Refuting Calvinism

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
It's just a sign of the times. The Lord will separate the wheat from the weeds eventually. Prayer helps convict the theologically confused.
That's a good point. I'm part of a homeschool page for this particular curriculum I was interested in. Little did I know it's just a home for Reformed believers. Oh my Lord. I asked if the curriculum was Reformed because I didn't want to have to clarify the errors all of the time with my kids. Oh boy, I stirred the wasps nests. :oops:

That should probably be a red flag in itself. Lol
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
Did you say it like that? :laugh :laugh
I did! Lol

I wasn't expecting there to be so many Reformed believers on that page. I'm actually really shocked by how widespread Reformed Theology is in homeschooling circles. It took me by surprise.

Some definitely were offended but that's their problem. Most were helpful and a few expressed the same concerns. Someone came to my defense and told one nasty lady to get over her feelings and respect that I have a different belief. One even included a picture of a page that bothered her. It's a shame some of the women on there were nasty and took it personal.

What's funny is they were trying to refute my stance but didn't use anything substantial. I shared verses and the article from the Berean Call. Hopefully somebody was blessed by that.
 
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Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
I'm part of a homeschool page for this particular curriculum I was interested in. Little did I know it's just a home for Reformed believers. Oh my Lord. I asked if the curriculum was Reformed because I didn't want to have to clarify the errors all of the time with my kids. Oh boy, I stirred the wasps nests. :oops:

I wonder how much theology really is in these curriculums? Especially at the early levels. I am sure you could just skip the John Calvin/Augustine fawning sections.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
I wonder how much theology really is in these curriculums? Especially at the early levels. I am sure you could just skip the John Calvin/Augustine fawning sections.
That's what I was trying to figure out for the older levels. I have no idea. I emailed the company for that particular curriculum and a few others to see what they'll tell me.

I was hoping for more specifics but I just kept getting that it was here and there but not pronounced. Yet most of those responses were from Reformed believers so who knows how sensitive they would be to it anyways.
 

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Calvinism frustrates God's grace and actually limits it.
They encroach upon the sovereignty of God in an unscriptural manner.
They add attributes to God that are not harmonious with His very Word.
They create a salvation of uncertainty (another gospel) that actually puts you in bondage rather than at liberty.
 

JSTyler

Well-Known Member
Calvinism frustrates God's grace and actually limits it.
They encroach upon the sovereignty of God in an unscriptural manner.
They add attributes to God that are not harmonious with His very Word.
They create a salvation of uncertainty (another gospel) that actually puts you in bondage rather than at liberty.
And in my experience, they have no personal faith relationship with Jesus Christ...not all for certain, but more than a majority. I refuse to engage with any of them any longer. They hold to an elastic interpretation of scripture, they reject Israel, they have disdain for Jewish people, they don't understand what eternal or everlasting means when God flatly states it, they reject the pre-trib rapture, they have erased Christ's millennial reign from God's Word, they firmly believe that satan is currently bound, they diminish the heavenly throne to David's earthly (albeit vital) throne, they allegorize absolutely anything and everything they don't understand and or refuse to try and understand, they have unsettling reverence for Augustine, Calvin and Luther...and this list could go on and on. They are the nastiest "christian" people I have had the sad displeasure to associate with. How can you claim to know who Jesus Christ is when your most fundamental beliefs reject what He said about Himself, His Father and how a human can come to know Him in an eternal relationship?

When you dig down deep enough you find that they don't believe that there's any personal requirement to place their faith/trust/hope/belief/or anything in Jesus Christ. It was all done for them, is all done for them and will be all done for them via God's-will-be-done, fore-ordination and predestination. They have no part in salvanic transformation, no will, no choice...they're simply winners in the divine roulette game. Or, maybe better yet, they see it as God's cosmic pick the petals off the daisy game, "I love them, I love them not".

Is it a relationship when only one side commits?
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
This thread might be helpful, Matthew 6:33 was mentioning a list from a woman who had many points of refutation, I believe it may be in this thread:

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/calvinism.123765/page-2#post-843086201


Something to keep in mind is that while we are fortunate to be alert to this, to be careful to be Christlike in our responses when interacting with others. Presenting the Word in gentleness, kindness and love is important for that's where hearts may soften and ears may listen a bit more carefully.

While we may actually be dealing with other believers in Christ (and those who are not), who are still maturing and growing in Christ (in some cases) it's good to keep this posture in mind:

A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

2 Timothy 2:24-26




So, the things we are learning about Calvinism are helpful but I've found that gentle (and prayerfully) sharing the truth of God's Word helps keep defenses down and hearts open. I say this because I was a true believer but almost went down the Calvinism path. It was the gentle presentation of God's Word, persistently explained that kept me safe, praise God.

Of course, as parents we do need to protect our kiddos from teaching that impair their understanding of God's wonderful grace but don't let exasperation keep you from that Christlike gentleness needed in interacting with others (and I'm talking to myself here as well). :)
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
And in my experience, they have no personal faith relationship with Jesus Christ...not all for certain, but more than a majority. I refuse to engage with any of them any longer. They hold to an elastic interpretation of scripture, they reject Israel, they have disdain for Jewish people, they don't understand what eternal or everlasting means when God flatly states it, they reject the pre-trib rapture, they have erased Christ's millennial reign from God's Word, they firmly believe that satan is currently bound, they diminish the heavenly throne to David's earthly (albeit vital) throne, they allegorize absolutely anything and everything they don't understand and or refuse to try and understand, they have unsettling reverence for Augustine, Calvin and Luther...and this list could go on and on. They are the nastiest "christian" people I have had the sad displeasure to associate with. How can you claim to know who Jesus Christ is when your most fundamental beliefs reject what He said about Himself, His Father and how a human can come to know Him in an eternal relationship?

When you dig down deep enough you find that they don't believe that there's any personal requirement to place their faith/trust/hope/belief/or anything in Jesus Christ. It was all done for them, is all done for them and will be all done for them via God's-will-be-done, fore-ordination and predestination. They have no part in salvanic transformation, no will, no choice...they're simply winners in the divine roulette game. Or, maybe better yet, they see it as God's cosmic pick the petals off the daisy game, "I love them, I love them not".

Is it a relationship when only one side commits?
YES! I have ZERO tolerance for that heresy. I don't engage either. I have considered carrying a statement of faith to give to any new "Christian" that wants to befriend me so I can instantly weed them out.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
This thread might be helpful, Matthew 6:33 was mentioning a list from a woman who had many points of refutation, I believe it may be in this thread:

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/calvinism.123765/page-2#post-843086201


Something to keep in mind is that while we are fortunate to be alert to this, to be careful to be Christlike in our responses when interacting with others. Presenting the Word in gentleness, kindness and love is important for that's where hearts may soften and ears may listen a bit more carefully.

While we may actually be dealing with other believers in Christ (and those who are not), who are still maturing and growing in Christ (in some cases) it's good to keep this posture in mind:

A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

2 Timothy 2:24-26




So, the things we are learning about Calvinism are helpful but I've found that gentle (and prayerfully) sharing the truth of God's Word helps keep defenses down and hearts open. I say this because I was a true believer but almost went down the Calvinism path. It was the gentle presentation of God's Word, persistently explained that kept me safe, praise God.

Of course, as parents we do need to protect our kiddos from teaching that impair their understanding of God's wonderful grace but don't let exasperation keep you from that Christlike gentleness needed in interacting with others (and I'm talking to myself here as well). :)
That convicted me because I have so much disdain for this teaching that I just want to scream at every person that starts spouting it to me. This definitely convicted me to be gentle and patient with the person. I seriously have less of that these days.

I feel exasperated by all the false teachings I'm constantly hearing from my clients, online, in church. I just want to run for the hills and scream is anyone sane! Does anybody study their Bibles?!?!
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
I feel exasperated by all the false teachings I'm constantly hearing from my clients, online, in church. I just want to run for the hills and scream is anyone sane! Does anybody study their Bibles?!?!

I know what you're saying, I've had those moments myself. I have to remember that perhaps my job is to simply present the truth, trying not to be overwhelmed with the system of error, but how God may want me to reach or interact with just the person in front of me scripturally.

There are those who I can only pray for, depending on what my own energy levels are (and as God provides it), remembering that God is still working where I may not be able to or that He's got other people He'll plug into their lives.

There's been many a time where I've been wonderfully surprised at God's work in someone's life just in answer to prayer. :)
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
I know what you're saying, I've had those moments myself. I have to remember that perhaps my job is to simply present the truth, trying not to be overwhelmed with the system of error, but how God may want me to reach or interact with just the person in front of me scripturally.

There are those who I can only pray for, depending on what my own energy levels are (and as God provides it), remembering that God is still working where I may not be able to or that He's got other people He'll plug into their lives.

There's been many a time where I've been wonderfully surprised at God's work in someone's life just in answer to prayer. :)
Thank you so much the needed rebuke. I was letting my frustration lead me sin. I'll be praying for those people rather than insulting them.
 

Bethlehem57

Well-Known Member
Concur with your thoughts. Calvinism is a cancer that is inflicting sickness upon the church.
Yes! And along with Calvinism comes Amillenialism that absolutely makes my soul ache! I was listening to Olive Tree Views the other week, and there was a guest on (of course I can’t remember his name) who was talking about Amillenialists and I think he hit the nail on the head when he said that those who believe we are now living in the Millenial Kingdom, point to all unfulfilled prophecy has already having been fulfilled. For them, all prophecy has been fulfilled and no matter what OT or NT verse you throw at them, they are well versed into turning this into allegory or it simply being symbolic of history at that time. And here is where this speaker’s ideas hit home with me. I know some of you have heard me say that my DD’s husband is a full blown Calvinist/Amillenialist with a PHD in Theology, and he is an ordained minister. His beliefs fall right into what I believe robs believers of their “blessed hope” should they fall into thinking that these ideas are true.

The guest speaker of that episode basically said that all those Calvinist’/Amillenialists who are so adept at dodging what Scripture tells us, along with counting all prophecy and especially the Book of Revelation as allegoric/it as allegory or symbolic, has created his own theology, whereby he has made himself a god unto that way of thinking. And that is why they equip themselves to be able to back up their beliefs with allegory or already being fulfilled in view of all prophecy. Calvinists/Amillenialists, like my son-in-law, are immovable in their way of thinking, no matter how many times you can show them examples of how it’s IMPOSSIBLE that we are in the Millenial Kingdom now, for example, where have you seen a lion laying down with a lamb? or where can a child put his hand into a viper‘s nest and not be harmed?” ..there are many, many examples of how we cannot possibly be at this point in God’s plan!

In addition to being in the Millenial Kingdom now, and thinking that we have been since the Church was founded, Amillenialsts believe that Christ can’t return again until the Church has paved the way for His return. They actually think that mankind can do anything at all to make ready for Christ to return! In my SIL’s thinking, the Church will complete the spread of the Gospel, converting every last one on earth and only then can Christ return. Oy…… Since when has Holy God EVER been able to let man do anything for Him? In each and every covenant that God made with man, He makes sacrifice for man to be able to uphold his part of every covenant He ever made with man, up to and including the final New Covenant with Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross! Most who believe these lies also fall in with those who think that Israel has been replaced by the Church!

I’m praying for my SIL’s heart to turn back to flesh from stone. There are many like him who need our prayers as well. This has become a very popular false teaching in Churches today. Only God can make them see the truth!
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
Yes! And along with Calvinism comes Amillenialism that absolutely makes my soul ache! I was listening to Olive Tree Views the other week, and there was a guest on (of course I can’t remember his name) who was talking about Amillenialists and I think he hit the nail on the head when he said that those who believe we are now living in the Millenial Kingdom, point to all unfulfilled prophecy has already having been fulfilled. For them, all prophecy has been fulfilled and no matter what OT or NT verse you throw at them, they are well versed into turning this into allegory or it simply being symbolic of history at that time. And here is where this speaker’s ideas hit home with me. I know some of you have heard me say that my DD’s husband is a full blown Calvinist/Amillenialist with a PHD in Theology, and he is an ordained minister. His beliefs fall right into what I believe robs believers of their “blessed hope” should they fall into thinking that these ideas are true.

The guest speaker of that episode basically said that all those Calvinist’/Amillenialists who are so adept at dodging what Scripture tells us, along with counting all prophecy and especially the Book of Revelation as allegoric/it as allegory or symbolic, has created his own theology, whereby he has made himself a god unto that way of thinking. And that is why they equip themselves to be able to back up their beliefs with allegory or already being fulfilled in view of all prophecy. Calvinists/Amillenialists, like my son-in-law, are immovable in their way of thinking, no matter how many times you can show them examples of how it’s IMPOSSIBLE that we are in the Millenial Kingdom now, for example, where have you seen a lion laying down with a lamb? or where can a child put his hand into a viper‘s nest and not be harmed?” ..there are many, many examples of how we cannot possibly be at this point in God’s plan!

In addition to being in the Millenial Kingdom now, and thinking that we have been since the Church was founded, Amillenialsts believe that Christ can’t return again until the Church has paved the way for His return. They actually think that mankind can do anything at all to make ready for Christ to return! In my SIL’s thinking, the Church will complete the spread of the Gospel, converting every last one on earth and only then can Christ return. Oy…… Since when has Holy God EVER been able to let man do anything for Him? In each and every covenant that God made with man, He makes sacrifice for man to be able to uphold his part of every covenant He ever made with man, up to and including the final New Covenant with Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross! Most who believe these lies also fall in with those who think that Israel has been replaced by the Church!

I’m praying for my SIL’s heart to turn back to flesh from stone. There are many like him who need our prayers as well. This has become a very popular false teaching in Churches today. Only God can make them see the truth!
Yeah it's crazy how someone can become this self-deceived that even countless scripture can't help them. That's scary!

I have only met two Calvinists so far and our debate didn't last long. As soon as I started quoting scripture they wanted to just agree to disagree. Oh well.
 

Belle of Grace

Longing for Home
What's worse is that the believers of this doctrine rarely state it upfront. You end up wasting time purchasing a book or watching a video, only to notice a red flag. It seems no amount of scripture will work for these people.
You're so right, Cheeky! When we first moved to our present location many years ago, we had thought we'd attend the local Baptist church in the small community only 2 miles from our home. With high hopes, we began visiting there soon after moving in. It was nice to meet some of the local people who lived in our new community, and I especially enjoyed the fact that we would no longer have to commute to church as we had been doing in the past. High hopes!!
When the young pastor (seminary student) came calling, my dh specifically asked him if he was a Calvinist. The young pastor stated that he was still not sure about it and was thinking things through. Quite by accident, I later discovered an online forum where this young man was a moderator, and the forum was dedicated Calvinist! He discovered who I was when I registered for the forum, and he quickly resigned his position as moderator. One Sunday, during the Bible class hour, he was teaching a lot of Scripture as allegory, particularly Revelation. When my dh dared to challenge him in this small class of four, the young pastor became belligerent toward my dh. The worship service met in the sanctuary 'after' this unsettling class, and during his sermon, the pastor was clearly angry with my dh. His face was red, and he kept looking straight at dh and speaking negatively about people in general, but we knew he meant the remarks for us. Needless to say, we weren't going to go back there again. No more five min drive to church.
We found another church to attend that was 20 min away. In the Bible class, we began to hear about Augustine, Luther, etc. When the pastor of that church learned through the grapevine that we were pre-trib dispensational Christians, he, too, got very heated in the pulpit and made fun of pre-trib dispensation believers. Decided we weren't going to attend there anymore. A few years later, we found a grace-oriented church and we have to commute almost an hour each way.
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
You're so right, Cheeky! When we first moved to our present location many years ago, we had thought we'd attend the local Baptist church in the small community only 2 miles from our home. With high hopes, we began visiting there soon after moving in. It was nice to meet some of the local people who lived in our new community, and I especially enjoyed the fact that we would no longer have to commute to church as we had been doing in the past. High hopes!!
When the young pastor (seminary student) came calling, my dh specifically asked him if he was a Calvinist. The young pastor stated that he was still not sure about it and was thinking things through. Quite by accident, I later discovered an online forum where this young man was a moderator, and the forum was dedicated Calvinist! He discovered who I was when I registered for the forum, and he quickly resigned his position as moderator. One Sunday, during the Bible class hour, he was teaching a lot of Scripture as allegory, particularly Revelation. When my dh dared to challenge him in this small class of four, the young pastor became belligerent toward my dh. The worship service met in the sanctuary 'after' this unsettling class, and during his sermon, the pastor was clearly angry with my dh. His face was red, and he kept looking straight at dh and speaking negatively about people in general, but we knew he meant the remarks for us. Needless to say, we weren't going to go back there again. No more five min drive to church.
We found another church to attend that was 20 min away. In the Bible class, we began to hear about Augustine, Luther, etc. When the pastor of that church learned through the grapevine that we were pre-trib dispensational Christians, he, too, got very heated in the pulpit and made fun of pre-trib dispensation believers. Decided we weren't going to attend there anymore. A few years later, we found a grace-oriented church and we have to commute almost an hour each way.
It makes me wonder what is spiritually going on that they tend to be so sneaky in these beliefs. It's like they're purposely trying to infiltrate Christian circles in a subterfuge kind of way. Secretly start introducing false doctrine without openly stating, hey I'm Reformed/Calvinist.

It's terrible. I don't care anymore and plan on flat out asking about the rapture, dispensationalism, and so many viewpoints that need to be taught or it's not even a consideration. If we move to WV I'm calling the Pastors before I even visit. I'm not wasting my time. I will be interviewing them and their personal beliefs.

I want to play stupid and pretend I don't agree with my beliefs or doubt them to see what they say. Especially when the majority of Pastors don't even believe in a literal 6 day young Earth creation beginning. That's a deal breaker for me.
 

Belle of Grace

Longing for Home
I want to play stupid and pretend I don't agree with my beliefs or doubt them to see what they say.
Cheeky, I'm not thinking that's a good idea. Being deceptive is not how to approach a possible new pastor. You could do what my dh did when we first interviewed our current pastor several years ago. He told him that we'd had some issues with Calvinist pastors and their teachings, so we wanted to settle the issue up front. "Pastor, are you a Calvinist?" He stated flatly that he was not. We checked his educational background, and he attended a free grace Christian university, instead of a Calvinist seminary. To this day, he does not preach from a Calvinist perspective. However, he does occasionally quote well known theologians, etc., who are Calvinists.
Not sure why.
Getting back to the educational background, you can inquire about where the prospective pastor attended seminary. That's a reasonable question. You also might ask what commentaries he uses, and does he enjoy Andy Woods?
Calvinist seminaries will often be obvious. If you actually land in WV, you're likely to find a lot of very conservative Bible believing churches. If they say they attended seminary Louisville, it's Calvinist led, to my understanding. Young families need to locate their church before buying their home, especially if they have small children to transport back & forth to Awanas, etc. It's always best to live near your church, not commute, especially with little ones.
 
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