Question about the Anti-Christ

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I'm looking at "Footsteps " now and this is what Fruchtenbaum says:

From Revelation 17:7 it is clear that the Beast is the same as the one found Revelation 13 and is the same as the fourth beast of Daniel 7. This beast has ten horns and seven heads. In Revelation 17:8 and in Revelation 13, the death and resurrection of the AC is described with the subsequent worship of him.

Further:

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/understanding-revelation-17/

Understanding Revelation 17
By Jack Kelley

Question: The following passage is from Revelation 17.

“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”

The passage says that the 7 heads are 7 kings (kingdoms) which represent the 7 world empires (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek, Roman, and the revived roman empire of the Anti-Christ). The passage then goes on to say that the beast who once was and now is not, which is describing the anti-christ is an 8th king. I cant quite figure this out. If the Antichrist and his government are counted as one of the seven, why is he then called an 8th king? Any help you can give me would be much appreciated.

Answer: I believe that John’s intent was to inform us that the anti-Christ will not be in command of the revived Roman Empire, but will come from outside its power structure to take command, somehow superseding the established world leadership in the process. Rev. 13:3-4 seems to concur. This makes me skeptical of the popular effort to identify him by looking at current world leaders.

Finally:

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/understanding-revelation-1711/

Understanding Revelation 17:11
By Jack Kelley

Question: I was hoping you could give me your understanding of Rev. 17:11.

“And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

Thank you and God bless.

Answer: We know the beast as the anti-Christ. When John was writing he had been active in the world, but currently was not. To me this means John was referring to Judas, who had been alive but currently wasn’t. In Rev. 17: 8 John had said that He will return for a little while. He was looking toward the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. Judas and the anti-Christ are the only two men in history personally indwelt by Satan, (John 13:27) and I believe that’s why John tied them together.

The anti-Christ will come from among the seven Gentile kingdoms of the world, but isn’t one of their kings. The seven are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Persia and Rome in its two iterations. In John’s time the first 5 had fallen, one was in power, and one was yet to come (Rev. 17:10). The one in power was the 1st Rome, and the one to come is the 2nd Rome.

At the end of his time the anti-Christ will go into utter destruction, which is what the Greek word translated perdition means.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
What if it's another fallen angel that inhabits the beast? He is given authority and power from Satan but is another fallen angel. I also wonder if it could be Judas.

Satan indwells the AC because he has the world worshiping the AC as a result of his acts and the resurrection from the dead. Satan indwells the AC because it is Satan that wants the worship of mankind. That has been his whole thing all along through history. He wants to be worshiped as God is and that is his motivation.
 

Footsteps

Well-Known Member
Years ago we had a visiting pastor determined
to prove to me that the Bible tells us exactly who
the AC is. He showed me that Judas was
referred to as “the son of perdition” and I
was respectful but completely unconvinced. The theory in this thread relates to a being
who once lived in history and will be resurrected by the False Prophet. This thread features that
concept but I have not heard that point of view
since my encounter with the visiting pastor
which was about forty years ago.
The identity of the A/C has intrigued us for years, just like the identification of the exact Rapture
date. And therein lies the same reason for caution regarding fascination with specific answers to
these mysteries: they remain mysteries.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Years ago we had a visiting pastor determined
to prove to me that the Bible tells us exactly who
the AC is. He showed me that Judas was
referred to as “the son of perdition” and I
was respectful but completely unconvinced. The theory in this thread relates to a being
who once lived in history and will be resurrected by the False Prophet. This thread features that
concept but I have not heard that point of view
since my encounter with the visiting pastor
which was about forty years ago.
The identity of the A/C has intrigued us for years, just like the identification of the exact Rapture
date. And therein lies the same reason for caution regarding fascination with specific answers to
these mysteries: they remain mysteries.

Yep, we will have to wait and watch from the balcony seats in Heaven to see who the AC turns out to be. The rapture can happen anytime, so we are to be about the Father's business in the meantime instead of trying to do some fancy mental calculus to come up with dates for the rapture. We all need to stay focused on the prize and to finish the race before us. JMHO.
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
What if it's another fallen angel that inhabits the beast?
This is a possibility as well. Although scripture doesn’t point this out directly, it could be a plausible explanation. It could be an evil spirit that ascends out of the bottomless pit and inhibits the man of sin (Antichrist). It’s possible, but they way I see revelation describe the beast there no mention of this happening, only that a specific individual known as the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit.

I think I might put this topic in one of my “un-answered” sections on my notes. I think I ran into one of those topics that could have endless different scenarios.

Still a very interesting topic though, and I appreciate all yalls input.
 
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Dave_97

Well-Known Member
Years ago we had a visiting pastor determined
to prove to me that the Bible tells us exactly who
the AC is. He showed me that Judas was
referred to as “the son of perdition” and I
was respectful but completely unconvinced. The theory in this thread relates to a being
who once lived in history and will be resurrected by the False Prophet. This thread features that
concept but I have not heard that point of view
since my encounter with the visiting pastor
which was about forty years ago.
The identity of the A/C has intrigued us for years, just like the identification of the exact Rapture
date. And therein lies the same reason for caution regarding fascination with specific answers to
these mysteries: they remain mysteries.
True, it’s why on the initial thread I specifically put that I don’t want anyone to name historical figures because the Bible doesn’t give us a specific name, so that means we should be silent on the AC identify as well.

My whole purpose of the thread is to determine what Revelation 17:8 means. Even if for some reason it means the AC is a historical figure, I still don’t think it’s anyone we can know. Same way it’s fun to study about the rapture and what those verses mean, but we shouldn’t set dates.

So I’m okay to discuss what verses around the Antichrist mean without saying names.

I appreciate your concern though.
 

Shannon70

Well-Known Member
Interesting interpretation. I honestly have not heard this one, then again there are various different interpretations of this verse.

A few issues/problems with this interpretation though.

1. I do agree Satan tries to mimic God, and have his own evil trinity. However, it’s important to not Satan and the Beast are not “one” as the Father and the Son are “one”. I know this is not what you meant or believe, but saying the phrase “Beast you saw who once was” refers to Satan means your interpretation of the Beast is somehow Satan. Revelation 17:8 is specific to the Beast (Anti-Christ) not Satan. Although the dragon (Satan) gives the Beast authority and power (Revelation 13:2), they are two complete distinct individuals who are working together against God.

2. Assuming this verse referenced Satan as the beast, it still wouldn’t make sense, because Satan doesn’t crawl out of the bottomless pit then emerges in the tribulation. The chronology will be off. Satan although restrained in his power, is feeling roaming as we speak and will keep doing so leading up to the tribulation. However, he will be bound and thrown into the bottomless pit at the END of the tribulation (Revelation 20). He will stay bound in the bottomless pit until the millennium is over, then get released, and thrown into the lake of fire.

According to Revelation 17:8, it looks like the beast is currently in the bottomless pit, but gets out to conquer during the tribulation, and then thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the tribulation.
Satan is not bound yet. He is free to roam til God say its time to be bound.
 

Shannon70

Well-Known Member
Scientist these days tries to play God. They are already trying to splice anmials. And they are already trying to re create the big bang theory, the large haldron collider. I have wondered if that the large haldron collider the bottomless pit Revelation is referring to. I have read somewhere that those scientist are waiting for something or someone to appear out of this LHC.
 

Hidden

Well-Known Member
There are things we can't know the full details of at this point, like the Mystery Babylon and the identity of the AC and the FP. But speculating pondering on these things is our favorite past time as watchers lol so here goes my two cents:

I lean towards Gary Stearman's belief that Daniel 11 traces that lineage of the AC. I also think this particular chapter supplied the information on the so-called 400 years or so of silence between the Old and the New Testaments. Daniel 9:26 says that the AC will be come from the same people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, so he is likely going to be Roman, coming from the ancestral line of the Seleucids down to the Flavian dynasty as Gary has posited. But as the OP has noted, he seems to be someone that existed prior to when John wrote Revelation and is coming up out of the abyss in the end times.

As for the theory that he is going to be a Nephilim and even Nimrod brought back to life, sorry but that's way too much speculation and doesn't seem to be supported biblically. What's clear is that the AC comes from the seven, meaning from the seven empires that existed concurrent to Israel.
 
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katt

Well-Known Member
There are things we can't know the full details of at this point, like the Mystery Babylon and the ide huntity of the AC and the FP. But speculating pondering on these things is our favorite past time as watchers lol so here goes my two cents:

I lean towards Gary Stearman's belief that Daniel 11 traces that lineage of the AC. I also think this particular chapter supplied the information on the so-called 400 years or so of silence between the Old and the New Testaments. Daniel 9:26 says that the AC will be come from the same people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, so he is likely going to be Roman, coming from the ancestral line of the Seleucids down to the Flavian dynasty as Gary has posited. But as the OP has noted, he seems to be someone that existed prior to when John wrote Revelation and is coming up out of the abyss in the end times.

As for the theory that he is going to be a Nephilim and even Nimrod brought back to life, sorry but that's way too much speculation and doesn't seem to be supported biblically. What's clear is that the AC comes from the seven, meaning from the seven empires that existed concurrent to Israel.
I listen to Gary Starman as well...I don't believe anyone dead is coming back to life..but the AC being Nephelium is biblical..


Genesis 3:15, KJV: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God tells Satan right there that the woman's offspring will fight against his offspring..the Nephelium are the offspring of the angels that left their place and are now held in chains..

Moses said they came before and after the flood..there were Nephelium in Canaan when The Children Of Israel got there..Moses killed Og who was a Nephelium.. Goliath was a Nephelium..

Scientists have been playing with genetics for years..the angels that fought with Satan have been helping them...

Daniel 2:43 says:

King James Bible
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Who are the they in this verse.. it's not the Nations because they are mankind..so who mixes their seed with mankind? That would be the fallen angels that are not chained in the abyss..

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if The AC turns out to be Nephelium..
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I listen to Gary Starman as well...I don't believe anyone dead is coming back to life..but the AC being Nephelium is biblical..


Genesis 3:15, KJV: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God tells Satan right there that the woman's offspring will fight against his offspring..the Nephelium are the offspring of the angels that left their place and are now held in chains..

Moses said they came before and after the flood..there were Nephelium in Canaan when The Children Of Israel got there..Moses killed Og who was a Nephelium.. Goliath was a Nephelium..

Scientists have been playing with genetics for years..the angels that fought with Satan have been helping them...

Daniel 2:43 says:

King James Bible
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Who are the they in this verse.. it's not the Nations because they are mankind..so who mixes their seed with mankind? That would be the fallen angels that are not chained in the abyss..

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if The AC turns out to be Nephelium..

Dr. Fruchtenbaum thinks that like everything else that Satan copies and counterfeits that is done by God that Satan will also try to do the same with the Virgin birth. The seed of Satan is thought to be by Fruchtenbaum in that particular verse to be Satan's actual "son" so to speak. He suggested that the mother of said "son" might be a Roman woman. I thought that was interesting and perhaps quite possible. Maybe there is some woman out there who gave birth to Satan's seed?? :idunno

The other verses do show from Genesis that the fallen angels did mingle and have sexual relations with the daughters of men as they found them fair and attractive.

There's a ton of stuff we don't know and lots of speculation on some things. Trying to figure some things out some of these now is not going to happen. That's why as another posted said they are called "mysteries". They are interesting ponder for sure.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
So there was a verse in the book of revelation that really got me thinking yesterday night. The verse is from Revelation 17:8 describing something about the Beast (Anti-Christ). I will put the verse below in 3 different translations and ask my question afterwards.

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

““The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“The beast you saw was once alive but isn’t now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭NLT‬‬ (I put NLT for more of a easy translation on what that verse I think means when I typically read it).


Here is my question, the way I am reading this when John is being told to write what he is seeing back in his time. He is told the Beast once was (used to be alive), and he is currently not (he is dead in John’s current time), but will become alive in the future (during the tribulation). The fact that he will reappear will be the reason people are amazed according to the ending of the verse.

Note: Please don’t try to name anyone as the Anti-Christ.

I am just simply reading this verse literally and this is the conclusion I am coming to. Am I interpreting this correct? Is revelation saying the Beast is a historical figure that will come back to life? (Again please don’t try name anyone I am simply asking).

Another reason I’m interpreting it that way is because the Bible has used that word “was” to point to figure who use to be alive. In John 8:58 Jesus used that word “was” to convey the same meaning to the Pharisees. Jesus told the Pharisees “Before Abraham was, I AM” (obviously Abraham is no Antichrist lol had to point that out, but I give the example to help with interpreting). So Jesus is basically says before Abraham was (before Abraham was alive) He was already there (I AM).

Anyways what are y’all’s thoughts about Revelation 17:8?
It's possible the angel is speaking about John's time, but I think that since the angel's revelation to John is about a future time period--the seven years of tribulation--that it might be better to interpret those time words (was, is not, shall) from the time of the tribulation.
 

Reason & Hope

Well-Known Member
This is what I typically always leaned on. The logic behind this train of though is that the beast is fatally wounded, goes to the abyss temporarily and comes back to life, thus the world is amazed. However, an issue I’m running into is this.

If the beast experiences a physical death, why does he temporarily go to the abyss (bottomless pit)? The “abyss” to my understanding and that of scripture is that it’s the were evil spirits are bound not unregenerate man who have died. This would only imply the AntiChrist is not a man, atleast not fully a man, which opens another can of worms.

The fact that scripture mentions a few times that the beast ascends from the bottomless pit is something I have never been able understand.
I saw something at one point suggesting that he may be a nephilim because of the abyss part. However, Jack Kelley thinks not: https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/is-the-anti-christ-one-of-the-nephilim/
 

katt

Well-Known Member
and interesting thought perhaps his name is Damion? ..... still that would mean satan would have to father a child in every generation to make sure of having a son ready, yes/no???
Not really..he's had his pick in every generation..but I don't think he really had to worry about it until he saw the Jews starting to go back to Israel back in the 1800's..it was just a trickle at best..it took The Holocaust to make them go back in droves...Satan really shot himself in the foot there..it may be that he finally sees that just having a pick wasn't good enough and he throws caution to the wind..after all he knows what happens to him anyway..so he may think..why not?

But that's just speculation on my part.. the they in Daniel..they have been playing with our genetics for centuries..one has to wonder why..at first it was to stop the messiah from coming..he came anyway..so why continue? This time they're being smarter about it.. they're having mankind do it for them..still the question is why?

Maybe to create thier own seed to implant in some human..

This too is only speculation.. except..the they in Daniel do mix their seed with mankind..and we are very close to the trib..and if we are as close as it seems..that seed is walking around just waiting for his father to contact him..if he hasn't already..

Jesus said as in the days of Noah..there was much more going on in those days than Marrying and giving in marriage..I definitely don't want to be here to see the results of DNA manipulation..

Our scientists have gone way to far as it is.. they've mixed human DNA with animals..just to see what would happen.. they've opened doors they should have left alone.. it's pure evil..

I will now get down off my soapbox..
 
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