Question Keeps Me Up At Night: Fight or Surrender?

sawas

Well-Known Member
Moving to philosophical musings: I am not familiar with the laws of other nations, but in the U.S., the Constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms, and that isn't just for hunting. Since it is legal to bear arms for self-defense, I would say that Romans 13 allows for lethal force to be used by an American against an intruder who may have violent intent.

Christians, in the same chapter, are not given the option to engage in violent insurrection against the government. The question is, what is the legitimate government? The Constitution declares itself to be the "supreme law of the land". Practically speaking, the Federal Government is the supreme law of the land, and it often overrides the Constitutional limits set for it.

If an American Christian obeys a Federal law that violates the Constitution, is he in compliance with Romans 13? Or, vise versa?

As Americans we are not subjects like those in Rome were or any other nation in history. We are the rulers and sovereigns over the government not the other way around. We have the obligation as the guardians to see our nation follows the constitution. We not only have the right but the duty to overthrow those who seek to destroy our nation as granted in the declaration of independence. Please read our founding documents and what the founders wrote to see what our rights and responsibilities are as American citizens.

I think your musings are interesting and rather relevant, notably the statement I've highlighted. The primary purpose of our Constitution is to restrain government from interfering with the citizen's right to "moral agency" (aka "freedom). Pres. Obama lamented this, rightly calling it a document of "negative rights" because of its explicit restraint on - not our freedom- but government freedom. The rights specified in it are God-given, but they imply (IMHO) commensurate obligations of individual citizens to protect those rights and prevent tyranny. This point was well made by @jerichoo777, as cited below. But, I'd like to provide the following amplifications.

This duty, we may note, has actually been codified (variously) for the purposes of administering the oath of office to our representatives (politicians), the oath of service for our military personnel, AND (rather significantly) the "Oath of Allegiance" made by naturalized citizens. All of these must swear to "support and defend the Constitution". It seems rather unlikely that an argument could be crafted that it somehow this duty doesn't apply to the rest of us. IF we had preserved basic education in American History, Civics, Ethics, Philosophy, Rhetoric and Reason, we'd know better than to think this is duty can be shirked without consequence. One might say, the repercussions of that (like removing prayer from school) was more-or-less "baked in the cake" (per Galatians 6:7).

This duty doesn't (technically, by law) exist in any other country, where rights are granted by and can be revoked by the government. Some other countries have attempted to adopt versions of the US Constitution model, but have always failed to incorporate (or preserve) the cohesive logic and, more importantly, the underlying foundation of the document, notably best described by John Adams:

“Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” - John Adams, Letter to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, October 11, 1798.

As we have become, along with the rest of the world, an amoral and a non-religious people, the precepts of our Constitution are failing (and/or have failed). But, it remains (technically) the law of the land and if Christians are to obey the supreme law of the land - which was intended to protect their right to obey God Himself - we need to take that into consideration. Not that the sort of resistance that may be required would prevent being squished like a bug. It almost certainly guarantees it.

I'd add one more (albeit provocative) thought. I've read here (often enough) that using lethal force against criminals (or tyrants) would lead to the death of those who (ostensibly) might be converted. That's simply a logical fallacy. The principal justification for such violence is to prevent them from taking that freedom (to choose and/or obey God) from their victims, including oneself.

As Americans we are not subjects like those in Rome were or any other nation in history. We are the rulers and sovereigns over the government not the other way around. We have the obligation as the guardians to see our nation follows the constitution. We not only have the right but the duty to overthrow those who seek to destroy our nation as granted in the declaration of independence. Please read our founding documents and what the founders wrote to see what our rights and responsibilities are as American citizens.
 

jerichoo777

Well-Known Member
I'd add one more (albeit provocative) thought. I've read here (often enough) that using lethal force against criminals (or tyrants) would lead to the death of those who (ostensibly) might be converted. That's simply a logical fallacy. The principal justification for such violence is to prevent them from taking that freedom (to choose and/or obey God) from their victims, including oneself.
Further following this logic to it's conclusion, then one could argue that there should be no military response to evil and no police either because evil people could die. This type of logic leads to the brutal death of innocence. The world will only be the way it should be when Jesus is reigning from His throne until then Americans have the duty and right to rule over government.
America was organized to have righteous and moral people rule rather than the despots and dictators from all of history. Tell me of any other nation that was as great as America?
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
As we have become, along with the rest of the world, an amoral and a non-religious people, the precepts of our Constitution are failing (and/or have failed).

Very interesting post. :nod

This section I think gives clarity as to what at least one response is needed for our country. Getting that Gospel out and people back into good churches. Maybe the best Sword is the sword of the Word of God.

Perhaps focus on people of our country for God will then affect our government more substantially. :pray ing that God brings more workers to add to the ones faithfully doing so. :pray
 
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Coram Deo777

Well-Known Member
Look at how Jesus trusted in the Father when He was standing before Pilate. He answered,
"You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." ~John 19:11

I believe that wherever God sends/calls us to be or go through, He also equip us.

Luke 21:12-15 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. This will result in your being witnesses to them.
14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves.

For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict."

Luke 21:14 reminds me of Daniel who ",, purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, ,,,"
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
Further following this logic to it's conclusion, then one could argue that there should be no military response to evil and no police either because evil people could die. This type of logic leads to the brutal death of innocence. The world will only be the way it should be when Jesus is reigning from His throne until then Americans have the duty and right to rule over government.
America was organized to have righteous and moral people rule rather than the despots and dictators from all of history. Tell me of any other nation that was as great as America?
That's exactly right. Most have simply lost sight of how unique this country was intended to be and, once upon a time, aspired to be.

I'm sympathetic to those who (I think rightly) recognize that, having lost our moral and religious requirements, for all practical purposes the Constitution is now null and void (aka "where prohibited by law" as it were). It does muddy the waters such that actual (armed) resistance would, undoubtedly, be cast and widely perceived to be domestic terrorism. That's reality too.

On the other hand, I've admired a number of public officials (like the town sheriff here in Washington State that ran for Governor this last election) who have taken a stand against unconstitutional laws.

Edit: I'd also caution anyone who might (however legitimately) consider any sort of armed resistance that the enemy would like nothing better than to appear justified in their response to it. The so-called "insurrection" at the Capital on 1/6 should serve as a clear demonstration of this principle. The woman who was shot, it now seems likely to me, was boosted through that door window by Antifa agitators (who also broke the window). Not helpful in the least.
 
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sawas

Well-Known Member
Very interesting post. :nod

This section I think gives clarity as to what at least one response is needed for our country. Getting that Gospel out and people back into good churches. Maybe the best Sword is the sword of the Word of God.

Perhaps focus on people of our country for God will then affect our government more substantially. :pray ing that God brings more workers to add to the ones faithfully doing so. :pray
Absolutely. That is the critical foundation. To whatever extent America has succeeded in it's grand experiment, can only be attributed to the extent to which we have been able to adhere to that standard.

Edit: As a corollary, whenever we've lost our way, it was because we lost sight of that standard.
 
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Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
With your post in mind and thinking of a possibility that I could be taken into captivity for being a Christian it has me think of My favorite Bible books that are all from the Apostle Paul. There’s a lot of them that he wrote while in prison. He is a prime example of how to handle situations if we should find ourselves dealing with being taken captive into FEMA camps, a jail or prison, or any place where we could be held as a prisoner because we are Christians. It isn’t something any of us would want to find ourselves facing but we should always be prepared for it in case it should happen because it’s not something we would find unusual if that were to happen to any of us be abuse the servant is not greater than the Master. If Jesus was persecuted then we would expect the same. That doesn’t mean it will happen but it can so we should be prepared for it

Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also
John 1:20

Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.
1 Peter 4:22

I think the most experiences of being taken captive and imprisoned but using it as an opportunity is Paul

You can read his experiences with that in
Acts, the book of Acts speaks of Paul being the captor of Christians while he was Saul, but then comes his conversion and later become a captive
He was also taken captive and wrote these letters from prison:
Philippians
The two letters of Timothy
The books of Thessalonians
Titus
Colossians
Philemon
These all were written while Paul was a prisoner for his faith. He is an inspiration for all of us so that if we were to ever fall captive to enemies of the gospel we can see it as an opportunity rather than seeing it as being like an animal caught in a snare.

I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel,
Philippians 1:12

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 Paul speaks about the sufferings he endured even as a prisoner. Good chapter to read for every Christian dealing with persecution or fears of being persecuted.

As for the use of the “sword” should we be captured, arrested, or taken into custody for the sake of our faith, I don’t think it’s necessary to “draw weapons” per say, to avoid being taken into custody. Jesus gives us an example with what Peter did when Jesus was arrested.

While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.

50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”[d]

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Matthew 26:47-52

If that question keeps you up at night read those books of the Bible from Paul. He is such a comfort and encouragement for those kinds of fears.

Praying for you. You will be alright. Keep your eyes on the prize.
Love in Jesus
 
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Lovin Jesus

Well-Known Member
Very interesting post. :nod

This section I think gives clarity as to what at least one response is needed for our country. Getting that Gospel out and people back into good churches. Maybe the best Sword is the sword of the Word of God.

Perhaps focus on people of our country for God will then affect our government more substantially. :pray ing that God brings more workers to add to the ones faithfully doing so. :pray

Matthew 9:28
Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field."
 

Donna2

Active Member
Jesus didn't come here to call His people to overthrow the Romans..............altho, that is what many Jews were hoping for.
They believed their messiah would bring them out from under the grievious laws of them.
I don't believe He has called us to try to overthrow the evil governments of today either.
He called us to follow Him and share the gospel. . . . (period).
As society continues down the wide path and more and more refuse to hear, and fewer and fewer are being saved, as we near
that ultimate person who will be the last one.......... the church age will slowly end. I think we are seeing that happening now.
Which means we are soon going home.

Everything else here will be handled by our Lord during the trib.

So, share the gospel with whomever God brings to you to hear..........
Love your brothers and sisters in Christ, and pray for them and support them with caring hearts.
And, LOOK UP! For our salvation draws nigh..........
That is ALL He has called us to do.
Amen
 

ChildofLight

Well-Known Member
This question keeps going back and forth in my mind. When "they" come for us, do we fight for our lives, our kids, our property (Jesus told the disciples to buy a sword (Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" Luke 22:36.) Why did Jesus want us to have an actual sword?
Since I do not use a gun and am basically old and tired at this point of my life, I like to think of the verse as buying THE WORD OF GOD and using it.

I think of the verse
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
 

Lady Di

Finishing my race with joy
Everyone has to answer this one by following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Personally, I would not fight the tyrants, but neither would I go meekly into the cattle car. If they wanted me to go, they would have to use force. If they threaten me with lethal force (i.e. a gun), then I guess they would have to shoot me. Give me liberty or give me death is my motto.
 

Bethlehem57

Well-Known Member
Mark 13:11 “And when they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you at that time; for you are not the ones speaking, but it is the Holy Spirit."

My belief is that the Holy Spirit will direct us both on what to do and what to say. Don’t lose sleep. The creator of Heaven and Earth has got this.
Thank you for this! I get so angry when I look at the news and admittedly, even here with my brothers and sisters. Not at you guys! Anger with what the left is doing. I have to keep looking up and I have stopped reading a lot of fiction. I find comfort in opening my Bible and I just start reading. It really does bring peace! This world makes me cry! I want to go home, but our Lord asks us to be patient, so I will stay “stapled” to Him!

How would I handle this? We don’t have much that they could want, so take it. Nothing in this world matters. If they tried to hurt my kids, it would be a fight. I would die trying to protect them. But, I do not focus on this. I take one day at a time and pray for Jesus soon to call His Church. They can only kill me once. They can’t take what’s precious...my soul belongs to God and NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY!
 

PortWen

Well-Known Member
With your post in mind and thinking of a possibility that I could be taken into captivity for being a Christian it has me think of My favorite Bible books that are all from the Apostle Paul. There’s a lot of them that he wrote while in prison. He is a prime example of how to handle situations if we should find ourselves dealing with being taken captive into FEMA camps, a jail or prison, or any place where we could be held as a prisoner because we are Christians. It isn’t something any of us would want to find ourselves facing but we should always be prepared for it in case it should happen because it’s not something we would find unusual if that were to happen to any of us be abuse the servant is not greater than the Master. If Jesus was persecuted then we would expect the same. That doesn’t mean it will happen but it can so we should be prepared for it

I think the most experiences of being taken captive and imprisoned but using it as an opportunity is Paul

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 11 Paul speaks about the sufferings he endured even as a prisoner. Good chapter to read for every Christian dealing with persecution or fears of being persecuted.

Praying for you. You will be alright. Keep your eyes on the prize.

100%. Paul is a huge comfort to me too, and I‘m drawn to his writings, and spend a fair amount of time these days just reminding myself of all he went through, and it really encourages me. I do have an anticipation of being imprisoned for my faith, if not dying for it one day, and have been so afraid as I see the world hurtling into insanity. But the more I pray and reflect on Biblical accounts of the persecution on Gods people, especially Paul, the more at peace I am.

Your last words, ” keep your eyes on the prize”, are the exact same words I tell myself every day.

Corrie ten Boom recounted this:

Father sat down on the edge of the narrow bed. "Corrie," he began gently, "when you and I go to Amsterdam-when do I give you your ticket?"​

I sniffed a few times, considering this.​

"Why, just before we get on the train."​

"Exactly. And our wise Father in heaven knows when we're going to need things, too. Don't run out ahead of Him, Corrie. When the time comes that some of us will have to die, you will look into your heart and find the strength you need-just in time.”​

 
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Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
But I have yet to read in the Bible about Fema camps. It's an American concern. I've never fully understood what the fixation is on Fema camps.

I wouldn't call it an American concern but the concern of a small minority who seem attracted to conspiracy theory type websites. I stumbled upon some on that topic once and thought it was absolutely hilarious what I was reading. Then there's 10,000 other sites all saying the same stuff and nodding in agreement with each other while a relatively small number of people eat up the information and think it's all real, and then share it on non-conspiracy theory websites (like RF) thinking they're doing everyone a favor by providing the information that is real in their mind.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
He is a prime example of how to handle situations if we should find ourselves dealing with being taken captive into FEMA camps,

It might be better to just say camps, or detention camps given that the FEMA ones are part of a loony conspiracy theory. Maybe they'll be homeland security camps or dept of re-education camps...
 

lismore

Well-Known Member
Your thoughts, please?
Hello Patreseeha! I'm sorry that you feel that you may be under physical threat in the future. In this country I have always found the number of believers to be low, therefore it's a lonely walk, but at the moment we're not under physical threat and hopefully it isn't on the horizon. But perhaps this scripture might be helpful: But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15).
God willing the rapture will be soon, we'll go to a far better place. On that moment countries and politics and the world we leave behind won't matter at all. What will matter is how far we shared the gospel with others and how far we served fellow believers. God Bless You :)
 
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Jumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Just think - if they round us all up and put us together.........can you imagine the POWER and anointing that would come from above as we kneel and pray with one another?
It would be a stupid move for them and a glorious move for us as we gather together with one mind and one accord. They could start a huge revival! Remember what happened when they put Peter and the other disciples in jail?

I John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
 

Kerbluey

Well-Known Member
I believe if/when that time comes God will let you/us know what to do. I honestly don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. I recently sought an answer from Him on something life altering. He clearly gave me my answer, and not only that, but He reinforced it several times through His Word and a Christian devotional (because I’m a doubting Kerbluey and need reinforcement). He knows He’s dealing with defective and unreliable equipment (us!), so I’m confident He will show us when we need to know.
 

alisani

Well-Known Member
I believe if/when that time comes God will let you/us know what to do. I honestly don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer. I recently sought an answer from Him on something life altering. He clearly gave me my answer, and not only that, but He reinforced it several times through His Word and a Christian devotional (because I’m a doubting Kerbluey and need reinforcement). He knows He’s dealing with defective and unreliable equipment (us!), so I’m confident He will show us when we need to know.
1000%
 

SBH29

Well-Known Member
If we don't fight, wouldn't that be the same as "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"?

I plan to fight, if anything, my actions could encourage others to fight and stop a tyrannical government, which could ultimately save other lives.
 
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