Reasons Ezek 38-39 comes before Tribulation

[RandallB]

How do you all feel about these reasons and do you have any others???

Ezek 38 must be Pre-Trib (and by at least 3.5 years)

1) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God – Ezek 39:28
At the end of the Ezek 38/39 war the Lord pours out His Spirit. Israel will finally KNOW their God (but not their Messiah – yet). Only then will they require a Temple to be in a covenant relationship. So Ezek 38 therefore is Pre-Temple & Pre-Trib.

2) 7 month burying of bodies & 7 year burning of weapons – Ezek 39:9
This requires that Ezek 38/39 happen Pre-Trib since the Trib is 7 years long. Nobody believes that Israel will still be burning Gog’s weapons to stay warm into the MK especially in the Lord’s capital city. Most state that this seven year burning period would need to end sometime before Mid-Trib since Israel will be busy fleeing to Petra/Bozrah at the AoD – Mid-Trib. This would put the Ezek 38 war at least 3.5 years before the Trib.

3) If Ezek 38 battle is during Trib then those nations would have to violate the ac enforcement of Treaty
The ac (anti-christ) will be assuming total control of commerce, governments, and the world. It takes a bunch more faith than I have to believe that the ac would allow an attack on Israel just after he has enforced a treaty with them that apparently allows them to rebuild their Temple so that he can proclaim himself to be god (ac’s #1 main objective). He just would not allow this.

4) allah must be totally discounted before Temple could be built - Therefore Ezek 38 is Pre-Temple & Pre-Trib.
The rest of the Muslim world must be in total disarray having seen their god totally defeated by the God of Israel. It would also take more faith than I have to believe Israel would be allowed that to rebuild their temple with any of the people groups mentioned in Ps 83/ Ezek 38 still in existence. There would be more bombings than we can imagine. Nope... All of those groups must be gone before the Temple could be rebuilt. Ps 83 & Ezek 38 therefore must be Pre-Trib.

Dr. Thomas Ice is quoted as saying: "If one were to compile a survey about 25 years ago of the timing views of futurists concerning Ezekiel 38 and 39 the leading view would have clearly been the one that this event will take place around the middle of the tribulation. Leading prophecy teachers at that time clearly held this view such as Hal Lindsey, John Walvoord, J. Dwight Pentecost, and Charles Ryrie. However, I would say that today the most widely held view among prophecy teachers today would be the pretribulational view of Gog and Magog. Some who hold this view include Chuck Smith, Chuck Missler, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Randall Price, Tim LaHaye, and Joel Rosenberg ( & Dr Ice)."

(Sorry if this has been handled in another thread... If so plz point me....)

 

[usoutpost31]

The only time frame Ezekiel 38 or 39 gives us, "in the latter days". That Israel appears to be living at peace and with their guard down indicates it might be after their covenant with the AC. Gog/Magog could be before the Tribulation, but it doesn't have to be.

1) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God – Ezek 39:28
At the end of the Ezek 38/39 war the Lord pours out His Spirit. Israel will finally KNOW their God (but not their Messiah – yet).

I don't know how they make the covenant with the Antichrist right after that then. He fools those who are blinded by the god of this world. That would include Israel before Gog/Magog. If they know their God, they should be able to see the Antichrist for who he is.

2) 7 month burying of bodies & 7 year burning of weapons – Ezek 39:9
This requires that Ezek 38/39 happen Pre-Trib since the Trib is 7 years long. Nobody believes that Israel will still be burning Gog’s weapons to stay warm into the MK especially in the Lord’s capital city. Most state that this seven year burning period would need to end sometime before Mid-Trib since Israel will be busy fleeing to Petra/Bozrah at the AoD – Mid-Trib.

There are millennial passages that suggest the weapons of war are being converted into other uses even after the Tribulation ends (Isaiah 2:4). Some Jews flee to Petra, but Jerusalem is populated all the way to the end of the Tribulation (Zechariah 14:3).

If Ezek 38 battle is during Trib then those nations would have to violate the ac enforcement of Treaty

There is good reason to think that covenant isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Despite claims of peace and safety, the Tribulation is anything but that, and the AC joins in fighting wars himself (Daniel 11:40-44).

Consider the following scenario. This isn't doctrine, it won't necessarily happen this way, just a possibility.

It could well be, that the AC's failure to defend Israel, and God revealing his sovereignty to His people. Almost a latter days showdown like between Elijah and the prophets of Baal.

1 Kings 18:24 And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

The Jews call upon the AC to save them from Gog, but he doesn't respond. But God answers their cry, in a mighty display. And...

1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.”

It is at this point that they begin turning against the AC. And he moves himself into the temple to reestablish authority over them.

allah must be totally discounted before Temple could be built - Therefore Ezek 38 is Pre-Temple & Pre-Trib.

Who is the covenant "with many" made with if all of Israel's enemies are gone?

 

[Tall Timbers]

@RandallB, I lean towards it being pre-trib, the main reason being your point number 2.

 

[RandallB]

The only time frame Ezekiel 38 or 39 gives us, "in the latter days". That Israel appears to be living at peace and with their guard down indicates it might be after their covenant with the AC. Gog/Magog could be before the Tribulation, but it doesn't have to be.



I don't know how they make the covenant with the Antichrist right after that then. He fools those who are blinded by the god of this world. That would include Israel before Gog/Magog. If they know their God, they should be able to see the Antichrist for who he is.



There are millennial passages that suggest the weapons of war are being converted into other uses even after the Tribulation ends (Isaiah 2:4). Some Jews flee to Petra, but Jerusalem is populated all the way to the end of the Tribulation (Zechariah 14:3).



There is good reason to think that covenant isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Despite claims of peace and safety, the Tribulation is anything but that, and the AC joins in fighting wars himself (Daniel 11:40-44).

Consider the following scenario. This isn't doctrine, it won't necessarily happen this way, just a possibility.

It could well be, that the AC's failure to defend Israel, and God revealing his sovereignty to His people. Almost a latter days showdown like between Elijah and the prophets of Baal.

1 Kings 18:24 And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

The Jews call upon the AC to save them from Gog, but he doesn't respond. But God answers their cry, in a mighty display. And...

1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.”

It is at this point that they begin turning against the AC. And he moves himself into the temple to reestablish authority over them.



Who is the covenant "with many" made with if all of Israel's enemies are gone?

"

That Israel appears to be living at peace and with their guard down indicates it might be after their covenant with the AC."

Actually the term used is "securely" or "betach" Strong's Hebrew #983. And letting Scripture interpret Scripture --- Just a few verses earlier the same author in Ezek 28 tells that Israel will live in ‘Betach’ after the Lord Himself judges those surrounding nations that hate Israel (the Ps 83 nations). Therefore Ps 83 is Pre-Ezek 38. AND the ac would never let those surrounding nations attack Israel while he was Enforcing the 7 year covenant and they are building their Temple which he has big plans for. Nope... Ezek 38 is Pre-Trib.

I will deal with the other issues in later posts...

 

[RandallB]

1) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God – Ezek 39:28
At the end of the Ezek 38/39 war the Lord pours out His Spirit. Israel will finally KNOW their God (but not their Messiah – yet).

I don't know how they make the covenant with the Antichrist right after that then. He fools those who are blinded by the god of this world. That would include Israel before Gog/Magog. If they know their God, they should be able to see the Antichrist for who he is.

Many have said that Israel will have such a Burning in their Bosom to build their Temple after they realize the LORD their God is involved -- that they will gladly accept the terms of peace as long as they are promised the ability to build their temple. And after seeing what happened to the nations that went against Israel in Ezek 38, the world will be glad to make that treaty also.. The guy Enforcing the Treaty will turn out later to be THE bad guy - absolutely ... but in the beginning will look very attractive to everyone.

Sorry but the rest of your comments seem to be mostly conjecture.

We know that the AC will Enforce the 7-Year Treaty per scripture, Israel will be able to build their Temple and begin to worship in it.. until the Mid Trib when he will proclaim himself to be god in the working Jewish Temple. And then all Double Toothpicks breaks loose.

Dr Fruchtenbaum, who really understands OT scripture (& NT), states regarding Dan 9:27:

"The prince that shall come, or the Antichrist, will make a firm covenant. He will make it firm; he will make it strong."
"The Hebrew text uses a definite article meaning “the many.” This is the "leadership of Israel" who will be empowered to sign covenants of this nature."

http://www.messianicassociation.org...th_Seven,_The_Great_Tribulation_-_Daniel_9:27

 

[daygo]

Ezekiel war has to be pre trib, Muslims will be completely destroyed by then so Israel will feel they're at peace to build the temple.

 

[Andy C]

Many have said that Israel will have such a Burning in their Bosom to build their Temple after they realize the LORD their God is involved -- that they will gladly accept the terms of peace as long as they are promised the ability to build their temple.

This will be “The art of The Deal”, the treaty allowing the Jews to finally build their temple IMO will be the dominant factor in signing the treaty.

 

[nevermind]

I've thought this for a long time. The 7yr burning of weapons is the biggest clue. Pre or Post Rapture is my most contemplated issue re: Gog war. Nothing says it has to be one or the other. Matthew 24 says "wars and rumors of wars". I hope is it pre-Rapture as it will awaken many folks to what's happening. I tend to lean towards post-Rapture though as it would be more likely to happen if the West was in complete disarray.

 

[usoutpost31]

Many have said that Israel will have such a Burning in their Bosom to build their Temple after they realize the LORD their God is involved -- that they will gladly accept the terms of peace as long as they are promised the ability to build their temple. And after seeing what happened to the nations that went against Israel in Ezek 38, the world will be glad to make that treaty also.. The guy Enforcing the Treaty will turn out later to be THE bad guy - absolutely ... but in the beginning will look very attractive to everyone.

Sorry but the rest of your comments seem to be mostly conjecture.

We know that the AC will Enforce the 7-Year Treaty per scripture, Israel will be able to build their Temple and begin to worship in it.. until the Mid Trib when he will proclaim himself to be god in the working Jewish Temple. And then all Double Toothpicks breaks loose.

Dr Fruchtenbaum, who really understands OT scripture (& NT), states regarding Dan 9:27:

"The prince that shall come, or the Antichrist, will make a firm covenant. He will make it firm; he will make it strong."
"The Hebrew text uses a definite article meaning “the many.” This is the "leadership of Israel" who will be empowered to sign covenants of this nature."

http://www.messianicassociation.org...th_Seven,_The_Great_Tribulation_-_Daniel_9:27

My question remains. If all of Israel's enemies have been dispatched.....and there's nothing standing in their way.

Then why do they need the Antichrist and his covenant at all.

 

[daygo]

My question remains. If all of Israel's enemies have been dispatched.....and there's nothing standing in their way.

Then why do they need the Antichrist and his covenant at all.

To pave the way for him to commit the abomination of desolation.

 

[mphsmom]

I still think the Ezekiel war (gog/magog) happens pre-tribulation.

 

[athenasius]

How do you all feel about these reasons and do you have any others???

Ezek 38 must be Pre-Trib (and by at least 3.5 years)

1) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God – Ezek 39:28
At the end of the Ezek 38/39 war the Lord pours out His Spirit. Israel will finally KNOW their God (but not their Messiah – yet). Only then will they require a Temple to be in a covenant relationship. So Ezek 38 therefore is Pre-Temple & Pre-Trib.

2) 7 month burying of bodies & 7 year burning of weapons – Ezek 39:9
This requires that Ezek 38/39 happen Pre-Trib since the Trib is 7 years long. Nobody believes that Israel will still be burning Gog’s weapons to stay warm into the MK especially in the Lord’s capital city. Most state that this seven year burning period would need to end sometime before Mid-Trib since Israel will be busy fleeing to Petra/Bozrah at the AoD – Mid-Trib. This would put the Ezek 38 war at least 3.5 years before the Trib.

3) If Ezek 38 battle is during Trib then those nations would have to violate the ac enforcement of Treaty
The ac (anti-christ) will be assuming total control of commerce, governments, and the world. It takes a bunch more faith than I have to believe that the ac would allow an attack on Israel just after he has enforced a treaty with them that apparently allows them to rebuild their Temple so that he can proclaim himself to be god (ac’s #1 main objective). He just would not allow this.

4) allah must be totally discounted before Temple could be built - Therefore Ezek 38 is Pre-Temple & Pre-Trib.
The rest of the Muslim world must be in total disarray having seen their god totally defeated by the God of Israel. It would also take more faith than I have to believe Israel would be allowed that to rebuild their temple with any of the people groups mentioned in Ps 83/ Ezek 38 still in existence. There would be more bombings than we can imagine. Nope... All of those groups must be gone before the Temple could be rebuilt. Ps 83 & Ezek 38 therefore must be Pre-Trib.

Dr. Thomas Ice is quoted as saying: "If one were to compile a survey about 25 years ago of the timing views of futurists concerning Ezekiel 38 and 39 the leading view would have clearly been the one that this event will take place around the middle of the tribulation. Leading prophecy teachers at that time clearly held this view such as Hal Lindsey, John Walvoord, J. Dwight Pentecost, and Charles Ryrie. However, I would say that today the most widely held view among prophecy teachers today would be the pretribulational view of Gog and Magog. Some who hold this view include Chuck Smith, Chuck Missler, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Randall Price, Tim LaHaye, and Joel Rosenberg ( & Dr Ice)."

(Sorry if this has been handled in another thread... If so plz point me....)

LOVE THIS THREAD

Ok to answer short form first then in depth!

I think it has to be POST RAPTURE because of the implications of that very first verse you quote Ezek 39:28. I also think it's PRE TRIB

Point 1 Because of Ezek 39:28 God is expressing HIS purpose towards the Jews, but in Chapter 38 in v 16 & 23 God also expresses His will in making Himself known among the nations (goy- or gentiles), so the Jews AND the Gentiles. That means a logical assumption that nobody is around who still DOES know God either Jew or Gentile, which suggests the church is out of the picture. How long out is anyone's guess. God says it over and over in both chapters. That repetition clearly shows this is a primary purpose of what God does to the invaders.

Point 2: Weapons burn for 7 years.
I think it's PRE TRIB because I think the burning of the weapons needs to be done before the midpoint of the Trib due to the Abomination of Desolation by the AC and the believing Jews fleeing for their lives as they follow Jesus's instructions to the letter.

While those who don't flee are left behind to face the AC's genocidal wrath might perhaps still tend the furnaces --they might also decide to use any weapons they can get their hands on.

What strikes me is that the stress put on the 7 years of burning the weapons. This is either a match with the 7 years of the Trib or it points to the possibility of a 3.5 year or longer gap between the Rapture and the kickoff, the starter pistol of the Tribulation which is that covenant that is signed/ratified/set in place between the AC and the many (which I think could mean the parliamentary system of govt in Israel-- the many).

Dr Andy Woods puts an interesting argument for weapons burning into the Millennium when he raises the point that Babylon burns the whole Millennium so there isn't any particular reason that the weapons shouldn't continue to be burnt but your point is good that there may not be any need for heat however if the Lord should allow seasons of the earth to continue and there are other verses that speak of that, the colder seasons may require heating fuel.

Point 3: This is another reason I think this battle occurs BEFORE the Trib and the treaty of the AC. I think that treaty will come up in the aftermath of Ezek 38-- to finally allow the Temple to be built and guarantee Israel's right to build it. The Euro side of the old Roman Empire will look like the last globalists standing once Russia, Turkey and Iran are removed from the picture as a threat to Israel.

Point 4: As with point 3-- the muslims around the world will have had a sharp decisive blow to their confidence in Allah, by the God of Israel. They along with their traditional partners Russia, Iran and Turkey (Shia Islam and Sunni Islam respectively) are out of the picture.

This allows the AC to come into the forefront of the world's attn with a treaty to end all aggression towards Israel, AND OR the right to build that Temple. That puts him in the hero spot for Israel, ready to sign with anyone who will just let them live and worship the way they want on the land God gave them. That kicks off the Trib.

Andy Woods objects to that argument and says that the fact they are at peace, not expecting attack, when they are attacked suggests the treaty is in place already, but I would counter by saying anything could cause Israel to be temporarily blind to their vulnerability and weak to the point of being unable to counter an attack.

I think that might include the after math of Isaiah 17 in which Damascus is destroyed, by the children of Israel. That one just by the terms used in Isaiah 17 suggests Israel takes quite a hit during that battle while Damascus is destroyed.

Or it could be a combination of circumstances like the current political climate of unrest with the judicial reforms and the riots which encouraged all the enemies of Israel to work together on the recent attacks. Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and the ever present Hamas and other Gaza and West Bank PLO types were working in synch, encouraged by the crazy leftists in Israel. Just amp that up after the Restrainer quits Restraining, and it could be quite the political mess.

finally I think that the point of Gog Magog, first is to make God known, but a secondary point may be to set up the old Roman Empire to come back into the first position in world power.

I have an idea of how China will implode during that time too, but that is another thread for another time. Suffice to say I think this Gog Magog attack sets up the power players for the Tribulation and they are Israel and the old Roman Empire revving back to life like some undead evil zombie thing. The war between Babylon in all it's forms and Jerusalem, the City of God.

 

[athenasius]

My question remains. If all of Israel's enemies have been dispatched.....and there's nothing standing in their way.

Then why do they need the Antichrist and his covenant at all.

Because of the common human tendency to immediately forget God and what He just did, what we just read in the Bible and turn to our own devices to make something work.

rabbit trail alert.
Like Saul before Samuel, explaining the sound of cattle in Samuel's enraged ears, Saul explains all the great reasons he disobeyed God's express command to kill off ALL the Amalekites especially the king Agag.

He had just been anointed king. He had one task to do. And he went with his own understanding rather than obeying God. He didn't complete the job either because he left some of the Amalekites, and even some of Agag's own descendants alive.

1 Samuel 15 has the story in full.

but even further in the story of Esther, we find that Saul's disobedience had consequences that went down the generations. Look at Esther 3:1 where Haman's genealogy is found. He is an AGAGITE-- a descendant of Agag. And Esther and Mordecai are from Saul's tribe. They rectify Saul's omission by their obedience.

but my main point besides that rabbit trail is that the normal human tendency is to get our sticky hands in there, and help God out -- getting into sin along the way.

 

[daygo]

Good one athanasius, has to be pre trib. Imo it could be the feast of Trumpets as prophecy and when the entire Muslim religion is completely destroyed, to me it just makes sense have explained elsewhere.

 

[JoyJoyJoy]

LOVE THIS THREAD

Me too!!
This is meaty.
I cant contribute but certainly can read and learn.

 

[Andy C]

Good one athanasius, has to be pre trib. Imo it could be the feast of Trumpets as prophecy and when the entire Muslim religion is completely destroyed, to me it just makes sense have explained elsewhere.

Where in the bible does it state all of the muslims will be destroyed?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Ezekiel war has to be pre trib, Muslims will be completely destroyed by then so Israel will feel they're at peace to build the temple.

I still think the Ezekiel war (gog/magog) happens pre-tribulation.

I agree.
After the Rapture ,and before the Tribulation.
Sandwiched in between.
Makes the most plausible sense .

 

[Andy C]

Good one athanasius, has to be pre trib. Imo it could be the feast of Trumpets as prophecy and when the entire Muslim religion is completely destroyed, to me it just makes sense have explained elsewhere.

After the rapture, Islam will be the worlds biggest “religion”. After Ezekiel 38-39, there will still be a huge population of Muslims in many countries.

 

[daygo]

After the rapture, Islam will be the worlds biggest “religion”. After Ezekiel 38-39, there will still be a huge population of Muslims in many countries.

Disagree completely, one, all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence, ezekiel 38 v 20, just my thinking there's a phenomenon called spontaneous combustion where people are killed by the setting of their bodies on fire, as per sending fire on the coastlands, admittedly I could be putting my own thinking here, so I'm either right or wrong.

 

[Andy C]

Disagree completely, one, all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence, ezekiel 38 v 20, just my thinking there's a phenomenon called spontaneous combustion where people are killed by the setting of their bodies on fire, as per sending fire on the coastlands, admittedly I could be putting my own thinking here, so I'm either right or wrong.

Are you being serious? Where in the Bible supports your view that all muslims will be killed? If all the unbelievers spontaneously combusted (not a real thing), than who would enter the tribulation.