The 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
The 144,000 of Rev 7 and 14
By Jack Kelley

In Revelation 7:3-8 a group numbering 144,000 is introduced as the servants of our God. They are given the Seal of the Living God in their foreheads to protect them from the judgments coming on the earth against the land, the sea, and the trees.

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

This group is clearly identified as being from among the Jewish population, with 12,000 coming from each of 12 named tribes. There is no good reason to read this passage other than literally. There is too much of a specific nature to warrant a symbolic interpretation (Rev. 7:3-8).

How Many Tribes Are There, Anyway?​

There were originally 12 tribes but after the reunion in Egypt Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph and split his tribe between them. So counting Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph’s sons, there are actually 14 names to choose from. If you want the original 12 count Joseph. If you want to leave out Levi because you’re going to war and Levi is exempt split Joseph in half and call one half Ephraim and the other Manasseh. In Revelation 7 the Lord wanted to avoid mentioning Dan and Ephraim so He included Levi and split Joseph with Manasseh.

Why Dan and Ephraim?​

In 1 Kings 12:12-33 the City of Dan is identified as the location where one of two golden calves was set up for worshiping. The other was in Bethel in the region of Ephraim. Bethel actually became the center of religious worship for the Northern Kingdom before the temple was built in Samaria. Beth-El means house of God. Mind you this all took place nearly 300 years after the escape from Egypt. When they were dedicated, the pagan priest actually quoted the words Aaron spoke at the original introduction of the golden calf at Mt. Sinai, saying “These are your gods, Israel, that brought you up out of Egypt.” Incredible. Once or twice the Lord used the name Ephraim to address all the Northern Kingdom.

The placement of golden calves in these two cities marked the beginning of idol worship in Israel. It was the reason for all the faithful of all the tribes moving south (2 Chron 11:16) and the subsequent destruction of the Northern Kingdom by the Assyrians.

2 Kings 10:29 explains that those calves were still being worshiped in Dan 100 years later. Perhaps this is why the Tribe of Dan is not mentioned at all and Ephraim is only included by inference. (Joseph and Manasseh are included in the list, and of course when you subtract Manasseh from Joseph you’re left with Ephraim.)

So it makes sense to view the 144,000 of Rev. 7 just as they’re described…Messianic Jews called by the Lord to witness to the world after the church is gone. They are the end times fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 43:10, being witnesses for the Lord to the heathen nations of Earth.

Then Who Are These Guys?​

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. “And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless (Rev. 14:1-5).

The group identified in Rev 14:1-5 is substantially different. This group is standing on the Mt. Zion in Heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24) and they have the names of both the Father and the Son written on their foreheads. They are described as having been redeemed from the earth and are before the Throne of God singing a new song, a song only they can sing. (Notice the 24 elders and 4 living creatures are there, too. They only appear around the throne in Heaven.) They are pure and blameless, a phrase used only in reference to the church (Ephes. 5:25-27). They’ve been purchased from among men (Rev. 5:9), and are offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. The phrase “did not defile themselves with women” means they’re virgins, another reference to the church (2 Cor. 11:2). These 144,000 were found to be totally blameless, further evidence that they’re the redeemed in Heaven. No human on Earth is blameless.

A Beautiful Description​

Hebrews 12:22-24 provides a beautiful description of this group. “But you have come to Mt. Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the Church of the Firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”

The similarity is unmistakable. By their location (heaven) and their spiritual state (pure and blameless) they are reminiscent of a group first seen in Rev 5 and described as Kings and Priests. Only one group fits that description…the Church. In their case the number 144,000 is symbolic, a multiple of 12, the number of governmental perfection. They’re a sampling of the redeemed, brought to heaven in the rapture of Rev 4, and presented as the first fruits of the harvest.

As you can see the two groups are not the same. With one their number is specific, in the other it’s symbolic. One group is exclusively from the tribes of Israel, the other is simply “from the Earth”. One group is still in their natural state on earth, the other has been redeemed from the earth and is in heaven. In short they have one similarity but numerous differences that make it impossible for them to be the same.

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-144000-of-rev-7-and-14/
 

Micki

MARANATHA!!
The 144,000 of Rev 7 and 14
By Jack Kelley

In Revelation 7:3-8 a group numbering 144,000 is introduced as the servants of our God. They are given the Seal of the Living God in their foreheads to protect them from the judgments coming on the earth against the land, the sea, and the trees.

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

This group is clearly identified as being from among the Jewish population, with 12,000 coming from each of 12 named tribes. There is no good reason to read this passage other than literally. There is too much of a specific nature to warrant a symbolic interpretation (Rev. 7:3-8).

How Many Tribes Are There, Anyway?​

There were originally 12 tribes but after the reunion in Egypt Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph and split his tribe between them. So counting Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph’s sons, there are actually 14 names to choose from. If you want the original 12 count Joseph. If you want to leave out Levi because you’re going to war and Levi is exempt split Joseph in half and call one half Ephraim and the other Manasseh. In Revelation 7 the Lord wanted to avoid mentioning Dan and Ephraim so He included Levi and split Joseph with Manasseh.

Why Dan and Ephraim?​

In 1 Kings 12:12-33 the City of Dan is identified as the location where one of two golden calves was set up for worshiping. The other was in Bethel in the region of Ephraim. Bethel actually became the center of religious worship for the Northern Kingdom before the temple was built in Samaria. Beth-El means house of God. Mind you this all took place nearly 300 years after the escape from Egypt. When they were dedicated, the pagan priest actually quoted the words Aaron spoke at the original introduction of the golden calf at Mt. Sinai, saying “These are your gods, Israel, that brought you up out of Egypt.” Incredible. Once or twice the Lord used the name Ephraim to address all the Northern Kingdom.

The placement of golden calves in these two cities marked the beginning of idol worship in Israel. It was the reason for all the faithful of all the tribes moving south (2 Chron 11:16) and the subsequent destruction of the Northern Kingdom by the Assyrians.

2 Kings 10:29 explains that those calves were still being worshiped in Dan 100 years later. Perhaps this is why the Tribe of Dan is not mentioned at all and Ephraim is only included by inference. (Joseph and Manasseh are included in the list, and of course when you subtract Manasseh from Joseph you’re left with Ephraim.)

So it makes sense to view the 144,000 of Rev. 7 just as they’re described…Messianic Jews called by the Lord to witness to the world after the church is gone. They are the end times fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 43:10, being witnesses for the Lord to the heathen nations of Earth.

Then Who Are These Guys?​

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. “And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless (Rev. 14:1-5).

The group identified in Rev 14:1-5 is substantially different. This group is standing on the Mt. Zion in Heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24) and they have the names of both the Father and the Son written on their foreheads. They are described as having been redeemed from the earth and are before the Throne of God singing a new song, a song only they can sing. (Notice the 24 elders and 4 living creatures are there, too. They only appear around the throne in Heaven.) They are pure and blameless, a phrase used only in reference to the church (Ephes. 5:25-27). They’ve been purchased from among men (Rev. 5:9), and are offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. The phrase “did not defile themselves with women” means they’re virgins, another reference to the church (2 Cor. 11:2). These 144,000 were found to be totally blameless, further evidence that they’re the redeemed in Heaven. No human on Earth is blameless.

A Beautiful Description​

Hebrews 12:22-24 provides a beautiful description of this group. “But you have come to Mt. Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the Church of the Firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”

The similarity is unmistakable. By their location (heaven) and their spiritual state (pure and blameless) they are reminiscent of a group first seen in Rev 5 and described as Kings and Priests. Only one group fits that description…the Church. In their case the number 144,000 is symbolic, a multiple of 12, the number of governmental perfection. They’re a sampling of the redeemed, brought to heaven in the rapture of Rev 4, and presented as the first fruits of the harvest.

As you can see the two groups are not the same. With one their number is specific, in the other it’s symbolic. One group is exclusively from the tribes of Israel, the other is simply “from the Earth”. One group is still in their natural state on earth, the other has been redeemed from the earth and is in heaven. In short they have one similarity but numerous differences that make it impossible for them to be the same.

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-144000-of-rev-7-and-14/
Sorry Jack but when scripture mentions such a specific number I believe it means that specific number.
 

Katie8758

Well-Known Member
"These are those that did not defile themselves with women"

This is what throws me. I know the author said this describes the church because they are referred to as virgins, but how can that one sentence be taken anything other than literally if the rest of the paragraph/chapter is to be taken literally?

Admittedly though, when i read that sentence my first thought was "SWEET!! Got that qualification nailed....not once have i EVER slept with a woman and nor would i want to!" Lolz!!
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
"These are those that did not defile themselves with women"

This is what throws me. I know the author said this describes the church because they are referred to as virgins, but how can that one sentence be taken anything other than literally if the rest of the paragraph/chapter is to be taken literally?

Admittedly though, when i read that sentence my first thought was "SWEET!! Got that qualification nailed....not once have i EVER slept with a woman and nor would i want to!" Lolz!!

I'd wager it hinges on the word "defile." There's absolutely nothing defiling about sex within the confines of marriage. And even for those who are saved but used to be even characterized by their sexual sin, 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." God doesn't view us as having sinned at all, let alone view us as defiled.

And I think many times in Revelation the event is literal, but there is symbolism involved in its description. There will be a literal person known as the antichrist, but he will not literally be a little horn that speaks. The false prophet, although literal, will not literally have horns like a lamb.

Question if these are the church, who are the elders, they aren't the same.

I've read that the Elder role might be a position that is cycled through because of some basis in the OT priesthood. You could be an Elder one week, and I could the next, something like that. And with the 144,000 representing the first fruits of the harvest, both groups could be actual groups while still representing the Church as a whole.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Question if these are the church, who are the elders, they aren't the same.

The 24 Elders
By Jack Kelley

Question: Who are the 24 elders in Revelation 4:4 wearing white raiment with crowns on their heads?

Answer: These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, so their work is done. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing the Greek “stephanos” crown, so they’re victors, overcomers. They’re called Elders, a title associated more with Christianity than Judaism. I think we have a pretty strong case for them representing the Church.

When King David realized that the number of priests in Israel was too large for effective service in the Tabernacle, he separated them into 24 rotating groups. These smaller groups were sufficient to carry out the necessary duties and represented the entire priesthood while on duty. 24 is a multiple of 12, a number that represents government.

I think God has done the same thing and in Revelation 4 these 24 elders represent the newly raptured Church beginning our rule and reign with Christ. All the Old Testament views of the Throne of God show only one throne with the exception of Daniel 7:9 which is an end times view, so these elders can’t be some special order of angelic or human rulers in place from the beginning. They appear a total of 12 times throughout the Book of Revelation, and only there, and are always in Heaven.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-24-elders/
 

GotGrace

Well-Known Member
The 144,000 of Rev 7 and 14
By Jack Kelley

In Revelation 7:3-8 a group numbering 144,000 is introduced as the servants of our God. They are given the Seal of the Living God in their foreheads to protect them from the judgments coming on the earth against the land, the sea, and the trees.

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

This group is clearly identified as being from among the Jewish population, with 12,000 coming from each of 12 named tribes. There is no good reason to read this passage other than literally. There is too much of a specific nature to warrant a symbolic interpretation (Rev. 7:3-8).

How Many Tribes Are There, Anyway?​

There were originally 12 tribes but after the reunion in Egypt Jacob adopted the two sons of Joseph and split his tribe between them. So counting Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph’s sons, there are actually 14 names to choose from. If you want the original 12 count Joseph. If you want to leave out Levi because you’re going to war and Levi is exempt split Joseph in half and call one half Ephraim and the other Manasseh. In Revelation 7 the Lord wanted to avoid mentioning Dan and Ephraim so He included Levi and split Joseph with Manasseh.

Why Dan and Ephraim?​

In 1 Kings 12:12-33 the City of Dan is identified as the location where one of two golden calves was set up for worshiping. The other was in Bethel in the region of Ephraim. Bethel actually became the center of religious worship for the Northern Kingdom before the temple was built in Samaria. Beth-El means house of God. Mind you this all took place nearly 300 years after the escape from Egypt. When they were dedicated, the pagan priest actually quoted the words Aaron spoke at the original introduction of the golden calf at Mt. Sinai, saying “These are your gods, Israel, that brought you up out of Egypt.” Incredible. Once or twice the Lord used the name Ephraim to address all the Northern Kingdom.

The placement of golden calves in these two cities marked the beginning of idol worship in Israel. It was the reason for all the faithful of all the tribes moving south (2 Chron 11:16) and the subsequent destruction of the Northern Kingdom by the Assyrians.

2 Kings 10:29 explains that those calves were still being worshiped in Dan 100 years later. Perhaps this is why the Tribe of Dan is not mentioned at all and Ephraim is only included by inference. (Joseph and Manasseh are included in the list, and of course when you subtract Manasseh from Joseph you’re left with Ephraim.)

So it makes sense to view the 144,000 of Rev. 7 just as they’re described…Messianic Jews called by the Lord to witness to the world after the church is gone. They are the end times fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 43:10, being witnesses for the Lord to the heathen nations of Earth.

Then Who Are These Guys?​

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. “And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless (Rev. 14:1-5).

The group identified in Rev 14:1-5 is substantially different. This group is standing on the Mt. Zion in Heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24) and they have the names of both the Father and the Son written on their foreheads. They are described as having been redeemed from the earth and are before the Throne of God singing a new song, a song only they can sing. (Notice the 24 elders and 4 living creatures are there, too. They only appear around the throne in Heaven.) They are pure and blameless, a phrase used only in reference to the church (Ephes. 5:25-27). They’ve been purchased from among men (Rev. 5:9), and are offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. The phrase “did not defile themselves with women” means they’re virgins, another reference to the church (2 Cor. 11:2). These 144,000 were found to be totally blameless, further evidence that they’re the redeemed in Heaven. No human on Earth is blameless.

A Beautiful Description​

Hebrews 12:22-24 provides a beautiful description of this group. “But you have come to Mt. Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the Church of the Firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”

The similarity is unmistakable. By their location (heaven) and their spiritual state (pure and blameless) they are reminiscent of a group first seen in Rev 5 and described as Kings and Priests. Only one group fits that description…the Church. In their case the number 144,000 is symbolic, a multiple of 12, the number of governmental perfection. They’re a sampling of the redeemed, brought to heaven in the rapture of Rev 4, and presented as the first fruits of the harvest.

As you can see the two groups are not the same. With one their number is specific, in the other it’s symbolic. One group is exclusively from the tribes of Israel, the other is simply “from the Earth”. One group is still in their natural state on earth, the other has been redeemed from the earth and is in heaven. In short they have one similarity but numerous differences that make it impossible for them to be the same.

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-144000-of-rev-7-and-14/
I think this is a great thought-provoking article. Oh the wonders and joys of heaven.

Lord could we go be with you today? We are all ready to be beamed up.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
The 24 Elders
By Jack Kelley

Question: Who are the 24 elders in Revelation 4:4 wearing white raiment with crowns on their heads?

Answer: These 24 elders confuse some people, but they shouldn’t. Their appearance gives them away. They have thrones, so they’re rulers. They surround the Throne of God, so they’re assisting Him. They’re seated, so their work is done. They’re dressed in white, so they’re righteous. They’re wearing the Greek “stephanos” crown, so they’re victors, overcomers. They’re called Elders, a title associated more with Christianity than Judaism. I think we have a pretty strong case for them representing the Church.

When King David realized that the number of priests in Israel was too large for effective service in the Tabernacle, he separated them into 24 rotating groups. These smaller groups were sufficient to carry out the necessary duties and represented the entire priesthood while on duty. 24 is a multiple of 12, a number that represents government.

I think God has done the same thing and in Revelation 4 these 24 elders represent the newly raptured Church beginning our rule and reign with Christ. All the Old Testament views of the Throne of God show only one throne with the exception of Daniel 7:9 which is an end times view, so these elders can’t be some special order of angelic or human rulers in place from the beginning. They appear a total of 12 times throughout the Book of Revelation, and only there, and are always in Heaven.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-24-elders/
I'd wager it hinges on the word "defile." There's absolutely nothing defiling about sex within the confines of marriage. And even for those who are saved but used to be even characterized by their sexual sin, 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." God doesn't view us as having sinned at all, let alone view us as defiled.

And I think many times in Revelation the event is literal, but there is symbolism involved in its description. There will be a literal person known as the antichrist, but he will not literally be a little horn that speaks. The false prophet, although literal, will not literally have horns like a lamb.



I've read that the Elder role might be a position that is cycled through because of some basis in the OT priesthood. You could be an Elder one week, and I could the next, something like that. And with the 144,000 representing the first fruits of the harvest, both groups could be actual groups while still representing the Church as a whole.
Thanks salluz, food for thought, chris I believe Jack is contradicting himself rev. 14 v 3 suggests they are different groups, so am wondering if these are the tribulation saints, virgins because of the one world religion and deception that will be taking place, also they would fit the bill because only they would know the song sung. Like I said food for thought.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks salluz, food for thought, chris I believe Jack is contradicting himself rev. 14 v 3 suggests they are different groups, so am wondering if these are the tribulation saints, virgins because of the one world religion and deception that will be taking place, also they would fit the bill because only they would know the song sung. Like I said food for thought.

Yeah, there seems to be some different views on this. Here's some thoughts from Jack Kinsella and Dr. Reagan:

https://www.raptureforums.com/jack-kinsella/even-the-numbers-bear-witness/

and...

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-tribulation-the-24-elders-and-the-144000/

Dr. Reagan talks about Dr. Tim LaHaye thinking along the lines of Jack Kelley here, so there seems to be some different views on who they are.

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-mysterious-144000/

I can only guess there are somethings we will just have to wait and see on? :idunno
 
Last edited:

paul289

Well-Known Member
Yeah, there seems to be some different views on this. Here's some thoughts from Jack Kinsella and Dr. Reagan:

https://www.raptureforums.com/jack-kinsella/even-the-numbers-bear-witness/

and...

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-tribulation-the-24-elders-and-the-144000/

Dr. Reagan talks about Dr. Tim LaHaye thinking along the lines of Jack Kelley here, so there seems to be some different views on who they are.

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-mysterious-144000/

I can only guess there are somethings we will just have to wait and see on? :idunno
Hmm. I'm not sure about the interpretations presented in the first link. For instance, Kinsella seems to say that only the 144,000 are saved, even though there are untold multitudes who are brought out of the Tribulation from every tribe, tongue, and nation immediately after the 144,000 are sealed. Tim Moore in your second link for instance says that the 144,000 are evangelists, and I believe that the multitudes that appear before the throne bear witness to that, as they are introduced just after the 144,000.

I'm definitely curious about the location and timing of the Rev 14 mention of the 144,000. It says Mt. Zion, before the Lamb. A plain reading to me says that this is in Jerusalem on Earth with Jesus, which would have to be post-Trib. A modified reading would be that they're in Jerusalem, and their prayers go up before Jesus in heaven, or that Jesus' spirit is among them. Or perhaps Jesus is in their midst bodily, but not as a conqueror, but naturally I have my doubts about that. I'm hesitant to say that Mt. Zion is in heaven because there's no mention or implication besides the presence of Jesus that this Zion is different from the well known one in Jerusalem. So then we have to ask how orderly Revelation is. Is it all strictly chronological, or is there some foreshadowing or jumping around?

Whatever the correct interpretation, the 144,000 are definitely Jews because if I wanted to make it clear that they were ethnic Jews, I don't think I could have done any better than Rev 7 did.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Hmm. I'm not sure about the interpretations presented in the first link. For instance, Kinsella seems to say that only the 144,000 are saved, even though there are untold multitudes who are brought out of the Tribulation from every tribe, tongue, and nation immediately after the 144,000 are sealed. Tim Moore in your second link for instance says that the 144,000 are evangelists, and I believe that the multitudes that appear before the throne bear witness to that, as they are introduced just after the 144,000.

I'm definitely curious about the location and timing of the Rev 14 mention of the 144,000. It says Mt. Zion, before the Lamb. A plain reading to me says that this is in Jerusalem on Earth with Jesus, which would have to be post-Trib. A modified reading would be that they're in Jerusalem, and their prayers go up before Jesus in heaven, or that Jesus' spirit is among them. Or perhaps Jesus is in their midst bodily, but not as a conqueror, but naturally I have my doubts about that. I'm hesitant to say that Mt. Zion is in heaven because there's no mention or implication besides the presence of Jesus that this Zion is different from the well known one in Jerusalem. So then we have to ask how orderly Revelation is. Is it all strictly chronological, or is there some foreshadowing or jumping around?

Whatever the correct interpretation, the 144,000 are definitely Jews because if I wanted to make it clear that they were ethnic Jews, I don't think I could have done any better than Rev 7 did.

The third link touches on the Mt. Zion thing and why LaHaye thought that. I personally don't know. :idunno Somethings I guess we will have to wait and see on.
 
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