Question on "Nitzeveh," mother of David, Jesse's wife

AMA.2.R

Well-Known Member
(Sorry. It's spelled Nitzevet. Or Nitzbet). Never heard of her? I hadn't either. But in studying the Psalms this morning, I ended up on a rabbit trail that led to the story of the YOUNG David as passed down in the Jewish Mishnah.

Now, please understand that I do realize the Mishnah is not the inspired Word of God. It is part of the Talmud, basically containing Jewish history, genealogies, and traditions passed down from generation to generation until officially recorded in, like, 200 A.D.? But where their personal genealogical histories were concerned, I guess the one area I'd be inclined to strongly trust would be that one.

Please be patient. I promise, I'm leading to a question.

So, studying David's psalms reminded me that I had always wondered about two peculiar things:
firstly, why--when the prophet Samuel had requested a meeting with Jesse and **all** of his sons--WHY was David left in the pastures with the sheep? Why did Samuel have to explicitly ask about whether there were any more sons at home? If the prophet had asked for them all, shouldn't they all have been brought? So strange! And secondly (maybe only us moms would think of this one, LOL) who was the mother who had laid the foundation for the amazing man David would become? How did she nurture this sensitive boy who would be "a man after God's own heart?" I mean, wouldn't we ALL want to be that kind of mom? Yet Scripture doesn't mention her overtly.

...which led me to this article, printed in a Jewish publication written by a Jewish woman based on Jewish history.

It absolutely blew my socks off. It seemed to explain soooo much about Psalm 69! It broke my heart in a whole new way for Jesse's grandmother, Ruth. It explained why David's brothers would have considered him as, not a brother, but a stranger, an alien (the root of which is actually "bastard")!

So finally, with all that explained, here's the link followed by my question:

http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/280331/jewish/Nitzevet-Mother-of-David.htm

Q: Is it possible, where the Talmud and Mishnah are concerned, that we as Christians have thrown the baby out with the bath water? Is it worthy of open study to the extent that, while not inerrant, it might nonetheless shed amazing light on inerrant Scripture, not to mention the historical and cultural context into which Jesus was born? Does anyone know how the Biblical scholars we discuss on RF view it?

I can only say that I'd never, ever heard of Nitzevet, or the information about the death of Boaz, or Ruth's continued sorrows, or David's even-greater parallels as a *type* of our Lord, etc., but this one little article seemed to add such nuances to the things I DID know and wonder about.

What think the rest of you? Do we miss opportunities, not acquainting ourselves with the Talmud (or Josephus, for that matter)? Is it wrong to consider at least Jewish genealogical histories with any weight?:)
 
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twerpv

Well-Known Member
Okay, so two things stick out to me:

1. How is it that there several incidents in the Bible where a man sleeps with a woman and he didn't know who she was?!?!! In this story, Jesse is supposed to sleep with the maidservant but Nitzevet switches places. Am I reading this wrong? Hadn't he already been with her on a number of occasions? And yet somehow doesn't know?

2. It is an interesting read, but when it got to the part where mom quotes Psalm 118:22 and attributes this to David, it bothered me. A lot. I am of the understanding that that Psalm is referring to Jesus and the Jews are the ones that rejected the capstone. Am I wrong here?
 

ShilohRose

Well-Known Member
Okay, so two things stick out to me:

1. How is it that there several incidents in the Bible where a man sleeps with a woman and he didn't know who she was?!?!! In this story, Jesse is supposed to sleep with the maidservant but Nitzevet switches places. Am I reading this wrong? Hadn't he already been with her on a number of occasions? And yet somehow doesn't know?

2. It is an interesting read, but when it got to the part where mom quotes Psalm 118:22 and attributes this to David, it bothered me. A lot. I am of the understanding that that Psalm is referring to Jesus and the Jews are the ones that rejected the capstone. Am I wrong here?
I didn't like Mom's interpretation of Psalm 118:22 either. Again, though, this is a non-Biblical source, and you have to look at it through that lens.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Okay, so two things stick out to me:

2. It is an interesting read, but when it got to the part where mom quotes Psalm 118:22 and attributes this to David, it bothered me. A lot. I am of the understanding that that Psalm is referring to Jesus and the Jews are the ones that rejected the capstone. Am I wrong here?
To answer the second question, no you are not wrong, but neither is the article. It's that dual reference thing. Isaiah clearly refers to a virgin birth which was completely fulfilled in Christ's birth, but at the time he wrote it, there was an early partial fulfillment with a young woman who was a virgin, who married and gave birth. It's also seen during various partial fulfillment of things like the antichrist where a partial fulfillment occurs earlier on in scripture with that Selucid king whathis name, (sorry, fatigue and brain fog) but the complete action will occur later during the actual antichrist.

I will try explaining more later in a few days, but I hope it helps a bit.

As for the first question, --Tamar, Leah, this isn't unknown. IMHO alcohol may be involved. But that may just be my cynical attitude being the daughter of an alcoholic and watching a few in the family on the non Christian side.:eek:

There is a reason these historical references like Josephus, Jasher and the Midrash are NOT considered canon. Like any historical document they will contain errors. Crosschecking against other documents of the period helps to establish where the truth might lie but it is always taken with a grain of salt.

Not so with scripture. While historical documents may shed light on a particular account and this may, they are not to be taken as the absolute truth.

I find no problem reading history and source documents like Josephus or reading science. I start with the Bible and end with the Bible. Should a document line up with the Bible, I read it with interest, much like I entertain a scientific theory that lines up with Scripture. It is of interest where it lines up with Scripture, not because Scripture needs any outer document to buttress the scriptural account, but simply as more evidence of the veracity of Scripture.

Edited to add, it was Antiochus Epiphanes I meant re the Seleucid king. I couldn't remember the name, and now I can't recall if I've spelt it correctly.
 
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AMA.2.R

Well-Known Member
Okay, so two things stick out to me:

1. How is it that there several incidents in the Bible where a man sleeps with a woman and he didn't know who she was?!?!! ...
In every case that comes to mind, I think it was a combination of factors. I do think drunkenness was one contributor; whether coincidentally, due to prior celebration (like a wedding), or purposefully, anticipating what they were about to do in light of the fact that they knew it was the wrong course of action. Beyond that, consider that these weren't couples sleeping together in private Manhattan condos with light switches, sunken sudsy bathtubs, and Red Door perfume on a long, relaxing weekend. Sooo... 1) It would have occurred under the darkness of night. 2) Perhaps in a private tent, but certainly amid countless nearby tents where other people were trying to sleep. 3) Water was scarce. Bathing as we know it didn't exist. Perfumes were rare, rare luxuries. As a result, one woman most likely smelled much the same as the next. 4) Being at night and under secretive circumstances and nearby others, you can imagine that what little "conversation" occurred would have been whispered. And 5) intercourse would likely have taken place quite quickly for several reasons, not the least of which, simple fatigue. There were no weekends. People worked hard. End-of-day brought exhaustion and the promise of an equally demanding day to follow. And lastly, I find people generally want to distance themselves from guilt as soon as possible. True for me, anyway!

Just my thoughts on your valid question.
2. It is an interesting read, but when it got to the part where mom quotes Psalm 118:22 and attributes this to David, it bothered me. A lot. I am of the understanding that that Psalm is referring to Jesus and the Jews are the ones that rejected the capstone. Am I wrong here?
I think Athenasius gave the best answer to this question. There are many, many examples of dual fulfillments. There are also many examples of what are known as types of Christ. Men whose lives contain specific elements that were meant to foreshadow the life of the Savior. Joseph was one of these **types** of Christ. David as well. And IF the Talmud happened to correctly preserve the general story of David's youth, and IF David, thinking back, did, indeed, use the words of his mother years later, in Psalm 118, in alluding to the Messiah as "the stone that was reviled by the builders" that has now become "the cornerstone," that doesn't change Scripture in any way. It would simply be one of countless other examples of Divine prophecy and Providence that Scripture didn't record.

I'm sure there's much of that!!! After all, as John tells us, "There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, I suppose the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." And that's just the actions and activities of Jesus Christ during His public ministry!

The Bible records only what God, in His infinite wisdom, has ordained that we absolutely needed to know in order to understand Who He is, who we are, what caused separation, Who brings reconciliation, what we need to do to obtain it, and where we're going. And even that much is sometimes more than we fully grasp.
 
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jonshaff

Fellow Servant
If I was going to use a verse or passage to correlate to the authors suggested truth, I would use this...

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Not 118 or 69
 

Victor Paul raj

New Member
Lot daughters used strong wine
Leah used mandrake
Judha enjoy with his friend definitely wine I think
So same way netzevet find
Jesse unknown that who her
This women's never condemned by men.
They're known his doing After only.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, on the theme of David was Nathan the prophet one of David's sons ?

Just a thought I had whilst starting to read the book of 2nd Samuel
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Nope, different Nathan. I've often wondered if David named his son called Nathan after Nathan the prophet though.

Got Questions here answers that (and they think so too)

https://www.gotquestions.org/Nathan-in-the-Bible.html

There is more interesting bits pieced together thru that union between David and Bathsheba.

I first heard of it thru Ken Johnson. Her grandfather was Ahitophel one of David's closest and most trusted advisors. here's where to look: A man named Ahitophel is mentioned in 2 Samuel 23:34 and he the father of Eliam. Since 2 Samuel 11:3 notes that Eliam is the father of Bathsheba, some scholars suggest that the Ahitophel of 2 Samuel 15 may in fact be Bathsheba's grandfather.

He was possibly ticked at how David got together with his grandaughter. Because look at 2 Samuel 15-17 or so to get the whole story of what Ahitophel does after the whole Bathsheba situation. He supports ABSOLOM's revolt and even encourages him to do this in chapter 16:


20 Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Give us your advice. What should we do?”

21 Ahithophel answered, “Sleep with your father’s concubines whom he left to take care of the palace. Then all Israel will hear that you have made yourself obnoxious to your father, and the hands of everyone with you will be more resolute.” 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.

23 Now in those days the advice Ahithophel gave was like that of one who inquires of God. That was how both David and Absalom regarded all of Ahithophel’s advice.

OK so what does THAT have to do with anything?

Go back to 2 Sam 12:11 for Nathan's curse from God on David.

Ahitophel or Ahithophel depending on how it's spelled, makes sure that Absalom fulfills that curse.

Eye opening. Later Absalom ignores Ahitophel who realizes then that Absalom will die and David will win, so he goes out and commits suicide after getting his affairs in order.

Now remember if Ahitophel is one of the wisest people in the land, and David really regards him highly in that ability, look at who is his GREAT GRANDSON thru Bathsheba. It's SOLOMON, God put the genes in Solomon, for wisdom, but later when Solomon ASKED for wisdom God made him the wisest man on earth and he is still a byword for wisdom.. We still say, the wisdom of Solomon.
 
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Spartan Sprinter 1

Well-Known Member
Nope, different Nathan. I've often wondered if David named his son called Nathan after Nathan the prophet though.

Got Questions here answers that (and they think so too)

https://www.gotquestions.org/Nathan-in-the-Bible.html

There is more interesting bits pieced together thru that union between David and Bathsheba.

I first heard of it thru Ken Johnson. Her grandfather was Ahitophel one of David's closest and most trusted advisors. here's where to look: A man named Ahitophel is mentioned in 2 Samuel 23:34 and he the father of Eliam. Since 2 Samuel 11:3 notes that Eliam is the father of Bathsheba, some scholars suggest that the Ahitophel of 2 Samuel 15 may in fact be Bathsheba's grandfather.

He was possibly ticked at how David got together with his grandaughter. Because look at 2 Samuel 15-17 or so to get the whole story of what Ahitophel does after the whole Bathsheba situation. He supports ABSOLOM's revolt and even encourages him to do this in chapter 16:


20 Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Give us your advice. What should we do?”

21 Ahithophel answered, “Sleep with your father’s concubines whom he left to take care of the palace. Then all Israel will hear that you have made yourself obnoxious to your father, and the hands of everyone with you will be more resolute.” 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.

23 Now in those days the advice Ahithophel gave was like that of one who inquires of God. That was how both David and Absalom regarded all of Ahithophel’s advice.

OK so what does THAT have to do with anything?

Go back to 2 Sam 12:11 for Nathan's curse from God on David.

Ahitophel or Ahithophel depending on how it's spelled, makes sure that Absalom fulfills that curse.

Eye opening. Later Absalom ignores Ahitophel who realizes then that Absalom will die and David will win, so he goes out and commits suicide after getting his affairs in order.

Now remember if Ahitophel is one of the wisest people in the land, and David really regards him highly in that ability, look at who is his GREAT GRANDSON thru Bathsheba. It's SOLOMON, God put the genes in Solomon, for wisdom, but later when Solomon ASKED for wisdom God made him the wisest man on earth and he is still a byword for wisdom.. We still say, the wisdom of Solomon.
Thanks athenesius, once again you gone the extra mile, im feelin sorry for david at the moment especially how absalom turned on him.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thanks athenesius, once again you gone the extra mile, im feelin sorry for david at the moment especially how absalom turned on him.
I just love reading tidbits which bring that person in the Bible to life.

Not every story is fun to read, this bit with Absalom sure wasn't but it shows how important that prophecy of Nathan was and how it was fulfilled, possibly Nathan speaking it within earshot of Bathsheba's grandfather Ahithophel.

Every little bit that makes it into the Word of God is important. David let us see and feel with him, thru the Psalms and the more I hear of his life from the lonely shepherd boy to the hunted hated son in law of Saul, to the friendship with Jonathan, the ups and downs over the king years and finally the inability to stay warm at the end with Bathsheba intervening to ensure Solomon became king, it all makes David like a near and dear friend.

I love to pass on the details I find. I always figure someone else is like me, glad to know more of the details behind the person.

I didn't know this till this year when I heard Ken Johnson mention it when he was doing something relating to Nathan.
 
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