Question about the Anti-Christ

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
So there was a verse in the book of revelation that really got me thinking yesterday night. The verse is from Revelation 17:8 describing something about the Beast (Anti-Christ). I will put the verse below in 3 different translations and ask my question afterwards.

“The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

““The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“The beast you saw was once alive but isn’t now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:8‬ ‭NLT‬‬ (I put NLT for more of a easy translation on what that verse I think means when I typically read it).


Here is my question, the way I am reading this when John is being told to write what he is seeing back in his time. He is told the Beast once was (used to be alive), and he is currently not (he is dead in John’s current time), but will become alive in the future (during the tribulation). The fact that he will reappear will be the reason people are amazed according to the ending of the verse.

Note: Please don’t try to name anyone as the Anti-Christ.

I am just simply reading this verse literally and this is the conclusion I am coming to. Am I interpreting this correct? Is revelation saying the Beast is a historical figure that will come back to life? (Again please don’t try name anyone I am simply asking).

Another reason I’m interpreting it that way is because the Bible has used that word “was” to point to figure who use to be alive. In John 8:58 Jesus used that word “was” to convey the same meaning to the Pharisees. Jesus told the Pharisees “Before Abraham was, I AM” (obviously Abraham is no Antichrist lol had to point that out, but I give the example to help with interpreting). So Jesus is basically says before Abraham was (before Abraham was alive) He was already there (I AM).

Anyways what are y’all’s thoughts about Revelation 17:8?
 

Wally

Do You Believe ?
Once was, a serpent who walked in the garden with man.

Now is not, relegated to the spiritual realm accusing and interfering with man, via self and demonic spiritual activity.

Is yet to come, inhabits antichrist - physically present in a body.

That is my understanding based on Scripture. It is a false triune of satan, which does not even compare with the triune fellowship of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
Once was, a serpent who walked in the garden with man.

Now is not, relegated to the spiritual realm accusing and interfering with man, via self and demonic spiritual activity.

Is yet to come, inhabits antichrist - physically present in a body.

That is my understanding based on Scripture. It is a false triune of satan, which does not even compare with the triune fellowship of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Interesting interpretation. I honestly have not heard this one, then again there are various different interpretations of this verse.

A few issues/problems with this interpretation though.

1. I do agree Satan tries to mimic God, and have his own evil trinity. However, it’s important to not Satan and the Beast are not “one” as the Father and the Son are “one”. I know this is not what you meant or believe, but saying the phrase “Beast you saw who once was” refers to Satan means your interpretation of the Beast is somehow Satan. Revelation 17:8 is specific to the Beast (Anti-Christ) not Satan. Although the dragon (Satan) gives the Beast authority and power (Revelation 13:2), they are two complete distinct individuals who are working together against God.

2. Assuming this verse referenced Satan as the beast, it still wouldn’t make sense, because Satan doesn’t crawl out of the bottomless pit then emerges in the tribulation. The chronology will be off. Satan although restrained in his power, is feeling roaming as we speak and will keep doing so leading up to the tribulation. However, he will be bound and thrown into the bottomless pit at the END of the tribulation (Revelation 20). He will stay bound in the bottomless pit until the millennium is over, then get released, and thrown into the lake of fire.

According to Revelation 17:8, it looks like the beast is currently in the bottomless pit, but gets out to conquer during the tribulation, and then thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the tribulation.
 

Wally

Do You Believe ?
Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The serpent of old is the serpent in the garden in dwelled by satan. There was a physical presence which ended at some point.


Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

satan is a spiritual being. he never is - in the flesh - he works in the spiritual realm. Now is not.
he is very powerful and was even able to work through Peter's mouth as well as influence Judas. but he is a spirit


1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Revelation 13:1-3 New King James Version

The Beast from the Sea

13 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

The dragon - satan, gives spiritual power and authority to the beast. satan again walks on the earth being the very power of the beast. Is yet to come.

Don't over engineer this. satan is an angel, a spritual creature who operates in another reality. the snake-creature, the beast- a man are physical things inhabited by the power of satan.
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The serpent of old is the serpent in the garden in dwelled by satan. There was a physical presence which ended at some point.


Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

satan is a spiritual being. he never is - in the flesh - he works in the spiritual realm. Now is not.
he is very powerful and was even able to work through Peter's mouth as well as influence Judas. but he is a spirit


1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Revelation 13:1-3 New King James Version

The Beast from the Sea

13 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

The dragon - satan, gives spiritual power and authority to the beast. satan again walks on the earth being the very power of the beast. Is yet to come.

Don't over engineer this. satan is an angel, a spritual creature who operates in another reality. the snake-creature, the beast- a man are physical things inhabited by the power of satan.
Appreciate the response, I still can’t connect this when I am reading Scripture on its literal sense.

I agree Satan is the serpent of Old as we see in Genesis. However, you still can’t overlook the fact that scripture points to the Beast coming out of the bottomless pit to conquer during the tribulation. Satan is not mentioned to be currently bound in the bottomless pit. That happens after the tribulation.

According to scripture this is how Satan is currently operating in our world.

“god of this world” - 2 Corinthians 6:15, which simply means Satan controls the philosophy of our world. You can see this in our education, science, evolution, and even media etc.

“ruler of this world” - John 12:31
which means he rules the word systems behind the scenes. Evil governments, elites, etc.

“prince of the power of the air” - Ephesians 2:2. According to Paul simply means controls unbelievers. Those who are not born again are under the influence of Stan’s lies and temptations.

When you read Revelation 17:8, it is crystal clear the Beast ascends from the bottomless pit to conquer. However, if you are saying the Beast and the Satan are the same, then there is a contradiction because Satan is bound in the bottomless pit at the end of the tribulation, not before it. Also I’m not trying to engineer anything, please, I simply saw a contradiction on your interpretation, we can agree to disagree on this small matter.

The Beast is given authority and power by Satan, there is a clear distinction.

This actually brings up another interesting question I have about the Antichrist. Some teachers say the AntiChrist is in dwelt by the Satan, others mention he is empowered and not necessarily in dwelt (as scripture never actually mentions the indwelling compared to how it mentions Satan “entering” Judas.). I can understand why some people believe Satan will In dwell the Beast (I use to as all) because his powers will literally come from Satan, although scripture doesn’t say he will In dwell Satan, just that he will be empowered by him. So I’m in the middle on that one as well.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
This is from the commentary by Thomas Constable (PlanoBibleChapel.org).

17:8 The beast, as we have already seen, is Antichrist (13:1-3). Here the angel referred to his resuscitation. Ladd held that we should identify the beast itself with its heads, but this leads to a confusion of the figures. Evidently this resuscitation (or resurrection) will happen near the middle of the Tribulation. The beast comes out of the abyss, which is the home of Satan (11:7) and the home of his demons (9:1-2, 11), when he miraculously revives. This verse suggests that when the beast revives, Satan will at that time give him supernatural powers. In other words, this "resurrection" will coincide with the filling of the beast with the dragon's presence and power. But finally Jesus Christ will punish the Antichrist and the false prophet and Satan forever (19:20; 20:2-3). The beast's "resurrection" will greatly impress earth-dwellers (cf. 13:3), and the whole earth will follow the beast. They will conclude that he is a divine savior, but actually he will be a demonic slaughterer. He will deceive everyone but the elect (i.e., believers; cf. 13:8; Matt. 24:24; Mark 13:22).

Challenging verse, I also looked it up on EnduringWord.com, another on line commentary that I use and the author there completely skipped the verse!
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
This is from the commentary by Thomas Constable (PlanoBibleChapel.org).

17:8 The beast, as we have already seen, is Antichrist (13:1-3). Here the angel referred to his resuscitation. Ladd held that we should identify the beast itself with its heads, but this leads to a confusion of the figures. Evidently this resuscitation (or resurrection) will happen near the middle of the Tribulation. The beast comes out of the abyss, which is the home of Satan (11:7) and the home of his demons (9:1-2, 11), when he miraculously revives. This verse suggests that when the beast revives, Satan will at that time give him supernatural powers. In other words, this "resurrection" will coincide with the filling of the beast with the dragon's presence and power. But finally Jesus Christ will punish the Antichrist and the false prophet and Satan forever (19:20; 20:2-3). The beast's "resurrection" will greatly impress earth-dwellers (cf. 13:3), and the whole earth will follow the beast. They will conclude that he is a divine savior, but actually he will be a demonic slaughterer. He will deceive everyone but the elect (i.e., believers; cf. 13:8; Matt. 24:24; Mark 13:22).

Challenging verse, I also looked it up on EnduringWord.com, another on line commentary that I use and the author there completely skipped the verse!

Interesting, do you think the mortal wound the Antichrist will receive means he will die and then somehow come back (Revelation 13:3)?

You think that’s what Revelation 17:8 is referencing?
““The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss”

Basically the beast was alive, died from the mortal wound and came back?

It might be the case. Although only issue I had with this was that Revelation 13:3 says the beast received the fatal wound (didn’t say it killed him, only that it was miraculously healed).

Honestly your your take is more believable. If I go with the idea that the Anti Christ is some historical figure who is someone brought back to life in the tribulation seems unbelievable. I always leaned more that the AntiChrist received a fatal wound that almost killed him (or it actually does), then he somehow is able to come back to life, thus the world is amazed.

But I feel like I’m still confused, who comes out of the bottomless pit according to Revelation 17:8? It can’t be Satan as his not currently there according to the New Testament. The Bible says the Beast (a specific individual).
 

SarahRose

Well-Known Member
Basically the beast was alive, died from the mortal wound and came back?

It might be the case. Although only issue I had with this was that Revelation 13:3 says the beast received the fatal wound (didn’t say it killed him, only that it was miraculously healed).
This makes sense to me (right now anyway).

Further on in verse 8, people "wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come."

Whether or not he actually dies, I'm not sure. Coming up from the abyss may be a clue that he does.

Either way, the beast's (AC's) revival from a "fatal wound" amazes a bunch of people (13:3), which in turn makes them worship the dragon (Satan) (13:4) who gave his authority to the beast.
 

Wally

Do You Believe ?
As satan can not resurrect, the beast would be an animated corpse once receiving a fatal wound, if this is literal and not a figurative statement.

Of course the origins of the beast were explained in Rosemary's Baby. ...rolls eyes....
But then Disney could not let a story line fade without its influence - hence Little Demon. And it's not a Doge product we're talking about.
 
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Chris

Administrator
Staff member
We have 14,500+ articles on the main site. There is a strong likelihood that your questions are answered on the main site. Please feel free to do a search there for information. This is what I found real quick:

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/revelation-chapters-17-18/

Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. (Rev. 17:7-8)

The inhabitants of the Earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life from the creation of the world will be astonished to see the Beast because he was once, now is not, and yet will come. The Greek word translated astonished here means to marvel at, or hold in admiration.

Some believe that the phrase once was, now is not, and yet will come means that the anti-Christ will be a figure from the past, someone who had lived before John’s time, was dead when John wrote the book of Revelation, but will come back at the End of the Age as the anti-Christ. The most popular candidates are Antiochus Epiphanes who died in 163BC, the Roman Emperor Nero who died in 68 AD, and Judas Iscariot who died in 32AD. Antiochus Epiphanes and Nero are two of the most specific historical models of the anti-Christ, and Jesus called Judas the son of perdition (John 17:12) the same title by which Paul referred to the anti-Christ (2 Thes. 2:3)
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/death-resurrection-beast-antichrist/

From Dr. Ice:

Furthermore, “the word referring to the beast’s return to life is similar to the word used of Christ’s return to life. Jesus is the One ‘who was dead and has come to life [ezesen]’ (2:8). And the beast will be the one ‘who had the wound of the sword and has come to life [ezesen]’ (13:14)” [22]

In support of this understanding is the fact that Revelation 17:8, 11 refers to the Beast which ” was and is not.” “This may well refer to the wounding of the Antichrist in 13:3, 12, and 14. The words ‘is not’ refer to the physical death of the beast, followed by his ascent from the abyss (17:8), which refers to his return to life (13:14) and is the same as his reappearance as the eighth king of 17:11,” notes Harris. “The twofold reference to the beast going to destruction or perdition (17:8, 11) is the same as his eternal confinement in the lake of fire (19:20). The description of the beast in Revelation 17 likewise contains many similarities to the sword-wounded beast who was healed.” [23] William Lee concludes: “The language is quite similar, the astonishment of the world’s inhabitants identical, and the threefold emphasis on this spectacular feature is repeated in both contexts (13:3, 12, 14; 17:8 bis, 11).” [24]


Some more stuff:

https://www.raptureforums.com/?s=revelation+17:8
 

Wally

Do You Believe ?
The [spirit] that empowers the beast comes from hell - ascends. The beast himself is man-flesh. Revelation is a vision so we need to be careful
Because it talks about both tangibles real flesh substance, and spiritual unseen things that never the less exist.

Sometimes I may post opinion based on what I'm reading in Scripture. So continue to explore His Word first and cover it with prayer.
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
In support of this understanding is the fact that Revelation 17:8, 11 refers to the Beast which ” was and is not.” “This may well refer to the wounding of the Antichrist in 13:3, 12, and 14. The words ‘is not’ refer to the physical death of the beast, followed by his ascent from the abyss (17:8), which refers to his return to life (13:14)

This is what I typically always leaned on. The logic behind this train of though is that the beast is fatally wounded, goes to the abyss temporarily and comes back to life, thus the world is amazed. However, an issue I’m running into is this.

If the beast experiences a physical death, why does he temporarily go to the abyss (bottomless pit)? The “abyss” to my understanding and that of scripture is that it’s the were evil spirits are bound not unregenerate man who have died. This would only imply the AntiChrist is not a man, atleast not fully a man, which opens another can of worms.

The fact that scripture mentions a few times that the beast ascends from the bottomless pit is something I have never been able understand.
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
Some believe that the phrase once was, now is not, and yet will come means that the anti-Christ will be a figure from the past, someone who had lived before John’s time, was dead when John wrote the book of Revelation, but will come back at the End of the Age as the anti-Christ
I read an article by Chuck Missler who mentioned this as well. I had barely heard of this view, but personally it just seems too hard for me to fully believe or I comprehend.

I will certainly read more articles in the forum concerning this, thanks for the link. I won’t get my head into this much, but it’s very interesting.
 

Wally

Do You Believe ?
Perhaps its simply the beast is 2 parts: A spiritual part that rises from the abyss, and a man part that rises from the sea.

And when we look at the man-flesh beast we also see a single leader as well as a national system often equated with the revived roman empire.

If you want to read Revelations only literally, you'll miss alot. IMO.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
This is what I typically always leaned on. The logic behind this train of though is that the beast is fatally wounded, goes to the abyss temporarily and comes back to life, thus the world is amazed. However, an issue I’m running into is this.

If the beast experiences a physical death, why does he temporarily go to the abyss (bottomless pit)? The “abyss” to my understanding and that of scripture is that it’s the were evil spirits are bound not unregenerate man who have died. This would only imply the AntiChrist is not a man, atleast not fully a man, which opens another can of worms.

The fact that scripture mentions a few times that the beast ascends from the bottomless pit is something I have never been able understand.

Dr. Fruchtenbaum goes into this in one of his teachings in that the AC is raised from the dead because he will be the "first fruits" resurrection of the unjust or something along that line. He noted how Satan tried to copy what God has done in the past. For example:

Holy Trinity = God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit.

Unholy Trinity = Satan, AC, and FP.

The MoB is the counterfeit version of the "Seal of God" for those who belong to God. Those who take the MoB belong to Satan.

The AC being raised as the "first fruits" resurrection of the unjust was as Fruchtenbaum stated a twist on the "first fruits" resurrection of those that belong to God. I may not be remembering this right as it has been years since I read it. But maybe someone else can repeat what he said about that better than I can. I'll see if I can find this later tonight. It's either in his "Footsteps of the Messiah" book or it is in an article on his website under the "Come and See" section and articles.

I hope that helps some. :scratch
 

cheeky200386

Well-Known Member
Interesting, do you think the mortal wound the Antichrist will receive means he will die and then somehow come back (Revelation 13:3)?

You think that’s what Revelation 17:8 is referencing?
““The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss”

Basically the beast was alive, died from the mortal wound and came back?

It might be the case. Although only issue I had with this was that Revelation 13:3 says the beast received the fatal wound (didn’t say it killed him, only that it was miraculously healed).

Honestly your your take is more believable. If I go with the idea that the Anti Christ is some historical figure who is someone brought back to life in the tribulation seems unbelievable. I always leaned more that the AntiChrist received a fatal wound that almost killed him (or it actually does), then he somehow is able to come back to life, thus the world is amazed.

But I feel like I’m still confused, who comes out of the bottomless pit according to Revelation 17:8? It can’t be Satan as his not currently there according to the New Testament. The Bible says the Beast (a specific individual).
What if it's another fallen angel that inhabits the beast? He is given authority and power from Satan but is another fallen angel. I also wonder if it could be Judas.
 

mphsmom

Well-Known Member
I thought it meant that the devil was in the world, in the Millenium Kingdom he is not, that after the MK he will come out of the bottomless pit, and those in the MK at the time that don't believe Jesus is God (even though they have been with him in the MK) will wonder about him.
 
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