The Days of Reckoning

Chris

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The Days of Reckoning
By Pete Garcia

There has been a lot of discussion over the past couple of years regarding not just the fate of America in the last days, but Christians in America. From a biblically prophetic standpoint, there is no mention in scripture of a nation like the United States of America in the last day’s geopolitical panorama. Adding credence to this rather profound argument from silence is the seemingly ever-increasing list of existential problems currently facing our nation: the plandemic, the government’s unconstitutional handling of said crisis, the intentional stoking of racial tensions, the southern border crisis, insurmountable national debt, military, and diplomatic incompetence, skyrocketing inflation, global supply chain challenges, and the relentless push by communists and sexual perverts to dismantle the nuclear family — yes, America’s problems are piling up with no end in sight!

Even non-believers are seeing this, and are beginning to ask how this all ends. Hollywood and the entertainment industry are trying to answer, and are bent on capitalizing on the whole apocalyptic ‘end of the world’ genre as if there is no tomorrow (pun intended). Deemed as entertainment, Hollywood and the entertainment industry have taken on the new role as a global dealer, peddling out myth and fantasy to both desensitize and distract an increasingly anxious and panicky general public.

As it were, the political and military think tanks (the “grown-ups”) have also been dealing myth and fantasy for decades, confidently prophesying that America will remain strong. Some of the more provocative ones have tacitly mentioned a soft decline by the mid- 21st century, but none predicted our current trajectory. In fact, most of them now predict a soft-landing sometime in the 2040s to 2050s. Few (if any) publically announced the wheels coming off the bus as early as the 2020s for fear of losing their Washington D.C. bona fides. In fact, the only two non-religious groups who have been repeatedly calling for our doom and gloom over the past twenty years (with about the same track record I might add) are the gold and silver hustlers, and the environmentalist wackos. Both are in the ‘fear-business’ and both keep updating their date-setting charts for when they think the world is going to end.

Nevertheless, the average (awakened) American knows. They know the shine has worn off and that the new car smell has faded. The average American knows the country they were raised up in, is not the same country we are in now. The average American, who is actually paying just a little bit of attention to what is going on in the world, is finally realizing this with a growing sense of terror. The fear of our national collapse went straight from impossible to inevitable without ever pausing at improbable.

So how do things end for America from a biblical standpoint? Is it a day of reckoning, or is it days? Is it a sudden overthrow, or a drawn-out period of phased collapsing? Perhaps its a bit of both. I like the quote from Ernest Hemingway’s 1926 book, The Sun Also Rises, in which the character (Mike Campbell) says:

“How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked.

“Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”

And who’s fault is it? The Democrats? The Republicans? The Globalists? The Deep Staters? The Church?

All and none of the above.

Yes, we are all at fault, but God foreknew this and He set the times, seasons, and boundaries by which nations would live. And yes, the Church, by and large, needs to wake up; however, this is not solely on the back of the churches. God will not hold this nation faultless given all the blood we’ve spilled on the altar of abortion (+70M). We can pray and ask God to perhaps delay that day of reckoning so more can be saved, but that window is quickly shutting. Events are moving so fast in the world now, that the sheer weight of its prophetic-geopolitical momentum cannot be slowed, save God slows it.

Given what Scripture says about the last day’s geopolitical construct (and it says a lot), and the fact we aren’t mentioned, means there are really only two serious options for our nation. The first is quick and sudden. The second is painfully drawn out over time, and then sudden. For the sake of argument, I’ll include a third, fourth, and fifth scenario, but these are highly unlikely as standalone, pre-tribulation events.

Option A — Divine Crisis: In this scenario, things continue on (in our increasingly deteriorating world) as they always have until the Lord suddenly, and without warning, removes His bride, the Church, from the earth at the Rapture. While all, true, born-again Christians are removed from around the world at this point, the 30M Christians (est. 10%) removed from the United States sets in motion a series of cascading global calamities.

First, it collapses the world’s only true superpower nation, the United States of America. This then collapses the world’s reserve currency, the US Dollar. This then upends the global economy. This then creates a power vacuum within the geopolitical power structure that other nations (say Russia, Iran, and China) quickly seek to fill. This event may or may not coincide with an existential natural calamity such as the eruption of the Yellowstone Supervolcano, or a massive geological event such as the Juan de Fuca Subduction Zone and/or the New Madrid Seismic Zone.

Option B — Consequential Tragedy: In this scenario, after suffering numerous, existential blows to the economy, the constitution, and to the morale of the American people, our nation finally begins to fracture. In response to either the tyrannical federal overreach and/or our skyrocketing inflation, a popular uprising (the people’s revolt) rises up across numerous cities and states prompting some federal response in the form of martial law. There could also be some kind of fracturing between the states and the federal government, fomenting talk and acts of secession, which also triggers a draconian reaction from the government. At which point, the military and law enforcement agencies across the nation also become divided, causing mass desertion and lawful insurrections against unlawful commands.

Both the saved and unsaved are impacted at this point, and while deprivation becomes the norm, persecution against Christians will be territorial, largely depending upon the predominant population groups of a particular area. IOW, persecution against Christians will depend on where in the US you live. The US begins to implode from within and causes global markets to lose confidence in the USD which prompts the immediate abandonment of its global reserve status. This upends the global economic and geopolitical order, and ultimately, our dissolution as a constitutional republic triggers a power vacuum causing competing powers to fill. At this point, adding insult to injury, God then issues the order for the Rapture.

Option C — The third possibility is purely a natural disaster-type scenario. If the Juan de Fuca Subduction Zone becomes active, it could trigger a massive earthquake, tsunami, and/or volcanic activity in the Pacific Northwest. The same could be said for the Yellowstone Supervolcano, or the New Madrid Seismic Zone. If our end came about through this type of scenario, this means either God allowed it or chose not to stop it as a form of punishment for the sins of this nation. Think Pompeii on steroids. In this scenario, both the saved and unsaved are impacted equally. However, I personally do not believe this to be a viable option as a standalone event before the Rapture, and I’ll list my reasons below in the assessment.

Option D — The fourth possibility is in my opinion, the most unlikely. It is where another nation, or coalition of nations, strikes the US through a series of coordinated, multi-domain attacks (e.g., information warfare, cyber-attacks, EMP, nuclear, etc.), but this is far less likely. For all its faults, the US still has the most dominant military on the planet. Why would the enemies of the US attack her and risk another Pearl Harbor moment when they could just watch her fall apart internally? Why risk rallying the world’s most dangerous nation? Again, it could happen, however, I do not see it happening prior to the Rapture. Nevertheless, I put this on here simply for the purpose of acknowledging it could happen, however unlikely.

Option E — The fifth possibility, is the “Extra-terrestrial Option” with ‘little green men’ (or whatever they disguise themselves as) making some huge, public arrival on our planet. Now, I believe ETs are actually demonic entities and will make an appearance, they will do so after the Rapture, not before.

Assessment​

Both Option A and B have a lot of pros and cons. The pros for Option B are that we are witnessing our national breakdown in real-time. The cons against it are that it seems to not coincide with how the Bible says the days are just prior to the Rapture. Therefore, we must weigh (as in giving importance to) the pros and cons against what Scripture says (or doesn’t say) regarding this time we are living in. Let us go to the passages which set the context for these last days and see which is most likely to play out.

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” – Luke 17:26-30 (my emphasis)

In this passage, Option A is the most obvious choice, primarily, because it strongly suggests a sense of normalcy existing in the world prior to the Lord’s return at the Rapture. Clearly, the world will be anything but normal at the time of the Second Coming, so this must portend to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture time-frame. Note that Jesus isn’t focusing His message on the wickedness of the world (although we know it was very wicked back then) and He wasn’t focusing on the supernatural/occult conditions (although we know that world was saturated with it). Rather, He focused on the normal occurrences that have been in every generation. Buying and selling, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, and so forth. These are signs of normalcy, not of desperation or calamity. Here is another passage that correlates with this same theme of normalcy.

“But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.” – 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 (my emphasis)

Here again, we see this sense of normalcy in the world. Things are one way, then suddenly, destruction strikes with a vengeance. In fact, Paul goes out of his way not to just contrast the distinctions between peace and safety, and sudden destruction, but also between the “you” “we” “they” “them.” If this were a standalone passage (i.e. not connected to any particular doctrine), I would say that this ‘sudden destruction’ could mean pretty much anything natural or man-caused. But, because it is injected within the context of the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (1 Thess. 4:13-5:9), it is the suddenness of the Rapture itself which catches the world off-guard. One more passage correlates with this same theme.

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” – Revelation 3:10 (my emphasis)

I know this passage isn’t directed specifically at the Church in America. However, it is directed to all churches within our present dispensation known as the mystery kingdom. Furthermore, it is one of the clearest passages regarding the fate of the Church in the last days by none other than Jesus himself. Things will become more stressful and difficult for the Church in the last days, particularly those who Jesus considers “Philadelphian.” However, we don’t see the same sense of foreordained martyrdom for Philadelphia as we did for Smyrna.

Now, a lot of arguments could be made for Christians around the world who are currently suffering from severe persecution. This does not diminish or denigrate in any way their present trials. However, the collapse of say, Pakistan or Iran (take your pick of Christian persecuting countries) would not trigger the same global effect as the collapse of the United States would. The only way the US gets to that point of mass persecution against Christians is if our whole system collapses. Just because California wants to go full-tilt crazy against Christians, doesn’t mean Texas or Florida will. That’s just a safeguard of our separation of powers. Thus, the only trial that could come upon the ‘whole world’ (as indicated in Rev. 3:10) are those trials that are global in nature. The only trial we’ve had of this kind so far is the 2020 plandemic. Even then the response has been varied depending on where you live.

Therefore, if the US collapsed (for whatever reason), that would trigger a worldwide crisis, simply due to the expansive nature of US involvement in nearly every facet of life on earth. Thus, as the fate of America goes, so goes the world. The United States through both divine providence and human machinations has intricately interwoven itself into nearly every economy, every technology, and every geopolitical consideration since World War II. It’s hard to imagine a situation where the US doesn’t have some kind of stake in it. Granted, this ‘staked interest’ is currently eroding away rather quickly under our current administration, nevertheless, it’s still there. Parenthetically, we are also the world’s greatest roadblock to global governance. Hence, our removal as the world’s global superpower has to change before the end can come.

Conclusion​

“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.” – Acts 17:26-27 (my emphasis)

Given our present economic and societal woes, it’s tempting and natural to want to jump on the Option B bandwagon. At the rate things are going here in 2022, it’s natural for us to want to conclude given our national trajectory, we will implode first causing months/years of increasing economic deprivation and persecution before our final deliverance at the Rapture. It’s natural to conclude that Christians will once again, given the mad-dash towards globalism, suffer under the bootheels of antichristian totalitarianism. It’s natural to think that way because, for most of the Church’s history, that’s the way its been. It’s a natural and logical deduction…were the Rapture, not also a reality we have to factor into our planning. But it is. And we just happen to be that generation alive when all of the converging events (the two thousand year cycle, Israel back in the land, the push towards globalism, technology, lawlessness, etc.) are coming to a head.

To a finer point though, had our present situation (globalism on steroids) begun back in 2016, say, under a Hillary Clinton administration, I would say that Option B (national collapse/Christian persecution in America) would have already happened.

But that’s not how things turned out.

I believe the Trump presidency served as a final ‘grace period’ for our nation. No one, not even he, believed he would actually win the 2016 election. It still boggles the mind. Moreover, had fraud not played a definitive role in the 2020 election, he would still be president. Therefore, it’s my assessment that God allowed Trump to win for two specific purposes — 1) finalize the status of Jerusalem as Israel’s ancient and eternal capital in the eyes of the Gentile world, and 2) expose the rottenness of the Deep State embedded within our government. And because we know God is longsuffering that none should perish, the extra time also allowed more souls to be saved, all of which, is a win-win-win for God.

Another reason why I don’t believe our nation will collapse prior to the Rapture is that human government’s destiny is not set to continue indefinitely. Throughout Scripture, God has always operated with a structured timeframe in mind— whether we are talking about the days of creation, the antediluvian period, the dealings with the Israelites, and with the Gentile nations. Mankind has always operated under the divine parameters of God’s prophetic calendar. Our day and age is no exception.

Given the past two-thousand-year cycles, and the fact we are approaching the two-thousandth year mark of our Lord’s death, burial, and resurrection, all these things (the Church Age) are about to come to their conclusion anyway. That is not just my opinion but is scriptural.

“And they (the Jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” – Luke 21:24 (my emphasis)

&

“For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” – Romans 11:25 (my emphasis)

&

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” – 2 Thess. 2:7-8 (my emphasis)

Let me conclude with this. I know the times are growing dark and evil is on the rise, and lawlessness seems to be winning the battle. They are, it is, and it will…however, the battle is not the war. God is still in control, not just over the nations, but also over every micro-transaction that takes place every single second of the day. There is nothing that escapes His watchful eye, and He has already seen the end, so none of it is a surprise to Him. And just as God is perfectly longsuffering, He is also perfectly just. In His justness, a day of reckoning must come upon the earth. This includes the opening salvo of removing the world’s current superpower.

Although many might scoff at the notion of the Rapture as pure escapism; that we shouldn’t escape this coming judgment just because we are Americans, this misunderstands the context of the situation.

American Christians aren’t any better than other Christians from around the world. In fact, our generation (alive) of believers aren’t any more or less holy than any who have come before us. If you are a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, yours and my holiness aren’t even in question. We are covered in His blood, not our own good works. If that weren’t so, none of us would deserve heaven. Rather, God has afforded us to live in the moments right before His return. This is both a tremendous honor and a terrible privilege (i.e., being a watchman).

And if we are in Him (if you are born again believer- you are) then there is nothing, nothing in this life that can touch you without His say so (remember Job). And if something does affect or impact you negatively, then it will be worked out for His glory, and He will arm you (and I) with the tools to overcome these things. Do not mistake my confidence in God’s plan for overconfidence in my own abilities. I am nothing more than a mortally weak, morally frail, blood-bought sinner saved by grace. I am not confident in my own strength, because I know I have none. I am confident in God’s plan for my life and have to wholly rest in His strength. When we do that, it takes the weight off our shoulders, and back onto His, where it belongs. Because only He is strong enough to carry it. In closing, remember this —

“Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ… For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.” – Philippians 1:6, 3:20-21

https://www.raptureforums.com/pete-garcia/the-days-of-reckoning/
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Option A — Divine Crisis: In this scenario, things continue on (in our increasingly deteriorating world) as they always have until the Lord suddenly, and without warning, removes His bride, the Church, from the earth at the Rapture. While all, true, born-again Christians are removed from around the world at this point, the 30M Christians (est. 10%) removed from the United States sets in motion a series of cascading global calamities.

First, it collapses the world’s only true superpower nation, the United States of America. This then collapses the world’s reserve currency, the US Dollar. This then upends the global economy. This then creates a power vacuum within the geopolitical power structure that other nations (say Russia, Iran, and China) quickly seek to fill. This event may or may not coincide with an existential natural calamity such as the eruption of the Yellowstone Supervolcano, or a massive geological event such as the Juan de Fuca Subduction Zone and/or the New Madrid Seismic Zone.
I believe the above option is what will collapse the USA, and lead to the eventual OWG.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
The pros for Option B are that we are witnessing our national breakdown in real-time. The cons against it are that it seems to not coincide with how the Bible says the days are just prior to the Rapture. Therefore, we must weigh (as in giving importance to) the pros and cons against what Scripture says (or doesn’t say) regarding this time we are living in. Let us go to the passages which set the context for these last days and see which is most likely to play out.

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” – Luke 17:26-30 (my emphasis)
One of the few times I disagree with Pete. I believe scripture is clear Jesus was not referring to the times before the rapture (nor did He ever teach about the rapture), in the above, He was referring to His second coming at the end ot the tribulation. At the end of the 7 bowl judgements, the bible is not clear on how much time is left before the end of the tribulation. For those still alive, after living through all the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgements, when its finally somewhat calm, the world will believe its over, and be happy and celebrate - as in the days of Noah.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Therefore, if the US collapsed (for whatever reason), that would trigger a worldwide crisis, simply due to the expansive nature of US involvement in nearly every facet of life on earth. Thus, as the fate of America goes, so goes the world. The United States through both divine providence and human machinations has intricately interwoven itself into nearly every economy, every technology, and every geopolitical consideration since World War II. It’s hard to imagine a situation where the US doesn’t have some kind of stake in it. Granted, this ‘staked interest’ is currently eroding away rather quickly under our current administration, nevertheless, it’s still there. Parenthetically, we are also the world’s greatest roadblock to global governance. Hence, our removal as the world’s global superpower has to change before the end can come.
This is why I think the Rapture is what triggers the melt down of the world economy. Everything that has happened since the crisis in 2008 wasn't it? seemed aimed at exploding the economy.

The globalist banker elites wanted it, they've worked for it, so very very hard. The sub prime crisis, the plague and many other events in between.

BUT GOD seems to have other plans at the moment.

It should have blown up many times over. But it hasn't.

When this thing finally blows, it'll be a bigger blow to the world than they expected or hoped for.

Removal of the Restrainer is the key to the whole thing. No matter how bad things get before we lift off in the Rapture, it's nothing compared to what's coming.
 

Epieikes

Well-Known Member
This is why I think the Rapture is what triggers the melt down of the world economy. Everything that has happened since the crisis in 2008 wasn't it? seemed aimed at exploding the economy.

The globalist banker elites wanted it, they've worked for it, so very very hard. The sub prime crisis, the plague and many other events in between.

BUT GOD seems to have other plans at the moment.

It should have blown up many times over. But it hasn't.

When this thing finally blows, it'll be a bigger blow to the world than they expected or hoped for.

Removal of the Restrainer is the key to the whole thing. No matter how bad things get before we lift off in the Rapture, it's nothing compared to what's coming.
Yes. The Wilfred Hahn (?) article posted in the new RR "From Our End Times Writers" articles today coincides perfectly with this. Financial crash, worldwide, post-Rapture. I appreciate his experiential views, from his economist line-of-work. He knows a "before" would sabotage the Deceiver's chief strategy to manipulate the masses. Everything has to appear "hunky dory" (as if...how asleep can you be!?).

This is my favorite "Pete" article. Discovered it Friday, used it in my "Readying" post, and have it glued in the prayer journal. He seems to always read my mind and answer the questions I'm rapidly rotating...

Something else the Rapture triggers? The worldwide soul harvest/ revival...hence prepping some homes. :)
 
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Flavius Sabinus

Well-Known Member
Yes. The Wilfred Hahn (?) article posted in the new RR "From Our End Times Writers" articles today coincides perfectly with this. Financial crash, worldwide, post-Rapture. I appreciate his experiential views, from his economist line-of-work. He knows a "before" would sabotage the Deceiver's chief strategy to manipulate the masses. Everything has to appear "hunky dory" (as if...how asleep can you be!?).

This is my favorite "Pete" article. Discovered it Friday, used it in my "Readying" post, and have it glued in the prayer journal. He seems to always read my mind and answer the questions I'm rapidly rotating...

Something else the Rapture triggers? The worldwide soul harvest/ revival...hence prepping some homes. :)
Yes. The Wilfred Hahn (?) article posted in the new RR "From Our End Times Writers" articles today coincides perfectly with this. Financial crash, worldwide, post-Rapture. I appreciate his experiential views, from his economist line-of-work. He knows a "before" would sabotage the Deceiver's chief strategy to manipulate the masses. Everything has to appear "hunky dory" (as if...how asleep can you be!?).

This is my favorite "Pete" article. Discovered it Friday, used it in my "Readying" post, and have it glued in the prayer journal. He seems to always read my mind and answer the questions I'm rapidly rotating...

Something else the Rapture triggers? The worldwide soul harvest/ revival...hence prepping some homes. :)
This is also one of my favorite Pete Garcia articles and I've loved so many! I found it such an inspired summation of these last days events. I get email notices when his commentaries are posted on his website and just wish they were posted here earlier.
 

madcat

Well-Known Member
Maybe there are many being saved (probably the least in the US), at this time on history, but it isn’t rocket science that all of the signs of the tribulation are upon us. It’s all moving so fast, and just one crisis on top of another, none of which is being “solved”. At some point the dam just breaks. And looking at things realistically, these things are man made in as much as much as God allows Satan to inhabit man - wars, monetary implosion, sexual perversion demanded to be accepted, etc.
This is one more article I will copy and add to my “for those left behind” folder of information I have been accumulating over 20 years.
And looking at that folder, I realize the majority of the information is during the past 2 years. I just went and bought a stand-alone DVD player, in case the internet is banned, and especially all Christian sites/references.
I have a “woke” niece with 2 small children nearby, who I hope will find all this information, and God will allow her to believe. If all children are raptured, I would think there would be many trib. saints at that point.
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
One of the few times I disagree with Pete. I believe scripture is clear Jesus was not referring to the times before the rapture (nor did He ever teach about the rapture), in the above, He was referring to His second coming at the end ot the tribulation. At the end of the 7 bowl judgements, the bible is not clear on how much time is left before the end of the tribulation. For those still alive, after living through all the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgements, when its finally somewhat calm, the world will believe its over, and be happy and celebrate - as in the days of Noah.
I agree those days of Noah are before the 2nd Coming, not the Rapture. What's "normal" morphs as it has to, as we see everywhere, so you can't really use "normal" to place this pre-rapture.

However... is our world not becoming more and more like the days of Noah even now? I don't think this is a sudden thing that develops just post the judgments. Andy Wood's last Pastor's Point of View #202, he starts in on a list of 14 characteristics of the antediluvian period, which we see mirrored today. I think he only makes it through 6 or 7 of them in the part 1 tho...
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
This is why I think the Rapture is what triggers the melt down of the world economy. Everything that has happened since the crisis in 2008 wasn't it? seemed aimed at exploding the economy.

Well, I hope you and @Andy C are correct in your thoughts about this as I'd just as soon be gone before the full meltdown. I'm not as optimistic with respect to those thoughts but I don't really have a position, I just figure the Church will see a lot before we're taken out of this mess. I look at Lot as an example, and Noah, and thus sometimes I think we'll see enough craziness that the OWG will be able to establish itself to some extent, divvy up the world and install 10 kings. Since those things happen before the antichrist is revealed, that means it's possible they could come to pass before the Rapture... so if Jesus comes for His Bride close to before The wrath of God befalls the earth, we, the Church could be in for a lot. I say could be as I don't think one idea has more merit than another so long as the Church is gone before the man of perdition is revealed.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Well, I hope you and @Andy C are correct in your thoughts about this as I'd just as soon be gone before the full meltdown. I'm not as optimistic with respect to those thoughts but I don't really have a position, I just figure the Church will see a lot before we're taken out of this mess. I look at Lot as an example, and Noah, and thus sometimes I think we'll see enough craziness that the OWG will be able to establish itself to some extent, divvy up the world and install 10 kings. Since those things happen before the antichrist is revealed, that means it's possible they could come to pass before the Rapture... so if Jesus comes for His Bride close to before The wrath of God befalls the earth, we, the Church could be in for a lot. I say could be as I don't think one idea has more merit than another so long as the Church is gone before the man of perdition is revealed.
I'm in agreement (sounds contradictory but here goes) George thinks I'm an incurable optimist too, and now I'll prove George right.

I think there will be one final (bigger than anything ever felt anywhere anytime in history) economic hit to the world when we go up in the Rapture.

Not that we won't have bad stuff, even big bad stuff, just that I think parts of the economy will continue on to allow that final huge blow that requires a big fix after we are gone. Paving the way for the AC and his rise to the top.

One of the Early Church Fathers agrees with you btw-- I remember posting it in on one of Pete Garcia's article threads that Chris put up--- I can never remember his name off the top but he was about 3 people away from John via Polycarp and Irenaeus. ?Hippolytus???

He said before the Tribulation, before the church was taken up in the Rapture, we would see the 10 kingdoms form or forming, and that was the cue that the Rapture was next however, that destroys the doctrine of Immanency (never can spell that right sorry) but he affirmed we would not, could not see or know the actual Antichrist. But those 10 kingdoms on the other hand will be in sight!

I just always thought it was an interesting thing to hear from one of the earlier church fathers who was close enough to John's teaching to have some insights that might have otherwise been lost over time.

I also have another contradictory position, that I expect things to go from bad to worse, then suddenly just before we go up, things start to look good and everyone begins to relax.

I've been thinking about this ever since 2020 struck. The Bible says Israel survives, even thrives to become something to plunder. It's why I didn't get too frantic about the various worries everyone was spouting from 2020 till the Ukraine got invaded and the media jumped on that bad news.

I think the unsaved who were tempted by Salvation in the bad times, will breathe a sigh of relief, along with the biblically ignorant Christians who deny a Rapture and or think things will finally get better as the church takes dominion of the world (Catholics tried that already with bad results, but the Dominionists want to double down on that idea). Both groups will think all that Rapture talk is done for now. And the unsaved will put off Salvation for another day down the road.

And the world starts to talk about Peace and Safety or Security being possible finally. Good times, really good times ahead.

I know some say this is the unsaved longing for peace and safety, in terrible times, but I think there is an implication they are actually expecting some peace and safety finally. The way Paul contrasts their hopes and statements with the actual destruction when we go up.

And for that to happen, they have to have come thru a bit of a mess first where things were neither peaceful or safe and secure.

I have a thought that might go along with the Gog Magog war breaking out actually because the way Paul speaks in 1 Thess 5:1-3

1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

sounds so like this bit here in Ezek 38: 8-14
8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

10 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.” 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it?

And one of the reasons I think the economic bubble will not completely burst is the need for Israel to have lots to plunder. Not just the oil which may or may not be the hook.

And I'll throw out another idea I'm kicking around in the back of my mind.

What if ISRAEL is at the centre of the world's economic system at the time? Not just oil and gas discoveries, but the epicentre of economic growth and development in the middle of all that peace and security. Who knows, maybe they invent some banking system that works as a crutch to hobble forward into the future for a short time.

So if Israel is a tempting target for Gog and Magog and the gang, it means that Israel at least is doing well financially and that means her trade partners can't be too badly off.

Russia, Turkey, Iran and the others on the other hand seem to be poor. Strong military, but badly off financially. Just like what you'd expect if Iran suddenly lost all the nukes they've spent so much on, and Russia was poor because the Ukraine was tougher than they thought. And Turkey's Erdogan doesn't seem to need any help destroying his country's economy, he's doing that quite well now. Lots of poverty for that bunch.

Of course nothing of that has to happen before the Rapture, but it might have to happen before we see Ezek 38 (if we are still here which I doubt).

That's what's floating around in my head these days watching as the situation over in the Ukraine gets worse and Iran looks more threatening than ever.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I'm in agreement (sounds contradictory but here goes) George thinks I'm an incurable optimist too, and now I'll prove George right.

I think there will be one final (bigger than anything ever felt anywhere anytime in history) economic hit to the world when we go up in the Rapture.

Not that we won't have bad stuff, even big bad stuff, just that I think parts of the economy will continue on to allow that final huge blow that requires a big fix after we are gone. Paving the way for the AC and his rise to the top.

One of the Early Church Fathers agrees with you btw-- I remember posting it in on one of Pete Garcia's article threads that Chris put up--- I can never remember his name off the top but he was about 3 people away from John via Polycarp and Irenaeus. ?Hippolytus???

He said before the Tribulation, before the church was taken up in the Rapture, we would see the 10 kingdoms form or forming, and that was the cue that the Rapture was next however, that destroys the doctrine of Immanency (never can spell that right sorry) but he affirmed we would not, could not see or know the actual Antichrist. But those 10 kingdoms on the other hand will be in sight!

I just always thought it was an interesting thing to hear from one of the earlier church fathers who was close enough to John's teaching to have some insights that might have otherwise been lost over time.

I also have another contradictory position, that I expect things to go from bad to worse, then suddenly just before we go up, things start to look good and everyone begins to relax.

I've been thinking about this ever since 2020 struck. The Bible says Israel survives, even thrives to become something to plunder. It's why I didn't get too frantic about the various worries everyone was spouting from 2020 till the Ukraine got invaded and the media jumped on that bad news.

I think the unsaved who were tempted by Salvation in the bad times, will breathe a sigh of relief, along with the biblically ignorant Christians who deny a Rapture and or think things will finally get better as the church takes dominion of the world (Catholics tried that already with bad results, but the Dominionists want to double down on that idea). Both groups will think all that Rapture talk is done for now. And the unsaved will put off Salvation for another day down the road.

And the world starts to talk about Peace and Safety or Security being possible finally. Good times, really good times ahead.

I know some say this is the unsaved longing for peace and safety, in terrible times, but I think there is an implication they are actually expecting some peace and safety finally. The way Paul contrasts their hopes and statements with the actual destruction when we go up.

And for that to happen, they have to have come thru a bit of a mess first where things were neither peaceful or safe and secure.

I have a thought that might go along with the Gog Magog war breaking out actually because the way Paul speaks in 1 Thess 5:1-3

1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

sounds so like this bit here in Ezek 38: 8-14
8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

10 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land.” 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages will say to you, “Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?”

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it?

And one of the reasons I think the economic bubble will not completely burst is the need for Israel to have lots to plunder. Not just the oil which may or may not be the hook.

And I'll throw out another idea I'm kicking around in the back of my mind.

What if ISRAEL is at the centre of the world's economic system at the time? Not just oil and gas discoveries, but the epicentre of economic growth and development in the middle of all that peace and security. Who knows, maybe they invent some banking system that works as a crutch to hobble forward into the future for a short time.

So if Israel is a tempting target for Gog and Magog and the gang, it means that Israel at least is doing well financially and that means her trade partners can't be too badly off.

Russia, Turkey, Iran and the others on the other hand seem to be poor. Strong military, but badly off financially. Just like what you'd expect if Iran suddenly lost all the nukes they've spent so much on, and Russia was poor because the Ukraine was tougher than they thought. And Turkey's Erdogan doesn't seem to need any help destroying his country's economy, he's doing that quite well now. Lots of poverty for that bunch.

Of course nothing of that has to happen before the Rapture, but it might have to happen before we see Ezek 38 (if we are still here which I doubt).

That's what's floating around in my head these days watching as the situation over in the Ukraine gets worse and Iran looks more threatening than ever.
Love the comment about Erdogan, i got a bit of a chuckle out of that
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Well, I hope you and @Andy C are correct in your thoughts about this as I'd just as soon be gone before the full meltdown. I'm not as optimistic with respect to those thoughts but I don't really have a position, I just figure the Church will see a lot before we're taken out of this mess. I look at Lot as an example, and Noah, and thus sometimes I think we'll see enough craziness that the OWG will be able to establish itself to some extent, divvy up the world and install 10 kings. Since those things happen before the antichrist is revealed, that means it's possible they could come to pass before the Rapture... so if Jesus comes for His Bride close to before The wrath of God befalls the earth, we, the Church could be in for a lot. I say could be as I don't think one idea has more merit than another so long as the Church is gone before the man of perdition is revealed.
The church could be raptured well before the start of the tribulation. This means with the destruction caused by the rapture, the world could come together around global leadership, paving the way for the OWG, and out of which comes the AC - just in time to ride in on the white horse.

We cant know with certainty the precise order of end times events pre tribulation.
 

Epieikes

Well-Known Member
I agree those days of Noah are before the 2nd Coming, not the Rapture. What's "normal" morphs as it has to, as we see everywhere, so you can't really use "normal" to place this pre-rapture.

However... is our world not becoming more and more like the days of Noah even now? I don't think this is a sudden thing that develops just post the judgments. Andy Wood's last Pastor's Point of View #202, he starts in on a list of 14 characteristics of the antediluvian period, which we see mirrored today. I think he only makes it through 6 or 7 of them in the part 1 tho...
JMO, but it seems the "days of Noah" text describe a normalcy better suited to a "whew, we're back to 'normal', finally" (not) status conducive to pre-Rapture. "Pre-2nd coming" reality seems described as all about survival, literally...for believers obviously but non as well. An unpredictable Rapture sets in motion a somewhat-predictable 7-year timeline, with or without a gap, hardly light, frivolous, business-as-usual. JMO. Literal-logical. Hence loving this "Pete."
 

Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
JMO, but it seems the "days of Noah" text describe a normalcy better suited to a "whew, we're back to 'normal', finally" (not) status conducive to pre-Rapture. "Pre-2nd coming" reality seems described as all about survival, literally...for believers obviously but non as well. An unpredictable Rapture sets in motion a somewhat-predictable 7-year timeline, with or without a gap, hardly light, frivolous, business-as-usual. JMO. Literal-logical. Hence loving this "Pete."
I agree. If we look at what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus saying
"21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

I tend to believe prior to the rapture like in the days of Noah after the gospel having been preached , unbelievers just don't believe and aren't going to be paying attention to what's happening but when the rapture happens with the restrainer taken out if the way, complete chaos will begin. Sudden destruction may come from global chaos and the Judgements that start coming upon the earth.
Even today, we just went through a global pandemic, some say we're still in in it, but I noticed that while there was a panic and a lot of fear everywhere, people were still commuting to and from work, people were still shopping. Many acted like there wasn't a crisis happening. Now there a threat of a WW3 and again people are business as usual. It doesn't matter what crisis there's, but it seems like people don't care, they continue acting like everything is normal. This is what it will still be like up until the rapture, then there will be nothing holding back the man of lawlessness and all of the coming judgements.
 
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