Seventh Day Adventist

pythons

Member
Everlasting Life,

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, the SDA's do 'diminish' Jesus in a very specific way that dove-tails into their historic anti-Trinitarian beginnings.

Ellen White initially was a Methodist (Trinitarian) however she started dating & subsequently married James White - who was a militant anti-Trinitarian. In the process of Ellen being bedded down and bred by James Ellen changed her views and allegedly started having anti-Trinitarian visions and proclivities to feverishly promote anti-Trinity rhetoric - which she did.

To understand the SDA mindset one must 1st understand "The Great Controversy Theme". Ellen White wrote a book called "The Great Controversy" which, for the most part, encapsulates SDA theology and process. Basically "The Theme" described by Ellen is that.

A)
After Adam & Eve eat of the forbidden fruit & get expelled from Eden Lucifer the archangel makes a "legal charge" against God that nobody could follow His Laws, that He was too strict with Adam & Eve, was too ham handed with them, etc. Lucifer promulgated this legal charge both throughout the angelic ranks AND published the charge to all the Alien planets throughout the Galaxy - angels and aliens were whispering - could this be true - is God unreasonable and too difficult?

B)
God was NOW in a real pickle - hauled into Galactic court on trumped up charges by Lucifer the archangel - SOMETHING HAD TO BE DONE.

C)
Michael the archangel steps forward and volunteers to "RISK IT ALL" and be born as a human with "concupiscence" to attempt to eek out Salvation for mankind. IF Michael fails Father God will see to it that Michael is smitten and annihilated eternally. If Michael makes it he will become the Christ. Thus, Michael came to earth to "VINDICATE GOD'S HOLY LAW" proving that God is fair & just, essentially proving to the Galaxy that Lucifer is a liar, the Father of Lies.

The total fight from beginning to end IS "The Great Controversy" and the "Theme" is simply understanding why Michael came to earth and the terrible risks he accepted by volunteering for the mission. Understanding this helps to understand where the SDA's are coming from and why they see everything the way they do. To be honest if I believed in the GC Theme I would believe like they do.

Here are a few examples of what I'm illustrating.


Ellen White
To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.


Ellen White
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Christ did not come to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He did not come to lessen the law of God in one particular. He came to express in His own person the love of God. He came to vindicate every precept of the holy law.--Ms 145, 1897, p. 4. ("Notes of Work," Dec. 30, 1897.) {11MR 345.3}

Ellen White
The sum and substance of the arguments of Satan is that sin may be immortalized, that Christ abolished the law, and that evil doers may be in favor with God. But the death of Christ tells a different story; for he died to vindicate the claims of the law, to give to the world and to angels an unanswerable argument of the immutability of the law of Jehovah. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 11}

Ellen participated in Michaels work of vindication.

Ellen White

Satan will continue to bring in his erroneous theories and to claim that his sentiments are true. Seducing spirits are at work. I am to meet the danger positively, denying the right of anyone to use my writings to serve the devil's purpose to allure and deceive the people of God. God has spared my life that I may present the testimonies given me, to vindicate that which God vindicates, and to denounce every sophistry [intended] to deceive if possible the very elect.--Ms 126, 1905, pp. 3, 7. ("A Warning Against Present Dangers," typed December 29, 1905.) {5MR 144.1}


The SDA's view Ellen as a Prophet and as such her writings are a more clear set of instructions on those distinctive doctrines SDA adhere to. Ellen is believed to be God's actual PEN - this is why many SDA's refer to Sister White as "THE PEN OF INSPIRATION".

Ellen White
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)

Ellen White
If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 66).

Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is NOT represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, NOT His pen." (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One "The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers")

Ellen White
"God has set me as a reprover of His people; and just so surely as He has laid upon me the heavy burden, He will make those to whom this message is given responsible for the manner in which they treat it. God will not be trifled with, and those who despise His work will receive according to their deeds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 679)


Unlike the Bible writers Ellen was allegedly provided with the specific words to use.

Ellen White
There are those who say, ‘Someone MANIPULATES her writings.’ I acknowledge the charge. It is One who is mighty in counsel, One who presents before me the condition of things” (1MR 30).

Ellen White
We MUST follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings]. ... God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy." (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298)


When you speak with a fully trained Seventh-day Adventist its helpful to know these things (and a great many others) are solidly locked in their mind. As I've said earlier there are some great Christian men and women in the SDA Church - some really do accept the Trinity and reject the Arian creature Christ teaching of Ellen White - it's just that they are not very vocal about it.
 

gregb4hope

Active Member
There is a really good book - called "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin This book is a crucial tool in countercult ministry and in evangelism. Among cults and religions included are: Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, New Age Cults, the Unification Church, Baha'i Faith, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and many more. It delves into their basic beliefs and history
What ia so sad and yet surprising is the size and wealth and logistics of these ministries of false doctrine. I can see why there are so many tribulation saints in Revelations. It,s about Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit not names on buildings and titles of men or women.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Everlasting Life,

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, the SDA's do 'diminish' Jesus in a very specific way that dove-tails into their historic anti-Trinitarian beginnings.

Ellen White initially was a Methodist (Trinitarian) however she started dating & subsequently married James White - who was a militant anti-Trinitarian. In the process of Ellen being bedded down and bred by James Ellen changed her views and allegedly started having anti-Trinitarian visions and proclivities to feverishly promote anti-Trinity rhetoric - which she did.

To understand the SDA mindset one must 1st understand "The Great Controversy Theme". Ellen White wrote a book called "The Great Controversy" which, for the most part, encapsulates SDA theology and process. Basically "The Theme" described by Ellen is that.

A)
After Adam & Eve eat of the forbidden fruit & get expelled from Eden Lucifer the archangel makes a "legal charge" against God that nobody could follow His Laws, that He was too strict with Adam & Eve, was too ham handed with them, etc. Lucifer promulgated this legal charge both throughout the angelic ranks AND published the charge to all the Alien planets throughout the Galaxy - angels and aliens were whispering - could this be true - is God unreasonable and too difficult?

B)
God was NOW in a real pickle - hauled into Galactic court on trumped up charges by Lucifer the archangel - SOMETHING HAD TO BE DONE.

C)
Michael the archangel steps forward and volunteers to "RISK IT ALL" and be born as a human with "concupiscence" to attempt to eek out Salvation for mankind. IF Michael fails Father God will see to it that Michael is smitten and annihilated eternally. If Michael makes it he will become the Christ. Thus, Michael came to earth to "VINDICATE GOD'S HOLY LAW" proving that God is fair & just, essentially proving to the Galaxy that Lucifer is a liar, the Father of Lies.

The total fight from beginning to end IS "The Great Controversy" and the "Theme" is simply understanding why Michael came to earth and the terrible risks he accepted by volunteering for the mission. Understanding this helps to understand where the SDA's are coming from and why they see everything the way they do. To be honest if I believed in the GC Theme I would believe like they do.

Here are a few examples of what I'm illustrating.


Ellen White
To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.


Ellen White
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Christ did not come to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. He did not come to lessen the law of God in one particular. He came to express in His own person the love of God. He came to vindicate every precept of the holy law.--Ms 145, 1897, p. 4. ("Notes of Work," Dec. 30, 1897.) {11MR 345.3}

Ellen White
The sum and substance of the arguments of Satan is that sin may be immortalized, that Christ abolished the law, and that evil doers may be in favor with God. But the death of Christ tells a different story; for he died to vindicate the claims of the law, to give to the world and to angels an unanswerable argument of the immutability of the law of Jehovah. {ST, February 5, 1894 par. 11}

Ellen participated in Michaels work of vindication.

Ellen White

Satan will continue to bring in his erroneous theories and to claim that his sentiments are true. Seducing spirits are at work. I am to meet the danger positively, denying the right of anyone to use my writings to serve the devil's purpose to allure and deceive the people of God. God has spared my life that I may present the testimonies given me, to vindicate that which God vindicates, and to denounce every sophistry [intended] to deceive if possible the very elect.--Ms 126, 1905, pp. 3, 7. ("A Warning Against Present Dangers," typed December 29, 1905.) {5MR 144.1}


The SDA's view Ellen as a Prophet and as such her writings are a more clear set of instructions on those distinctive doctrines SDA adhere to. Ellen is believed to be God's actual PEN - this is why many SDA's refer to Sister White as "THE PEN OF INSPIRATION".

Ellen White
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)

Ellen White
If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum" (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 66).

Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is NOT represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, NOT His pen." (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One "The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers")

Ellen White
"God has set me as a reprover of His people; and just so surely as He has laid upon me the heavy burden, He will make those to whom this message is given responsible for the manner in which they treat it. God will not be trifled with, and those who despise His work will receive according to their deeds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 679)


Unlike the Bible writers Ellen was allegedly provided with the specific words to use.

Ellen White
There are those who say, ‘Someone MANIPULATES her writings.’ I acknowledge the charge. It is One who is mighty in counsel, One who presents before me the condition of things” (1MR 30).

Ellen White
We MUST follow the directions given through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings]. ... God has spoken to us through His Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy." (Testimonies, Vol. 8, p. 298)


When you speak with a fully trained Seventh-day Adventist its helpful to know these things (and a great many others) are solidly locked in their mind. As I've said earlier there are some great Christian men and women in the SDA Church - some really do accept the Trinity and reject the Arian creature Christ teaching of Ellen White - it's just that they are not very vocal about it.
Reading this, anyone versed at all in the truth of Scripture can see what a load of imaginative bull dung it all is. Sadly, too many read books rather than the Bible and thus are easily lured into error.
 

pythons

Member
Reading this, anyone versed at all in the truth of Scripture can see what a load of imaginative bull dung it all is. Sadly, too many read books rather than the Bible and thus are easily lured into error.

Ironically, that is exactly the charge Ellen White made against 'the Babylon churches' (those churches who worship on Sunday, eat pork & teach that the soul continues after death of the body).

Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, November 9, 1886
The holy Bible is neglected in many homes because so many other things are allowed to crowd it out. Center tables are covered with fictitious literature, newspapers, magazines, albums, and trinkets; and although the Book of books may be there also, its covers are seldom if ever opened by the younger members of the household, because of the ever-present temptation in the form of some alluring tale. Love for solid thought and reading is little cultivated by such literature

What stuns me is that SDA scholars (in good standing with the SDA Church) formally admit that the SDA Church taught heretical doctrines long prior to and after 1886. The individual who affirmed these heretical doctrines (Ellen White) lectures that at the time "the holy Bible is neglected"??? That has to rank toward the most hypocritical statements ever made.
 

pythons

Member
Dr. Ben Carson is a SDA to my understanding. A fine man, I hope I'm mistaken.

I believe he is a fine man. Given his accomplishments in the medical field I'd say the odds are that most of his time has been spent in study of medical applications and science. I very much doubt he's spent anytime testing Ellen White's affirmation that Jesus could have sinned and eternally ceased to exist against Scripture.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
A)
After Adam & Eve eat of the forbidden fruit & get expelled from Eden Lucifer the archangel makes a "legal charge" against God that nobody could follow His Laws, that He was too strict with Adam & Eve, was too ham handed with them, etc. Lucifer promulgated this legal charge both throughout the angelic ranks AND published the charge to all the Alien planets throughout the Galaxy - angels and aliens were whispering - could this be true - is God unreasonable and too difficult?

B)
God was NOW in a real pickle - hauled into Galactic court on trumped up charges by Lucifer the archangel - SOMETHING HAD TO BE DONE.

C)
Michael the archangel steps forward and volunteers to "RISK IT ALL" and be born as a human with "concupiscence" to attempt to eek out Salvation for mankind. IF Michael fails Father God will see to it that Michael is smitten and annihilated eternally. If Michael makes it he will become the Christ. Thus, Michael came to earth to "VINDICATE GOD'S HOLY LAW" proving that God is fair & just, essentially proving to the Galaxy that Lucifer is a liar, the Father of Lies.

The total fight from beginning to end IS "The Great Controversy" and the "Theme" is simply understanding why Michael came to earth and the terrible risks he accepted by volunteering for the mission. Understanding this helps to understand where the SDA's are coming from and why they see everything the way they do. To be honest if I believed in the GC Theme I would believe like they do.

Her re-written stories almost reminds me of Greek mythology.

And, wow, some of those quotes are disturbing. The way she goes on is like the modern day 'apostle' wannabe's running around claiming authority for their tripe and telling people that all sorts of awful things will happen to them if they don't obey or follow them or dare to question their ramblings. Like them, she has lessened people's confidence in the Word of God, the Bible where complete truth is found. I do believe that's not something God would be pleased with. The Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for actually double checking the Good News he was sharing, and a good teacher of the Word of God would encourage this as well.

Funny how she quotes John about Jesus Christ but misses the passages about not giving brothers and sisters in Christ a hard time for what day they worship God:

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. Romans 14:5-6


Just more confirmation that throwing her material out and sticking with the Word was a good way to go. But as you said Pythons, understanding the mindset is good. As I'm thinking, perhaps passages about the preeminence and authority of God's word might be helpful along with how the Sabbath points to our ultimate Sabbath, Christ to come.

I have to say, it took years for me to grasp these things, and by God's grace and patient kindness as He opened my mind in understanding of His Word little by little, praise God! I do believe it really took the Holy Spirit to do this, which makes me think that our prayers for God to send His Spirit to help people in this belief system is important. :)
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Not sure this is the right spot for this question. What’s the story with seventh-day Adventist’s? They seem to be extremely dogmatic about Saturday being the sabbath. They peg the RCC as Babylon and all other denominations as “daughters” of the RCC. From what I can gather you may be a Christian if you are say a Baptist but you are being deceived first and for most by not worshipping on the real Sabbath. That the RCC “changed times” by moving worship from Saturday to Sunday. They seem very sure if themselves and the rest of us are deceived. Curious if anyone has any insight to the seventh day Adventist’s.
The early Church met and worshipped on the "first day of the week"--i.e. Sunday. (Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2) although many met as a church every day. I don't know why the Seventh Day Adventists are so stuck on that point. We are Gentiles and we do not do ritual Sabbath observance, as the Jews were required to do under the Law of Moses. Interestingly, it is the only one of the Ten Commandments not especially affirmed by Jesus. He merely said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." By way of explanation, the pagan nations would often work their slaves to death (giving them little food and requiring at least 7, 12-hour days of work from them per week. God actually put a lot of provisions in His regulations to protect workers from such a thing. I believe that the Sabbath (when NO work could be done, either by God's people or their servants) was meant as a protection. The Western culture was informed by Christianity to the point where those protections were mostly unneeded. Child labour laws were pushed by Christians who were appalled by the godless men who required children to work until they dropped. It is still that way in cultures untouched by the gospel. In Pakistan, they have children as young as three, chained to work benches, doing hand work. :(
 

pythons

Member
The early Church met and worshipped on the "first day of the week"--i.e. Sunday. (Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2) although many met as a church every day. I don't know why the Seventh Day Adventists are so stuck on that point. We are Gentiles and we do not do ritual Sabbath observance, as the Jews were required to do under the Law of Moses. Interestingly, it is the only one of the Ten Commandments not especially affirmed by Jesus. He merely said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." By way of explanation, the pagan nations would often work their slaves to death (giving them little food and requiring at least 7, 12-hour days of work from them per week. God actually put a lot of provisions in His regulations to protect workers from such a thing. I believe that the Sabbath (when NO work could be done, either by God's people or their servants) was meant as a protection. The Western culture was informed by Christianity to the point where those protections were mostly unneeded. Child labour laws were pushed by Christians who were appalled by the godless men who required children to work until they dropped. It is still that way in cultures untouched by the gospel. In Pakistan, they have children as young as three, chained to work benches, doing hand work. :(

From my research into SDA rubrics on the Sabbath it seems that once the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers adopted it Ellen White started pounding out visions and "inspired" commentary about the matter.

Ellen White
It means eternal salvation TO keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord.God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." 1 Samuel 2:30. {6T 356.4}

The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church.” ... “The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark.” (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281).

Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast.” ... “The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God.” (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith; pages 170, 183).

Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible.” (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23).


The concept they have is that Father God was watching Michael VERY CLOSE, making sure that he obeyed the Sabbath while participating in the Great Controversy. Had Michael Christ disobeyed it - things would have gone to pot rather quickly.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
From my research into SDA rubrics on the Sabbath it seems that once the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers adopted it Ellen White started pounding out visions and "inspired" commentary about the matter.

Ellen White
It means eternal salvation TO keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord.God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." 1 Samuel 2:30. {6T 356.4}

The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church.” ... “The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark.” (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281).

Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast.” ... “The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God.” (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith; pages 170, 183).

Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible.” (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23).


The concept they have is that Father God was watching Michael VERY CLOSE, making sure that he obeyed the Sabbath while participating in the Great Controversy. Had Michael Christ disobeyed it - things would have gone to pot rather quickly.
From my research into SDA rubrics on the Sabbath it seems that once the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers adopted it Ellen White started pounding out visions and "inspired" commentary about the matter.

Ellen White
It means eternal salvation TO keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord.God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." 1 Samuel 2:30. {6T 356.4}

The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church.” ... “The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark.” (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281).

Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast.” ... “The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God.” (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith; pages 170, 183).

Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible.” (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23).


The concept they have is that Father God was watching Michael VERY CLOSE, making sure that he obeyed the Sabbath while participating in the Great Controversy. Had Michael Christ disobeyed it - things would have gone to pot rather quickly.
Oh brother! It is amazing to me the amount of theological nonsense that various "prophets" can conjure up! Too bad they didn't read in Revelation 19:10--"For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus." Who is "Michael Christ"??
 

pythons

Member
Oh brother! It is amazing to me the amount of theological nonsense that various "prophets" can conjure up! Too bad they didn't read in Revelation 19:10--"For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus." Who is "Michael Christ"??

In SDA theology Michael the archangel yearned to be the Christ & "volunteered" to come to earth in an attempt to "vindicate God's Holy law". Therefore, there was REAL risk of failure and had there been failure the SDA's teach that Christ would have been slain for good and passed out of existence "eternally". This is in stark contrast to Sacred Scriptures repeated affirmations that God Himself would come to save us.


Isaiah 35,4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompenece; he will come and save you.

Vs.

Charles S Longacre
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God
, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth.
The Deity of Christ’, paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

The historic Christian position was that God the Son was eternally The Christ and the Incarnation, to state simply, was that God became man WITHOUT ceasing to be God.

The SDA's were anti-Trinitarian and believed that God (a flesh hominid with members, parts and organs) was the Father ONLY.

Sabbath Herald November 14, 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; but that the Father ALONE is supremely, or absolutely, good; and that he ALONE is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our Savior himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26. This would be singular language for one to use who had life in his essential nature, just as much as the Father. To meet such a view, it should read thus: For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath the Son life in himself If as Trinitarians argue, the Divine nature of the Son hath life in himself (i. e., is self existent) just the same, and in as absolute a sense, as the Father

Eventually the SDA's started to use the word "Trinity" and affirm they were Trinitarians, however, they pour a new and alien definition into the term so that it means something radically different than a Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Eastern Orthodox or Evangelical Christian would define. To SDA's today the Trinity is 3 Beings (god's) who are united in mind and purpose - like a committee where all members agree in total all the time. Ellen White describes how the oneness is to be understood.

Ellen White

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; that they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me. And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me." John 17:20-23. Wonderful statement! The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person." It is thus that God and Christ are one. {8T 269.4}

This isn't said once or twice but scores of times. Needless to say the Disciples of Christ were not God.

If Michael WOULD HAVE FAILED he woudn't have become the Christ, therefore, Michael the archangel HAD THE POTENTIAL to become the Christ if He didn't mess up.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian
TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, Sept 12, 1893

Was Christ the God of Israel?

Who was this being who thus called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son? Was it "THE KING ETERNAL, IMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God" OR was it Immanuel?
 

Baby Yoda

Watchman
ust the other day I was reading in 2 Corinthians and observed a verse that in essence lays out the trinity. It's a beautiful verse showcasing the three persons of God and their particular administrations to the children of God:

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Cor 13:14


I remember coming across a book as a younger christian and just feeling uneasy and anxious about what I was reading (our family was in essence taking a crash course on Christianity after leaving the cult as we knew nothing about the historical landscape of Christianity). It finally dawned on me to look up the author, who was Ellen White. I had started to become more aware of her group and immediately realized why I was having a hard time with her book, not to mention a feel of a lack of grace. It was very works based, missing that Christ did the work for us. That book was tossed firmly in the garbage!

:)
 
Reading this, anyone versed at all in the truth of Scripture can see what a load of imaginative bull dung it all is. Sadly, too many read books rather than the Bible and thus are easily lured into error.
So true. JW's reach for their 'Watchtower', the rambling musings and thoughts of their leaders. Their stated definition of what truth is? Some of their slogans from the Watchtower are; "All lies are untruths, but not all untruths are lies", also, "even Jesus had to lie", also, "It's okay to hide the truth from those it doesn't belong to".

I've been studying cults for years.

The JWs, Armstrong-ites, and several others are off-shoots of the SDA. Most have virtually all the same doctrine, and an adherence to Alexander Campbell and his "Restoration Principle", which is their biggest error. AC postulated that Emporer Constantine 'stole' the christians church from Jesus with trinitarian 'error' and thus Jesus has been waiting almost 15 centuries for someone brilliant enough to restore it. Can you imagine the audacity of this error?

A common thread among SDA'ers and their numerous off-shoots are their rejection of the divinity of Jesus. Most of them proclaim him as more of a role model, than a savior or God. Ever see the JW's argument of why Thomas called Jesus, "My lord and my God"? They then spin about the difference between a lower case "g", as if it was okay to call Jesus "a god", instead of "The God". And to let Jesus not correct Thomas would have made him a sinner, because if Jesus was not God, he then broke one of the ten commandments. They have no answer.

Anytime the divinity of Jesus is questioned, many verses in the Bible become lies as a result. They are based directly on his divinity. Jesus becomes a bit character in the Bible instead of the star. A cosmic buddy, role model, a designated hitter coming in to bat at calvary when no one else was available.
 

pythons

Member
So true. JW's reach for their 'Watchtower', the rambling musings and thoughts of their leaders. Their stated definition of what truth is? Some of their slogans from the Watchtower are; "All lies are untruths, but not all untruths are lies", also, "even Jesus had to lie", also, "It's okay to hide the truth from those it doesn't belong to".

I've been studying cults for years.

The JWs, Armstrong-ites, and several others are off-shoots of the SDA. Most have virtually all the same doctrine, and an adherence to Alexander Campbell and his "Restoration Principle", which is their biggest error. AC postulated that Emporer Constantine 'stole' the christians church from Jesus with trinitarian 'error' and thus Jesus has been waiting almost 15 centuries for someone brilliant enough to restore it. Can you imagine the audacity of this error?

A common thread among SDA'ers and their numerous off-shoots are their rejection of the divinity of Jesus. Most of them proclaim him as more of a role model, than a savior or God. Ever see the JW's argument of why Thomas called Jesus, "My lord and my God"? They then spin about the difference between a lower case "g", as if it was okay to call Jesus "a god", instead of "The God". And to let Jesus not correct Thomas would have made him a sinner, because if Jesus was not God, he then broke one of the ten commandments. They have no answer.

Anytime the divinity of Jesus is questioned, many verses in the Bible become lies as a result. They are based directly on his divinity. Jesus becomes a bit character in the Bible instead of the star. A cosmic buddy, role model, a designated hitter coming in to bat at calvary when no one else was available.


Sabbath Herald, Ellen White Sept 4, 1900
"As a member of the human family he was mortal, but as a God he was the fountain of life to the world."
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
This is where knowing the Word of God is so important! I'm just going to share some passages for the sake of anyone reading that's needing biblical clarity.


John the Baptist proclaims very clearly and from the very beginning of the book of John that Jesus Christ is God:


In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.
He existed in the beginning with God.
God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.


John 1:1-3




Here's what God says in the bible in regards to what happened in the beginning:


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1


Simple, powerful passages that easily cuts through such false teachings. John, right off the bat identifies who Jesus Christ is (Lamb of the world, the Word, God Himself, through Whom the heavens and earth were created. This lines up with Genesis and many other passages.

He is the light of the world:

The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
God sent a man, John the Baptist, to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.


John 1:5-6


Isaiah the Prophet wrote about this coming light:


The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
a light has dawned
on those living in the land of darkness.


Isaiah 9:2


And in the same chapter, describing this light he says something quite interesting, this light is called Mighty God among other powerful aspects:


For a child will be born for us,
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on His shoulders.
He will be named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
The dominion will be vast,
and its prosperity will never end.
He will reign on the throne of David
and over his kingdom,
to establish and sustain it
with justice and righteousness from now on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this.
vs 6-7

Again, a powerful God, working in His sovereign will to ensure this will certainly come to pass. Only a powerful God, who created all the universe would be able to predict, plan, speak as if it's already happened because of the great certainty of His faithfulness, and then at the right time do just as He said He would. And, at every step was fully in control, right up to His death on the cross. :nod

Notice the power and authority here that Jesus speaks with:


“The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.” John 10:17-18


This passage clearly shows that there was absolutely no doubt, whiff or hint that Jesus Christ might fail. Praise God!!

So then the Apostle Paul can say:

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.” Galatians 2:16
 

pythons

Member
This is where knowing the Word of God is so important! I'm just going to share some passages for the sake of anyone reading that's needing biblical clarity.


John the Baptist proclaims very clearly and from the very beginning of the book of John that Jesus Christ is God:


In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.
He existed in the beginning with God.
God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.


John 1:1-3




Here's what God says in the bible in regards to what happened in the beginning:


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:1


Simple, powerful passages that easily cuts through such false teachings. John, right off the bat identifies who Jesus Christ is (Lamb of the world, the Word, God Himself, through Whom the heavens and earth were created. This lines up with Genesis and many other passages.

He is the light of the world:

The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
God sent a man, John the Baptist, to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.


John 1:5-6


Isaiah the Prophet wrote about this coming light:


The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
a light has dawned
on those living in the land of darkness.


Isaiah 9:2


And in the same chapter, describing this light he says something quite interesting, this light is called Mighty God among other powerful aspects:


For a child will be born for us,
a son will be given to us,
and the government will be on His shoulders.
He will be named
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
The dominion will be vast,
and its prosperity will never end.
He will reign on the throne of David
and over his kingdom,
to establish and sustain it
with justice and righteousness from now on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord of Hosts will accomplish this.
vs 6-7

Again, a powerful God, working in His sovereign will to ensure this will certainly come to pass. Only a powerful God, who created all the universe would be able to predict, plan, speak as if it's already happened because of the great certainty of His faithfulness, and then at the right time do just as He said He would. And, at every step was fully in control, right up to His death on the cross. :nod

Notice the power and authority here that Jesus speaks with:


“The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.” John 10:17-18


This passage clearly shows that there was absolutely no doubt, whiff or hint that Jesus Christ might fail. Praise God!!

So then the Apostle Paul can say:

Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.” Galatians 2:16

Awesome Scriptures EL!

As you are likely aware the SDA's have a "caveat" to how they define it.

Adventist Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878

Bible question to the editor

Q. But does it not say that the Word was God?

A. Yes, and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God of course he is properly called God. This is his name, but he was NOT THE VERY and ETERNAL God Himself for it says that he was with God

&

Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, Sept 12, 1893


Was Christ the God of Israel?

Who was this being who thus called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son? Was it "THE KING ETERNAL, IMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God" OR was it Immanuel?
 

Len

Well-Known Member
Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, Sept 12, 1893


Was Christ the God of Israel?

Who was this being who thus called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son? Was it "THE KING ETERNAL, IMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God" OR was it Immanuel?
a very interesting observation by the SDA......... but craftily deceptive and bound to confuse anyone like me .....
 

annieforjesus

Well-Known Member
This is one interesting thread..I had no idea of all of the false teaching of the SDA church..had a next door neighbor who was one, years ago, but she was mainly obsessed with their strict dietary rules and liked to condemn me for eating pork chops.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald, Sept 12, 1893


Was Christ the God of Israel?

Who was this being who thus called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son? Was it "THE KING ETERNAL, IMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God" OR was it Immanuel?

Let me make this simple--

"Who was this being who this called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son?" Yes.

"Was it 'THE KING ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God' OR was it Immanuel?" Yes.
 

pythons

Member
Let me make this simple--

"Who was this being who this called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son?" Yes.

"Was it 'THE KING ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God' OR was it Immanuel?" Yes.

Well said answer to that blasphemous question!

The SDA's have a strong aversion to the Council of Nicaea and the Creed produced by it. While SDA's use the word Trinity they mean something radically different than Churches that accept the Council of Nicaea as valid. I'm trying to find an official statement about just what it is that the SDA Church finds "unbiblical" about the Nicene Creed and subsequently the Trinity doctrine as accepted by Lutheran's and Baptists. I'm thinking it has to surrounding the "SUBSTANCE".

SDA's hold that Jesus & "God" are ONE in the exact same way that Jesus and His Disciples were ONE...
...As Jesus' Disciples were not and never will be God this SDA teaching is difficult fathom , at least to me.
...The only thing I'm getting out of it is that Jesus isn't God any more than the Disciples were / are Jesus.

If someone here knows what it is the SDA's claim is unbiblical about the Trinity Doctrine the Lutheran's and Baptists believe throw me a bone and let me know.
 
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