Questions: The Holy Spirit during The Tribulation

BlessedAssurance

Well-Known Member
Hello, I've been reading through the recent topic that discusses the great delusion. @SkyRider had a question here that asks whether all will fall under this condition after the Rapture, or just those who flat out reject the gospel of Jesus Christ? This got me thinking on some questions I have always had a hard time understanding.

1. Does the Holy Spirit indwell those who are saved during the Tribulation, or just the 144,000 Jews who are sealed?

2. If the Holy Spirit does not indwell the Tribulation believers, are they then responsible to "keep" their Salvation on their own? I'm not sure if that is the correct wording, but I've read somewhere that Tribulation believers do not have the help of the Holy Spirit, thus they are not sealed in the same way that the Church believers were.

I am not sure what to think of that if it is true, although it makes sense that people will easily fall for the great delusion if the Holy Spirit is not in them to guide them. If any of you have knowledge on this, would you please help clear up my questions? Thank you
 
This is a great question, and one I have thought about before. I have always been taught that it is possible to be saved during the tribulation, but it is very difficult due to the great delusion. Also, anyone saved during the tribulation would in all likeliness be killed for not accepting the mark. The 7 year tribulation is a time for the Jews. It is when God goes back to dealing with them, showing once and for all that He is the true Messiah. I will search scripture on this to validate (or invalidate) what I have always understood.
 

BlessedAssurance

Well-Known Member
This is a great question, and one I have thought about before. I have always been taught that it is possible to be saved during the tribulation, but it is very difficult due to the great delusion. Also, anyone saved during the tribulation would in all likeliness be killed for not accepting the mark. The 7 year tribulation is a time for the Jews. It is when God goes back to dealing with them, showing once and for all that He is the true Messiah. I will search scripture on this to validate (or invalidate) what I have always understood.
Thank you for taking the time to search. I appreciate it!
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit didn't indwell people like the Church today. The Holy Spirit in us is the reason our bodies are called temples

19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. (1 Corinthians 6)

During the old testament, the Holy Spirit was described as coming upon people in crucial moments, normally to give them some sort of guidance or supernatural ability. The only person I can think of the had the Holy Spirit come upon them in a way that is similar to the Church is king David

So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah. (1 Samuel 16:13)

Even then, when I hear "come upon" it makes me think of external compared indwell which makes me think internal.

There is also the issue of permanence. We are told in Ephesians 1 that the Holy Spirit is sealed in us as a deposit to guarantee our inheritance

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory

This will last until death or the rapture, either way, we have a guarantee from God that we will be saved after the moment we first believe. Isn't God amazing?

But the Holy Spirit coming upon people in the Old Testament was temporary. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having her husband murdered, he prayed

Psalm 51 11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

And we can look at someone like Samson to see that the Holy Spirit coming upon someone was temporary in nature

19 After putting him to sleep on her lap, she called for someone to shave off the seven braids of his hair, and so began to subdue him.[c] And his strength left him. 20 Then she called, “Samson, the Philistines are upon you!” He awoke from his sleep and thought, “I’ll go out as before and shake myself free.” But he did not know that the Lord had left him. (Judges 16)

The Holy Spirit also does the job now of restraining evil, which is something He will suspend for a time during the tribulation to let God's wrath build up on those He is casting judgment on. And people will still be saved during the tribulation, so we know He will still be softening hearts and bringing people to a knowledge of God. As the Bible says, "a great multitude that no one can count" will be saved.

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7)

Hopefully someone else who knows more about the Holy Spirit's workings than me can chime in. This is something of a lofty subject that I hope I've portrayed correctly.

Now that I read the passage in Rev 7. Again about the witnesses being sealed, I'm also not sure that it's the Holy Spirit they are sealed with. He isn't directly mentioned in the sealing passage.
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
My understanding has been that those saved during Tribulation are not OSAS and must finish the race so to speak, nor are they indwelt by the Holy Spirit, though I believe they'll receive help from the heavenly host. The 144,000 are in a class of their own and dare sealed and protected.

I think this is where these verses come in, which some use to argue for Lordship Salvation, but I think, correct me if wrong, these are not talking about the Church:
Matthew 24:13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
Luke 21:19 — By your patient endurance you will gain your souls.
Matthew 10:22 — You will be hated by everyone because of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
The church (us) is unique in human history in that only the church is given the indwelling of the HS as a guarantee of our salvation. No one else has that guarantee, not OT saints, not Tribulation saints, no one, none, zero,...only, only, only the church. The proof text for that is not a verse, per se, but is found in Matthew 25 where Jesus says that those who fed those in need, visited in prison, etc. did those things to Him and those who did not do those things likewise did not do those things to Jesus. The point is that in the tribulation salvation will be faith in the Messiah (Jesus) and that is the same for everyone always. However, and this is the distinction, in the tribulation, the proof or evidence of a person's salvation will be shown in their actions, and indicated in Matt. 25. So, in the Tribulation, people can claim to be a Christian but how do you know? By their actions, specifically their actions toward the Jews. Those who help the Jews in some manner, will likely pay with their lives. Actions, and their deadly consequences, will be the proof of who is a Christian and who is a pretender. But keep in mind that true salvation is always, always, always faith in Jesus. It is the proof or evidence that is the difference here. As for the Holy Spirit, He will be active in the Tribulation certainly, convicting, leading, protecting all the things that He does now except that the 'guarantee' role will not be there. That benefit is for the church only. The proof text that shows that is John 20:29 where Jesus is speaking to Thomas (doubting)
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they
that have not seen
, and yet have believed.
Those who have not seen? That's us, the church. We have not seen Jesus and yet we believe. Because of our faith in believing while not seeing, we are given the HS as that salvation guarantee. That's the short version. For more explanation, try the looking on the RF main site. :)
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
Hello, I've been reading through the recent topic that discusses the great delusion. @SkyRider had a question here that asks whether all will fall under this condition after the Rapture, or just those who flat out reject the gospel of Jesus Christ? This got me thinking on some questions I have always had a hard time understanding.

1. Does the Holy Spirit indwell those who are saved during the Tribulation, or just the 144,000 Jews who are sealed?

2. If the Holy Spirit does not indwell the Tribulation believers, are they then responsible to "keep" their Salvation on their own? I'm not sure if that is the correct wording, but I've read somewhere that Tribulation believers do not have the help of the Holy Spirit, thus they are not sealed in the same way that the Church believers were.

I am not sure what to think of that if it is true, although it makes sense that people will easily fall for the great delusion if the Holy Spirit is not in them to guide them. If any of you have knowledge on this, would you please help clear up my questions? Thank you
Simply 1 No. 2 yes.
 

BlessedAssurance

Well-Known Member
Thank you all! There are some excellent responses here.

I had completely forgotten about how the Old Testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit. It makes sense that when the church is gone, the Tribulation saints will not have Him either.

In the OT, there were sacrifices and laws that the Jews followed to show they believed in God. During the Tribulation, it appears a person's actions will also be evidence as to their belief. Do they help the Jews? Do they lead others to Christ? Do they refuse the MOB even unto death? It all makes better sense now.

The more I learn, the more I am glad to be a part of the Church. That doesn't mean it's always easy or there isn't persecution to go through, but it still sounds better than any alternative option. Plus the Church (and only the Church) has the special assurance of the Rapture, which in and of itself is a glorious gift of hope! :smile
 

RobinB

Well-Known Member
3 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory

This will last until death or the rapture, either way, we have a guarantee from God that we will be saved after the moment we first believe. Isn't God amazing?

Yes He is!! :cheer :cheer
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
Hello, I've been reading through the recent topic that discusses the great delusion. @SkyRider had a question here that asks whether all will fall under this condition after the Rapture, or just those who flat out reject the gospel of Jesus Christ? This got me thinking on some questions I have always had a hard time understanding.

1. Does the Holy Spirit indwell those who are saved during the Tribulation, or just the 144,000 Jews who are sealed?

2. If the Holy Spirit does not indwell the Tribulation believers, are they then responsible to "keep" their Salvation on their own? I'm not sure if that is the correct wording, but I've read somewhere that Tribulation believers do not have the help of the Holy Spirit, thus they are not sealed in the same way that the Church believers were.

I am not sure what to think of that if it is true, although it makes sense that people will easily fall for the great delusion if the Holy Spirit is not in them to guide them. If any of you have knowledge on this, would you please help clear up my questions? Thank you
The Church Age began at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit "settled" on those assembled (Acts 2:3) and blessed them with His seven-fold nature (see Isaiah 11:2 for the seven-fold nature as well as Revelation 1:4 among other passages). One of those aspects is the "fear of the Lord" which the Old Testament saints extolled (see Proverbs 14 and 19 as examples among many). It was a measure of respect and awe for His majesty--not actual fear (unless His wrath was incurred)--and it inevitably leads to worship. Even in Jesus' day, believing Gentiles were known as "God-fearers," distinguishing them from ordinary Gentile "dogs" (yes, that is how the Jews commonly referred to pagan Gentiles in that day--see Jesus' conversation with the Gentile woman from Tyre and Sidon in Matthew 15. Pagans were seen that way because of their shameful habits. (The Gentile woman's daughter was tormented by demons and it is doubtful that she got them from leading what was known by Jews as leading a "blameless" life).

The New Testament contains examples of how the "fear of the Lord" is instrumental in salvation, because He goes before the witness of the Church. Interestingly, Acts 5:11 tells us that "...great fear gripped the entire Church and everyone else who heard what had happened..." and right after that, the Jerusalem church experienced explosive growth.

In more modern times, it was said that explosive growth followed Jonathan Edwards great sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". Previously, Edwards' church (as well as many other churches in New England) was less than "lukewarm"--and rather hypocritical in many ways. The adults were uncaring about the poor among the congregation and were obsessed with making money and acquiring land and possessions. The younger people were engaged in drunken debauchery. After Edwards' sermon, great fear gripped that church and people in the congregation--some were fainting and had the sensation that they were being dragged into hell. The period that followed was the great New England revival that saw at least one member of every household throughout the land becoming a fervent Christian and among other notable examples of the fear of God, were that the jails were, in many towns, empty of prisoners.

In Romans 3:18, the Apostle Paul quotes Psalm 36:1 and asserts that the reason for the absence of peace is the fact that there is "...no fear of God" in the land. In Luke 23:40, the thief on the cross who was to be with Jesus later in Paradise, chides the other prisoner who is taunting Jesus with, "Don't you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? " I believe that the Restrainer that will be "taken out of the way" is the fear of the Lord and His stepping out of the way opens the gate to Satan and his hordes. In fact, it may have already occurred. Maranatha!
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
I had completely forgotten about how the Old Testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit. It makes sense that when the church is gone, the Tribulation saints will not have Him either.
Yes. The Old Testament saints had the Holy Spirit (Hebrew: Ruach ha Kodesh) on them, surrounding them, going before them and speaking through them. But they did not have the permanent indwelling that those in the Church have--we are greatly blessed. Jesus said, to His disciples that they believed because they saw Him but, at the same time, He said, "Blessed are they who do not see and yet believe."(John 20:29). In John 14:15-21 He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be in them, which must have been astounding to His disciples. In His High Priestly prayer of John 17, He prayed for all those who would ever believe in Him through the witness of the Apostles. That's us!
 
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