Question of wars, battles, and timing

Macpreacher

New Member
Hi everyone,
its been a long time since I’ve shared on here but I do visit often and usually just glean wisdom from you all. With the Middle East in an uproar I have been wondering about the way we seem to place events like ps. 83, issaih 17, Ezekiel 38-39, Zeph. 2, Jer.49, etc..and with the names of countries,regions, and cities being mentioned in the news all around the world I’ve been wondering about timing. So let me ask you a question. Could the events of those Scriptures coincide together rather than be separate? Like could ps 83 or IS. 17 happen together with Ez. 38-39? Could they be placed within a multi faceted battle/ war that would expand the territory of Israel? In other words instead of separating the events could all these happen in rather quick succession? Will enjoy and value your remarks. Well maybe
 

Saved and Waiting

Well-Known Member
from gracethrufaith with Jack Kelley:

Q
Blessings to you and your work. Your comments are greatly appreciated and used in our Bible studies.
We have a question re the recent comments on psalm 83. Much as it seems to fit today's situation Hengstenberg points out that the Amalekites' mentioned as part of the federation were wiped out in the days of Hezekiah and never heard of again. Is it therefore not more likely that the psalm refers to a ‘confederation which destroyed itself in the days when the Amalekites were still around and that it is us nowadays who want to read more into it than was meant?
A
None of the nations named in Psalm 83 exist by their ancient names today, and several of the people groups have disappeared as well. The Amalekites, Edomites, and Philistines were all wiped out to the last person, and serious doubt exists where the Ammonites and Moabites are concerned. Yet nowhere in the Bible is a battle like the one Psalm 83 speaks of described.
This leads many scholars to conclude that it’s the people currently living in the lands occupied by those ancient nations who are involved. When you look at their proximity to Israel (they’re all next-door neighbors) and their unexplained absence from the roster of Ezekiel 38, it’s logical to conclude that Psalm 83 is a battle yet to come and that it precedes Ezekiel 38.
It also explains how Israel could be lulled into a false sense of peace to permit Ezekiel’s battle to take place, and how they could bury the enemy dead in a place that currently doesn’t belong to them but is said to be part of Israel in Ezekiel 39:11.
 

Anastacia

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone,
its been a long time since I’ve shared on here but I do visit often and usually just glean wisdom from you all. With the Middle East in an uproar I have been wondering about the way we seem to place events like ps. 83, issaih 17, Ezekiel 38-39, Zeph. 2, Jer.49, etc..and with the names of countries,regions, and cities being mentioned in the news all around the world I’ve been wondering about timing. So let me ask you a question. Could the events of those Scriptures coincide together rather than be separate? Like could ps 83 or IS. 17 happen together with Ez. 38-39? Could they be placed within a multi faceted battle/ war that would expand the territory of Israel? In other words instead of separating the events could all these happen in rather quick succession? Will enjoy and value your remarks. Well maybe

I appreciate your question! I wonder too! Many students of prophecy wonder if Is. 17 could happen and it would light the match for Ez 38 to happen on it's heels! And Jer 49 could possibly be another reference to Damascus being utterly destroyed (Is 17). Like you, I'm also wondering about Zeph 2. I'm leaning toward dual fulfillment since the cities named (Ashkelon, Ashdod, etc) have remained cities and have not become pasture lands... so perhaps, just maybe, we're seeing it set up for its ultimate fulfillment, even if it happens during the Trib. As for Ps 83, I'm not certain about that so hopefully something makes it obvious.

IMO, I wouldnt be surprised if it all happens quickly, just like the birth pains getting closer together. Maybe we're seeing the beginning of it all right now. I wake up every day and check if anything happened in Damascus.
 

JoyJoyJoy

I Shall Not Be Moved
I wonder if Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 happen around the same time??

I think we are all watching and just waiting to see how it unfolds.

It is interesting how the world seems to be exploding with hatred towards Israel.

Truly, I am not date setting but believe the Rapture could be close.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I wonder if Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 happen around the same time??

I think we are all watching and just waiting to see how it unfolds.

It is interesting how the world seems to be exploding with hatred towards Israel.

Truly, I am not date setting but believe the Rapture could be close.
I agree.

For a very long time now I've looked at the similarities between Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, the Edomite stuff in Zechariah or Obadiah (I'm drawing a blank here today), Ezek 32-vs 17-32, Jeremiah 49, Amos and some others. In one of the big threads @sawas did a wonderful chart showing the overlap between the various people groups.

It's quite interesting.
 

Jaybird

Well-Known Member
Lately I have been reading some articles that say that Psalm 83 is not a prophetic passage, but a "prayer". I know the conventional wisdom is that it is a prophetic passage and I have always believe that explanation. However, I did go back and read the Psalm and I can understand why they say it is not a prophecy. I am not a biblical scholar so perhaps there is something that I am missing. Any thoughts on this idea?
 

JoyJoyJoy

I Shall Not Be Moved
Lately I have been reading some articles that say that Psalm 83 is not a prophetic passage, but a "prayer". I know the conventional wisdom is that it is a prophetic passage and I have always believe that explanation. However, I did go back and read the Psalm and I can understand why they say it is not a prophecy. I am not a biblical scholar so perhaps there is something that I am missing. Any thoughts on this idea?
I think explanations vary...some argue prophecy, some a prayer.
I'm not a scholar either but I lean towards prophecy....just from different articles that I have read.
I still have a hard time with some books/chapters/verses...it's hard for me to know what's past and what is future.
 

Anastacia

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling a bit with all these prophecies because it's discouraging that none if it is obvious to me. There are so many different interpretations, and I feel like I need to be a scholar and a historian to understand any of it. I'm pretty solid in my understanding on Ez 38, *thought* I was solid on Is 17... but now, in light of the Israeli war, as everyone tries to figure out where we are prophetically, I'm all the more lost. Hearing so many analyses of Is 17, now I'm not sure what I think. Ps 83 has always been debatable, and when I read it, I don't quite hear it referring to the future. Maybe the same with Is 17. Maybe I have Ez 38 completely wrong too. If everything has so many different interpretations, how can we really know anything prophetically? I'm quite discouraged so I'm sorry to be a bummer. Really, all I know for certain is that Israel did become a nation again in one day. But...
*****How come nothing else is obvious from the plain reading of Scripture??? :(
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I'm struggling a bit with all these prophecies because it's discouraging that none if it is obvious to me. There are so many different interpretations, and I feel like I need to be a scholar and a historian to understand any of it. I'm pretty solid in my understanding on Ez 38, *thought* I was solid on Is 17... but now, in light of the Israeli war, as everyone tries to figure out where we are prophetically, I'm all the more lost. Hearing so many analyses of Is 17, now I'm not sure what I think. Ps 83 has always been debatable, and when I read it, I don't quite hear it referring to the future. Maybe the same with Is 17. Maybe I have Ez 38 completely wrong too. If everything has so many different interpretations, how can we really know anything prophetically? I'm quite discouraged so I'm sorry to be a bummer. Really, all I know for certain is that Israel did become a nation again in one day. But...
*****How come nothing else is obvious from the plain reading of Scripture??? :(
Don't be discouraged, some people are blessed with being able to discern end time prophecies , not all of us can understand or grasp it straight away like others may be able to, maybe it's even a spiritual gift to understand prophecy.

I personally now don't believe that Psalm 83 could be a prophecy either mainly because Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia has to be a part of this coalition that attacks them to fufil this prophecy.

Right now all 3 countries are for Israel , not to say that good could cause these countries to change their attitudes towards Israel me personally, i just don't see it happening.

Of those 3 countries, the only ones that may turn would be Egypt or Jordan i reckon. Saudi Arabia i can't really see them doing it due to the current Abraham accords they have with Israel and the fact that they are one of the protesters when Ezekiel 28 takes place
 

alisani

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling a bit with all these prophecies because it's discouraging that none if it is obvious to me. There are so many different interpretations, and I feel like I need to be a scholar and a historian to understand any of it. I'm pretty solid in my understanding on Ez 38, *thought* I was solid on Is 17... but now, in light of the Israeli war, as everyone tries to figure out where we are prophetically, I'm all the more lost. Hearing so many analyses of Is 17, now I'm not sure what I think. Ps 83 has always been debatable, and when I read it, I don't quite hear it referring to the future. Maybe the same with Is 17. Maybe I have Ez 38 completely wrong too. If everything has so many different interpretations, how can we really know anything prophetically? I'm quite discouraged so I'm sorry to be a bummer. Really, all I know for certain is that Israel did become a nation again in one day. But...
*****How come nothing else is obvious from the plain reading of Scripture??? :(
Timing of these prophetic events may be open to interpretation and speculation but none of that impacts the immenence of the rapture. It's our hope and sure truth. And nothing about wars or prophecy regarding those wars changes that. God is the author of peace, satan loves to bring confusion and disrupt that peace. H
Praying for the restoration of your peace.
 

Anastacia

Well-Known Member
I wish there was a way to *know* which prophecies God intends to be "dual fulfillment" (regarding Ps 83, Is 17, Zeph 2 etc etc).

That seems to be part of why we have so many different interpretations and expectations... Some say Is 17, Ps 83, and Zeph 2 were already fulfilled. Some say they will have their ultimate fulfillment during the Trib. Some say they will happen pre-Trib.

Also, there are several different interpretations of who the ancient nations are in modern day, or if they even still exist.

I like what AW says: the 30 minutes of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1) will be everybody making corrections to our pre-conceived prophecy charts! ;)
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I wish there was a way to *know* which prophecies God intends to be "dual fulfillment" (regarding Ps 83, Is 17, Zeph 2 etc etc).

That seems to be part of why we have so many different interpretations and expectations... Some say Is 17, Ps 83, and Zeph 2 were already fulfilled. Some say they will have their ultimate fulfillment during the Trib. Some say they will happen pre-Trib.

Also, there are several different interpretations of who the ancient nations are in modern day, or if they even still exist.

I like what AW says: the 30 minutes of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1) will be everybody making corrections to our pre-conceived prophecy charts! ;)

I think Psalm 83 might be a dual one. But I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. I think Psalm 83 is Pre-Trib as the 7 year Tribulation is focused on unbelieving Israel and unrepentant sinners and the judgments are for the whole world. These are some good articles for it:

https://www.raptureforums.com/end-times/psalm-83-preview-coming-attraction/

Isaiah 17 is not a dual prophecy. It is a prophecy that has not happened yet, but will here in the end times. Damascus is the world's longest constantly inhabited city. But one day the Bible tells us that it will cease to exist overnight. that has never happened to this point. It won't be a dual fulfillment prophecy. IT will happen one time and that is it.

This article should help: https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-prophecy/isaiah-17-oracle-concerning-damascus/

As for Zephaniah it appears that it referring to the Day of the Lord which is the 7 year Tribulation period. That has never occurred yet, so it is future.

Zephaniah Part 1 - https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/zephaniah-speaks-part-1/
Zephaniah Part 2 - https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/zephaniah-speaks-part-2-conclusion/

This is a good recent article on the end times wars in the Bible. But remember, all of us do have all the answers. The only who has all the answers is God. It's OK not to know everything about the end times. Don't let it stress you out. :)

https://www.raptureforums.com/end-times/a-summary-of-the-nine-wars-of-the-end-times/
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling a bit with all these prophecies because it's discouraging that none if it is obvious to me. There are so many different interpretations, and I feel like I need to be a scholar and a historian to understand any of it. I'm pretty solid in my understanding on Ez 38, *thought* I was solid on Is 17... but now, in light of the Israeli war, as everyone tries to figure out where we are prophetically, I'm all the more lost. Hearing so many analyses of Is 17, now I'm not sure what I think. Ps 83 has always been debatable, and when I read it, I don't quite hear it referring to the future. Maybe the same with Is 17. Maybe I have Ez 38 completely wrong too. If everything has so many different interpretations, how can we really know anything prophetically? I'm quite discouraged so I'm sorry to be a bummer. Really, all I know for certain is that Israel did become a nation again in one day. But...
*****How come nothing else is obvious from the plain reading of Scripture??? :(
I highly recommend the articles Chris links here-- please follow them up-- I can't recommend sites or books- that's against the site rules. He can as the owner and in the past I've found the sites he recommends pretty good especially Jack Kelly's site linked here by Chris in the first article source.

I think Psalm 83 might be a dual one. But I'm not sure anyone knows for sure. I think Psalm 83 is Pre-Trib as the 7 year Tribulation is focused on unbelieving Israel and unrepentant sinners and the judgments are for the whole world. These are some good articles for it:

https://www.raptureforums.com/end-times/psalm-83-preview-coming-attraction/

Isaiah 17 is not a dual prophecy. It is a prophecy that has not happened yet, but will here in the end times. Damascus is the world's longest constantly inhabited city. But one day the Bible tells us that it will cease to exist overnight. that has never happened to this point. It won't be a dual fulfillment prophecy. IT will happen one time and that is it.

This article should help: https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-prophecy/isaiah-17-oracle-concerning-damascus/

As for Zephaniah it appears that it referring to the Day of the Lord which is the 7 year Tribulation period. That has never occurred yet, so it is future.

Zephaniah Part 1 - https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/zephaniah-speaks-part-1/
Zephaniah Part 2 - https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/zephaniah-speaks-part-2-conclusion/

This is a good recent article on the end times wars in the Bible. But remember, all of us do have all the answers. The only who has all the answers is God. It's OK not to know everything about the end times. Don't let it stress you out. :)

https://www.raptureforums.com/end-times/a-summary-of-the-nine-wars-of-the-end-times/


Now I'm going to explain some stuff here but I'm not going to break the rules which state that we can't recommend any authors or books.

But what I can't do is explain everything in one shot. It's too big. I also recommend you go to the Ps 83 and Gog Magog sub forums and read some of the older threads-- there's a lot of information right there.

Let's just start with Psalm 83

Maybe it's a prophecy, maybe it's not. The current theological prophecy experts are divided on this. So I wouldn't worry too much about it. Personally I can't see this current war as fitting Psalm 83. The people groups and motivations are very very different.

The author of the Psalm 83 theory is a very good guy, and even he isn't sure about it being this war right now.

Look at the summary of the 9 Wars of the End Times which Chris links to at the very end of his post above. That is a very good outline.

Start here:
Psalm 83- has the following nations coming against Israel to wipe them out:
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine (West Bank/Gaza), Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

BUT WHO IS MISSING?

Currently Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are on reasonably good terms with Israel and they may say a lot of nasty stuff since Gaza invaded Israel on Oct 7 but they aren't doing anything at present.

AND WHO ARE THE MAIN PLAYERS?
Iran, Lebanon and Turkey are all aligning with Russia and China against Israel. Iran is the instigator here, using Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Gaza and even the "west bank" Palestinian groups as their proxies. Russia and China are aiding Iran in this from the background. Turkey is dialing up the rhetoric. So the main player Iran is using some of the Psalm 83 gang, but not all.

So if this was Psalm 83 there's 3 nations missing and a few added. Part of the argument for Psalm 83 is that it wipes out the near circle of enemies so that Israel is in the prerequisite state of peace before the next war-- Gog Magog as in Ezekiel 38 & 39. So far Jordan and Egypt and Saudi Arabia would need to be part of it, and they aren't. And we see Russia, China in the background and IRAN as a MAJOR MAJOR Instigator in this current war.

Now that doesn't mean that this current war won't morph into Psalm 83 (unlikely but possible).

If you want a war scenario that fits, read Ezek 32 from vs 17-32. This one is all about Terrorism, and it looks very much like Iran is the instigator. Compare it with Jeremiah 49 and Isaiah 17

What you'll find is that the modern equivalents are all appearing here. You need to learn what the ancient names are and the modern names. In that group you will find the following:

Egypt (in Ezek 32 it looks like Egypt has some unsavoury allies that drag her into a war that she ends up losing soldiers and possibly the life of her leader in)

Iran (as Elam- in Ezek 32 her connection to terror is mentioned over and over in emphasis) (Elam is also in Jeremiah 49 mentioning her missile launchers (bow))

Damascus and Syria are in ALL THREE PASSAGES which suggests we need to look at Isaiah 17 as happening in conjunction with something that destroys Elam (south west Iran) at the same time.

The Princes of the North show up. Since that passage in Ezek 32 already mentions Turkey (Meshek and Tubal) as well as Syria (Assyria which covered Syria and Iraq) AND Lebanon, the only other thing north of Israel would be Russia.

Lebanon (the Sidonians) appear in Ezek 32

Jordan shows up with the children of Ammon, Moab etc.

AND Turkey shows up as Meschech and Tubal (you need to go to the Genesis Table of Nations to figure it out or do some reading with good prophecy authors) but they are there, and Ez 32 suggests that they get hit so fast they don't have time to raise a weapon.

Which makes one of the bits in Jeremiah 49 (it's a parallel passage to Isaiah 17-- go look, destruction of Damascus is in both) very instructive because in the Damascus bit it talks about 2 of the current provinces of Syria between Damascus and Turkey. So whatever happens to Damascus catches Turkey off guard.

Note that Isaiah 17 talks of it as overnight.

So my thought is that we are seeing one of the possibly many precursors to the Isaiah 17/Jeremiah 49 and Ezek 32 war that lead up to that one.

Next is the Gog Magog in Ezek 38 & 39. I've written extensively on this topic in the sub forum under that name, just do a search.

Hopefully that sheds some light.
 

Anastacia

Well-Known Member
I highly recommend the articles Chris links here-- please follow them up-- I can't recommend sites or books- that's against the site rules. He can as the owner and in the past I've found the sites he recommends pretty good especially Jack Kelly's site linked here by Chris in the first article source.




Now I'm going to explain some stuff here but I'm not going to break the rules which state that we can't recommend any authors or books.

But what I can't do is explain everything in one shot. It's too big. I also recommend you go to the Ps 83 and Gog Magog sub forums and read some of the older threads-- there's a lot of information right there.

Let's just start with Psalm 83

Maybe it's a prophecy, maybe it's not. The current theological prophecy experts are divided on this. So I wouldn't worry too much about it. Personally I can't see this current war as fitting Psalm 83. The people groups and motivations are very very different.

The author of the Psalm 83 theory is a very good guy, and even he isn't sure about it being this war right now.

Look at the summary of the 9 Wars of the End Times which Chris links to at the very end of his post above. That is a very good outline.

Start here:
Psalm 83- has the following nations coming against Israel to wipe them out:
Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine (West Bank/Gaza), Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

BUT WHO IS MISSING?

Currently Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are on reasonably good terms with Israel and they may say a lot of nasty stuff since Gaza invaded Israel on Oct 7 but they aren't doing anything at present.

AND WHO ARE THE MAIN PLAYERS?
Iran, Lebanon and Turkey are all aligning with Russia and China against Israel. Iran is the instigator here, using Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Gaza and even the "west bank" Palestinian groups as their proxies. Russia and China are aiding Iran in this from the background. Turkey is dialing up the rhetoric. So the main player Iran is using some of the Psalm 83 gang, but not all.

So if this was Psalm 83 there's 3 nations missing and a few added. Part of the argument for Psalm 83 is that it wipes out the near circle of enemies so that Israel is in the prerequisite state of peace before the next war-- Gog Magog as in Ezekiel 38 & 39. So far Jordan and Egypt and Saudi Arabia would need to be part of it, and they aren't. And we see Russia, China in the background and IRAN as a MAJOR MAJOR Instigator in this current war.

Now that doesn't mean that this current war won't morph into Psalm 83 (unlikely but possible).

If you want a war scenario that fits, read Ezek 32 from vs 17-32. This one is all about Terrorism, and it looks very much like Iran is the instigator. Compare it with Jeremiah 49 and Isaiah 17

What you'll find is that the modern equivalents are all appearing here. You need to learn what the ancient names are and the modern names. In that group you will find the following:

Egypt (in Ezek 32 it looks like Egypt has some unsavoury allies that drag her into a war that she ends up losing soldiers and possibly the life of her leader in)

Iran (as Elam- in Ezek 32 her connection to terror is mentioned over and over in emphasis) (Elam is also in Jeremiah 49 mentioning her missile launchers (bow))

Damascus and Syria are in ALL THREE PASSAGES which suggests we need to look at Isaiah 17 as happening in conjunction with something that destroys Elam (south west Iran) at the same time.

The Princes of the North show up. Since that passage in Ezek 32 already mentions Turkey (Meshek and Tubal) as well as Syria (Assyria which covered Syria and Iraq) AND Lebanon, the only other thing north of Israel would be Russia.

Lebanon (the Sidonians) appear in Ezek 32

Jordan shows up with the children of Ammon, Moab etc.

AND Turkey shows up as Meschech and Tubal (you need to go to the Genesis Table of Nations to figure it out or do some reading with good prophecy authors) but they are there, and Ez 32 suggests that they get hit so fast they don't have time to raise a weapon.

Which makes one of the bits in Jeremiah 49 (it's a parallel passage to Isaiah 17-- go look, destruction of Damascus is in both) very instructive because in the Damascus bit it talks about 2 of the current provinces of Syria between Damascus and Turkey. So whatever happens to Damascus catches Turkey off guard.

Note that Isaiah 17 talks of it as overnight.

So my thought is that we are seeing one of the possibly many precursors to the Isaiah 17/Jeremiah 49 and Ezek 32 war that lead up to that one.

Next is the Gog Magog in Ezek 38 & 39. I've written extensively on this topic in the sub forum under that name, just do a search.

Hopefully that sheds some light.

Thank you for your patient explanations! I absolutely love studying and have been learning as much as I can since 1992, but I definitely do not grasp it as thoroughly as many on RF do! I get the "gist" of the historical and geopolitical parts of the war prophecies. I understand Ez 38 the best. I read the links Chris put up. I had a few questions but cant quite recall right now! But lately, I'm just not as certain about Is 17, Zeph, Jer 49. Some of the few trusted pastors I read and listen to have very good reasons for thinking Is. 17 was already fulfilled... and because I'm not a history expert, it leaves me with complete uncertainty as to what God actually means. Howcam I to know which prophecies are dual fulfillment??

...Here we are in the last few moments of the Church Age, seeing everything fall into place, and all my preconceived understanding isnt so solid anymore. So many differing views on every war prophecy. Why isn't it more obvious even as the dominos are being set up? Perhaps my long held expectations are also letting me down. For years, I really thought I understood Is. 17 just as you explain, but now I dont know. Like the original poster wondered, I thought it was a good possibility we'd see several of these wars happen in quick succession, leading up to Ez. 38.
And I know it's also a good possibility that the "author of confusion" is trying to trip me lately. I'm not even sure if it's appropriate to express the struggle to understand here on RF because I certainly dont want to be a stumbling block to anyone. The rapture, Ez 38, and Israel regathered, are all I'm confident I understand. But I assumed prophecy would become much easier to understand as the day approaches.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your patient explanations! I absolutely love studying and have been learning as much as I can since 1992, but I definitely do not grasp it as thoroughly as many on RF do! I get the "gist" of the historical and geopolitical parts of the war prophecies. I understand Ez 38 the best. I read the links Chris put up. I had a few questions but cant quite recall right now! But lately, I'm just not as certain about Is 17, Zeph, Jer 49. Some of the few trusted pastors I read and listen to have very good reasons for thinking Is. 17 was already fulfilled... and because I'm not a history expert, it leaves me with complete uncertainty as to what God actually means. Howcam I to know which prophecies are dual fulfillment??

...Here we are in the last few moments of the Church Age, seeing everything fall into place, and all my preconceived understanding isnt so solid anymore. So many differing views on every war prophecy. Why isn't it more obvious even as the dominos are being set up? Perhaps my long held expectations are also letting me down. For years, I really thought I understood Is. 17 just as you explain, but now I dont know. Like the original poster wondered, I thought it was a good possibility we'd see several of these wars happen in quick succession, leading up to Ez. 38.
And I know it's also a good possibility that the "author of confusion" is trying to trip me lately. I'm not even sure if it's appropriate to express the struggle to understand here on RF because I certainly dont want to be a stumbling block to anyone. The rapture, Ez 38, and Israel regathered, are all I'm confident I understand. But I assumed prophecy would become much easier to understand as the day approaches.
Part 2 so how do I cope with different opinions within good solid pre Trib, pre mill dispensational teachers? Without my head spinning?



At least 2 heavy hitters I love and read extensively think Isaiah 17 was fulfilled in the past. And MANY MORE that I think equally highly of —disagree agreeably with both of those 2.



Controversy and discussion abound about prophecy. Until it’s fulfilled- there will be debate.



This is why it’s important not to just listen or read from 1 or two favourite teachers. Read widely from good solid Bible teachers and pray asking God to illuminate His Word. Don’t just listen to 1 or 2 and read a third. Listen to about 3-4 and read from about 7 or 8.



I can’t point you to the ones I know- that’s against the rules - you will have to prayerfully look on your own. But I will tell you how to look.



Ask for God to show you.



Ask for God to illuminate the Word. Study the Bible passages- use e-Sword to easily find other references to the destruction of Damascus for example. Check for repeating themes across all the prophets. It’s important to really get to know these passages.



I don’t throw out the Psalm 83 teachers because I don’t fully agree with them- 1 of them gave the best most historically accurate reason why Isaiah 17 is yet future, and why it most definitely was NOT fulfilled in the past.



I totally agree- Isaiah 17 is yet future!



If I didn’t read his books because I disagree with him on some of the aspects of Psalm 83 I’d have missed it.



But I also might have missed his point completely if I wasn’t aware of historical sources and just focused on Biblical texts alone.



Historical sources outside the Bible are often ignored because they aren’t Biblical and aren’t 100 % accurate. Or because people aren’t aware of biblical historical sources outside the Bible.



Herodotus and Josephus for example. When did you hear of them in public school lately??? After 1950 & the dumbing down movement took hold. Well educated people before then were aware, but nowadays???



The earliest of the early Church Fathers aren’t studied much by modern Seeker Friendly pastors or their flocks. But these men sat at the feet of John and other disciples. Or the learned from those who did.



Guess what? If you study them they’re awfully dispensational, pre mill and pre Trib Rapture believers. That would put a cork in the arguments of people who say the church never taught that till Darby. Nuh unh! It DID! We just got too lazy or ignorant to go look.



It sounds so holy and Biblical to say you only need the Bible and that’s true



BUT



- if you ignore history then you’re in danger of not seeing when prophecy was fulfilled in the past.



You’re in danger of being like the Jews of Jesus time who got scolded by Jesus for NOT KNOWING THE TIME OF THEIR VISITATION. They should have known what time Jesus would appear



BECAUSE DANIEL GAVE THE VERY DAY Jesus would present Himself as THE MESSIAH. We call it Palm Sunday now.



But they’d have to KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THE DECREE FROM ATAXERXES went out.



And almost 2000 years later an English head of Scotland Yard would again prove that connection by repeating the same mathematical prophecy given in Daniel. That astonished the theologians of his era- late Victorians —and helped bring about the restoration of study of prophecy.



You don’t need to dive deep into the historical source documents- just be aware of them and when good Bible teachers use them to make a point. Make notes.



LASTLY How to get a good tiny reference library explaining prophecy for beginners. E books are often sold for prices I find in second hand bookstores but either way it’ll help build a reference library for cheap.



Good teachers: 3 dos and 4 don’ts.



They Are or DO:



1: Pre mil, pre Trib, and dispensational because until you’re grounded in the truth you don’t need all the opposite points of view if ever. It’s the only point of view that doesn’t blow off prophecy as allegory or occurring in the first century of the church so according to some of them - we’re actually in the allegorical Millennium now! - BUT If we’re in the Millennium now, then Satan’s on an awfully long leash as one good guy jokes about that position. Stick to the literal, historical, grammatical hermaneutic!



2: Teach clearly- they often write other books but usually include an overview book for beginners to get the big picture. NOT REAL TITLES - they’ll say things like 7 things you need to know about prophecy, or prophecy for beginners/dummies or the blue print of prophecy- those title types give a clue that it’s a simple, clear overview and broken up into subcategories. The article linked by Chris explaining the 9 wars is a great example of a clear overview title. You get a better perspective of the big picture before zeroing in on the details.



3: include their sources meaning their historical sources and their theological sources. Footnotes are often used because they want to be clear and transparent. Not every good teacher does this but those who do are particularly interested in being super clear. Bonus points for them! It goes without saying that they should include every scripture reference if not the text itself.



They DON’T:



4: They DON’T include blood moons, shemitah cycles, Mayan calendars etc UNLESS THEY ARE BUSY DEBUNKING that stuff. Several of my favourites blow those theories right out of the water.



5: They DON’T wander in circles explaining “hidden mysteries” that aren’t clearly obvious in The Bible. Even the most confusing prophetic scriptures are still in the Bible for everyone to read but these misguided people need you to use them alone as your guide. They rely heavily on explanations of certain passages that nobody but themselves has interpreted this new unique way. The blind leading the blind!



6:They DON’T set dates. Or get around that by explaining it’s just a “high watch” period. We’re supposed to always be watching. We can know the season but not the day or hour.



7: They DON’T tickle people’s ears by saying what people want to hear- which means getting on a popular topic like Mayan calendars a few years ago and selling a truckload of books devoted to explaining why the Mayans were on par with Biblical prophets.



Hope that’s a help. I’m going to add a bit more on the whole Psalm 83 vs Ezekiel 32:17-32, Jeremiah 49 & Isaiah 17 passages next.



—————————————-
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Part 3:

So wait a minute you might ask- this Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & Ezekiel 32:17-32 scenario has Jordan and Egypt in the war and we don’t see that yet either so why is this more likely than say Psalm 83?

First of all this war isn’t yet any prophetic war. We might see a few wars with Israel yet that simply serve to set the stage for the big ones.

It IS significant- any war involving Israel has the potential to morph into a prophetic fulfillment or to set things up for a war in future which will fulfill a prophecy.

This one did 2 important things so far -1- it united all Israel in ONE DAY from civil war into a determined single nation. 2- It focused all Israel on the fact that they can’t negotiate with people who want to annihilate them. It seems to have triggered a huge wave of antisemitism globally that we haven’t seen since the Holocaust.



Secondly we see additional groups: Iran, Russia and Turkey involved in the conflict behind the scenes. Iran is the most obvious but don’t discount the efforts of other 2.

Russia trained Hamas with drones and computers.

Turkey is using the war to drum up support among the Sunni world in a bid for a return to the old Ottoman Empire which included Israel, Syria and Jordan!



What do Russia, Iran and Turkey have in common? Glad you ask! Ezekiel 38 and the war of Gog Magog. Hmmm so why does that matter?

Because these 3 DON’T show up in Psalm 83. But they sure do in Jeremiah 49 and Ezekiel 32:17-32.

So it gives them all a military setback ahead of Ezekiel 38 that sets them up to want payback on a peaceful Israel recovering from war just as Ezekiel 38&39 describes.



Why include Isaiah 17 and the destruction of Damascus then?

Because Isaiah 17 isn’t the only clear passage talking about Damascus being destroyed. So does Jeremiah 49. Ezekiel 32 doesn’t say Damascus but it includes Assyria which today means Syria and parts of Iraq.

AND because Jeremiah 49 plus Ezekiel 32 include the destruction of ELAM which is present day Iran- but only about 1/4 to 1/3 of it down in the south west corner by the Persian Gulf.

So these 3 passages by 3 major prophets are intertwined. There’s others I could include but for simplicity I focus on these 3. And the 2 important links between all 3 are Elam- part of modern Iran and Damascus/Syria.



Let’s pause and reflect on that. Damascus (which right now is a Russian & Iranian proxy) and Iran.



Remember above when I pointed out there’s a significant presence of Russia in Ezekiel 32:17-32? The princes of the North. Ok you might ask but why is that Russia. It’s not obvious.

Because in that Ezekiel 32 passage we already saw the other major players sitting North from Israel. Turkey as Meschek & Tubal, Lebanon as the Sidonians and Syria as Assyria. The only other major player from the north is Russia.

Another factor in this current war is the theme of terrorism which runs right through Ezekiel 32:17-32.



Let’s look at another angle which is how this or any other war - prophetic or not sets the stage for future prophetic wars like Ezekiel 38

The Psalm 83 author who I can’t mention here states that the reason Psalm 83 is important is because it deals with the inner ring of enemies who are significant in their absence from Ezekiel 38. So in that scenario Israel wipes out her nearest enemies and that’s a GREAT point.



So we actually could see that fulfilment alongside Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & Ezekiel 32



but



the key is whether Saudi Arabia as Sheba & Dedan get involved.



Psalm 83 includes them as Ishmaelites (descendants of Ishmael) and then Egypt comes in as either Ishmael or Egypt as Hagarenes or Hagrites. There was a tribe out of Ishmael who were called by that name who roamed around northern Israel, Jordan and southern Syria but in the Psalm 83 scenario that group may represent Egypt because Hagar, mother of Ishmael was Egyptian. Confusing- it’s an area of debate within Psalm 83 proponents.



So Egypt is only a maybe player in Psalm 83. Ishmael father of all the Arabs definitely is. And that includes Dedan who is a tribe of Ishmael and connected with Saudi Arabia. Mentioned with Sheba in Ezekiel 38.



What to look for?

Whether Egypt and Jordan get sucked in to any war that includes Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine (West Bank/Gaza), Egypt and Saudi Arabia. That’s Psalm 83

Or
they get sucked into a war that includes:

Egypt

Iran (as Elam
- the south western area only)

Damascus and Syria

The Princes of the North
show up. Since that passage in Ezek 32 already mentions Turkey (Meshek and Tubal) as well as Syria (Assyria which covered Syria and Iraq) AND Lebanon, the only other thing north of Israel would be Russia.

Lebanon (the Sidonians)

Jordan shows up with the children of Ammon, Moab etc.

AND Turkey shows up as Meschech and Tubal

Then you’re looking at Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 and Ezekiel 32:17-32

Either one (or a combination of both - look at the overlap between both scenarios) would set up the Ezekiel 38 players to come invade a peaceful Israel dwelling securely without walls in the mountains of Israel (most of that area is the so called West Bank currently).



The motives are different

Psalm 83 is all about wiping out Israel as a nation - but currently Saudi Arabia is making public statements about Israel’s right to exist and even that they are the rightful owners of the Temple Mount.

When the Psalm 83 theory was started Saudi Arabia was completely different and wanted to wipe out Israel. The shift over the past few years reflects a growing position ready for Ezekiel 38 where Sheba & Dedan abstain from invading and question Russia.

Isaiah 17 is about attack for plunder, and so is Ezekiel 38 but that doesn’t mean they’re the same.

Ezekiel 32 is all about Terrorism as the main motive and it’s why God destroys their armies. Note that each country still exists- that isn’t a final destruction so it allows for Turkey, Iran (Persia) and Russia to reappear in Ezekiel 38.



BUT WHAT IF WE IGNORED Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49, Ezekiel 32:17-32 AND Psalm 83???

Like ignored all of them.

Nothing! Nothing bad will happen.

Let’s say that they really were fulfilled in the past like you are worried about. How does that affect our understanding of passages like Ezekiel 38 & 39??? Or the rest of the Bible.

It doesn’t have to stop us from understanding Ezekiel 38 & 39 as a future prophecy at all. Or understanding The Bible as a whole.

It might make us wonder what war Israel returned from or how come they’re sitting peacefully on the mountains of Israel aka the infamous West Bank but prophecy stands, and The Bible stands whether or not we think we got all the details sorted out.


God won’t get mad at you if you take a pause and avoid the subject for now while you study His Word as a whole.

Be open to God bringing you understanding- continue to read and study these puzzling passages too, but know that He isn’t scoring us based on whether we get the finer points of Ez 32 OR 38 just perfect

Because none of us have perfect understanding of all these passages. Not even the most expertly expert of the experts.



Be patient and wait on God to shine His Holy Spirit spotlight on His Word. He will. You’ll be reading one day and all of a sudden something will pop out, and everything will make sense.

Be patient with His process. His timeline is not ours, but when He answers a long standing question it’s in perfect time. Keep studying because that illumination happens as we are in His Word.

Big hugs sister and I will keep checking in with you on this.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
One final point- we may not see ANY OF THESE WARS. I’ve long thought that Isaiah 17 (& the related bits) might very likely occur AFTER THE RAPTURE!

My reasoning is that the wording God uses sound like the church is gone. I have to stop writing for a while but the key takeaway is that I actually don’t expect us to be here for Ezekiel 38 & 39

and probably also for the precursor war (Isa 17 etc) that sets up conditions before Ezekiel 38.

We might be here still but I doubt it. I can dive into the wording in future but for now you can rest easily with a state of uncertainty about this war or any other because we most likely (in my opinion) will not be here for Isaiah 17 or Ezekiel 38.

If we see wars between now and the Rapture unless it’s an obvious (like CNN squawking that Damascus got vaporized last night) fulfillment then we should be feeling that nothing quite fits.
 
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