From Ex Nihilo to Hedonistic Nihilism
Spartan Sprinter 1
Formerly known as Shaun
i believe that's the article being referred to
JoyJoyJoy
I Shall Not Be Moved
It would be so nice if we could all meet up at a little diner and sit around chewing the fat and having this discussion. No complaints about our fellowship on RF, but in person would be nice.
Hopefully soon at the big Cafe in the sky....
Hopefully soon at the big Cafe in the sky....
Carl
Well-Known Member
Since the Restrainer is limiting the amount of change away from God He has to be removed. And that happens when the Rapture occurs. The Rapture happens when there are no more people left in this world to accept Salvation under current conditions.
I personally think the days of Noe and Lot are now. At the end of the trib, I can't see people eating, drinking, marrying, building, planting, etc. That would not be the worse time the world has ever seen. I think survival will be what's happening at that point.
Just my opinion from reading.
Just my opinion from reading.
soundingthealarm
Fleethewrath2come
I believe it to be talking NOT about the Rapture and Not about the 2nd coming but rather "the Day of the Lord" , the commencement of the 7 years of Tribulation for neglecting such a great salvation
God told Noah to enter the ark (rapture) THEN "and they knew not and the flood came and took them all away" = The Day of the Lord
they neglected the saving of the Ark
God told Noah to enter the ark (rapture) THEN "and they knew not and the flood came and took them all away" = The Day of the Lord
they neglected the saving of the Ark
Tall Timbers
Imperfect but forgiven
Towards the end of Tribulation, the small percentage of the original population that has survived until then will probably find each day a challenge to survive, whether they have the Mark (in the common man's case) or not.
Epieikes
Well-Known Member
Tis it, itself.
lismore
Well-Known Member
Yes. As it was in the days of Noah. Genesis 7:16 says that when Noah and his family entered the Ark God closed the door. Then outside judgement began. Figuratively God closing the door could be speaking of the rapture after which the tribulation will fall on those (outside) left behind. God Bless
DWB
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%, I have always believed the Rapture is revealed only by Paul.
athenasius
Well-Known Member
No the Church Fathers are a library of sermons, letters, historical accounts, and commentaries written by the early church fathers, and the best of them are the earliest of all.
It's kind of like a first century to 2cd century collection of Andy Woods, Arnold Fruchtenbaum and Jack Kelly combined with a little Winston Churchill's histories.
What I find fascinating and often times endearing, is how like us they were. And how similar the times were--tumults, arguments, wars, fears of death, persecutions coming in waves, and how hard they worked contending against the heresies that grew like weeds. Paul's prophecy was so right, wolves ravaged the flock and these men stood against such things. It's why they wrote what they did.
I prefer the Ante Nicene Church Fathers who wrote their stuff before the council of Nicea in 325 when they dealt with the Arian heresy and it's attack on the Trinity.
That is because the closer they are to the time of the apostles, the more accurately they handle the Word of God.
What is also fascinating is that they all quote so much from the Bible that we are able to look back, and see that the Textus Recepticus (TR) text is complete and the deletions that came later and are found in those "earliest manuscripts" happened as copies of copies were done, and the good complete copies were used to death and the ones that missed some parts ended up put aside, and survived due to lack of use.
When you get to read Polycarp-- a disciple of John, or Iraneaus, his disciple, you are "hearing" these very very early church men speak in their own words. The histories they tell explain some of the things people fight about.
There is the account of how Andrew went to Odessa (it was a city kingdom in those days) to evangelize the people there. The same city that is today fearing for it's life.
The one known letter from Mary the mother of Jesus is there. She is gently rebuking one of her overly enthusiastic fans wanting to venerate her and she tells him to put his faith in Christ alone, and give his worship to Christ alone. It's an awesome letter, very simple, direct, quiet and yet stern. Reading it, you see a glimpse of the mother of James and Jude, who raised them, not just Jesus. Direct and firm like them.
And her fan, he goes on to become one of the martyrs under Roman oppression.
In another I read that Athenasius had a bishop that bugged him no end, caused all kinds of uproar in the churches under his authority. GUESS WHAT HIS NAME WAS????
LUCIFER. Yup, his parents named him Light Bearer, and he behaved horribly and was a real thorn in Athenasius's side. That made me laugh but also sympathize with poor Athenasius.
Then there is the story of how the Roman church decided that because Rome was the capitol of all the Empire, they should be the ruling church body, not Jerusalem. One of the earliest church fathers was so incensed, he wrote a whole thing on the subject, but before anyone could do much about it all, both he and the Roman church leader were killed in the persecutions. Of course Rome continued in that obsession to be first, and they certainly led things downhill after that.
Jerome who put the verses and chapters in the NT leaves hints about why the church stopped teaching about the Rapture and started on the long winding deadly road towards the Catholic teaching of "the City of God" and how the church was supposedly supposed to dominate the world. That's later than the Ante Nicene group but also worth it.
It's all there and so much more. It sat there for many centuries in Catholic libraries, ignored by most.
And if you are interested or anyone else is, Ken Johnson has a book called The Ancient Church Fathers, where you can cherry pick interesting bits like the doctrine of pre millenialism-- here's a hint, the earlier they are, the more pre mil they are. I have the full series on Kindle because I like to make sure Ken and others aren't stringing me along, the Philip Schaff version is the best. Unfortunately they still haven't "kindlized" one of the 6 volumes of the Ante Nicene fathers but when it comes out I'm going for it.
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BlessedBeliever
Member
Greetings Andy,
I’m new here, so I probably shouldn’t disagree with anyone for at least a month so people can get to know me better and know that I’m never out to win debates, but merely a seed sower.
i have studied Bible prophecy for over 30 years and have read the Olivet Discourse 1000 times and have read everyone who is somebody’s commentaries and interpretations. I have pondered all of their words because I respect them and I know God has given some the gift of teaching.
I have wrestled with the Olivet Discourse interpretation for many years and have gone back and forth until finally I decided to throw my hat in the one ring….the ring that says Jesus did teach about the rapture in Revelation when talking to the churches, Jesus did teach about the rapture in the Upper Room Discourse in John 14:1-5, so why can’t Jesus also be teaching about the rapture in the OD, Matthew 24-25? It seems to me Luke’s Olivet Discourse in both Chapters 17 and 21 reaffirm to me at least that Jesus is talking about the rapture as well as his second coming. The passages Pete cited regarding the Days of Noah and Lot only make sense to me if one is talking about the rapture. I don’t see how things can be “normal” if you interpret this to be just before Christ returns and the whole world has just experience the wrath of the seals, trumpets, and bowls.
I could go on because I truly have so many notes I have made over the years on this topic, but like I said, I really need to keep a more low profile, especially for now. And again, I’m not looking for you or anyone to align themselves with me on this topic…that means nothing to me. All I’ve done is share my research and conclusions I have drawn though my studies….which doesn’t mean they are right. I could be wrong, which won’t be the first time nor the last time. I am not a prophet and I most certainly am flawed…. just like everyone else. Ask my wife if you need confirmation on the latter. Lol
Anyhow, I hope I have not offended anyone by being so bold. I also hope I haven’t violated a rule here….let me know if I have….I will repent if I did. Cheers.
BB
”All praise, glory, and honor, to the one who sits on the throne, and to the lamb of God, forever and ever.”
I dont see how your opioion on this subject could offend anyone. Many teachers, Theologians, and students of the bible disagree on this topic.
Lots of folks think the “days of Noah” couldn't possibly be the times just before He returns at the end of the tribulation. During WWII, some of the heaviest bombed cities were still keeping schools open, weddings still were still taking place, and many jobs were still kept. Even in some of the heavily hit cities in Ukraine, they are still occupied by their citizens, many still walking about, living in their homes ..etc… Scripture is not clear how much time elapses after the last of the Bowl Judgements, and the return of Jesus. Once the judgements stops, and days or even weeks have passed, people may be rejoicing that the terrible times are over, time to live again. How sad will it be for those left behind who remain unsaved when He finally returns.
mikhen7
Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Hello Margery. I believe I have every copy of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene church fathers ever published. So, I was wondering which vol six you were referring to? There are 10 Ante-Nicene volumes. I think all are on Amazon. Good to read your posts and thoughts. Always enjoy getting insights into what you are thinking about.
usoutpost31
Well-Known Member
The reference to eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, building and planting, may not be as much a reference to "normalcy", as it is to the state of unreadiness, of being unaware.
Jesus invokes Sodom as one of his examples of life before his return. But what was going on in Sodom, the account that Genesis 19 gives, was not "normal". Yes, they were engaged in business and commerce and all the concerns of daily life. But it was also a place of anarchy and wickedness. Any traveller unfortunate enough to have to spend the night on the streets of Sodom was at risk of being robbed, beaten, sexually assaulted and possibly murdered. Even when angels came to visit their city, the men of Sodom's lust were so out of control they wanted to rape them too. Even after they had been struck blind, they were still trying to carry out this act of violence. Where in the world today can one find such a comparison? Only in the most lawless, corrupt areas on earth.
Likewise in the days of Noah. Men's wickedness had become so grave that the Lord himself regretted the days of Creation. Like Sodom, they carried out every day business, but murder, theft, fornication, they were sinning continually and unrepentantly.
The judgment that fell on those who lived in these times remains unequalled. The Flood was virtually an extinction level event. And Sodom was made to be an example to every subsequent generation(Jude 7). Could the times they were living in be considered normal? I don't think so. They were carrying on as if judgment would not come. They should've been aware, but they were not.
Consider the parable of the rich fool in Luke 12:13-21. A reference to "eating and drinking" is made there as well, but it is in the context of celebration, of indulgence, of a man taking pleasure in things that are temporal. He has made no preparations for eternity, his thoughts are only in the here and now. So his death comes unexpectedly, but if he had been laying up treasure in heaven instead of on earth, he would've been prepared. Jesus described him as being poor towards God. And I believe this man's experience could be shared by many in the last days before Jesus return. Their focus, their love for things is on this earth, in this life. Building and planting, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Life's passions and pleasures, trying to lay up treasure for themselves. Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, your heart will be also". So their heart is in these activities. Receiving the word, the Gospel, preparing to stand before God in judgment, they have no concern for these things. And this is why when judgment comes, they are found so unaware.
Jesus invokes Sodom as one of his examples of life before his return. But what was going on in Sodom, the account that Genesis 19 gives, was not "normal". Yes, they were engaged in business and commerce and all the concerns of daily life. But it was also a place of anarchy and wickedness. Any traveller unfortunate enough to have to spend the night on the streets of Sodom was at risk of being robbed, beaten, sexually assaulted and possibly murdered. Even when angels came to visit their city, the men of Sodom's lust were so out of control they wanted to rape them too. Even after they had been struck blind, they were still trying to carry out this act of violence. Where in the world today can one find such a comparison? Only in the most lawless, corrupt areas on earth.
Likewise in the days of Noah. Men's wickedness had become so grave that the Lord himself regretted the days of Creation. Like Sodom, they carried out every day business, but murder, theft, fornication, they were sinning continually and unrepentantly.
The judgment that fell on those who lived in these times remains unequalled. The Flood was virtually an extinction level event. And Sodom was made to be an example to every subsequent generation(Jude 7). Could the times they were living in be considered normal? I don't think so. They were carrying on as if judgment would not come. They should've been aware, but they were not.
Consider the parable of the rich fool in Luke 12:13-21. A reference to "eating and drinking" is made there as well, but it is in the context of celebration, of indulgence, of a man taking pleasure in things that are temporal. He has made no preparations for eternity, his thoughts are only in the here and now. So his death comes unexpectedly, but if he had been laying up treasure in heaven instead of on earth, he would've been prepared. Jesus described him as being poor towards God. And I believe this man's experience could be shared by many in the last days before Jesus return. Their focus, their love for things is on this earth, in this life. Building and planting, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Life's passions and pleasures, trying to lay up treasure for themselves. Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, your heart will be also". So their heart is in these activities. Receiving the word, the Gospel, preparing to stand before God in judgment, they have no concern for these things. And this is why when judgment comes, they are found so unaware.
mikhen7
Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Whichever way you look at it, the world (Global in scope) for the most part, is unbelieving, and thus, unconcerned with spiritual things. Having endured 21 judgments of God, I too cannot envision this to be the case at the end of the tribulation period, but respect other's positions.
usoutpost31
Well-Known Member
Spiritual apathy is not given as a general state of being but as a specific condition in the last days. This is supported by many other passages of Scripture.
Consider the Israelites of Moses' time. They witnessed the ten plagues of Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea, but 40 days after Moses' and God's apparent absence, they were worshipping a golden calf. Just because they witnessed extraordinary things, even though they knew God was behind them, that doesn't make them faithful, or spiritually awake. They didn't believe, and at the first sign of trouble, they revealed their unbelief.
The people who see Revelation come to life also witness many extraordinary things. But they don't turn from their behaviour, they don't repent. They continue on in their murders, their thefts, their idolatry, their worship of the Beast. They are spiritually blind, and they are unprepared for Jesus' Second Coming.
usoutpost31
Well-Known Member
To put it another way....we should ask, should the men of Sodom, or the people in Noah's day, have been aware that judgment was coming, or should they have been unaware? Is it understandable that they are eating and drinking, building and planting, marrying and giving in marriage? Is it because there were no signs that judgment was coming?
Because Jesus gave us a list of signs to watch for. Matthew 24:4-30. Can we describe these things, that Jesus listed, as "normal"? Almost half of Matt 24 and 25 consists of warnings to watch for his coming. The signs must be there, and what Jesus describes in the first half of Matthew 24 cannot be considered as normal. The times of Noah and Lot are examples of people who "knew not", until the day of judgement came. Not because it was impossible to know, not because they could not know - Noah knew. But because they were not righteous people, their concerns were for temporary things. The preaching during the Tribulation is ignored, and they are deceived by the Antichrist and believe what he says, over what the people sent by God, say.
Because Jesus gave us a list of signs to watch for. Matthew 24:4-30. Can we describe these things, that Jesus listed, as "normal"? Almost half of Matt 24 and 25 consists of warnings to watch for his coming. The signs must be there, and what Jesus describes in the first half of Matthew 24 cannot be considered as normal. The times of Noah and Lot are examples of people who "knew not", until the day of judgement came. Not because it was impossible to know, not because they could not know - Noah knew. But because they were not righteous people, their concerns were for temporary things. The preaching during the Tribulation is ignored, and they are deceived by the Antichrist and believe what he says, over what the people sent by God, say.
Epieikes
Well-Known Member
Someone may have shared this already, but Dr. Andy Woods has a NEW two-part (so far, maybe in entirety) PPOV ("Pastor's Point of View") teaching entitled "The Days of Noah." We are halfway thru part 1, having chosen to start it late last night after Mike Golay..."Where Are We On the Prophetic Timeline?" That one was from 6 months ago, good also, esp. when needing witnessing tools, but Andy's came out on March 17th. He raises parallels that had escaped us...enjoy!
