Anyone care to kick this subject around? Most mental health people say a sociopath has no conscience which would lead some to believe they will never feel remorse for their sins. I have a family member who is one and has chased everyone away that posed a threat to her. Even christians who work in the mental health field say that there's not much anyone can do to get through to one. I'll check this tomorrow.
Sociopathy
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DanLMP
Well-Known Member
I believe David Wood of Acts17Apologetics is classified as a sociopath.
He has posted a YouTube video about his personal salvation that is chilling.
So in at least one case sociopaths can accept their salvation.
He has posted a YouTube video about his personal salvation that is chilling.
So in at least one case sociopaths can accept their salvation.
Last edited:
annieforjesus
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting subject, I think, because of the times we live in...I have been forced to deal with narcissists in my family, and that mental illness has much the same element as the sociopath..Looking for solid information and wanting to understand how those people could or would ever consider submitting to Christ for salvation has been something important to me..I think that Christian healthcare professionals are accurate in saying that it's almost impossible to reach them, except we do know all things are possible with God..I worked for a few years in substance abuse and addictions, there you see a lot of mental health issues that underly the addictions..working in that field , was just mentally brutal for me..so I left....you find yourself having hope for someone, only to see it collapse, time after time..seeing that for their loved ones too..I think sociopaths possibly could be helped, but the main problem is that they continue to yield to their pride and ego....one verse that I hold close to my heart as J go thru daily life is....God resists the proud, but gives Grace to the humble..I pray to not be proud because I have seen the damage it does to the human spirit.
Jan51
Well-Known Member
No one is beyond God's reach. That would be unbiblical.
DanLMP
Well-Known Member
My question is will a mental/chemical aberration absolve an individual from responsibility of his sin nature because he/she can't properly process their condition?
I will leave the answer in God's capable hands.
I will leave the answer in God's capable hands.
Ovicula
Member
May I recommend you a very helpful book that I've read? It is secular, but an eye-opening one and good to read.
Here is an excerpt:
An interview with Martha Stout
How do you spot a sociopath?
A sociopath has no conscience, no ability to feel shame, guilt or remorse. Since 1 in 25 ordinary Americans is a sociopath, you almost certainly know one or more than one already. How can you recognize him or her?
•Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they live only to dominate others and win.
•They have a kind of glow or charisma that makes them more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They are more spontaneous, more intense, complex, or even sexier than everyone else.
•They crave stimulation and excitement, often showing brief intense enthusiasms that they later drop.
•They are seductive, encouraging others to take risks.
•They will tell you that you are just like them. Don't believe it.
Who is the devil you know?
•Could it be your lying, cheating ex-husband?
•Your sadistic high school gym teacher?
•Your boss who loves to humiliate people in meetings?
•Sometimes you just know 'em when you see 'em….
•Historical sociopaths: Hitler, Stalin, Rasputin, Eichmann, Pol Pot, John Gotti
Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life
1. The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender. They look like us.
2. In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on -- educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent -- go with your instincts.
Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior, and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with.
3. When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.
Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy.
One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead.
Two may involve a serious mistake.
But three lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior.
Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.
4. Question authority.
Once again -- trust your own instincts and anxieties, especially those concerning people who claim that dominating others, violence, war, or some other violation of your conscience is the grand solution to some problem. Do this even when, or especially when, everyone around you has completely stopped questioning authority. Recite to yourself what Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. (At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.) The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. Encourage those around you to question, too.
5. Suspect flattery.
Compliments are lovely, especially when they are sincere. In contrast, flattery is extreme, and appeals to our egos in unrealistic ways. It is the material of counterfeit charm, and nearly always involves an intent to manipulate. Manipulation through flattery is sometimes innocuous and sometimes sinister. Peek over your massaged ego and remember to suspect flattery.
This "flattery rule" applies on an individual basis, and also at the level of groups and even whole nations. Throughout all of human history and to the present, the call to war has included the flattering claim that one's own forces are about to accomplish a victory that will change the world for the better, a triumph that is morally laudable, justified by its humane outcome, unique in human endeavor, righteous, and worthy of enormous gratitude.
Since we began to record the human story, all of our major wars have been framed in this way, on all sides of the conflict, and in all languages the adjective most often applied to the word war is the word holy. An argument can easily be made that humanity will have peace when nations of people are at last able to see through this masterful flattery.
6. If necessary, redefine your concept of respect.
Too often, we mistake fear for respect, and the more fearful we are of someone, the more we view him or her as deserving of our respect.
I have a spotted Bengal cat who was named Muscle Man by my daughter when she was a toddler, because even as a kitten he looked like a professional wrestler. Grown now, he is much larger than most other domestic cats. His formidable claws resemble those of his Asian leopard-cat ancestors, but by temperament, he is gentle and peace-loving.
My neighbor has a little calico who visits. Evidently the calico's predatory charisma is huge, and she is brilliant at directing the evil eye at other cats. Whenever she is within fifty feet, Muscle Man, all fifteen pounds of him to her seven, cringes and crouches in fear and feline deference.
Muscle Man is a splendid cat. He is warm and loving, and he is close to my heart. Nonetheless, I would like to believe that some of his reactions are more primitive than mine. I hope I do not mistake fear for respect, because to do so would be to ensure my own victimization.
Let us use our big human brains to overpower our animal tendency to bow to predators, so we can disentangle the reflexive confusion of anxiety and awe. In a perfect world, human respect would be an automatic reaction only to those who are strong, kind, and morally courageous. The person who profits from frightening you is not likely to be any of these.
The resolve to keep respect separate from fear is even more crucial for groups and nations. The politician, small or lofty, who menaces the people with frequent reminders of the possibility of crime, violence, or terrorism, and who then uses their magnified fear to gain allegiance is more likely to be a successful con artist than a legitimate leader. This too has been true throughout human history.
7. Do not join the game.
Intrigue is a sociopath's tool. Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him. In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself.
8. The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.
Psychologists do not usually like to recommend avoidance, but in this case, I make a very deliberate exception. The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether.
Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous. Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life. You will not hurt anyone's feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual. Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain. Avoid him/her anyway.
If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.
9. Question your tendency to pity too easily.
Respect should be reserved for the kind and the morally courageous. Pity is another socially valuable response, and should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune. If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.
Related to this -- I recommend that you severely challenge your need to be polite in absolutely all situations. For normal adults in our culture, being what we think of as "civilized" is like a reflex, and often we find ourselves being automatically decorous even when someone has enraged us, repeatedly lied to us, or figuratively stabbed us in the back. Sociopaths take huge advantage of this automatic courtesy in exploitive situations.
Do not be afraid to be unsmiling and calmly to the point.
10. Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.
Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.
At some point, most of us need to learn the important if disappointing life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior-- let alone the character structures-- of other people. Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has-- to control.
If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped. I think you will find this does not include the person who has no conscience.
The sociopath's behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life.
11. Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character.
"Please don't tell," often spoken tearfully and with great gnashing of teeth, is the trademark plea of thieves, child abusers-- and sociopaths. Do not listen to this siren-song. Other people deserve to be warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.
If someone without conscience insists that you "owe" him or her, recall what you are about to read here-- that "You owe me" has been the standard line of sociopaths for thousands of years, quite literally, and is still so. It is what Rasputin told the Empress of Russia. It is what Hannah's father implied to her, after her eye-opening conversation with him at the prison.
We tend to experience "You owe me" as a compelling claim, but it is simply not true. Do not listen. Also, ignore the one that goes, "You are just like me." You are not.
12. Defend your psyche.
Do not allow someone without conscience, or even a string of such people, to convince you that humanity is a failure. Most human beings do possess conscience. Most human beings are able to love.
13. Living well is the best revenge.
Advice For The Workplace
Is there a bully where you work?
Are you concerned that your coworker may be lying about you behind your back?
Does your boss insult you, or seem to want to make your life more difficult?
Have you ever suspected that someone at the top is cheating?
If so, you may actually be dealing with a sociopath, a person who literally has no conscience, who loves to make people jump just for the fun of it-- a person who can do anything at all without the slightest twinge of guilt.
Four percent of Americans are sociopaths, meaning that they have no conscience, and this statistic probably gets larger as one goes up the ladder of success. At the top echelons of success in big business, sociopaths are probably even more plentiful. Most sociopaths in business are not physically violent, and they don't look like Charles Manson. They look like we do.
In your daily work life, how can you identify and cope effectively with such people? Here are some guidelines:
1. SUSPECT FLATTERY. Sincere compliments from a coworker or a boss are nice, but outrageous flattery is often an attempt to draw you into a sociopath's snare. If you feel your ego is being massaged, you may be dealing with a sociopath. Be careful.
2. TAKE LABELS AND TITLES WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. Just because someone is older than you, has a higher position or more degrees, or is wealthier than you does not mean his or her moral judgment is better than yours.
3. IN YOUR ASSESSMENTS OF THE PEOPLE YOU WORK WITH, PRACTICE THE RULE OF THREES. (The author will explain what this is.)
4. ALWAYS QUESTION AUTHORITY WHEN IT CONFLICTS WITH YOUR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. This may be hard to do, but it is crucial to your own career and well-being.
5. NEVER AGREE TO HELP A SOCIOPATH CONCEAL HIS OR HER SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITIES AT WORK.
6. If you are afraid of your boss, NEVER CONFUSE THESE FEELINGS WITH RESPECT.
7. NEVER HAVE A PRIVATE ARGUMENT WITH A SOCIOPATH AT WORK. (The author will explain why not.)
8. REALISTICALLY ASSESS THE DAMAGE TO YOUR LIFE. If it's too great, you may have to leave. Remember that living well is the best revenge.
https://www.bookbrowse.com/author_in...7/martha-stout
Here is an excerpt:
The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout
An interview with Martha Stout
How do you spot a sociopath?
A sociopath has no conscience, no ability to feel shame, guilt or remorse. Since 1 in 25 ordinary Americans is a sociopath, you almost certainly know one or more than one already. How can you recognize him or her?
•Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they live only to dominate others and win.
•They have a kind of glow or charisma that makes them more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They are more spontaneous, more intense, complex, or even sexier than everyone else.
•They crave stimulation and excitement, often showing brief intense enthusiasms that they later drop.
•They are seductive, encouraging others to take risks.
•They will tell you that you are just like them. Don't believe it.
Who is the devil you know?
•Could it be your lying, cheating ex-husband?
•Your sadistic high school gym teacher?
•Your boss who loves to humiliate people in meetings?
•Sometimes you just know 'em when you see 'em….
•Historical sociopaths: Hitler, Stalin, Rasputin, Eichmann, Pol Pot, John Gotti
Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life
1. The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender. They look like us.
2. In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on -- educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent -- go with your instincts.
Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior, and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with.
3. When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.
Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy.
One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead.
Two may involve a serious mistake.
But three lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior.
Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.
Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.
4. Question authority.
Once again -- trust your own instincts and anxieties, especially those concerning people who claim that dominating others, violence, war, or some other violation of your conscience is the grand solution to some problem. Do this even when, or especially when, everyone around you has completely stopped questioning authority. Recite to yourself what Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. (At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.) The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. Encourage those around you to question, too.
5. Suspect flattery.
Compliments are lovely, especially when they are sincere. In contrast, flattery is extreme, and appeals to our egos in unrealistic ways. It is the material of counterfeit charm, and nearly always involves an intent to manipulate. Manipulation through flattery is sometimes innocuous and sometimes sinister. Peek over your massaged ego and remember to suspect flattery.
This "flattery rule" applies on an individual basis, and also at the level of groups and even whole nations. Throughout all of human history and to the present, the call to war has included the flattering claim that one's own forces are about to accomplish a victory that will change the world for the better, a triumph that is morally laudable, justified by its humane outcome, unique in human endeavor, righteous, and worthy of enormous gratitude.
Since we began to record the human story, all of our major wars have been framed in this way, on all sides of the conflict, and in all languages the adjective most often applied to the word war is the word holy. An argument can easily be made that humanity will have peace when nations of people are at last able to see through this masterful flattery.
6. If necessary, redefine your concept of respect.
Too often, we mistake fear for respect, and the more fearful we are of someone, the more we view him or her as deserving of our respect.
I have a spotted Bengal cat who was named Muscle Man by my daughter when she was a toddler, because even as a kitten he looked like a professional wrestler. Grown now, he is much larger than most other domestic cats. His formidable claws resemble those of his Asian leopard-cat ancestors, but by temperament, he is gentle and peace-loving.
My neighbor has a little calico who visits. Evidently the calico's predatory charisma is huge, and she is brilliant at directing the evil eye at other cats. Whenever she is within fifty feet, Muscle Man, all fifteen pounds of him to her seven, cringes and crouches in fear and feline deference.
Muscle Man is a splendid cat. He is warm and loving, and he is close to my heart. Nonetheless, I would like to believe that some of his reactions are more primitive than mine. I hope I do not mistake fear for respect, because to do so would be to ensure my own victimization.
Let us use our big human brains to overpower our animal tendency to bow to predators, so we can disentangle the reflexive confusion of anxiety and awe. In a perfect world, human respect would be an automatic reaction only to those who are strong, kind, and morally courageous. The person who profits from frightening you is not likely to be any of these.
The resolve to keep respect separate from fear is even more crucial for groups and nations. The politician, small or lofty, who menaces the people with frequent reminders of the possibility of crime, violence, or terrorism, and who then uses their magnified fear to gain allegiance is more likely to be a successful con artist than a legitimate leader. This too has been true throughout human history.
7. Do not join the game.
Intrigue is a sociopath's tool. Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him. In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, which is to protect yourself.
8. The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.
Psychologists do not usually like to recommend avoidance, but in this case, I make a very deliberate exception. The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether.
Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous. Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life. You will not hurt anyone's feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual. Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain. Avoid him/her anyway.
If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.
9. Question your tendency to pity too easily.
Respect should be reserved for the kind and the morally courageous. Pity is another socially valuable response, and should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune. If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to one hundred percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.
Related to this -- I recommend that you severely challenge your need to be polite in absolutely all situations. For normal adults in our culture, being what we think of as "civilized" is like a reflex, and often we find ourselves being automatically decorous even when someone has enraged us, repeatedly lied to us, or figuratively stabbed us in the back. Sociopaths take huge advantage of this automatic courtesy in exploitive situations.
Do not be afraid to be unsmiling and calmly to the point.
10. Do not try to redeem the unredeemable.
Second (third, fourth, and fifth) chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses.
At some point, most of us need to learn the important if disappointing life lesson that, no matter how good our intentions, we cannot control the behavior-- let alone the character structures-- of other people. Learn this fact of human life, and avoid the irony of getting caught up in the same ambition he has-- to control.
If you do not desire control, but instead want to help people, then help only those who truly want to be helped. I think you will find this does not include the person who has no conscience.
The sociopath's behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life.
11. Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character.
"Please don't tell," often spoken tearfully and with great gnashing of teeth, is the trademark plea of thieves, child abusers-- and sociopaths. Do not listen to this siren-song. Other people deserve to be warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.
If someone without conscience insists that you "owe" him or her, recall what you are about to read here-- that "You owe me" has been the standard line of sociopaths for thousands of years, quite literally, and is still so. It is what Rasputin told the Empress of Russia. It is what Hannah's father implied to her, after her eye-opening conversation with him at the prison.
We tend to experience "You owe me" as a compelling claim, but it is simply not true. Do not listen. Also, ignore the one that goes, "You are just like me." You are not.
12. Defend your psyche.
Do not allow someone without conscience, or even a string of such people, to convince you that humanity is a failure. Most human beings do possess conscience. Most human beings are able to love.
13. Living well is the best revenge.
Advice For The Workplace
Is there a bully where you work?
Are you concerned that your coworker may be lying about you behind your back?
Does your boss insult you, or seem to want to make your life more difficult?
Have you ever suspected that someone at the top is cheating?
If so, you may actually be dealing with a sociopath, a person who literally has no conscience, who loves to make people jump just for the fun of it-- a person who can do anything at all without the slightest twinge of guilt.
Four percent of Americans are sociopaths, meaning that they have no conscience, and this statistic probably gets larger as one goes up the ladder of success. At the top echelons of success in big business, sociopaths are probably even more plentiful. Most sociopaths in business are not physically violent, and they don't look like Charles Manson. They look like we do.
In your daily work life, how can you identify and cope effectively with such people? Here are some guidelines:
1. SUSPECT FLATTERY. Sincere compliments from a coworker or a boss are nice, but outrageous flattery is often an attempt to draw you into a sociopath's snare. If you feel your ego is being massaged, you may be dealing with a sociopath. Be careful.
2. TAKE LABELS AND TITLES WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. Just because someone is older than you, has a higher position or more degrees, or is wealthier than you does not mean his or her moral judgment is better than yours.
3. IN YOUR ASSESSMENTS OF THE PEOPLE YOU WORK WITH, PRACTICE THE RULE OF THREES. (The author will explain what this is.)
4. ALWAYS QUESTION AUTHORITY WHEN IT CONFLICTS WITH YOUR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG. This may be hard to do, but it is crucial to your own career and well-being.
5. NEVER AGREE TO HELP A SOCIOPATH CONCEAL HIS OR HER SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITIES AT WORK.
6. If you are afraid of your boss, NEVER CONFUSE THESE FEELINGS WITH RESPECT.
7. NEVER HAVE A PRIVATE ARGUMENT WITH A SOCIOPATH AT WORK. (The author will explain why not.)
8. REALISTICALLY ASSESS THE DAMAGE TO YOUR LIFE. If it's too great, you may have to leave. Remember that living well is the best revenge.
https://www.bookbrowse.com/author_in...7/martha-stout
Ovicula
Member
Can psychopaths be saved?
Three years ago I was interviewed by “Christian Cinema” about my then new book Finding God in the Shack. At one point in the interview I talked about the way that grace could even break through the hardened shell of a pyschopathic serial killer:
When I was growing up, I lived near the Pacific Northwest, and we got the Seattle TV stations. I remember hearing every day about this person called The Green River Killer. He was a serial killer who had killed more than 70 women in the Pacific Northwest.
Gary Ridgeway [sic] was caught in 2003, and they had a sentence hearing for him. At the hearing, they had victim impact statements that I saw. There were people whose daughters, sisters, and so on, had been brutally assaulted, raped and killed by this guy. Some of them said, “You’re going to burn in hell for eternity,” and other things, and he sat there with his head bowed.
But one guy got up there and said, “God told me to forgive. He didn’t say who to forgive, He just said forgive.” And suddenly, this person Gary Ridgeway [sic], who’s supposed to be a sociopath, had big tears rolling down his cheeks. I thought at that moment that forgiveness is the most powerful force in the universe.
If I do say so myself, it was a powerful moment in the interview, one used to significant, dramatic effect (though that doesn’t necessarily carry through to the transcript). Few images are more powerful (and for some, offensive) than the picture of a completely debased murderer being extended grace by a bereaved parent.
Some time after I did the interview I mentioned the case to a Christian friend who is a clinical psychologist. However, he didn’t share my warm response to the story. Instead he acted rather dismissively. He pointed out that there are many possible reasons Gary Ridgway may have been crying at that moment, and if he really was a psychopathic personality the tears weren’t the first sign in a story of redemption.
I had to admit he was right. I really had no idea what the tears meant. I chose to interpret them in accord with a narrative of sin-forgiveness/repentance-redemption. However, that didn’t mean they were repentant at all. They could mean all sorts of things. “Self-pity” my friend suggested, but not repentance.
Since that rather deflationary exchange I have read up on psychopathy, and while I am certainly no expert, I now recognize with a deepened sense of alarm the conceptual problems the psychopathic personality presents to the Christian theologian. I’ll be saying more on that in a subsequent post. But for now I want to consider a couple other examples where Christians have misunderstood the psychopathic personality by fitting certain individuals into that same facile framework of sin-forgiveness/repentance-redemption.
Before considering our two examples, I’ll point out two key reasons why Christians are likely to be mistaken in appropriating notorious psychopaths into redemptive stories. To begin with, Christians naturally gravitate toward examples of extreme sinners coming to grace. So-called “trophy conversions” then become a way to strengthen the faith and draw others into it. Thus, you can think of the way one time notorious gang leader of New York, Nicky Cruz was embraced by Christians after his conversion. Cruz quickly gained a popular following (like many I read his classic autobiography Run Baby Run) because he who had once known the mean streets of New York now knew God’s grace. Since there is nobody more debased than a psychopathic serial killer, these become the ultimate trophies. (Incidentally, less than 0.1% of psychopaths kill. We’ll come back to that later.)
Second, psychopaths are master manipulators who crave attention, including the kind of attention they receive from being considered a trophy conversion. This makes the Christian community vulnerable to being taken in by the psychopath who is only too happy to role-play a starring part in the narrative of redemption.
Ted Bundy
The first case involved perhaps the United States’ most prolific and infamous serial killer of all, Ted Bundy. In 1989 James Dobson interviewed Bundy shortly before his execution. Bundy was well aware that Dobson wanted him to identify as the impetus behind his crimes the social ills that Dobson himself had targeted at Focus on the Family. And Bundy the psychopath was only too happy to oblige as he focused in on the destructive role of pornography as “his newly contrived ‘devil made me do it’ defense to help explain his almost unfathomable murder career.” (Stephen Michaud and Hugh Aynesworth, The Only Living Witness: The True Story of Serial Sex Killer Ted Bundy, (Authorlink, 1999), 340).
To be sure, I share Dobson’s revulsion of pornography and his belief that it contributes to many social ills. But in his desire to find a repentant poster child for his fight, Dobson completely ignored the fact that Bundy is first and foremost a psychopath. The consumption of pornography undoubtedly spurred on Bundy’s litany of crimes, but to blame pornography for Bundy is like blaming blood in the water for the shark. Perhaps the shark wouldn’t have attacked when it did had the blood not been there, but the the blood didn’t turn a benign fish into a shark. The shark was the shark by its nature. And Bundy was a psychopath by nature.
Jeffrey Dahmer
Dahmer, the cannibalistic serial killer from Milwaukee, may not have been quite as “prolific” as Bundy, but he was equally grisly, and the discovery of his crimes in the early 1990s deeply scarred the public consciousness. So it is no surprise that many Christians were over-joyed when they heard reports that Dahmer had become a Christian and was seeking baptism. At the time I remember hearing Dahmer’s name often mentioned as an example of grace breaking through to the chief of sinners, in this case a serial killer who dismembered and ate his victims.
Some people were skeptical of course. But consider the following response to those skeptics from Roy Ratcliff in his article”Saving Jeffrey Dahmer“:
This question bothers me. Why question the sincerity of another person’s faith? Baptism represents a change in lifestyle. A person is expected to change after being baptized. When people don’t change, we begin to wonder. Why were they baptized? Did they did not fully comprehend what was involved?
In other words, Ratcliff (who was the Wisconsin minister who baptized Dahmer) wanted people to consider Dahmer not for his heinous crimes but for his life post-baptism.
Fair enough. I take that point. Nonetheless, it is frustrating that Ratcliff seems to display a blissful ignorance regarding the characteristics of a psychopathic personality. We’re not simply talking about John Newton, former slave trader, finding God and penning “Amazing Grace”. We are talking rather about a manipulative, amoral, completely narcissistic psychopathic personality. Does this mean Dahmer is beyond redemption? We’ll talk about that later.
But it certainly does mean this: that the highest degree of skepticism is always warranted whenever a psychopath begins to speak about redemption.
https://randalrauser.com/2012/01/can-psychopaths-be-saved/
athenasius
Well-Known Member
I'll bat this around a little. When I read this question I was thinking a bit about the don't throw your pearls before swine lest they turn on you and rend you to pieces passage. And Jesus commanding us to leave, shaking the dust off the sandals when we give the gospel and it's not received. I think both these might come into play here.
Got Questions at https://www.gotquestions.org/pearls-before-swine.html has a good take on this. The excerpt that really resonates for me is the following:
"Repeatedly sharing the gospel with someone who continually scoffs and ridicules Christ is like casting pearls before swine. We can identify such people through discernment, which is given in some measure to all Christians (1 Corinthians 2:15–16).
The command not to cast your pearls before swine does not mean we refrain from preaching the gospel. Jesus Himself ate with and taught sinners and tax collectors (Matthew 9:10). In essence, the instruction in Matthew 7:6 is the same that Jesus gave to His apostles when He said, “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town” (Matthew 10:14). We are to share the gospel, but, when it becomes apparent that the gospel is not welcome, we are to move on. We are responsible to share the good news; we are not responsible for people’s response to the good news. Pigs don’t appreciate pearls, and some people don’t appreciate what Christ has done for them. "
back to me batting this topic around a bit.
So we have this command to share the gospel, and we are to pray for the lost, yet at the same time, we aren't to continually force the gospel on the unwilling, rather Jesus calls us to just move on. And there is a warning that if we DON'T move on in certain circumstances (when people behave like swine) that we could be seriously harmed if we don't obey Jesus warning.
This doesn't mean we give up on a coworker or a loved one the first few times, but after a while if a pattern of rejection happens, we can pray and seek God to see if it's time to just move on. Moving on could be dropping the subject, with this person for the sake of peace while remaining at our job or literally moving on to another job. We may be called to put our efforts elsewhere, but the opportunity to PRAY for that individual remains. sometimes we are given the opportunity to share the gospel again as the Lord permits.
I think the same principle applies to people who have proven themselves to be manipulative and deceitful.
We are not the Holy Spirit. He is the only One who knows the heart of that other human being.
We have the Holy Spirit in us, motivating and giving us the power and ability to present the gospel, but we don't know the heart. Even someone we regretfully leave behind, not preaching to them anymore can be prayed for. Where there is life there is hope that the person may yet be saved. We don't know the final outcome.
HOWEVER we do have the DISCERNMENT of the Holy Spirit, which can often be a soft gentle nudge that it's time to stop talking and move on or after a pattern of behaviour that is manipulative and deceiving, that it's time to cut contact.
But we are wise to remember what Jesus said about moving on. In the end there will be 2 responses from the sociopathic personalities just like with all humanity.
A precious few like David Woods will go on to be truly saved, having been reached finally by the gospel thru the preaching of someone, and by the action of the Holy Spirit. Many more will come to the Great Final White Throne Judgement Seat of Christ at the end of the Millennium and they will face God and attempt to say, but nobody told me, and Christ will make it clear that they did have many who were sent to share the gospel, and they rejected Christ every time.
Because we don't know who is who, we are called to preach the gospel to everyone we can.
When they reject it we are called to move on. Someone else may take our place, that is up to God.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT RENDING INTO PIECES BIT?????
I think it's wise to listen to Jesus who gives us permission, even a COMMAND to leave and move on to another more receptive person. To not feel guilty that we are "giving up". We aren't. We are just turning them over to God.
IF YOU PERSIST you may be attacked and even harmed in some way.
And that brings us round to sociopaths. They are dangerous. We can pray for them and witness to them, but they are master manipulators and they love the unwary good hearted souls that they can play with and siphon funds or attention from. If a jail time conversion makes your heart sing, they'll produce a sham of a one with the mastery of an Oscar award movie producer.
We never know even with a non sociopath if their conversion was true or not. That is between them and God. Over time, they bear fruits of that relationship with the Lord, things like true remorse and attempts to make things right start to happen, they can identify with the hurt and pain of those they've wronged but crocodile tears on command don't qualify.
So we never really know the heart of another person. God however does.
We preach, spread the gospel seed on good ground and bad ground alike, wherever we can. That is what we are called to. We water it with the Word of God, and some spring up only to fall away later. Others that seed doesn't even germinate. But a precious few spring up and bear fruit, and spread seed of the gospel again, and some more than others, but it's God who gives that increase.
Knowing that we are OK to leave a sociopath or someone who is manipulating us IS SO IMPORTANT. They aren't without hope just because we stopped playing their games, they might be better off realizing there are some Christians they can't scam.
And in obeying Christ, we may be preventing harm to ourselves or others. Particularly if the sociopath is attempting a conversion to sucker someone into something or to get out of jail and cause more harm.
Sociopaths like swine can turn and trample people to death. Wild hogs are very very dangerous, and even domestic swine are nasty when they want to be. Not for nothing did Jesus command us not to cast our pearls before swine, lest they turn on us.
Jonathan
Well-Known Member
Not only will they be wasted, they will be USED against you. I know.
athenasius
Well-Known Member
Boy is that ever true! The only person I really trust is GOD. Yes I trust my friends and family, but even there, trust has limits. We are all flesh and prone to sin. Even Christians.
I've seen some of these behaviours in the pulpit at that church we were excommed out of in the 90's. Those who are drawn to leadership of the church are usually good people with best intentions, but some are there as wolves and they behave like it in secret.
Sometimes like in that church, you become aware of lies and conscienceless behaviour. That expastor lied about another pastor from the pulpit, took advantage of another couple in the church in a real estate deal, and stole from a third couple and I could go on. He hid it for years, but once I was out, I could spot the signs I'd missed. Part of my problem was that I trusted church leaders.
I don't trust as easily anymore and while I can love and interact with people who have broken trust with me, and forgive them, I never fully trust them again.
I will NEVER willingly allow them the opportunity to do it again unless they've understood what they did wrong, and are remorseful and willing to do what it takes so it never happens again. Then I'll trust them a bit, a bit more and a bit more. They can earn most of my trust back but unfortunately trust is one of those things that if it's broken, it can't always be turned all the way back to the way it was.
The one who broke that trust has to know they will always come under a bit more scrutiny. Forgiveness is complete, but earning trust is a process and once broken, it may never fully come back.
You can't always dump someone like this. Sometimes they are the boss and you need that paycheck. Sometimes they are in the family. Sometimes they are the only way you can be with people you love. In those cases, be watchful, be wary, don't extend trust where it hasn't been earned and be ready to walk if you have to. Limit the extent they can damage you.
But then there are those who lack a conscience or whose conscience is so seared they are immune to guilt or remorse. They are the ones we call narcissists and sociopaths.
And when THAT person doesn't even bother to try to ask forgiveness, and show that he understands he did wrong, and he is working to make it right---- don't EVER trust him or her again! NEVER!
You can still forgive them, more for your own sake, so you can move on but you don't don't don't ever ever ever trust them.
Because if they refuse to even see the harm they caused, if they refuse to acknowledge their sins, they will repeat them as soon as they are able.
Basically as soon as they see you'll let them--they will do it again. And they want that pleasure of scoring, scamming one more time. Just don't let it be you!
There is a lot of wisdom in these posts of yours Ovicula, and the person you quoted has a lot of wisdom.
Jan51
Well-Known Member
Sociopath or not, I agree that there are people in the church that you can't really know if they are truly saved or not, regardless of what they say. I was in a church once where there were two individuals that I had serious doubts about. Maybe they were truly saved but very carnal and not in the Word--I don't know. But I remember that it seems everyone else in the church was naive in their acceptance of these individuals. Unsaved people in the community seemed to have more discernment about their two-faced-ness and crookedness than the church folk. Unfortunately many Christians are often too willing to accept someone who claims to be a Christian and too willing to close their eyes to things that don't add up. I think they think it is unchristian to do otherwise. But Jesus said to be gentle as doves but also wise as serpents. Even Philip was taken in by a fake conversion and baptized him.
mattfivefour
Well-Known Member
Absolutely! While I believe ANYBODY can be saved, there are many sociopathic personalities who are quite capable of attempting to fake a conversion for their own evil self-focused purposes. Thanks for your contributions to this thread, Randal
athenasius
Well-Known Member
Another passage that applies here is in 2 Tim 3:1-9 I'm inserting it here, but I'm going to emphasize some parts of the text.
2 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
Margery talking here again, Notice the description given here. ISN'T THIS THE MATCH to what we are discussing? Narcissism, Sociopathy etc. These are hallmark characteristics. Certainly this is the public behaviour we are seeing more and more. And that is what Paul said here, that in the end (now) we will see this as a characteristic of the people of our time.
NOW LOOK AT VERSE 5: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY!!!!! Not hang out with, make excuses for, tolerate but TURN AWAY. It is ok, it is a very good Christian act to TURN AWAY from such as these. Please note these are found in CHURCH having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. So this says to me that in the end times, we will HAVE to turn away from some who claim to be Christians but behave like narcissists or worse.
then Titus. We had a thread here recently quoting this in reference to the Kavanaugh hearings:
Titus 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Which really describes again, the narcissism and evil nature that is so prevalent now. I kept thinking of it in relation to this thread because one of the things that you bump into with people like this, is that they think everyone else thinks as dirty and mean as they do. They think everyone is a hypocrite like them. And they mock others who appear upright, deciding that the upright are "just like me" and "aren't being honest" about the upright person's own true nature.
Then you get various versions of Emergent and Seeker Sensitive church leaders who swear from the pulpit, and state that it's ok to stay in the sins, that those who stand against sins are the hypocrites, sins like abortion, homosexuality and they also usually attack the narrow way of Christ, where CHRIST is the ONLY way to God, no other "paths" exist. They will have beer fests in church and other abominable practices. Now not everyone who does that stuff is a narcissist or a sociopath, but I'm interested to note that the Mars Hill pastor and the Willow Creek pastor have both been found to be abusive to people in their congregations.
Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMM
From such turn away.
something I've noticed with the types that fit the profile we are discussing is that they will do the nastiest stuff, then turn around and demand you "forgive and FORGET" and trust them again.
They will tell you that if you don't "forget" that you haven't forgiven. DON'T BELIEVE THAT LIE FOR A MOMENT. God forgives us, removing our sins as far as east is from west, and forgets them as we are washed by the blood of Christ.
But even so, God forgave King David for the sins he did but there were CONSEQUENCES. God forgave but the first child conceived with Bathsheba died. A number of David's citizens DIED after he numbered Israel.
Forgiveness doesn't mean there aren't consequences for a serious sin.
So if you forgive, you do it to remove your own need to punish, giving the sinner over to God
But you are not obliged to forget, and then allow them to do it again by extending un earned trust.
If someone breaks that rule of three up above, and thanks for that Ovicula, it's good, then I think trust needs to be earned back over time and there will be consequences.
These kind of people don't like that so they'll shift blame to you saying you are the unforgiving one, where in reality, they are the unrepentant one. They are only sorry they got caught and that you aren't letting them do it again.
FROM SUCH TURN AWAY!
2 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
Margery talking here again, Notice the description given here. ISN'T THIS THE MATCH to what we are discussing? Narcissism, Sociopathy etc. These are hallmark characteristics. Certainly this is the public behaviour we are seeing more and more. And that is what Paul said here, that in the end (now) we will see this as a characteristic of the people of our time.
NOW LOOK AT VERSE 5: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY!!!!! Not hang out with, make excuses for, tolerate but TURN AWAY. It is ok, it is a very good Christian act to TURN AWAY from such as these. Please note these are found in CHURCH having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. So this says to me that in the end times, we will HAVE to turn away from some who claim to be Christians but behave like narcissists or worse.
then Titus. We had a thread here recently quoting this in reference to the Kavanaugh hearings:
Titus 1:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Which really describes again, the narcissism and evil nature that is so prevalent now. I kept thinking of it in relation to this thread because one of the things that you bump into with people like this, is that they think everyone else thinks as dirty and mean as they do. They think everyone is a hypocrite like them. And they mock others who appear upright, deciding that the upright are "just like me" and "aren't being honest" about the upright person's own true nature.
Then you get various versions of Emergent and Seeker Sensitive church leaders who swear from the pulpit, and state that it's ok to stay in the sins, that those who stand against sins are the hypocrites, sins like abortion, homosexuality and they also usually attack the narrow way of Christ, where CHRIST is the ONLY way to God, no other "paths" exist. They will have beer fests in church and other abominable practices. Now not everyone who does that stuff is a narcissist or a sociopath, but I'm interested to note that the Mars Hill pastor and the Willow Creek pastor have both been found to be abusive to people in their congregations.
Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMM
From such turn away.
something I've noticed with the types that fit the profile we are discussing is that they will do the nastiest stuff, then turn around and demand you "forgive and FORGET" and trust them again.
They will tell you that if you don't "forget" that you haven't forgiven. DON'T BELIEVE THAT LIE FOR A MOMENT. God forgives us, removing our sins as far as east is from west, and forgets them as we are washed by the blood of Christ.
But even so, God forgave King David for the sins he did but there were CONSEQUENCES. God forgave but the first child conceived with Bathsheba died. A number of David's citizens DIED after he numbered Israel.
Forgiveness doesn't mean there aren't consequences for a serious sin.
So if you forgive, you do it to remove your own need to punish, giving the sinner over to God
But you are not obliged to forget, and then allow them to do it again by extending un earned trust.
If someone breaks that rule of three up above, and thanks for that Ovicula, it's good, then I think trust needs to be earned back over time and there will be consequences.
These kind of people don't like that so they'll shift blame to you saying you are the unforgiving one, where in reality, they are the unrepentant one. They are only sorry they got caught and that you aren't letting them do it again.
FROM SUCH TURN AWAY!
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annieforjesus
Well-Known Member
I want to thank everyone for your posts...so much good information, especially in the areas of what the Bible has to say concerning it..this weekend marks the one year anniversary of being brought out of an abusive family situation.. it's sad, but, joyous too..God miraculously picked me up, provided everything that I needed to start a new and peaceful life everyday I am so thankful because it is overwhelmingly powerful to look back and see all that He has done..that is why I've spent time on the subject we are talking about here.,If anyone ever falls into the clutches of a narcissistic power couple who is intent on taking every dime you have and destroying you, , then you will understand a kind of fear that's hard to describe, But, I cannot praise God enough. He showed up and upheld me with His righteous right hand..to God be the glory.I have a great life now, and will never allow certain people back in, because they are dangerous to me.
Everlasting Life
Through Faith in Jesus
Jeri...so glad you are in a better place and praise God for His kindness in your life.
In reading this thread I really think it's important to know God's word, especially the boundaries we are encouraged to practice as Athenasius points out. Especially since we are seeing an increase in false teaching which invariably has all sorts of other issues that come with... such as abuse and manipulation sometimes.
It takes the word of God to pierce through false ideas and messages that may seem right because it's familiar, like destructive family patterns one has grown up with or gradually gotten used to in a particular environment, etc.
God's Word truly can give direction in this and one can pray for God's guidance in recognizing set boundaries in scripture and how to apply in your own life.
There are times when interactions just have to be completely stopped. One can continue to act in love by praying....with great distance.
And there are times where space needs to be put in place until there's reconciliation and trust developed again. There's various degrees in this and God can guide.
One thing I'll add is to listen to your gut. A creeping or alarming sense that something isn't right....EVEN IF YOU CAN'T PUT YOUR FINGER ON WHY. I think God put that there for a reason. Usually there's a good reason but the conscious mind just hasn't caught up with the alarm bells going off yet. I know that I'm so glad that in the past I've not squelched alerts going off inside and responded appropriately. 99.9 times I was right on. It was later when I was able to put together what just wasn't right.
And, something I tell my kids. When meeting new people do not just give trust away. Trust has to be established, period. One can be polite and civil, but it's important to see how people act over time before opening oneself up in various degrees.
I think that's biblical too. In the New Testament potential leaders in a church are to be watched to see how they respond to things before being placed in leadership in a church. To see if they are trustworthy.
Kaatje
My soul waits for the Lord, and in His Word I hope
That is an issue I have asked myself so many times over the years:
Where lies the fine line between sin and sickness?
Who is culpable and who is to be absolved of reponsibility?
I couldn’t work it out.
Thank you, DanLMP, that is the best answer!
Jonathan
Well-Known Member
I'm getting a bit personal here, but the worst is when someone who is not a psychopath encourages you to get in a relationship with one (hopefully, unknowingly), and you try your best to be good and you are torn apart in the process.
As long as someone has a pulse, they are a child of God and loved just as much as you and I, but Sin runs deep and sometimes great discretion is the better part of valor, even if it means putting on your big boy pants, admitting you don't know why this person is the way they are, but they are not only unhealthy for you, but your time and effort is wasted and probably unhealthy to them.
I have my own faults. PLENTY OF THEM. I don't know why God makes (or allows) some people to become the way they do. I question myself daily. But you aren't doing yourself or them any favors by putting up with bad behavior. I'm not talking about the normal give and take of a healthy relationship... we all have arguments, make points, get peeved, realize we still love each other, make up, come to an agreement, laugh it off, maybe one person realizes they were wrong, or the other, or whatever. Etc.
Or maybe they come to a proper impasse, and acknowledge it. And part ways. Again, healthy.
But there are some people in this world who don't operate that way. They use emotions, social currency (rumors and whatnot), any kind of leverage, or anything else without any concern for God, to achieve something that will never allow them to be happy in the long term.
NEVER be a softy. But be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.
As long as someone has a pulse, they are a child of God and loved just as much as you and I, but Sin runs deep and sometimes great discretion is the better part of valor, even if it means putting on your big boy pants, admitting you don't know why this person is the way they are, but they are not only unhealthy for you, but your time and effort is wasted and probably unhealthy to them.
I have my own faults. PLENTY OF THEM. I don't know why God makes (or allows) some people to become the way they do. I question myself daily. But you aren't doing yourself or them any favors by putting up with bad behavior. I'm not talking about the normal give and take of a healthy relationship... we all have arguments, make points, get peeved, realize we still love each other, make up, come to an agreement, laugh it off, maybe one person realizes they were wrong, or the other, or whatever. Etc.
Or maybe they come to a proper impasse, and acknowledge it. And part ways. Again, healthy.
But there are some people in this world who don't operate that way. They use emotions, social currency (rumors and whatnot), any kind of leverage, or anything else without any concern for God, to achieve something that will never allow them to be happy in the long term.
NEVER be a softy. But be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.
Salluz
Aspiring Man of God
Respectfully, brother, I disagree with the first part of this statement. Of course God loves everyone and wants that no one should perish, but not everyone is a child of God
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. John 1:12-13
Only believers are children of God; in fact, Jesus referred to pharisees as being children of the Enemy
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44
athenasius
Well-Known Member
AMEN!!!!