Socialism

katt

Well-Known Member
When talking socialism with those that like the idea...how does one answer said idiot when they throw in your face..public schools, fire departments, libraries, hospitals, police departments...ect as Socialist ideas..paid for by our taxes and used by everyone..now as for schools..I don't believe the Government has any business in our education...Hospitals..I've always wondered who owns them..the fire and police departments I always thought were paid for by our local taxes not state or federal..and libraries i thought was local taxes..but are they a form of socialism?..if so..what do I say to a socialist? If not..how do I prove it to said Socialist...
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
You have to hold them to one thing at a time. Everytime they are on the radio I hear them trying to yank something else out of the air each time you try to catch them on point. They keep the conversation moving so you can't nail them on an issue. It takes practice and focus. Don't let them move to anything else until they answer your challenge.
 

katt

Well-Known Member
I was asked specifically how i feel about those points..I see nothing wrong with them..how do I defend that, while still spouting the evils of Socialism?...To me..they are not the same thing..to someone into Socialism...they are...
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
You simply have to remind them that the most capitalist societies have hospitals, schools, libraries and fire departments. Not just socialists and communists.

Capitalism allows the people who make the money to make the decisions. Generally they make better decisions and waste less money and create more jobs and better jobs.

Socialism and Communism take away the wealth of the industry owner, and even the factories etc, and then they administer it in such a way as to waste a lot of money and pay everyone a low wage. The workers then get to line up for things like food, health care and other necessities because government is constantly having supply problems--either they lose the workers with skills to other countries (happened a lot during the Cold war era in East Germany, Russia etc) or they can't afford to buy supplies for the hospitals, (so patients in some countries must bring all the supplies in with them, including family to care for them) or supplies for the factories (so they can make widgets to export to other countries).

What eventually happens in Socialist and Communist countries is what we are seeing in Venezuela. The government takes over all the industry to "manage" it better than the "evil" capitalist. But because the average civil servant hasn't a clue how the oil industry works, they make the most expensive stupid mistakes and the industry starts to lose money.

They enact laws that basic food stuff can't cost any more than x dollars which sounds nice, but then the rice growers can't afford to keep giving rice away so the farmer goes bankrupt and for a time the communist regime gets students and mothers and grandparents to work the rice paddies in their "spare" time but they aren't rice farmers so pretty soon there's no rice on the grocery shelves. The little that comes in, is portioned out to the people who are in power, and they sell the excess on the black market.

It's how Russia used to operate, it's how it's done in North Korea, and China was like that, but has had to use some "reforms" to fix it. That is just letting farmers back to run their businesses at a bit of a profit again. Otherwise you have starvation which Russian, China, North Korea and now Venezuela have all experienced.

In Socialist countries like Canada or Sweden, there isn't enough money for everyone to enjoy welfare benefits, unlimited access to health care so there are shortages, and line ups.

Now as to how hospitals and schools and libraries REALLY got going your friend needs a quick sharp history lesson.

Hospitals and schools were originally church and some Jewish based charities. Libraries started the same way to encourage literacy. AS A CHARITY. SO WAS WELFARE. People were on the charity list at the local church. And all these charities were run on a shoestring by people who genuinely cared. And the beneficiaries of that type of welfare were not allowed to just live off welfare. They usually were encouraged to work at something to help the institution they were in stay afloat. The hospitals did charge the people who could pay, and the charity cases were written off but those institutions were run on shoestrings. NOT NOW.

The so called "poor houses" that causes a shudder whenever A Christmas Carol's Scrooge mentions them were actually what happened when welfare became a government responsibility, but too many people were on the welfare rolls. The people in the poor houses, were housed and fed, but they had to work. Some were called Work Houses. Because the Bible talks about the able bodied, needing to work. those who couldn't work, still had a place.

Were there problems? Yes. Big ones. The little chimney sweeps of Dicken's time were children who were farmed out for child labour in appalling conditions because nobody cared about them. They were tossed aside.

But eventually the people who hated church forcing them to be grateful to Christians and actually work to earn their meal decided government would run these charities of hospitals, schools and libraries better on their own away from all those Christian ideals and demands. It was cruel to the sinners to actually get them to be grateful to Christians, it was cruel to make them listen to a sermon to get saved just to get a hot meal, it was cruel to the ungodly to have charities run those places.

So government came to the rescue. And as the original charities began to be run by civil servants (bureaucrats) the level of waste rose. Bureaucrats like to be paid, and paid well. And they like to build little kingdoms with assistants and budgets and stuff that when you get right down to it, isn't necessary for the core goal of their institution.

But that is how middle management operates without a boss that likes to say YOU'RE FIRED once in a while. Or make you PROVE your worth to the company. But socialism and communism does away with those kind of bosses. They save money but in socialist countries at least the government wants to be reelected, so they want the unions on their side come election day. In communist countries, the guy who did well at that communist party meetings, said all the right stuff about the dear leader is the guy who will be the boss at the factory or hospital or fire department.

The former charities are expensive when you can't tell someone to go get a job, that you won't keep feeding his face or his children if he won't shift himself at least a little. The price controls on medications result in shortages when drug manufacturers decide not to make pills of a certain type because it isn't profitable any more. And you get libraries that think they are there to push social agendas like the Drag Queen Story Hour.
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
Well said athenasius. Socialism has always sapped the life out of whatever it touches. Entrepreneurship disappears, innovation is lost, healthcare is almost non-existent, economy is tanked, productivity is minimized, availability of produce is nil, and people stay in survival mode. It's sad how people can't see this. It will outright kill the American Dream.
 

benmcd

Well-Known Member
One thing to keep in mind with genuine leftists, is you're really debating morality, not policy. The biggest mistake conservatives make is getting bogged down in the little details, because we're trying to fix the problem at hand. The issue with that is that, leftists are not actually interested in policy; they're interested in power.

One way this works out is if your debating the welfare state. You'll put forth the argument that it hurts families, causes crime, and is financially unsustainable. But the leftist doesn't actually care about those things.

The leftist will come at you sort of like this. You want to go after the welfare state because you're a mean, grinchy, selfish Scrooge McDuck, and poor little Oliver Twist isn't getting any gruel because of you. If you weren't such an inconsiderate jerk, you'd reach into your money bin and give him a coin, feeding him for a month.

This is how the left really debates. That's why even if they're not outright slandering you, there's this undercurrent throughout their argument that you disagree with them because you are a bad person. If you were a good person you'd agree with them 100% and do what they say.

Ben Shapiro has some videos on youtube. One is called "10 Rules When Debating Leftists."

Steven Crowder is a very good debater. He has two different series. One is called "Change my Mind' and the other is called "Devil's Advocate."
 
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crossnote

Well-Known Member
When talking socialism with those that like the idea...how does one answer said idiot when they throw in your face..public schools, fire departments, libraries, hospitals, police departments...ect as Socialist ideas..paid for by our taxes and used by everyone..now as for schools..I don't believe the Government has any business in our education...Hospitals..I've always wondered who owns them..the fire and police departments I always thought were paid for by our local taxes not state or federal..and libraries i thought was local taxes..but are they a form of socialism?..if so..what do I say to a socialist? If not..how do I prove it to said Socialist...
Read the book Animal Farm. It is an expose of that false system, e.g. "all animals are created equal...some just more equal than others.'
 

ItIsFinished!

Well-Known Member
Well said athenasius. Socialism has always sapped the life out of whatever it touches. Entrepreneurship disappears, innovation is lost, healthcare is almost non-existent, economy is tanked, productivity is minimized, availability of produce is nil, and people stay in survival mode. It's sad how people can't see this. It will outright kill the American Dream.
Well said my friend.
You are absolutely correct.
 
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