Synagogue of Satan

[Andiamo]

goody!!! I wake up and open iPad to see Margery has answered my questions!
Need coffee before reading.

 

[Andiamo]

NOW-- the Philadelphia church is being persecuted within the church.

by those who have a passionate rage against the doctrine of the Rapture and those who believe it.
by those who detest other Christians who take the Bible more literally than they do.
by those who detest Christians who take Bible prophecy as literal.
by those who hate other Christians who believe in a Genesis creation in 6 days
by those who oppose a global flood of Noah
by those who hate a Pre Trib Rapture

Thanks so much...this is really good. And I feel very concerned for those mentioned above....more than I did before.

 

[sawas]

Replacement Theology-- those who say the church is Israel, and has taken her place. That is one type of people who say they are Jews but are not.

That's long been a prime candidate in my thinking.

 

[athenasius]

And why would the church of Philadelphia be concerned with "Jews" that aren't even Jews—especially since we are raptured before the tribulation?

Andiamo, so sorry I packed it in, due to fatigue on Friday. I'm still struggling with it (thyroid got taken out, the drs are figuring out what my maintenance dose of replacement should be. I was "too high" according to the lab results so I'm coping with the lower dose and it's catching up to me badly)

I know I left thoughts dangling above, didn't write them out well so if I've left confusion, just quote me here and I'll get back to it eventually Lord willing and the energy level and brain fog allow.

OK onto your final question.

So this hits on the very thing that makes these church letters appropriate down thru the ages till the Rapture and even into the Tribulation (Laodicea is a church where Jesus is on the OUTSIDE, knocking to be let in, and is NOT promised to be spared from the Tribulation as Philadelphia gets promised).

The final era of the church is considered to be Thyatira (the Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient churches--the Maronites in Lebanon, etc) while the Sardis church has a lot of characteristics of the Reformation churches.

The Martyr church of Smyrna is very very much part of today in Iran, China, every Muslim country around the globe, every totalitarian regime, from North Korea to Cuba. They don't receive a word of criticism from our Lord, nor does Philadelphia. Ephesus is the early church before the serious persecutions of Smyrna began. They overlap much like we see with the final 2 as well. Philadelphia and Laodicea overlap at the end while Ephesus and Smyrna overlap at the beginning of the church age. Pergamum is marriage to the world system. The beginnings of the Papal monstrosity that became the Catholic Church.

back to Philly:
Philadelphia is considered to be the missionary sending church but the age of missions is also a close match to the rediscovery of the dispensational theology and the literal interpretation of prophecy that had such an impact on the fundamentalist, evangelical churches including the conservative charismatic churches like the Pentecostals. (Don't confuse the United Pentecostals with them though, those are "oneness" and they are anti Trinitarian)

Now what makes a mission sending church and one that has a clear understanding of prophecy? It will give you an insight into one of the characteristics of Philadelphia

I want you to look at what Jesus says about Philadelphia when He mentions HIS WORD. It's best in the KJV-- because it is very clear. This is a trademark if you will of Philadelphia. ATTENTION TO THE WORD OF GOD! It was in fact attention to the Bible that got William Carey going into mission work and got Darby looking at prophecy literally. Missions, and Dispensational Theology that leads to a clear understanding of the Bible from prophecy to where the Jews and the Church stand especially as the Tribulation draws near.

Revelation 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

############

So WHY would Philadelphia be concerned?

Because most of the other church groups-- Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea-- have misinterpreted the Word of God when it comes to understanding prophecy. They have decided that the Church has replaced Israel. So prophecy for them is allegorical-- so they make it mean whatever they like OR it is REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

This weekend I listened to 2 separate preachers who BOTH brought up the fact that when Israel is replaced by the church, you have to do something with the Tribulation.

The Tribulation is meant for the salvation of the Jewish nation, in which Israel comes to full knowledge of and acceptance of Jesus her Messiah. God is dealing with Israel NOT the church in this period of time.

But if you replace Israel WITH THE CHURCH you end up needing to put the church in the Tribulation. Which is where a lot of Replacement Theologians go. (not all by any means but a lot)

so at this end of the church age, just before the Rapture we actually SHOULD see a resurgence in the kind of theology where churches that aren't dividing Scripture accurately declare they are the Jews. They forget that God keeps His promises. If He doesn't keep His promise to the Jew, He won't keep it with you either, because either He does keep His promises or He doesn't.

Replacement theology has God giving up on Israel in a fit of temper and grabbing the church in replacement.

OF COURSE this is wrong --see Paul's letter to the Romans 11 -- fitting because that's where the Roman Catholic church emerged and still is headquartered to this day.

In fact as expected there is a lot of anger directed at those of us who believe in dispensational theology and the pre trib Rapture. One of the features of dispensational theology is that it makes a distinction between Israel and the Church and applies that to prophecy -- rightly dividing the Word.

There are many other wonderful aspects of these letters to the churches but if you can remember this-- they have 3 applications:

1: directly to the churches at the time John wrote Revelation. 96 AD

2: to the church overall thru the ages, with application for each Christian in differing circumstance from the beginnings of their walk in Christ-- becoming a little jaded, losing their first love like Ephesus, enduring some persecution being encouraged by the letter to Smyrna , Pergamos stands for compromise with the world, a common concern. Thyatira reminds us NOT to get mixed up with false prophets and their theology, while Sardis reminds us not to quit half way, Philadelphia reminds us that even if we have but a little strength, it is Christ's strength we lean on as we perservere to the end. Laodicea should frighten us out of any tendency to be self sufficient and self satisfied.

3: a prophetic outline of the Things which are. The Church age. This is not something everyone agrees with but there is a striking parallel between the various churches and the church age as a whole.

I hope this helps
Love
M

 

[Andiamo]

Andiamo, so sorry I packed it in, due to fatigue on Friday. I'm still struggling with it (thyroid got taken out, the drs are figuring out what my maintenance dose of replacement should be. I was "too high" according to the lab results so I'm coping with the lower dose and it's catching up to me badly)

I know I left thoughts dangling above, didn't write them out well so if I've left confusion, just quote me here and I'll get back to it eventually Lord willing and the energy level and brain fog allow.

OK onto your final question.

So this hits on the very thing that makes these church letters appropriate down thru the ages till the Rapture and even into the Tribulation (Laodicea is a church where Jesus is on the OUTSIDE, knocking to be let in, and is NOT promised to be spared from the Tribulation as Philadelphia gets promised).

The final era of the church is considered to be Thyatira (the Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient churches--the Maronites in Lebanon, etc) while the Sardis church has a lot of characteristics of the Reformation churches.

The Martyr church of Smyrna is very very much part of today in Iran, China, every Muslim country around the globe, every totalitarian regime, from North Korea to Cuba. They don't receive a word of criticism from our Lord, nor does Philadelphia. Ephesus is the early church before the serious persecutions of Smyrna began. They overlap much like we see with the final 2 as well. Philadelphia and Laodicea overlap at the end while Ephesus and Smyrna overlap at the beginning of the church age. Pergamum is marriage to the world system. The beginnings of the Papal monstrosity that became the Catholic Church.

back to Philly:
Philadelphia is considered to be the missionary sending church but the age of missions is also a close match to the rediscovery of the dispensational theology and the literal interpretation of prophecy that had such an impact on the fundamentalist, evangelical churches including the conservative charismatic churches like the Pentecostals. (Don't confuse the United Pentecostals with them though, those are "oneness" and they are anti Trinitarian)

Now what makes a mission sending church and one that has a clear understanding of prophecy? It will give you an insight into one of the characteristics of Philadelphia

I want you to look at what Jesus says about Philadelphia when He mentions HIS WORD. It's best in the KJV-- because it is very clear. This is a trademark if you will of Philadelphia. ATTENTION TO THE WORD OF GOD! It was in fact attention to the Bible that got William Carey going into mission work and got Darby looking at prophecy literally. Missions, and Dispensational Theology that leads to a clear understanding of the Bible from prophecy to where the Jews and the Church stand especially as the Tribulation draws near.

Revelation 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

############

So WHY would Philadelphia be concerned?

Because most of the other church groups-- Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea-- have misinterpreted the Word of God when it comes to understanding prophecy. They have decided that the Church has replaced Israel. So prophecy for them is allegorical-- so they make it mean whatever they like OR it is REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

This weekend I listened to 2 separate preachers who BOTH brought up the fact that when Israel is replaced by the church, you have to do something with the Tribulation.

The Tribulation is meant for the salvation of the Jewish nation, in which Israel comes to full knowledge of and acceptance of Jesus her Messiah. God is dealing with Israel NOT the church in this period of time.

But if you replace Israel WITH THE CHURCH you end up needing to put the church in the Tribulation. Which is where a lot of Replacement Theologians go. (not all by any means but a lot)

so at this end of the church age, just before the Rapture we actually SHOULD see a resurgence in the kind of theology where churches that aren't dividing Scripture accurately declare they are the Jews. They forget that God keeps His promises. If He doesn't keep His promise to the Jew, He won't keep it with you either, because either He does keep His promises or He doesn't.

Replacement theology has God giving up on Israel in a fit of temper and grabbing the church in replacement.

OF COURSE this is wrong --see Paul's letter to the Romans 11 -- fitting because that's where the Roman Catholic church emerged and still is headquartered to this day.

In fact as expected there is a lot of anger directed at those of us who believe in dispensational theology and the pre trib Rapture. One of the features of dispensational theology is that it makes a distinction between Israel and the Church and applies that to prophecy -- rightly dividing the Word.

There are many other wonderful aspects of these letters to the churches but if you can remember this-- they have 3 applications:

1: directly to the churches at the time John wrote Revelation. 96 AD

2: to the church overall thru the ages, with application for each Christian in differing circumstance from the beginnings of their walk in Christ-- becoming a little jaded, losing their first love like Ephesus, enduring some persecution being encouraged by the letter to Smyrna , Pergamos stands for compromise with the world, a common concern. Thyatira reminds us NOT to get mixed up with false prophets and their theology, while Sardis reminds us not to quit half way, Philadelphia reminds us that even if we have but a little strength, it is Christ's strength we lean on as we perservere to the end. Laodicea should frighten us out of any tendency to be self sufficient and self satisfied.

3: a prophetic outline of the Things which are. The Church age. This is not something everyone agrees with but there is a striking parallel between the various churches and the church age as a whole.

I hope this helps
Love
M

You are so kind to respond to my questions when you aren't feeling well. God bless you!
Your whole post just rang so true the whole time I was reading it.
Because the replacement theology is so prevalent now, in light of God's word to Philadelphia, This is yet one more indication of how we are indeed very, very close to the rapture.

(Sorry this got so long, and don't feel like you have to reply!)

I have a long time friend who is absolutely definitely a born again Christian, as evidenced by his character, his expressed faith and his walk. About five years ago, a man came to his church and taught a class in a small building that you had to sign up for and so only a few were in attendance Apparently, the leadership did not oversee this very well.....because my friend left that class no longer believing the rapture and a (partial) Preterist.
I was shocked, because this friend is much older in the Lord and used to minister to me as a newish believer.

I have had long discussions with my friend, who is very biblically knowledgable, quite excellent at debate and extremely intelligent....and I think that intelligence was his downfall concerning this. The books and websites I checked out all have a very intellectual vibe, which I'm sure he was drawn to and made him feel challenged. I Found the websites extremely confusing and told him that, frankly.

I just don't understand how he would accept this view. Unless I hold to dispensations, the entire structure of the Bible weakens and any wolf can enter in through one of those holes with false teaching. In fact, Revelation and other books that used to confuse me so that I didn't even want to read them, became so much more understandable once I knew that the key is context and whom it was written to/about.
These two reasons are how I know that the dispensations are the correct way to divide the word!
Why would God want me to be more confused, more susceptible to false teaching and have less faith in the integrity of the Word of God?

And how someone becomes a partial preterist baffles me even more, because basically that means many verses are up for grabs as to whether or not they fall under fulfilled prophecy (according to them) .....which to me is a huge red flag, the same huge red flag we see with cults and apostate theology because so many verses are up for one's own personal interpretation. I don't understand why they can't see that red flag.

And Ironically, his favorite book of the Bible is Romans! Now, when I read Romans Chapter 11, I just can't believe my friend doesn't come to the same conclusion that I do: Israel is the tree, we are grafted in.......and not only should we not be high minded regarding them, but their status with God is CLEARLY none of our business! Our duty is to show mercy and thank God for them....because we are darn blessed that they were blinded for our sake; And God's mysterious, divine plan WILL be carried out for His beloved people, even though we won't understand it all until Glory.

So back to the letters, I love how you explained the 3 applications, and I agree. I can almost hear the echo of each one across the centuries, teaching and convicting us. Awesome!
And when it comes to Philadelphia, in light of the downright persecution we pre-trib rapture-believers are experiencing, I can see how this all fits with the Replacement theology folks being of the Synagogue of Satan....but part of me still doesn't want to accept this is true. Are they not also kept from the hour of temptation? I guess it boils down to whether that person is actually saved but fell into error, or was never saved to begin with.
In light of this, Along with the utter hate and meanness being spewed at us, I'm guessing it's the latter.

 

[athenasius]

I can see how this all fits with the Replacement theology folks being of the Synagogue of Satan....but part of me still doesn't want to accept this is true. Are they not also kept from the hour of temptation? I guess it boils down to whether that person is actually saved but fell into error, or was never saved to begin with.
In light of this, Along with the utter hate and meanness being spewed at us, I'm guessing it's the latter.

Oh no, some, ---perhaps even many --are saved. Just crabby.

There is an odd thing that I've noticed over the years that Christians who aren't walking in the Lord, come under conviction of the Holy Spirit and they either melt like wax or they get all angry and attack the messenger (the christian who accidentally said the thing that the Holy Spirit used to remind them of something)

The ones who are NOT kept from the hour are the unsaved "shell" of the various churches.

There are still people in every church who love the Lord and go when His trumpet sounds in the Rapture.

But the buildings, the organizations made up of any amount of unsaved members, the unsaved leaders, and those of the flock unsaved, the "shell" passes into the Tribulation.

Not everyone that sits in a pew at the best most Bible believing church ever is a Christian sadly.

And some will wake up the day after the Rapture and be part of the group of believers that come out of the Tribulation (with their heads if the Lord preserves them to the end to repopulate the earth in the Millennial Reign, but mostly they lose their lives, many beheaded)

The apostate "church" at the end of the age, carries over into the Tribulation to help the other remainders and left behinds fuse with all other religions to form the new One World Religion.

We see that coming religion forming as more and more ties grow between the Pope, and the different church groups as well as the Muslims and other religions.

As each "christian" organization cuts it's ties to the Bible and embraces the "new way of looking at things" that the apostate church is drawn to, we see it forming. A shadow of the Tribulation, stretches back towards this side of it.

And the further they wander from the Bible, the more their hatred grows against those who convict them of their sin.

It's rooted in terror that we are right. Or anger that they can't treat Christianity like Burger King and have it their way.

The HATRED the unsaved (but say and think they are Christians) show us now-- will turn to MURDER in the Tribulation. The rage and fury that we see now, will transform into something far more violent and deadly towards anyone who dares believe in Jesus Christ

 

[Andiamo]

And the further they wander from the Bible, the more their hatred grows against those who convict them of their sin.

It's rooted in terror that we are right. Or anger that they can't treat Christianity like Burger King and have it their way.

Wow that's puts a different light on them for me. Terror, or anger (defensiveness/denial). Sad.
Well, apparently these divisions and are all part of God's plan. Sifting, and bringing to repentance.

 

[cavalier973]

Israel is the tree, we are grafted in.......

Is Israel the tree?

Reading Romans 11, it looks like Israel is represented as the "natural branches" that were broken off, and Gentiles were branches from a wild olive tree that were grafted into the cultivated olive tree.

Maybe "branches" signifies individual believers, and the olive tree is Israel, but it makes more sense to me that the olive tree is Jesus, or the promised Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven, or something.

Because of national Israel's unbelief, it was cut off, temporarily, and will be grafted back in. Meanwhile, believing gentiles--the "wild branches"--are being grafted in.

By the way, "Wild Branches" would make a good name for a contemporary Christian band.

 

[athenasius]

Is Israel the tree?

Reading Romans 11, it looks like Israel is represented as the "natural branches" that were broken off, and Gentiles were branches from a wild olive tree that were grafted into the cultivated olive tree.

Maybe "branches" signifies individual believers, and the olive tree is Israel, but it makes more sense to me that the olive tree is Jesus, or the promised Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven, or something.

Because of national Israel's unbelief, it was cut off, temporarily, and will be grafted back in. Meanwhile, believing gentiles--the "wild branches"--are being grafted in.

By the way, "Wild Branches" would make a good name for a contemporary Christian band.

You are quite right.

 

[cshere]

I'm still struggling with it (thyroid got taken out, the drs are figuring out what my maintenance dose of replacement should be. I was "too high" according to the lab results so I'm coping with the lower dose and it's catching up to me badly)

Hope and praying you are getting adjusted....just hate to hear you are having such difficulties. Thanks for expending your energy on this forum....you are so valued in our hearts!

 

[cshere]

Andiamo, so sorry I packed it in, due to fatigue on Friday. I'm still struggling with it (thyroid got taken out, the drs are figuring out what my maintenance dose of replacement should be. I was "too high" according to the lab results so I'm coping with the lower dose and it's catching up to me badly)

I know I left thoughts dangling above, didn't write them out well so if I've left confusion, just quote me here and I'll get back to it eventually Lord willing and the energy level and brain fog allow.

OK onto your final question.

So this hits on the very thing that makes these church letters appropriate down thru the ages till the Rapture and even into the Tribulation (Laodicea is a church where Jesus is on the OUTSIDE, knocking to be let in, and is NOT promised to be spared from the Tribulation as Philadelphia gets promised).

The final era of the church is considered to be Thyatira (the Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient churches--the Maronites in Lebanon, etc) while the Sardis church has a lot of characteristics of the Reformation churches.

The Martyr church of Smyrna is very very much part of today in Iran, China, every Muslim country around the globe, every totalitarian regime, from North Korea to Cuba. They don't receive a word of criticism from our Lord, nor does Philadelphia. Ephesus is the early church before the serious persecutions of Smyrna began. They overlap much like we see with the final 2 as well. Philadelphia and Laodicea overlap at the end while Ephesus and Smyrna overlap at the beginning of the church age. Pergamum is marriage to the world system. The beginnings of the Papal monstrosity that became the Catholic Church.

back to Philly:
Philadelphia is considered to be the missionary sending church but the age of missions is also a close match to the rediscovery of the dispensational theology and the literal interpretation of prophecy that had such an impact on the fundamentalist, evangelical churches including the conservative charismatic churches like the Pentecostals. (Don't confuse the United Pentecostals with them though, those are "oneness" and they are anti Trinitarian)

Now what makes a mission sending church and one that has a clear understanding of prophecy? It will give you an insight into one of the characteristics of Philadelphia

I want you to look at what Jesus says about Philadelphia when He mentions HIS WORD. It's best in the KJV-- because it is very clear. This is a trademark if you will of Philadelphia. ATTENTION TO THE WORD OF GOD! It was in fact attention to the Bible that got William Carey going into mission work and got Darby looking at prophecy literally. Missions, and Dispensational Theology that leads to a clear understanding of the Bible from prophecy to where the Jews and the Church stand especially as the Tribulation draws near.

Revelation 3:7-13
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

############

So WHY would Philadelphia be concerned?

Because most of the other church groups-- Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea-- have misinterpreted the Word of God when it comes to understanding prophecy. They have decided that the Church has replaced Israel. So prophecy for them is allegorical-- so they make it mean whatever they like OR it is REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.

This weekend I listened to 2 separate preachers who BOTH brought up the fact that when Israel is replaced by the church, you have to do something with the Tribulation.

The Tribulation is meant for the salvation of the Jewish nation, in which Israel comes to full knowledge of and acceptance of Jesus her Messiah. God is dealing with Israel NOT the church in this period of time.

But if you replace Israel WITH THE CHURCH you end up needing to put the church in the Tribulation. Which is where a lot of Replacement Theologians go. (not all by any means but a lot)

so at this end of the church age, just before the Rapture we actually SHOULD see a resurgence in the kind of theology where churches that aren't dividing Scripture accurately declare they are the Jews. They forget that God keeps His promises. If He doesn't keep His promise to the Jew, He won't keep it with you either, because either He does keep His promises or He doesn't.

Replacement theology has God giving up on Israel in a fit of temper and grabbing the church in replacement.

OF COURSE this is wrong --see Paul's letter to the Romans 11 -- fitting because that's where the Roman Catholic church emerged and still is headquartered to this day.

In fact as expected there is a lot of anger directed at those of us who believe in dispensational theology and the pre trib Rapture. One of the features of dispensational theology is that it makes a distinction between Israel and the Church and applies that to prophecy -- rightly dividing the Word.

There are many other wonderful aspects of these letters to the churches but if you can remember this-- they have 3 applications:

1: directly to the churches at the time John wrote Revelation. 96 AD

2: to the church overall thru the ages, with application for each Christian in differing circumstance from the beginnings of their walk in Christ-- becoming a little jaded, losing their first love like Ephesus, enduring some persecution being encouraged by the letter to Smyrna , Pergamos stands for compromise with the world, a common concern. Thyatira reminds us NOT to get mixed up with false prophets and their theology, while Sardis reminds us not to quit half way, Philadelphia reminds us that even if we have but a little strength, it is Christ's strength we lean on as we perservere to the end. Laodicea should frighten us out of any tendency to be self sufficient and self satisfied.

3: a prophetic outline of the Things which are. The Church age. This is not something everyone agrees with but there is a striking parallel between the various churches and the church age as a whole.

I hope this helps
Love
M

I love this whole answer....I have not heard it broken down this way, and I thought I was sort of in left field with some of my thoughts, but, I agree with your insights totally....it is how I see it.

Also, I think these that are into Replacement have not understood that God deals with NATIONS more in the other dispensations since the flood, and with INDIVIDUALS from all nations in the Church Age...sure, not too many actual Jewish people NOW, but, when the church started, the apostles were Jewish, so, there is the meld there, but, the church is individuals, but, the Rapture removes a CHURCH, not a nation, but, the Tribulation deals with Nations (of course, nations are made up of individuals, so, God is STILL dealing with INDIVIDUALS), but He deals with individuals in judging and refining the nations and ISRAEL, specifically....if that makes sense. Please correct me if I am wrong, though.

THANKS

 

[cshere]

Oh no, some, ---perhaps even many --are saved. Just crabby.

RFLOL

 

[cshere]

I have had long discussions with my friend, who is very biblically knowledgable, quite excellent at debate and extremely intelligent

This is interesting, as I can sometimes get too "knowledgeable" and that is where my pride will take over...hypocrisy and willingness to argue come right in, as "moral superiority" rears its ugly head.

However, I think true moral character is built when humility melds with God's revelation, which then can shape an intellect to the type of teacher Paul wanted Timothy to be. But, it all starts, not with an intellectual knowledge, but, with a humility and acceptance of the type of wisdom God provides through faith, of the which the ego and natural intelligence is in the forefront

And Ironically, his favorite book of the Bible is Romans! Now, when I read Romans Chapter 11, I just can't believe my friend doesn't come to the same conclusion that I do: Israel is the tree, we are grafted in

. Just like with everything Christ tells us "he that hath an ear"....that ear is only opened when Christ opens it through faith, belief in WHO He is and acceptance through obedience.

As you stated re: Romans 11....I have always struggled with Jesus and the Gentile Woman...He seemed to answer her so harshly when she came to Him re: her daughter. But, it seems to fit here. She truly accepted that she, being a Gentile from Tyre/Sidon region, of all places for Christ to go, would be glad to accept the "crumbs" from the table. And, through her humility and recognition of who Christ was (I think she actually believed He was who He claimed to be as much as it was revealed to her....He was the Messiah), her faith not only was approved by Him, but, the next section describes some miracles that Christ performed in the Gentiles areas (the healing of the deaf and dumb man and the feeding of the 4,000)...taking His revelations to all the nations, also.....I just think this is very interesting, and, in part, shows us that we, as the Gentile part of the church are like Paul says, grafted in and to remember humility, like you were saying.

 

[Andiamo]

Is Israel the tree?

Reading Romans 11, it looks like Israel is represented as the "natural branches" that were broken off, and Gentiles were branches from a wild olive tree that were grafted into the cultivated olive tree.

Maybe "branches" signifies individual believers, and the olive tree is Israel, but it makes more sense to me that the olive tree is Jesus, or the promised Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven, or something.

Because of national Israel's unbelief, it was cut off, temporarily, and will be grafted back in. Meanwhile, believing gentiles--the "wild branches"--are being grafted in.

By the way, "Wild Branches" would make a good name for a contemporary Christian band.

 

[Andiamo]

Need coffee

 

[Andiamo]

Is Israel the tree?

Reading Romans 11, it looks like Israel is represented as the "natural branches" that were broken off, and Gentiles were branches from a wild olive tree that were grafted into the cultivated olive tree.

Maybe "branches" signifies individual believers, and the olive tree is Israel, but it makes more sense to me that the olive tree is Jesus, or the promised Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven, or something.

Because of national Israel's unbelief, it was cut off, temporarily, and will be grafted back in. Meanwhile, believing gentiles--the "wild branches"--are being grafted in.

By the way, "Wild Branches" would make a good name for a contemporary Christian band.

Sorry I haven't had my coffee yet and messing up this editing/reposting

"I am the vine, you are the branches" came to my mind immediately....when I read your post.....yes you are right.

Here is a thought also. I saw a video about fruit trees and how two completely different fruit trees can be grafted together....the branches are spliced in they will continue to grow in the completely different fruit tree and bear their own fruit. Different, yet together as one.

Now I haven't had my coffee yet but I am remembering the verse about the tiny seed of faith that grows into a tree. We are all spliced into Jesus as we come to saving faith in Him. Wow I need to get my bible out.
So both Jew and Gentile are spliced into Jesus

 

[Andiamo]

This is interesting, as I can sometimes get too "knowledgeable" and that is where my pride will take over...hypocrisy and willingness to argue come right in, as "moral superiority" rears its ugly head.

However, I think true moral character is built when humility melds with God's revelation, which then can shape an intellect to the type of teacher Paul wanted Timothy to be. But, it all starts, not with an intellectual knowledge, but, with a humility and acceptance of the type of wisdom God provides through faith, of the which the ego and natural intelligence is in the forefront


. Just like with everything Christ tells us "he that hath an ear"....that ear is only opened when Christ opens it through faith, belief in WHO He is and acceptance through obedience.

As you stated re: Romans 11....I have always struggled with Jesus and the Gentile Woman...He seemed to answer her so harshly when she came to Him re: her daughter. But, it seems to fit here. She truly accepted that she, being a Gentile from Tyre/Sidon region, of all places for Christ to go, would be glad to accept the "crumbs" from the table. And, through her humility and recognition of who Christ was (I think she actually believed He was who He claimed to be as much as it was revealed to her....He was the Messiah), her faith not only was approved by Him, but, the next section describes some miracles that Christ performed in the Gentiles areas (the healing of the deaf and dumb man and the feeding of the 4,000)...taking His revelations to all the nations, also.....I just think this is very interesting, and, in part, shows us that we, as the Gentile part of the church are like Paul says, grafted in and to remember humility, like you were saying.

I love this verse
"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."

 

[Matthew6:33]

Who were/are the Synagogue of Satan—people who say they are Jews, but are not?

After reading this thread, it is funny that you literally answered your own question here.

Replacement theology is the belief that the Christian church took the Jewish people's place. With that said, the one's who call themselves the Jews are not really the Jews

Great thread BTW.