Question about Christ's letters to the seven churches in Revelation

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I have Chuck Missler's teachings on the 7 letters, which I have in book form on my kindle and Koinonia House put out a series of Chuck's old sermons on the subjuct--it's in a playlist of their YouTubes. K House has a channel and Chuck's teachings are on there including the 7 letters. I think he had an explanation of it, but I can't recall off the top of my head right now.
 

Wally

Choose Your Words Carefully...
Another out of the box idea,

During the conversion from steam to diesel many railroads built their fleets with cab units such as RF-16, F7A, and FA1 amongst other models.
Along with the cab units came cab-less booster units. Although these units could be run in any combination in either direction,
A prefect lash up was A-B-B-A. this created a harmonious unit with a cab facing each direction and the boosters in the middle.

The only point here is that perhaps the "Chiasm" is for esoteric - an arranging of words for balance or a poetic device.
Even in the disorder of the church, God brings order.

I suspect any explination for the change will be a supposition and not an answer.

There does seem to be a progression in the issues with the churches, and some, including myself see in each church both a representation of the core church growing and functioning through time, and as a diagnosis of the ails that continue to fester and plague the church body.

The Jezebel of the 4th church does have elements of Catholicism: Mary worship, eating the "sacred" wafer, adding works. That would mark a major turn in church growth.

Maybe the first 3 churches were doing a better job of listening and the Victory reminder was more of a given,

whereas the last 4 churches needed a sterner rebuke and reminder of what they were throwing away with a final: Listen up! - If the shoe fits then this means YOU!
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
I have Chuck Missler's teachings on the 7 letters, which I have in book form on my kindle and Koinonia House put out a series of Chuck's old sermons on the subjuct--it's in a playlist of their YouTubes. K House has a channel and Chuck's teachings are on there including the 7 letters. I think he had an explanation of it, but I can't recall off the top of my head right now.

That would be interesting to hear. So far I'm not finding anything in Arnold's book.....might be I'm just not seeing it yet.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
That would be interesting to hear. So far I'm not finding anything in Arnold's book.....might be I'm just not seeing it yet.
I will tackle this in a few days, I just wrote a book over in Jan's thread on Russia, China and the Globalists in the OWG/Economics forum where she asked me to outline how I see the OWG/China and Russia in the end times as well as how they fit into Daniel 11. But I will take time and research it. If I come up with nothing, I'll say so.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
I will tackle this in a few days, I just wrote a book over in Jan's thread on Russia, China and the Globalists in the OWG/Economics forum where she asked me to outline how I see the OWG/China and Russia in the end times as well as how they fit into Daniel 11. But I will take time and research it. If I come up with nothing, I'll say so.

Yeah that's an informative thread there! I'm still digesting Sure appreciate the time and reasearch you put in.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you mught find. :nod
 

Fab

Member
The seven “churches” in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation are Jewish assemblies in Asia Minor (Turkey) (Rev 1:4, 6, 22:16), not Christian churches. The language associated with them is wholly Jewish; no Pauline or Church language is present. Everything the Lord said to them was associated with Israel and concerned God’s judgment and how to obtain salvation during those seven years. The conditions on earth are dire. These groups of the remnant are trying to survive without taking the Mark of the Beast. Chapter 2:10 prepares the Smyrna Church with the foretelling of a horrible near prophecy—-Some of them will be tortured to death for not giving over to the Beast system! The angel is told to encourage them to resist, for they only have to endure for 10 days before God gives them the merciful escape of death!

The message to EVERY ONE of the seven churches is overcoming (νικάω) in the Day of the Lord to be given Millennial Jewish Blessings (Revelation 2.7, 11, 17, 26, 3.5, 12, 21, 21.7), something you and I as members of the Church the Body of Christ will not have to worry about as we’ll be with the Lord during those seven years and have already been given all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. We are never told to overcome something as a condition. Christians would quit being so confused by this terminology—-all throughout Hebrews as well because it is written to the same Jewish audience—-if they understood the purpose of these books: exhortations and warnings to provoke fear of falling short of entering their Millennial Rest (Heb 4:1) They must resist family and friends, who will undoubtedly pressure them in the first half of the seven years to join in the false temple worship and sacrifices (read Hebrews with THAT in mind and see how much sense the book makes!) and, in the second half, resist the Antichrist and refuse the Mark of the Beast. That understanding clears up confusion Christians of this age have had with passages like Heb 6:1-6, 10:26-27, 36, 12:15-17 and many other such like verses speaking of enduring and overcoming until the end to obtain “salvation” or “rest” in the Hebrew Epistles (Hebrews-Revelation). Just as all the doctrines of the Church of this age are found in Paul’s epistles, after the Rapture the Jewish remnant will find their primary doctrine in these Hebrew epistles
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Just as all the doctrines of the Church of this age are found in Paul’s epistles, after the Rapture the Jewish remnant will find their primary doctrine in these Hebrew epistles

:hmmm


May I ask, what does it mean when the Philadelphia church is told that they will be protected from the testing of the whole world then?


Rev 3:10

“Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world."
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
That would be interesting to hear. So far I'm not finding anything in Arnold's book.....might be I'm just not seeing it yet.
I'm a bit tired-- so I'm going to be a little more brief than usual with a wonderful question that the OP posed
WHY did Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost REVERSE the order of the ENDING of His letters in His letter to the final four churches of Revelation? i.e, "He that has an ear, etc" FOLLOWS His promises to the overcomers in His letters to the final four (4) churches; whereas in His letters to the first three (3) churches (Ephesus, Smyrna, and Pergamos) the salutation, "He that has an ear, etc." PRECEDES His promises to those churches? As mentioned above, there is NOTHING minor or inconseqential in God's Word. Every jot, tittle, comma, and word in Scripture has been placed there for a REASON by the Holy Ghost (mankind, in his various translations over the centuries, has greatly messed that up, but that's a whole separate post). I am just very curious WHY the Holy Ghost REVERSED the order to the ending of Christ's letters to the seven churches between the third and fourth church? Any insights or revelation (no pun intended) would be much appreciated!

Atticus you are a noble Berean and I think you'd enjoy Chuck Missler's works. He is with the Lord now, but his work carries on thru his Koinonia House and the efforts of his friend and partner in the work, Ron Matsen.

I knew it was in Chuck's work somewhere-- I knew I'd come across it. First I re read his book on the 7 churches "The Seven Letters To The Seven Churches" published in 2017 --it's short-- 153 pages and I have a copy on my kindle.

He mentioned it several times there, ALWAYS pointing to the fact that the final 4 churches are also given mentions of His return. The Rapture, The Tribulation and His eventual Second Coming are alluded to in the final 4 churches. He said this was significant but never elaborated on it.

He also pointed out that the churches Jesus spoke to, in the order given form a prophetic outline of Church History which makes NO sense if the churches were in any other order. In his video sermons- Church In The End Times part 1&2 (part one is an hour long, you can do a search for it, Koinonia House and the name of the video) he says the same thing but emphasizes this connection.

It has to do with that historical outline. He still didn't give enough detail as to why this order was flipped for the last 4. But he does point out that it is significant that this was done for the last 4 which are also the only ones given a word about His return. So the inference is that these final 4 form a picture of the final 4 stages of church history, but they are also all present when He returns.

Looking at the first 3 even though we can all benefit by listening to these letters, but we aren't part of those 3 foundational church eras.

Except Smyrna. That martyr church, the suffering saints in persecution continue around the world in every era. BUT the historical church that Jesus spoke to endured 10 horrific waves of persecution after the apostolic age drew to a close. Each church slightly overlaps the next. But the first wave of serious persecution under Nero saw the martyrdom of Paul and Peter. John outlasted Domition--it was under THAT wave by Domition that he was exiled to Patmos as a 90 plus year old man who received the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are discussing. The martyrs continue but that age that formed the early church was done by the time of Constantine.

By the time of Constantine, the Pergamos era church was married to the State in a horrible way that brought all kinds of error in, that would form the first of the final 4. From that marriage of conveniance many of the priests and clergy of Ancient Roman "gods" were imported into the new State church as Christianity became the state religion. Again this was a formative church, not a final form.

Thyatira. The church of the Middle Ages. The Catholic and Orthodox plus other ancient legacy churches such as the Marionites were formed out of Pergamos error and it solidified into these churches we still have today. The pre Reformation churches. Full of error, usurping Christ's position, using allegory, denying the Bible to the common people. Killing adversaries. Antisemitic and full of Replacement Theology.

Sardis was the Reformation Era church who stopped short of recovering the full teaching of prophecy and who clung to Replacement Theology. They had a name for life, but they were dead inside. Like the Thyatira church they allegorized everything so prophecy became meaningless except whatever the church authority of the day wanted it to say.

Philadelphia was the Missionary Church era where Prophecy and the role of Israel began to be restored to the church. Instead of Replacement theology and it's necessity -- turning all prophecy into allegory so prophecy for Israel is allegorized to fit some fantasy where the church receives the blessings and Israel keeps the curses we had the restoration of a literal grammatical historical understanding of the whole Bible and it fit back together and made sense. Missionaries were moved by the Spirit to evangelize. Churches who teach and proclaim these truths may be harder to find, but they still exist and will until the coming of our Lord to take us in the Rapture out of the time of testing and trial to come on the whole earth.

Laodicea is the era we live in now. Where the will of the people is in charge, a church characterized by health, wealth and becoming seeker friendly rather than pleasing to Christ.

That church will continue after the Rapture and help form the Harlot religious system as it fuses together with other false religions. Chrislam and these multifaith efforts by the liberal arm of the church today was just a first whiff of the coming stench.

This next is my best effort at answering your question further.

Each of these churches has a personal application.

That is obvious by the repeating of this important closing phrase: "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

But the first 3 were given the overcomer promise as a post script to all future listeners with ears to hear. It applied to them and for all future believers who heard God's conviction.

But it comes after the finishing phrase ""Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches." The promises to the first 3 are like a post script or PS after the letter concludes. The command to listen is to whoever has ears and it commands the listener to hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES plural. All the messages are relevant to all believers.

The last 4 are given promises BEFORE that final phrase and again they apply to all listeners with ears to hear, but the promise is inside the message to the people of these 4 remaining church types or in the case of Laodicea to the few who still hear the knocking of Christ at the door.

the promise is inside the letter, before the ending phrase to believers that reside inside the final 4 churches. Instead of a gentle PS at the end it's a trumpet blast. ARE YOU LISTENING we might say. It's like Jesus is turning up the volume for the final 4.

The final 4 need to sit up and pay attention. By the time of the Laodicean era it's a rare Christian who is still listening to the Lord and waiting His return.

He's at the door. The next thing after Laodicea is the Rapture epitomized by the AFTER THIS phrase given twice in Chapter 4:v 1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

To my ears this sounds like a trumpet blast, ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME after each promise. Pay Attention it says. And by the time of Laodicea Jesus is being ignored by the crowds who claim to follow Him. Except for the few who still pay attention. Ironic that the closer we get, the less attention is paid to our Lord.

Anyway that's what Chuck pointed out but this is my construction on it.

Atticus you sound like you'd enjoy Chuck, I hope you do look up more by him. He generally points out interesting things like that but then he sometimes smiles and says, now you do your research. So irritating and yet so encouraging.

It's thru his writing that I realized the connection between the 7 churches here in Revelation, and the 7 epistles to the churches written by Paul (some were personal and some were in several parts) and the 7 kingdom parables by Jesus. He gets into it in the 2 part teaching videos above but I HIGHLY recommend going thru his playlist on Revelation a Commentary. He goes thru the whole book, and mines some gems.

I'm tired, it's bed. It was a rough day. I'll check in on this in a few days.
 
Last edited:

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
I'm a bit tired-- so I'm going to be a little more brief than usual with a wonderful question that the OP posed


Atticus you are a noble Berean and I think you'd enjoy Chuck Missler's works. He is with the Lord now, but his work carries on thru his Koinonia House and the efforts of his friend and partner in the work, Ron Matsen.

I knew it was in Chuck's work somewhere-- I knew I'd come across it. First I re read his book on the 7 churches "The Seven Letters To The Seven Churches" published in 2017 --it's short-- 153 pages and I have a copy on my kindle.

He mentioned it several times there, ALWAYS pointing to the fact that the final 4 churches are also given mentions of His return. The Rapture, The Tribulation and His eventual Second Coming are alluded to in the final 4 churches. He said this was significant but never elaborated on it.

He also pointed out that the churches Jesus spoke to, in the order given form a prophetic outline of Church History which makes NO sense if the churches were in any other order. In his video sermons- Church In The End Times part 1&2 (part one is an hour long, you can do a search for it, Koinonia House and the name of the video) he says the same thing but emphasizes this connection.

It has to do with that historical outline. He still didn't give enough detail as to why this order was flipped for the last 4. But he does point out that it is significant that this was done for the last 4 which are also the only ones given a word about His return. So the inference is that these final 4 form a picture of the final 4 stages of church history, but they are also all present when He returns.

Looking at the first 3 even though we can all benefit by listening to these letters, but we aren't part of those 3 foundational church eras.

Except Smyrna. That martyr church, the suffering saints in persecution continue around the world in every era. BUT the historical church that Jesus spoke to endured 10 horrific waves of persecution after the apostolic age drew to a close. Each church slightly overlaps the next. But the first wave of serious persecution under Nero saw the martyrdom of Paul and Peter. John outlasted Domition--it was under THAT wave by Domition that he was exiled to Patmos as a 90 plus year old man who received the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are discussing. The martyrs continue but that age that formed the early church was done by the time of Constantine.

By the time of Constantine, the Pergamos era church was married to the State in a horrible way that brought all kinds of error in, that would form the first of the final 4. From that marriage of conveniance many of the priests and clergy of Ancient Roman "gods" were imported into the new State church as Christianity became the state religion. Again this was a formative church, not a final form.

Thyatira. The church of the Middle Ages. The Catholic and Orthodox plus other ancient legacy churches such as the Marionites were formed out of Pergamos error and it solidified into these churches we still have today. The pre Reformation churches. Full of error, usurping Christ's position, using allegory, denying the Bible to the common people. Killing adversaries. Antisemitic and full of Replacement Theology.

Sardis was the Reformation Era church who stopped short of recovering the full teaching of prophecy and who clung to Replacement Theology. They had a name for life, but they were dead inside. Like the Thyatira church they allegorized everything so prophecy became meaningless except whatever the church authority of the day wanted it to say.

Philadelphia was the Missionary Church era where Prophecy and the role of Israel began to be restored to the church. Instead of Replacement theology and it's necessity -- turning all prophecy into allegory so prophecy for Israel is allegorized to fit some fantasy where the church receives the blessings and Israel keeps the curses we had the restoration of a literal grammatical historical understanding of the whole Bible and it fit back together and made sense. Missionaries were moved by the Spirit to evangelize as this smaller weaker cousin of the Thyatira and Sardis churches went out to fulfill the great commission. Churches who teach and proclaim these truths may be harder to find, but they still exist and will until the coming of our Lord to take us in the Rapture out of the time of testing and trial to come on the whole earth.

Laodicea is the era we live in now. Where the will of the people is in charge, a church characterized by health, wealth and becoming seeker friendly rather than pleasing to Christ.

That church will continue after the Rapture and help form the Harlot religious system as it fuses together with other false religions. Chrislam and these multifaith efforts by the liberal arm of the church today was just a first whiff of the coming stench.

This next is my best effort at answering your question further.

Each of these churches has a personal application.

That is obvious by the repeating of this important closing phrase: "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

But the first 3 were given the overcomer promise as a post script to all future listeners with ears to hear. It applied to them and for all future believers who heard God's conviction.

But it comes after the finishing phrase ""Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches." The promises to the first 3 are like a post script or PS after the letter concludes. The command to listen is to whoever has ears and it commands the listener to hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES plural. All the messages are relevant to all believers.

The last 4 are given promises BEFORE that final phrase and again they apply to all listeners with ears to hear, but the promise is inside the message to the people of these 4 remaining church types or in the case of Laodicea to the few who still hear the knocking of Christ at the door.

the promise is inside the letter, before the ending phrase to believers that reside inside the final 4 churches. Instead of a gentle PS at the end it's a trumpet blast. ARE YOU LISTENING we might say. It's like Jesus is turning up the volume for the final 4.

The final 4 need to sit up and pay attention. By the time of the Laodicean era it's a rare Christian who is still listening to the Lord and waiting His return.

He's at the door. The next thing after Laodicea is the Rapture epitomized by the AFTER THIS phrase given twice in Chapter 4:v 1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

To my ears this sounds like a trumpet blast, ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME after each promise. Pay Attention it says. And by the time of Laodicea Jesus is being ignored by the crowds who claim to follow Him. Except for the few who still pay attention. Ironic that the closer we get, the less attention is paid to our Lord.

Anyway that's what Chuck pointed out but this is my construction on it.

Atticus you sound like you'd enjoy Chuck, I hope you do look up more by him. He generally points out interesting things like that but then he sometimes smiles and says, now you do your research. So irritating and yet so encouraging.

It's thru his writing that I realized the connection between the 7 churches here in Revelation, and the 7 epistles to the churches written by Paul (some were personal and some were in several parts) and the 7 kingdom parables by Jesus. He gets into it in the 2 part teaching videos above but I HIGHLY recommend going thru his playlist on Revelation a Commentary. He goes thru the whole book, and mines some gems.

I'm tired, it's bed. It was a rough day. I'll check in on this in a few days.
Amen.
Yeah I went and rewatched his series on the 7 churches the other day because of this thread . The whole Revelation series is great. I like to hear others thoughts on these subject matters and Chuck is one of the best IMHO.
Sure miss his rapid , intrinsic style of teaching.
He does such a wonderful job. You can feel his love for the Lord.
 

Purchased With Blood

Well-Known Member
I watched the playlist also and though nothing felt definitive regarding the reversal it was very informative. I agree with athenasius that it likely has something to do with the promise of His return being mentioned in the final four letters and with the voice like a trumpet in Revelation 4:1 being right after the final, "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." There is an increasing emphasis on His return as time passes, which is logical.

Something I noticed that might be helpful is that the first three kingdom parables are about seeds, which could symbolize the growth of the earliest three eras of the Church. Included with the seventh and last kingdom parable is Jesus saying, "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just" in Matthew 13:49. This is in reference to the parable of the good fish in the net being kept but the bad fish are cast away. This sure sounds like the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats to me. I know that judgment does not apply to the bride, but as with the letters in Revelation, there could be a reference to history unfolding in the parables of Matthew 13. As Chuck used to always say, that is only a conjecture.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I watched the playlist also and though nothing felt definitive regarding the reversal it was very informative. I agree with athenasius that it likely has something to do with the promise of His return being mentioned in the final four letters and with the voice like a trumpet in Revelation 4:1 being right after the final, "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." There is an increasing emphasis on His return as time passes, which is logical.

Something I noticed that might be helpful is that the first three kingdom parables are about seeds, which could symbolize the growth of the earliest three eras of the Church. Included with the seventh and last kingdom parable is Jesus saying, "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just" in Matthew 13:49. This is in reference to the parable of the good fish in the net being kept but the bad fish are cast away. This sure sounds like the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats to me. I know that judgment does not apply to the bride, but as with the letters in Revelation, there could be a reference to history unfolding in the parables of Matthew 13. As Chuck used to always say, that is only a conjecture.
Love these thoughts

I never saw the connection between the first 3 all involving seeds-- the planting stages. Love it.

And that final one does sound like the Sheep and Goats.
 

Fab

Member
:hmmm


May I ask, what does it mean when the Philadelphia church is told that they will be protected from the testing of the whole world then?


Rev 3:10

“Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world."
God will protect a remnant of Jews during the Tribulation. That’s what Rev 2:17 and 3:10 refer to. Read Dan 9:27, Matt 24:15-22, 2 Thess 2:3-4, and Rev 12:6,14. All four passages refer to the same mid-Trib event. Isaiah 26:20 and the story of Elijah in 1 Kings 17 being fed by the widow for 3 1/2 years (you have to read Jn 5:17 and Lk 4:25 to know the duration) are pictures of the same!
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Yes, but the letters addressed in the beginning of Revelation are to the Churches, not to Israel. As I understand it, yes, God will protect a remnant of Jews in the Tribulation. However the Church is a whole new people separate from the World and Israel, comprised of both Jew and Gentile:

For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.

Ephesians 2:14-16


Paul says of believers, the Church:

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 1 Thess 5:9-10

It looks like the first mention of Israel in Revelation is in chapter 7, where the 144,000 are then marked with the Seal of God, out of the 12 tribes of Israel.

In Revelation 1 Jesus tells John the mystery of the 7 stars:

This is the meaning of the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Rev 1:20

So, there's seven churches in Revelation 1 and 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7.
 

Fab

Member
Yes, but the letters addressed in the beginning of Revelation are to the Churches, not to Israel. As I understand it, yes, God will protect a remnant of Jews in the Tribulation. However the Church is a whole new people separate from the World and Israel, comprised of both Jew and Gentile:

For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.

Ephesians 2:14-16


Paul says of believers, the Church:

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 1 Thess 5:9-10

It looks like the first mention of Israel in Revelation is in chapter 7, where the 144,000 are then marked with the Seal of God, out of the 12 tribes of Israel.

In Revelation 1 Jesus tells John the mystery of the 7 stars:

This is the meaning of the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. Rev 1:20

So, there's seven churches in Revelation 1 and 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7.
The word “church” simply means assembly. Each time the word is used we must be careful to distinguish what church. You cannot assume that the word always means the church, which is His body, the church of this dispensation. The Bible calls the Jewish group led by Moses, the “church” in the wilderness.

A careful examination of the Scriptures reveals that when Jesus and the Twelve used the word ἐκκλησία it referred to a group of Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah. When Paul used the term, however, it meant the Body of Christ, i.e., equality of Jews and Gentiles in Christ.

The word ἐκκλησία is usually translated “church.” But it is also translated as “assembly” or “congregation.” These were the common translations in the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Hebrew word most often translated into ἐκκλησία is קָהָל which is usually rendered as “assembly” or “congregation.”

A good example of this sense is found in Acts 19.32, 39, 41. When Paul went to Ephesus, he aroused the anger of the silversmiths and other tradesmen whose were in the idol business. One of the silversmiths named Demetrius stirred up a riot against Paul. Each of the verses below contains the Greek word ἐκκλησία. Nowhere do we find the word translated as “church.” In each case the word is translated “assembly.”

  • “So then, some were shouting one thing and some another, for the assembly was in confusion, and the majority did not know for what cause they had come together” (v. 32).
  • “But if you want anything beyond this, it shall be settled in the lawful assembly” (v. 39).
  • “And after saying this he dismissed the assembly” (v. 41).
From the context, we can see that in verses 32 and 41, “crowd” or “mob” would serve as a better translation of ἐκκλησία. In verse 39, “court” would be a better translation. Therefore, while ἐκκλησία is usually translated “church” in the New Testament, it need not be. The basic sense of ἐκκλησία is an assembled group.

The book of Revelation is totally Jewish. Those small assemblies may have existed already when John wrote the letter, but for sure they will exist again by Trib time.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
The word “church” simply means assembly. Each time the word is used we must be careful to distinguish what church. You cannot assume that the word always means the church, which is His body, the church of this dispensation. The Bible calls the Jewish group led by Moses, the “church” in the wilderness.

A careful examination of the Scriptures reveals that when Jesus and the Twelve used the word ἐκκλησία it referred to a group of Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah. When Paul used the term, however, it meant the Body of Christ, i.e., equality of Jews and Gentiles in Christ.

The word ἐκκλησία is usually translated “church.” But it is also translated as “assembly” or “congregation.” These were the common translations in the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Hebrew word most often translated into ἐκκλησία is קָהָל which is usually rendered as “assembly” or “congregation.”

A good example of this sense is found in Acts 19.32, 39, 41. When Paul went to Ephesus, he aroused the anger of the silversmiths and other tradesmen whose were in the idol business. One of the silversmiths named Demetrius stirred up a riot against Paul. Each of the verses below contains the Greek word ἐκκλησία. Nowhere do we find the word translated as “church.” In each case the word is translated “assembly.”

  • “So then, some were shouting one thing and some another, for the assembly was in confusion, and the majority did not know for what cause they had come together” (v. 32).
  • “But if you want anything beyond this, it shall be settled in the lawful assembly” (v. 39).
  • “And after saying this he dismissed the assembly” (v. 41).
From the context, we can see that in verses 32 and 41, “crowd” or “mob” would serve as a better translation of ἐκκλησία. In verse 39, “court” would be a better translation. Therefore, while ἐκκλησία is usually translated “church” in the New Testament, it need not be. The basic sense of ἐκκλησία is an assembled group.

The book of Revelation is totally Jewish. Those small assemblies may have existed already when John wrote the letter, but for sure they will exist again by Trib time.
By AD 96 or so when Revelation was given by Jesus to John the Apostle the churches were losing their Jewish only flavour and had been for DECADES.

Just look at Paul's epistles to the various churches he wrote to in Asia minor which is in Turkey today and very close to the churches mentioned in Revelation.

And he wrote THOSE before his execution in 67.

One of them is the VERY FIRST CHURCH CHRIST MENTIONS in Revelation. Ephesians. No "may have" existed about it. They existed a full 36 years before Revelation was given.

Ephesians written by Paul around AD 60 - 61 was around the same time as Colossians and Philemon. In Ephesians Paul is dealing (see chapter 2:11-22) with helping the Jews and Gentiles in the church get along. It is OBVIOUS that the silversmith Demetrius in Acts 19: 23-41 wasn't upset over losing Jewish customers for his silver works of Artemis of the Ephesians, they wouldn't buy those in the first place. Paul had trouble with Demetrius BECAUSE Paul was converting a lot of former idol worshipping Ephesian GENTILES to Christ.

In chapter 4 there is another hint that Paul is trying to deal with new Gentile converts in v 17 "17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking." because the people he is addressing here are GENTILES.

That is a full 36 YEARS before Revelation was given by Jesus to John.

Romans for example was written in 57 or so-- 3 years before Ephesians and about a decade before Paul died, with a large chunk devoted to dealing with the anti semitic ideas that were already infiltrating the church at Rome. He was on his 3rd missionary journey and was living and working among the Corinthians at that time.

Whether it's in Rome, Greece or on the Anatolian plain, the early churches were quickly becoming dominated by the Gentile believers arriving in huge quantities.

You cannot argue from the Bible that the early churches mentioned in 96 AD were mostly Jewish enclaves of Christian believers. They were not as the early church fathers show in various writings as well as the examples above.

While the term Ecclessia is used in both NT and OT both, it doesn't follow that only Jewish believers are being described in the New Testament epistles and Revelation. History and the writings of Paul suggest otherwise.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
To go on, looking at Colossians written at the same time approximately as Ephesians so AD 60 to 61 a full 35-36 years before Revelation (AD 96) and directed to that church but ALSO TO LAODICEA.

NIV
Chapter 2:1 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally.
Chapter 4: 16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

Now that is because Colossae was right next to Laodicea. Another of the churches Jesus mentions.

So now looking closer we see this from Paul under Divine inspiration writing to the Colossians (and to the Laodiceans) in chapter 1 he also says this:

25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Paul makes it known that the Gentiles even in this early period are part of the local assembly at Colossae and Laodicea

and in chapter 4 he says this

10 My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

11 Jesus, who is called Justus, also sends greetings. These are the only Jews among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me.

12 Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured. 13 I vouch for him that he is working hard for you and for those at Laodicea and Hierapolis.

Here we find that Paul has only a few Jews among his coworkers for the gospel, the 3 mentioned by name. Epaphras is not a Jew by inference and who IS from Colossae is mentioned as working hard for the Colossians and Laodiceans thru his prayers from a distance (with Paul). (Galatians written to the various newly formed churches in Galatia-- a province of Asia now part of Turkey informs us that Titus is not a Jew, and that epistle is aimed at preventing the Judaizers from bringing Gentile converts under the Law, requiring them to be circumcised.)

So we can see from the first and the last church Jesus mentions that the gentile flavour is certainly not a minority and these churches are filled with more than just Jewish believers. They are beginning to have conflicts-- clashing world views. The Jews are steeped in the Bible, still struggling with the Law, and some Jewish superstitions which Paul alludes to in one of his epistles (I can't remember which one) while the Gentiles are trying to overcome a world view diametrically opposed, brought up on paganism and superstition.
 
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Fab

Member
By AD 96 or so when Revelation was given by Jesus to John the Apostle the churches were losing their Jewish only flavour and had been for DECADES.

Just look at Paul's epistles to the various churches he wrote to in Asia minor which is in Turkey today and very close to the churches mentioned in Revelation.

And he wrote THOSE before his execution in 67.

One of them is the VERY FIRST CHURCH CHRIST MENTIONS in Revelation. Ephesians. No "may have" existed about it. They existed a full 36 years before Revelation was given.

Ephesians written by Paul around AD 60 - 61 was around the same time as Colossians and Philemon. In Ephesians Paul is dealing (see chapter 2:11-22) with helping the Jews and Gentiles in the church get along. It is OBVIOUS that the silversmith Demetrius in Acts 19: 23-41 wasn't upset over losing Jewish customers for his silver works of Artemis of the Ephesians, they wouldn't buy those in the first place. Paul had trouble with Demetrius BECAUSE Paul was converting a lot of former idol worshipping Ephesian GENTILES to Christ.

In chapter 4 there is another hint that Paul is trying to deal with new Gentile converts in v 17 "17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking." because the people he is addressing here are GENTILES.

That is a full 36 YEARS before Revelation was given by Jesus to John.

Romans for example was written in 57 or so-- 3 years before Ephesians and about a decade before Paul died, with a large chunk devoted to dealing with the anti semitic ideas that were already infiltrating the church at Rome. He was on his 3rd missionary journey and was living and working among the Corinthians at that time.

Whether it's in Rome, Greece or on the Anatolian plain, the early churches were quickly becoming dominated by the Gentile believers arriving in huge quantities.

You cannot argue from the Bible that the early churches mentioned in 96 AD were mostly Jewish enclaves of Christian believers. They were not as the early church fathers show in various writings as well as the examples above.

While the term Ecclessia is used in both NT and OT both, it doesn't follow that only Jewish believers are being described in the New Testament epistles and Revelation. History and the writings of Paul suggest otherwise.
I see and appreciate your point. We will probably just need to agree to disagree on this one! First, I think The Revelation was written earlier (there is evidence on both sides), but even if I'm wrong, it doesn't effect the basic premise. John wrote a futuristic, apocalyptic book. There were obviously scattered Jews ever since the stoning of Stephen. Hebrews--Revelation is written to them but in the surreal context of a tribulation and kingdom they all (still--even after Peter and the others accepted Paul's "hard to be understood" revelations) still thought they would see come to fulfillment in their lifetimes. It is hard for us to wrap our brains around the complicated layers of the transitional time of the 1st century AD. But how marvelous God provided for His completed Word to take into account the equipping of every Age ---even 2000 years in advance!! God would not leave the believing Jews, yet to suffer through the Tribulation, without a portion of His Word written to and for only them any more than He would leave you and me, members of the Body of Christ, without our special "mail" in the form of Paul's epistles. I'm okay with much less of the Bible having to be directly to me than perhaps are most Christians.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I suspected that you consider the dating of Revelation an earlier date. Most early dates land around 63 or 64AD. However that goes against the earliest of the church fathers who attest to the fact that John was imprisoned on Patmos under the reign of Domitian-- and he ruled from 81-96 AD. John's exile to Patmos ended in 96 when Domitian died so the book of Revelation dates in that period.

Usually Preterists advance that argument for an early date because they feel the Tribulation period in Revelation was completed under Nero. That conflicts with the actual text on a number of levels because firstly it didn't all happen in that first century or ever. So if you are a literalist and you don't allegorize the daylights out of the prophecies, you can't be a preterist.

And secondly and perhaps even more important to our discussion, the church at Ephesus shows a progression from their state when Paul wrote them to the time Jesus is addressing them. They aren't quite the same. They took Paul's warnings in Ephesians to heart and they were VERY careful to avoid and root out heresy but they lost their first love. Jesus refers to this as having happened. But if you take the earlier date for Revelation, then Jesus is commending them for something that Paul warned them of only 2-3 years earlier in AD 60-61. And remember Paul only started that church in AD 52 on his third missionary journey. Jesus comments make more sense given the decades after Ephesians was written. Not 11 years after they started.

However what I find alarming is your desire to separate the Word of God into parts that are written only to Jews and that written to gentile members of the church (body of Christ) it leaves me wondering what your actual views on Scripture are.

Do you agree with 2 Timothy 3: 16-17 that
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

because there is no distinction in Christ between Jew and Gentile-

Romans 10:12 New International Version​

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,​



Revelation is written to all those who are Christ's servants. That is every Christian whether Jew or Gentile.

Rev 1:1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

The letters to the 7 churches apply to
1: each individual church at the time of writing in 96AD

2: each letter specifically says it's also written to the churches plural so ALL the churches. Nowhere does it specify the ratio of Jews to Gentiles as the church is a new man, neither Jew nor Gentile, bond or free etc. All the churches means ALL

3: To all who have ears-- after each letter along with the ALL the churches comment. This again reinforces it is to ALL believers thru the whole of the church age and beyond.

4: It has a final prophetic implication which Chuck Missler and others allude to, which is the fact that given in the order Jesus gives these letters it forms an outline of church history.


My point is that all believers are meant to read the book and benefit. Regardless of whether they are Jews or Gentiles by their first birth. By their second birth they are born into Christ as part of His body and are a new creation in Him.

As Chuck Missler says-- Revelation is the only book in the Bible that opens with the promise "read me, I'm special" and promises a special blessing to those who read it and take it to heart.

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


and that blessing of vs 3 is not just for Christ's servants, but all who read and hear and take Revelation to heart. I wonder how many have gotten saved by reading Revelation. My guess is there are many.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
The seven “churches” in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation are Jewish assemblies in Asia Minor (Turkey) (Rev 1:4, 6, 22:16), not Christian churches. The language associated with them is wholly Jewish; no Pauline or Church language is present. Everything the Lord said to them was associated with Israel and concerned God’s judgment and how to obtain salvation during those seven years. The conditions on earth are dire. These groups of the remnant are trying to survive without taking the Mark of the Beast. Chapter 2:10 prepares the Smyrna Church with the foretelling of a horrible near prophecy—-Some of them will be tortured to death for not giving over to the Beast system! The angel is told to encourage them to resist, for they only have to endure for 10 days before God gives them the merciful escape of death!

The message to EVERY ONE of the seven churches is overcoming (νικάω) in the Day of the Lord to be given Millennial Jewish Blessings (Revelation 2.7, 11, 17, 26, 3.5, 12, 21, 21.7), something you and I as members of the Church the Body of Christ will not have to worry about as we’ll be with the Lord during those seven years and have already been given all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. We are never told to overcome something as a condition. Christians would quit being so confused by this terminology—-all throughout Hebrews as well because it is written to the same Jewish audience—-if they understood the purpose of these books: exhortations and warnings to provoke fear of falling short of entering their Millennial Rest (Heb 4:1) They must resist family and friends, who will undoubtedly pressure them in the first half of the seven years to join in the false temple worship and sacrifices (read Hebrews with THAT in mind and see how much sense the book makes!) and, in the second half, resist the Antichrist and refuse the Mark of the Beast. That understanding clears up confusion Christians of this age have had with passages like Heb 6:1-6, 10:26-27, 36, 12:15-17 and many other such like verses speaking of enduring and overcoming until the end to obtain “salvation” or “rest” in the Hebrew Epistles (Hebrews-Revelation). Just as all the doctrines of the Church of this age are found in Paul’s epistles, after the Rapture the Jewish remnant will find their primary doctrine in these Hebrew epistles
This needs clarification. The view of Fab as outlined here is not biblical.

The term overcomer DEFINITELY applies to the church age believers as 1 John 5:5 clearly shows.

5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

This is the proper understanding of the term overcomer. One who believes that Jesus IS The Son of God!

It applies to all believers in Christ in the church age, the Tribulation and the Millennium. It is NOT limited to the Jewish believers only but to all, Jew and Gentile alike.
 
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