The connecting link

Discussion in 'Gog / Magog' started by puddleglum, Oct 20, 2018.

  1. puddleglum

    puddleglum Member

    Chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel describe an invasion of Israel which is stopped by divine intervention. There is disagreement among Bible students about when this invasion will take place. Some think it is a description of the final battle at Armageddon; some think it will take place earlier, perhaps before the beginning of the tribulation. In the Left Behind series it takes place even before the rapture of the church.

    The Bible tells us that at some time in the future there will be an event called the rapture, in which all Christians, living and dead, will be removed from the earth.

    For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 ESV

    At some subsequent time a world leader will make a seven year treaty with Israel which will enable them to resume the system of sacrifices commanded in the Old Testament. This begins a period of time called the Tribulation. Such a treaty would obviously require the agreement of the Muslim countries surrounding Israel because a Muslim shrine now occupies the site of the temple.

    One reason Israel’s enemies don’t unite for an all out attack is Israel’s alliance with the United States. They are afraid that if they go to war with Israel they will end up at war with the US as well.

    The US has many Christians and some of them hold positions of influence. The rapture will probably have such a crippling effect on the country that it might be temporarily incapable of carrying out any kind of military campaign. On the other hand the countries that are Israel’s enemies have few Christians and almost none of them hold influential positions. The rapture will have little or no effect on their military capabilities and they might decide to attack Israel and try to destroy it before the US recovers enough to pose a threat.

    Many Muslims are convinced that God wants them to destroy Israel and the Jews. This belief makes them totally unwilling to consider making any kind of peace with Israel. But what would happen if they attack Israel and are defeated by what is clearly an act of God? The shock of this event might make them question the truth of their beliefs. The final result might be a willingness to abandon their determination to destroy Israel and to agree to a peace treaty.

    Perhaps the invasion described by Ezekiel is a link that connects the rapture and the signing of the seven year treaty. It could be the result of one and the cause of the other.
  2. DanLMP

    DanLMP Well-Known Member

    Assuming the Rapture happens prior to all of the Ezek 38-39 fireworks, which is my current assumption, a lot of Christians will be taken out of the US including what is currently a lot of Christians who are part of Trump's administration (possibly even Trump). This will shift the balance of Left vs Right in the US to more strongly favor the left.

    In other words, after the Rapture in the US all that will be left is the Left.

    As we have been seeing recently even the Democrats have been starting to shift towards not supporting Israel.

    My expectation is that the effect of a Rapture on the US will be a governmental change in Israel support which will end up with the US not helping Israel when Ezek 38-39 starts.

    Also, I expect their to be some period of Marshall Law enacted as a result of the Rapture. Whatever is left of the Admin will want to lock down the US until they figure out what happened.

    Can you also imagine what would happen if the Dems take the House in the midterms and Pelosi is named Speaker?
    If we assume Trump is Christian and goes in the Rapture, and Pence is surely expected to go, that leaves Pelosi next in line for President. :faint2:reaction:runforhills
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2018
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  3. Tall Timbers

    Tall Timbers Imperfect but forgiven

    That's unimaginable... I can't even imagine being here for that. :reactionPresident Pelosi? :runforhills
  4. Andy C

    Andy C Well-Known Member

    If the rpture happens soon, having Pelosi as the President will be the least of all problems for those left behind.
    Suzanne, Kem, Almost Heaven and 12 others like this.
  5. Saved and Waiting

    Saved and Waiting Well-Known Member

    Since the Bride is not appointed to God's wrath, we will be raptured before Ezekiel 38-39. I'm with Jack Kelly and many others that we could see the complete destruction of Damascus in one night and I believe Psalm 83 will be close to the Damascus destruction. The countries that border Israel and attack her in unison are not mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39 and common sense would have them there if they hadn't been pretty much taken out by Israel beforehand. I think the Rapture will devastate the United States and she will no longer be strong enough or even want to help Israel. With all Christians gone and the Holy Spirit who restrains complete evil also gone, America will be in a war within itself. Israel will have to rely on her true God and no one else and her God will fight for her!
    lightofmylife, Salluz, vbf and 9 others like this.
  6. puddleglum

    puddleglum Member

    I had never thought of that possibility.
  7. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    Love this thread, and agree.

    But Pelosi for President???? I just had a lovely thought of one her moments where she garbles all her words and goes in circles of gibberish. You know, like she often does. Only making speeches on Inauguration day. The population then demanding Pelosi decoder rings in order to fully understand her. And Macron explaining that she is like him, far too lofty in brains and ability for the common folk to understand. Pelosi would eat that kind of praise up with a spoon coming from Macron, you know she would.

    Hmmmm thanks. Good chuckle.

  8. ozaprah

    ozaprah Well-Known Member

    There's a few assumptions here that should be discussed.

    First is the idea that the rapture has to happen before Ezekiel 38-39 because we are not appointed to God's wrath.
    As I understand it, the wrath of God is something that happens in the 7 year tribulation. The start of the tribulation is the confirming of the peace agreement by Israel with the Antichrist and the many. It does not start with the Ezekiel 38 war. Therefore it is conceivable for the rapture to occur before Ezk 38, concurrent with it, or even after it, but prior to the start to the Tribulation.

    Second is the Psalms 83 thing. It's not a big issue for me, but I'm of the opinion that this has already occurred as it describes the war of Independence (1948) to a T. None of the neighboring countries to Israel are mentioned in Ezk 38. The scene is already set for Russia / Iran / Turkey, just awaiting a few more players to get their act together. Complicating it with another battle is not needed in my opinion.

    Thirdly, the destruction of Damascus. It may well be a precursor to Ezk 38, or occur as a result of Ezk 38. I'm more in favor of it being as a result of given that Ezk 38 suggests Israel are taken by surprise while yet living in peace and safety. If they have just nuked Damascus then how would it be a surprise to find an invading army on the mountains?

    Which leads to an interesting discussion on the 'mountains of Israel'. It's a common thought that the USA is not involved in the Ezk 38 scenario because the rapture has occurred and therefore all the supporters have been removed and in the chaos the USA is unable to respond. There is a second scenario that is coming into view that to me makes more sense. The Golan heights (Mountains of Israel where the Ezekiel battle is foretold to occur) is still legally Syrian territory according to the UN. John Bolton has recently said that the USA has no plans on the table to change this situation in the future. As such, and invasion from the north into the Golan cannot be considered an invasion into Israel by the USA and therefore no response can be made apart from protest. For further information on this there is an original article from Rhonda Lane at Rapture Ready, which was discussed in more depth by Andy Woods in his most recent Pastor's perspective if you want to listen.
  9. GotGrace

    GotGrace Well-Known Member

    All that will be left is the left - what a cool way to state it!
  10. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    Ozaprah, what an amazing article by Rhonda Lane, I read it last night, and G and I caught up on Andy Woods' pastors perspective this morning. Yes, that made my eyebrows rise. John Bolton's comment to Caroline Glick that states the current legal position of America regarding the Golan Heights, coupled with Russia's recent comments declaring their intent to reclaim the Golan on behalf of their sock puppet in Syria make this VERY interesting and of immediate importance. The Golan IS the mountains, and it is a bone of contention between Syria and Israel, but Israel gave it back at least once already that I remember, and had to promptly retake it, maybe twice. They CAN'T let go of it again. But if Russia (good ol Gog) with the help of Iran and Persia go in to retake it, this could be the Ez 38 on the doorstep of tomorrows news.

    Here is a news article explaining the position of Russia vs Israel in brief terms.

    and the weekly standard has a longer analysis here:

    here is an excerpt:
    "This gets back to Russia’s statement about the Golan Heights. Few latched on to the phrase during the Helsinki summit press conference where Putin said he will take steps “toward creating a lasting peace in compliance with the respective resolutions of security council, for instance the resolution 338.” This brief reference to UN .Security Council Resolution 338 caught the ears of careful observers because it is a resolution from 1973 that revives the land-for-peace formula, originally laid out in Resolution 242 following the 1967 war during which Israel captured the Golan Heights.

    With the Golan theme already established and the Russian effort to fast-forward to an advantageous endgame in Syria, the question becomes, is Putin hoping to play peacemaker between Syria and Israel based on the principle of land-for-peace? Or, asked another way, is Moscow declaring it will not guarantee Iran’s withdrawal from Syria absent a peace agreement that returns the Golan Heights to Assad–the way a mafia boss can’t guarantee one’s safety if its goons aren’t paid off"

    Remember there is OIL (spoil) in the Golan Heights (the mountains of Israel?)
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  11. anath

    anath I Love the Lord

    :woahOh my this makes perfect sense Thanks Ozaprah and Athenasius
    Kem, athenasius, Salluz and 4 others like this.
  12. Almost Heaven

    Almost Heaven Well-Known Member

    Indeed! I am also one who does not believe Psalm 83 is a future prophetic event.God's wrath begins with the tribulation. I don't believe the Gog/Magog war is part of God's wrath.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  13. Saved and Waiting

    Saved and Waiting Well-Known Member

    I believe you are right that the wrath of God is definitely in the 7 year tribulation period but His wrath is very evident, before that, in the mountains of Israel when He destroys all but one-sixth of the invading armies. He has put "a hook" in the jaw of Gog and turned him back around to attack Israel and God Himself destroys them. Gog wanted to "collect" the spoils...riches of Israel's resources. What could put Israel at a place where it feels "safe and secure" ? It is a state approximately the size of New Jersey and it's current surrounding countries hate Her and want to destroy Her and always have. Israel has one of the top, if not the top, defense forces in the world because she is so hated. The biggest reason these surrounding countries have not invaded her from all sides has been their lack of uniting between the different factions in each country and the fact that America would come to Israel's defense if she were attacked by them...IF today's American military wasn't somehow help..(the rapture or internal war)?? Whatever reason, they come against her and she is hurt but is the victor against all those attacking her,finally reclaiming a tremendous amount of land that was given to her by her God to begin with. I believe this will give her the sense of peace and security and she will feel safer than she has for hundreds of years. I don't know who or what destroys Damascus in one day...could be Israel as the Psalm 83 war is escalating or it could be a number of other possibilities but Damascus and the surrounding areas will be taken out. The feeling Israel has with regaining so much territory is one of a sense of security as it would be for any added huge amount of territory will give her that. I believe not much time will pass and here comes Ezekiel 38-39. I personally believe that God's wrath and His return to wholly focusing on Israel, with the Church out of here, will be when He puts the hook in the jaw of Gog. I also believe He is slow to anger but that anger has been building and the haters of Israel would have been destroyed years ago if He didn't love all his Creation and want to give them every chance to be saved. I can understand the differing thoughts of the sequence of events but that's okay...I am eternally grateful that whenever our God's wrath starts, we as Christ's Bride will be spared His wrath. Until then, we are to spread the Gospel and be a source of light and love in this ever darkening and evil world. We are greatly loved!
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  14. Jan51

    Jan51 Well-Known Member

    The reason some think God's wrath is in play is because of:
    Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

    The church is told we are not destined for wrath.
  15. ozaprah

    ozaprah Well-Known Member

    Was it not God's wrath the destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? The wrath talked about in Ezk 38 is directed to the armies on the mountains. It's specific, like Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm not sure we can bank on a rapture timing based on that mention.

    Remember also, Ezk 38-39 isn't just describing a battle, it also covers the 7 months of burying the dead and 7 years of burning of weapons, ending up with the restoration of Israel (which is a end Tribulation event).
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  16. Jan51

    Jan51 Well-Known Member

    Not saying I hold that view, just throwing out that verse which I've heard people use. I really don't know. Yes, there are other mentions of God's wrath as you say, but those are not in the end times. Because Gog/Magog is closely tied to the end times, that particular wrath may (or may not!) be related to the day of wrath.
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  17. ozaprah

    ozaprah Well-Known Member

    My point was I don't think we can be dogmatic about the timing of rapture based on Gog / Magog and any mention of wrath in the passage. People often say because Gog / Magog is God now turning his attention back to Israel that the church must have therefore have been raptured before Ezk 38 takes place. I would counter this with the fact that the chapter before (Ezk 37) is also God turning his attention back to Israel in the Valley of the Dry Bones. We would all agree that it begins by describing the regathering to the land, something that has already happened. Yet the church is still here. God's timing on the rapture will be perfect.

    Anyway, I really wanted to emphasize the thoughts about the mountains of Israel and where the USA stands regarding the Golan, as I think that may be a real game changer in the way we think about Ezk 38.
    Kem, John Romans and athenasius like this.
  18. ozaprah

    ozaprah Well-Known Member

    I watched an interesting press conference from last weekend in Turkey following a meeting between Putin, Erdogan, Macron and Merkel. (Youtube: Erdogan, Putin, Macron, Merkel give statement following Syria summit) All four leaders gave statements and answered questioned. The summary was they are currently planning for the re-establishment of the territorial integrity of Syria. They have proposed that a constitutional committee be formed with the aim towards holding new elections, including proposing a vote for all Syrians in the diaspora. The upshot seems to be France and Germany are keen for Syrian refugees to return to their homeland (go figure) and Turkey are desperate to keep out hundreds of thousands more refugees that would ensue if the Idlib situation blows up. You can imagine if the push for Syrian national integrity goes forward then the Golan takes on increasing importance given the wealth that lies beneath.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  19. athenasius

    athenasius Well-Known Member

    Right as usual Ozaprah! Macron and Merkel just want the results of their welcoming of murder prone "refugees" to go away so they can pretend none of the mess ever really happened. Russia and Turkey are only too glad to accommodate, as it increases their control of Syria and the carving up of it's resources.
  20. Andy C

    Andy C Well-Known Member

    Yes, the church will not face the wrath from God during the Tribulations, but what does this have to do with Ez 38-39? God will destroy those who attempt to attack Israel, but that does not mean the church will be gone first.

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