Sins forgiven....past, present, future?

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
I'm working on a doctrinal series for the fall and I read this verse and it hit me that this seems to fly in the face of people who say (myself included) that Jesus forgave their sins past, present and future. I'm studying more on this verse now, but I wanted others thoughts as well. The verse is Romans 3:25.


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I'm working on a doctrinal series for the fall and I read this verse and it hit me that this seems to fly in the face of people who say (myself included) that Jesus forgave their sins past, present and future. I'm studying more on this verse now, but I wanted others thoughts as well. The verse is Romans 3:25.


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
I think Jack has a great answer, especially the bottom two paragraphs

Question: I recently read an article that claimed the Bible offers no proof that our future sins are forgiven. It says this is just an assumption that Eternal Security advocates have made. It says if that was the case we wouldn’t need Jesus to be our advocate (lawyer), and that Romans 3:24-25 proves that only our past sins were forgiven. I’ve thought of Colossians 2:13-14 “He forgave us all our sins …” as a rebuttal. Are there others?

Answer:I read the excerpts you sent me and find them to be full of theological holes. In the first place there is Scriptural proof that all our sins are forgiven. Along with Colossians 2:13-14 that you mentioned there are also Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Cor. 1:21-22 which say our inheritance was assured from the moment we believed, and that God has taken ownership of us and put His spirit in our hearts as a deposit to guarantee this. How could our inheritance be guaranteed from the moment of belief unless all the sins of our life had been forgiven?

The critical word in these passages is not seal, as the article suggests, it’s guarantee. The Greek word translated guarantee means earnest. It’s a legal term describing a deposit that obligates the purchaser to complete the transaction. When God set His mark of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts (2 Cor. 1:21-22), He was giving us His word that He would redeem us. There is nothing we or anyone else in Heaven or on Earth can do that will cause Him to break His word (John 6:38-40, John 10:27-30, Romans 8:38-39).

Similarly, Hebrews 10:14 says by His one sacrifice the Lord has made us perfect forever, and 2 Cor. 5:17,21 says if we’re in Christ we’re a new creation having the righteousness of God. (The verbs in these two verses are all in the past perfect tense. That means they’ve already happened and they are complete.)

The argument that we wouldn’t need an advocate (lawyer) if our violations were already paid for is also flawed. Common sense tells you that even if you’ve been unjustly hauled into court, you’d better have a lawyer. Remember, Satan is our accuser and he’s an unjust one at that.
And Romans 3:24-25 is being taken out of context. The past sins Paul was talking about are the ones people had committed before the cross. Because of their faith in the promised Redeemer God permitted the sacrificial system to set their sins aside until Jesus came to pay for them in full.

What you won’t find in the New Testament is any indication that having obligated Himself to save you, God will subsequently break His word and revoke His salvation. Once we are saved we are always saved.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/have-our-future-sins-already-been-forgiven/
 

Batman

Well-Known Member
I'm working on a doctrinal series for the fall and I read this verse and it hit me that this seems to fly in the face of people who say (myself included) that Jesus forgave their sins past, present and future. I'm studying more on this verse now, but I wanted others thoughts as well. The verse is Romans 3:25.


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To me not all doctrine, all truth, all fact, and all background information can be placed in every verse so a verse has a direct point but the totality of scripture is a must to ensure it doesn't get taken into the wrong direction or added to. Remission of sins is for the past, present, and future. We are fully covered with a once and forever salvation as provided by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords sacrificial death, burial and resurrection.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
A skeptical person would use a pardon as an example. If a criminal receives a full pardon, that takes away the punishment for any past crimes. It would not prevent him/her from being prosecuted for a future crime.
For the record, I believe what the previous posts said, that all our sins are forgiven. But I'm playing devil's advocate for the class.
 

ShilohRose

Well-Known Member
The NLT reads: People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when He held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he should do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when yjey believe in Jesus. Romans 3:25-26
 

lightofmylife

Blessed Hope-Prepare To Fly!
The NLT reads: People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when He held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he should do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when yjey believe in Jesus. Romans 3:25-26
Exactly stated no one is good enough, and can not earn their salvation. Jesus paid our sin debt in full past, present, and future. It is finished! :bible John 1:12-13, John 14:6, and Ephesians 2:8-13.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
OK then use John 15 (branches not remaining attached to the vine being gathered and burned.) Then explain it to me.
Save" and "salvation" are not directly subjects (or words) in Jn 15. They're arrived at by the warning in 15:2, 6, especially by the words "fire" and "burned." But "fire" and "burned" here refer to discipline, not to eternal destiny. This is because the branches are "in Me." 15:2. To be "pruned" is a dealing by the Lord. A more severe one, in the nature of true loss, is to be "taken away." Neither equals eternal condemnation. If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. 1 Cor 3:15-17.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
OK then use John 15 (branches not remaining attached to the vine being gathered and burned.) Then explain it to me.
"If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. " —John 15:6

The word translated "abide" (or "continue" or "remain," depending on which translation you use) in this verseis the Greek word μένω (meno, pronounced MEN-oh). In its use in the literature of that day, it meant to stay, to remain, to continue, to permanently abide in one place. The word actually conveys the idea of steadfastly and continuously remaining or dwelling somewhere, without leaving. So, keep that idea in mind if you want to capture the full sense of the word.

Now, to the idea of branches not remaining attached to the vine being gathered and burned, it means that these branches were never truly attached to the Vine (Christ) in the first place, because every branch that abides in Christ WILL bear fruit (John 15:5). The branch that is thrown out, then, is the one that does NOT bear fruit (John 15:2). The only way to bear fruit is to be firmly and permanently attached to Christ (John 15:4). Absent that, you cannot bear fruit. You are a dead branch that may outwardly appear to be attached to the Vine, but no sap, no life juice, from the vine flows into you. Therefore, ultimately the Father will see the false branches and take them away. A parallel would be the Parable of the Tares and the Wheat. Before the harvest, the tares will be taken away and burned (Matthew 13:29-30). So, John 15:1-8 is not speaking of Christians (the wheat/the living branches) losing their salvation because of sinful behavior but pseudo-Christians (the tares/the dead branches) never having salvation in the first place.

To the OP verse Romans 3:25: the KJV and many others are confusing because the Greek can be confusing, unless you very carefully parse the sentence. The Berean Literal translation is: "whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a showing forth of His righteousness, because of the forbearance of the sins having taken place beforehand. The Berean Study Bible translation puts this into easier language. It reads: "God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand." The idea Paul is conveying is this— God, in His forbearance had passed over the sins of the Old Testament saints who had trusted in the promise of the coming Messiah by their true and faithful offering of the sacrifices; but that propitiation was only a stop-gap until Christ came. Now that Christ had come, His blood redeemed that temporary passing over with full payment by His once-for-all sacrifice on the Cross. So Romans 3:25 is not speaking of Christ's blood only purchasing forgiveness for sins we committed prior to salvation (this implying that we now have to pay for any present or future sins we might commit. Rather, it was simply stating that the sins of the Old Testament saints which were temporarily covered were now fully and finally paid for. It's about the OT saints, not us. I pray this helps.
 

Jonathan

Well-Known Member
A skeptical person would use a pardon as an example. If a criminal receives a full pardon, that takes away the punishment for any past crimes. It would not prevent him/her from being prosecuted for a future crime.
For the record, I believe what the previous posts said, that all our sins are forgiven. But I'm playing devil's advocate for the class.
And I get ya, as far is your point being rhetorical and the stuff of "Devil's advocate." Because I believe such a belief system is not only unbiblical, but is actually seriously dangerous. And, Satanically inspired.

The two best questions I can throw at people who believe this is (please read #2, it is more "real"):

1) When Jesus died 2000 years ago to clean you, forgive you, and offer you to His Father, which sins did he die for? The past ones? the Present ones, or the future ones? Seeing as all of these sins were in the future from Jesus's perspective, I think it should be obvious that he covered all of them

2) Thanks for getting here. I have met a lot of Christians. some who were friends when I wasn't even a Christian myself. I can promise you that after accepting Jesus Christ as their savior they sinned within hours, or at best within days. The idea that, once accepting Christ, any further sin will terminate your forgiveness is void and without logic. Because you WILL sin. It is in our nature.

We aren't sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners.

It is we who have that original sin still snaking and constricting around our heart. The sins we commit are a product of our condition.
 

Brother Albert R.

Jesus loved us and said we should Love our enemies
A skeptical person would use a pardon as an example. If a criminal receives a full pardon, that takes away the punishment for any past crimes. It would not prevent him/her from being prosecuted for a future crime.
For the record, I believe what the previous posts said, that all our sins are forgiven. But I'm playing devil's advocate for the class.
1John2:1-2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1John1:7-10
7if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.
 
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RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
As an explanation, my Bible Study class will be studying 'Doctrines' in the fall. Part of that is not just making sure we understand our beliefs, but also knowing how to explain them and to refute objections. Bottom line is evangelism, getting the Christian doctrine of salvation out of our heads and hearts and into our mouths (so to speak) and sharing, proclaiming the gospel. We can't very well share what we are unclear on ourselves. So, all of your thoughts will become part of the class. I'll have more things I need help on throughout the summer. Thanks. RJS
 

Brother Albert R.

Jesus loved us and said we should Love our enemies
As an explanation, my Bible Study class will be studying 'Doctrines' in the fall. Part of that is not just making sure we understand our beliefs, but also knowing how to explain them and to refute objections. Bottom line is evangelism, getting the Christian doctrine of salvation out of our heads and hearts and into our mouths (so to speak) and sharing, proclaiming the gospel. We can't very well share what we are unclear on ourselves. So, all of your thoughts will become part of the class. I'll have more things I need help on throughout the summer. Thanks. RJS
I personally enjoy this thread and will assist with anything that I can, to help further the Gospel. You are a wonderful teacher RonJohn because you are giving your students the tools needed to reach those that God has placed in their lives. I wish that I had a bible teacher like you when I was young...(even though I did not go to church until I was 15, and even then it was on my own).
God bless you work in Him and for Him,
Brother Albert
 

twerpv

Well-Known Member
Well, I'll say this (not that you all were waiting for twerpv to weigh in:)). If we are not forgiven for current and/or future sins, then I'm in big trouble and I can't do anything about it, so I am in HIS HANDS. I won't change my worship nor my following of Jesus. He is The Christ and I will continue in that until He calls me home.

I do believe we all are forgiven past, present and future as I don't believe that anyone can live without sinning, even after they have been saved. So that would mean NO ONE would make it to heaven.

In any event, I don't think Christians should argue about this. If someone wants to argue otherwise, I'd say leave them to it.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
I'm working on a doctrinal series for the fall and I read this verse and it hit me that this seems to fly in the face of people who say (myself included) that Jesus forgave their sins past, present and future. I'm studying more on this verse now, but I wanted others thoughts as well. The verse is Romans 3:25.


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
The context for that verse is a discourse on why certain of God's people were not punished for their sin: Abraham put Sara in an adulterous situation TWICE and was not punished. Jacob tricked his brother, Esau out of his birthright--not punished (unless you consider that he himself was tricked by his father-in-law and uncle, Bethuel). David was not punished with death--even though he should have been under the Law of Moses, for ordering what was, in fact the murder of a just man, Uriah and committing adultery with Uriah's wife. People around David suffered, and it certainly must have filled him with emotional pain, but we have no record that he was punished physically. Solomon fell into grievous idolatry but he was not punished. Paul notes that they were looking forward to Messiah and were included in the mercy that He was granting through Christ. Jesus Himself noted that, "Abraham delighted to see my day."

When we go to stand before the Judge of All the Earth, all sin WILL be past--there will be no more opportunity to sin at the end of our mortal lives. Since God exists outside of time, there is no past, present and future for Him.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
I personally enjoy this thread and will assist with anything that I can, to help further the Gospel. You are a wonderful teacher RonJohn because you are giving your students the tools needed to reach those that God has placed in their lives. I wish that I had a bible teacher like you when I was young...(even though I did not go to church until I was 15, and even then it was on my own).
God bless you work in Him and for Him,
Brother Albert
Thank you for your kind words. It is way past time for people to use their gifts to address the lost. I'm glad this thread was meaningful to you.
 

Eastxn

Member
As one poster above said, the "sins that are past" is referring to the sins committed in the old testament before Jesus died. Remember that when old testament believers died they didn't go up to heaven but instead went down to paradise.

If you compare scripture with scripture you will find that Hebrews 9:14-15 says the same thing as Romans 3-25 with a little more detail

"[14]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [15]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
 

Andiamo

"Let's go!"
This made me think about "It is finished"
And how He said those words before "I" existed....let alone my sins I would commit.
I am thinking it means more than, "your debt has been paid. " But something more like "I have changed this whole thing, and this action is now carried forward from this point ."
But I looked up "finished" in Strongs and I don't know? :scratch
 

GotGrace

Well-Known Member
I think Jack has a great answer, especially the bottom two paragraphs

Question: I recently read an article that claimed the Bible offers no proof that our future sins are forgiven. It says this is just an assumption that Eternal Security advocates have made. It says if that was the case we wouldn’t need Jesus to be our advocate (lawyer), and that Romans 3:24-25 proves that only our past sins were forgiven. I’ve thought of Colossians 2:13-14 “He forgave us all our sins …” as a rebuttal. Are there others?

Answer:I read the excerpts you sent me and find them to be full of theological holes. In the first place there is Scriptural proof that all our sins are forgiven. Along with Colossians 2:13-14 that you mentioned there are also Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Cor. 1:21-22 which say our inheritance was assured from the moment we believed, and that God has taken ownership of us and put His spirit in our hearts as a deposit to guarantee this. How could our inheritance be guaranteed from the moment of belief unless all the sins of our life had been forgiven?

The critical word in these passages is not seal, as the article suggests, it’s guarantee. The Greek word translated guarantee means earnest. It’s a legal term describing a deposit that obligates the purchaser to complete the transaction. When God set His mark of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts (2 Cor. 1:21-22), He was giving us His word that He would redeem us. There is nothing we or anyone else in Heaven or on Earth can do that will cause Him to break His word (John 6:38-40, John 10:27-30, Romans 8:38-39).

Similarly, Hebrews 10:14 says by His one sacrifice the Lord has made us perfect forever, and 2 Cor. 5:17,21 says if we’re in Christ we’re a new creation having the righteousness of God. (The verbs in these two verses are all in the past perfect tense. That means they’ve already happened and they are complete.)

The argument that we wouldn’t need an advocate (lawyer) if our violations were already paid for is also flawed. Common sense tells you that even if you’ve been unjustly hauled into court, you’d better have a lawyer. Remember, Satan is our accuser and he’s an unjust one at that.
And Romans 3:24-25 is being taken out of context. The past sins Paul was talking about are the ones people had committed before the cross. Because of their faith in the promised Redeemer God permitted the sacrificial system to set their sins aside until Jesus came to pay for them in full.

What you won’t find in the New Testament is any indication that having obligated Himself to save you, God will subsequently break His word and revoke His salvation. Once we are saved we are always saved.

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/have-our-future-sins-already-been-forgiven/
Beautiful answers.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
I'm working on a doctrinal series for the fall and I read this verse and it hit me that this seems to fly in the face of people who say (myself included) that Jesus forgave their sins past, present and future. I'm studying more on this verse now, but I wanted others thoughts as well. The verse is Romans 3:25.


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
As others have pointed out, these “sins that are past” refer to sins committed prior to our Lord’s incarnation and death.

I remember hearing, a long time ago, that there was a teaching that Old Testament saints all went to Hell, because they died prior to Jesus’s death on the cross. They didn’t suffer torment, but they weren’t allowed into heaven. I might have misunderstood what was being explained, but that was how I took it. It had something to do with Dante’s “Divine Comedy”.

Aside from that, if Jesus’s death only covered sins committed prior to the point that a believer places his trust in Jesus, then does Jesus have to die again for sins committed after that point? Because it is only Jesus’s blood that can cleanse one from sin.
 
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