Question about Christ's letters to the seven churches in Revelation

[WiseVirgin]

I skimmed through all replies and did not see a definitive answer. I did see a couple of references to Chuck Missler, but I don't think I saw what I'm going to present, which is as definitive an answer as I've ever heard. Chuck Missler was a gifted bible teacher. The series he did called, "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" will change your life. I have watched the whole series many times and paid $400 several years ago to buy 4 DVD sets, with the textbooks, for my kids and other relatives. I'm providing the link to the entire series on You Tube, but for the answer to the question about the seven churches, go to: "Chuck Missler - Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" and choose "Hour 22." Spend an hour on this. You will have your answer and hopefully be full of joy. Chuck Missler's teachings are priceless. Biblical all the way through.

This was my first time to insert a link, in my paragraph above. If it doesn't work out, copy and paste this: https://***********/playlist?list=PLRj8AJuzeJRwHdeFua3pzmwPB_JCS0mIq and choose "Hour 22."

 

[daygo]

Seen them and have the book.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

There isn't some big mystery to be solved in regards to the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
Seriously.
Just sayin'.

 

[WiseVirgin]

There isn't some big mystery to be solved in regards to the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
Seriously.
Just sayin'.

If you can answer the OP in a simple way, why withhold what you know?

 

[Fab]

Firstly, I understand and agree that TODAY, during the Dispensation of Grace there is certainly no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ. We know that God is temporarily not dealing with the nation Israel and is only dealing with individuals on the basis of grace alone.

But after the Rapture that changes and the works/endurance based Gospel of the Kingdom is taught again during the Tribulation. Matt 24:14. My only difference with most of the responders to this thread is that I believe Hebrews through Revelation to be primarily future books for Jews living up to (if there is some gap between the Rapture and the start of the seven-year clock) and through the Tribulation.

Certainly, taken singularly and apart from the context of the entire book, 1 John 5:5 can be "applied" to any Christian, IF you water down the intended meaning of "overcome." For the believers reading Hebrews through Revelation, "overcoming" (i.e. resisting the Anti-Christ"s world system, complete with its forbidden mark, etc.) is a matter of eternal salvation---not the case when you and I "overcome" in some esoteric sense the "things of this world."

Go a few verses down from I John 5:5 to 5:14-18 and you hit a major problem in literal application to the church today. I can not ask anything of God and necessarily receive the petitions I desire of Him (vs 14-15). I cannot ask, on behalf of a brother, forgiveness for his sin and have it granted (vs 16). In fact, in the age of Grace all my brother's sins have been forgiven--why would I pray a prayer like that? But during the Tribulation things are going to work a little differently. The Jews must resist the false christ and endure, waiting for their future atonement (possible, of course, because of the historical, timeless,efficacious work of Christ on the Cross). The "sin unto death" in vs 16 is succumbing to Antichrist and taking the mark. (Rev 14:9-11) Verse 18 is very specifically speaking of that sin. But believers today, trying desperately to make it fit themselves and knowing they are not sinless, change the clear meaning to say "Oh, it just means we will desire not to sin" or "desire to resist sin." Nope, it clearly says what it says and is a stern warning to Tribulation saints to not let that wicked one touch him. There are other sins he can sin that are not unto death (vs 17). A brother can apparently ask forgiveness on another's behalf for those. But succumbing to idolatry (Antichrist worship)? Forget it! Don't even try asking forgiveness for that one! (Vs 16b, 21)

Peter, already a believer in Christ, of course, understood the "overcoming" aspect of his salvation and knew his atonement was yet future (1Peter 1:9). He spoke several times of a future salvation/grace for himself and his nation. (Acts 3:19-20, 15:11, 1 Peter 1:13).

The audience to whom the books of Hebrews-Revelation are written is clearly identified. While there can be general personal application in any book of Scripture, that application had better come only after an understanding of to whom and for what purpose the doctrine of the book is written, or the division and confusion Christians have in trying to personally apply these books on everything from attitudes toward money, to doing works for justification, to eternal security, to sinlessness, and more will, sadly, continue.

 

[athenasius]

I skimmed through all replies and did not see a definitive answer. I did see a couple of references to Chuck Missler, but I don't think I saw what I'm going to present, which is as definitive an answer as I've ever heard. Chuck Missler was a gifted bible teacher. The series he did called, "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" will change your life. I have watched the whole series many times and paid $400 several years ago to buy 4 DVD sets, with the textbooks, for my kids and other relatives. I'm providing the link to the entire series on You Tube, but for the answer to the question about the seven churches, go to: "Chuck Missler - Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" and choose "Hour 22." Spend an hour on this. You will have your answer and hopefully be full of joy. Chuck Missler's teachings are priceless. Biblical all the way through.

This was my first time to insert a link, in my paragraph above. If it doesn't work out, copy and paste this: https://***********/playlist?list=PLRj8AJuzeJRwHdeFua3pzmwPB_JCS0mIq and choose "Hour 22."

If you can answer the OP in a simple way, why withhold what you know?

I think because we did answer the OP simply in previous posts.

to restate the original question

But your response does not address my specific question.... which is: WHY was the order of the ENDING to Christ's letters to the final four (4) churches (Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea) REVERSED from the ENDING of His letters to the first THREE (3) churches; i.e., Christ's PROMISES to the Overcomers in the final four (4) churches comes BEFORE the phrase, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches." Whereas in Christ's letters to the first THREE (3) churches (Ephesus, Smyrna, and Pergamos) the phrase, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" reverses position in the letter, and comes BEFORE His Promises to the Overcomers. Perhaps you didn't understand my question?

and the simplest answers are here

Could it have something to do with the order of the formed churches (I've wondered if that order also reflects the timeline of the church age as well) and perhaps their culture (idol worship?) and how much persecution endured?

We know that those who overcome are those who place faith in Jesus.

and here

During the first in-depth revelation Bible study I listened to, the pastor talked about the systems of the last four churches being fully alive today. Could that have something to do with the reversal?

The pastor talked about the churches being literal churches that existed during John’s lifetime, and also representing the church throughout history (thyatira symbolizing the Catholic Church’s dominance through 590-1517 ad for example). And then symbolizing believers individually on another level.

Maybe the reversal is a clue to the systems of those four churches still being largely present when the rapture occurs or when the tribulation begins?

Both of which outline Chuck Missler's position in the teaching you alluded to as well as his books and other teaching videos.

I have Chuck Missler's teachings on the 7 letters, which I have in book form on my kindle and Koinonia House put out a series of Chuck's old sermons on the subjuct--it's in a playlist of their YouTubes. K House has a channel and Chuck's teachings are on there including the 7 letters. I think he had an explanation of it, but I can't recall off the top of my head right now.

which I allude to here above and in depth below here:

I'm a bit tired-- so I'm going to be a little more brief than usual with a wonderful question that the OP posed


Atticus you are a noble Berean and I think you'd enjoy Chuck Missler's works. He is with the Lord now, but his work carries on thru his Koinonia House and the efforts of his friend and partner in the work, Ron Matsen.

I knew it was in Chuck's work somewhere-- I knew I'd come across it. First I re read his book on the 7 churches "The Seven Letters To The Seven Churches" published in 2017 --it's short-- 153 pages and I have a copy on my kindle.

He mentioned it several times there, ALWAYS pointing to the fact that the final 4 churches are also given mentions of His return. The Rapture, The Tribulation and His eventual Second Coming are alluded to in the final 4 churches. He said this was significant but never elaborated on it.

He also pointed out that the churches Jesus spoke to, in the order given form a prophetic outline of Church History which makes NO sense if the churches were in any other order. In his video sermons- Church In The End Times part 1&2 (part one is an hour long, you can do a search for it, Koinonia House and the name of the video) he says the same thing but emphasizes this connection.

It has to do with that historical outline. He still didn't give enough detail as to why this order was flipped for the last 4. But he does point out that it is significant that this was done for the last 4 which are also the only ones given a word about His return. So the inference is that these final 4 form a picture of the final 4 stages of church history, but they are also all present when He returns.

Looking at the first 3 even though we can all benefit by listening to these letters, but we aren't part of those 3 foundational church eras.

Except Smyrna. That martyr church, the suffering saints in persecution continue around the world in every era. BUT the historical church that Jesus spoke to endured 10 horrific waves of persecution after the apostolic age drew to a close. Each church slightly overlaps the next. But the first wave of serious persecution under Nero saw the martyrdom of Paul and Peter. John outlasted Domition--it was under THAT wave by Domition that he was exiled to Patmos as a 90 plus year old man who received the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are discussing. The martyrs continue but that age that formed the early church was done by the time of Constantine.

By the time of Constantine, the Pergamos era church was married to the State in a horrible way that brought all kinds of error in, that would form the first of the final 4. From that marriage of conveniance many of the priests and clergy of Ancient Roman "gods" were imported into the new State church as Christianity became the state religion. Again this was a formative church, not a final form.

Thyatira. The church of the Middle Ages. The Catholic and Orthodox plus other ancient legacy churches such as the Marionites were formed out of Pergamos error and it solidified into these churches we still have today. The pre Reformation churches. Full of error, usurping Christ's position, using allegory, denying the Bible to the common people. Killing adversaries. Antisemitic and full of Replacement Theology.

Sardis was the Reformation Era church who stopped short of recovering the full teaching of prophecy and who clung to Replacement Theology. They had a name for life, but they were dead inside. Like the Thyatira church they allegorized everything so prophecy became meaningless except whatever the church authority of the day wanted it to say.

Philadelphia was the Missionary Church era where Prophecy and the role of Israel began to be restored to the church. Instead of Replacement theology and it's necessity -- turning all prophecy into allegory so prophecy for Israel is allegorized to fit some fantasy where the church receives the blessings and Israel keeps the curses we had the restoration of a literal grammatical historical understanding of the whole Bible and it fit back together and made sense. Missionaries were moved by the Spirit to evangelize. Churches who teach and proclaim these truths may be harder to find, but they still exist and will until the coming of our Lord to take us in the Rapture out of the time of testing and trial to come on the whole earth.

Laodicea is the era we live in now. Where the will of the people is in charge, a church characterized by health, wealth and becoming seeker friendly rather than pleasing to Christ.

That church will continue after the Rapture and help form the Harlot religious system as it fuses together with other false religions. Chrislam and these multifaith efforts by the liberal arm of the church today was just a first whiff of the coming stench.

This next is my best effort at answering your question further.

Each of these churches has a personal application.

That is obvious by the repeating of this important closing phrase: "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

But the first 3 were given the overcomer promise as a post script to all future listeners with ears to hear. It applied to them and for all future believers who heard God's conviction.

But it comes after the finishing phrase ""Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches." The promises to the first 3 are like a post script or PS after the letter concludes. The command to listen is to whoever has ears and it commands the listener to hear what the Spirit says to the CHURCHES plural. All the messages are relevant to all believers.

The last 4 are given promises BEFORE that final phrase and again they apply to all listeners with ears to hear, but the promise is inside the message to the people of these 4 remaining church types or in the case of Laodicea to the few who still hear the knocking of Christ at the door.

the promise is inside the letter, before the ending phrase to believers that reside inside the final 4 churches. Instead of a gentle PS at the end it's a trumpet blast. ARE YOU LISTENING we might say. It's like Jesus is turning up the volume for the final 4.

The final 4 need to sit up and pay attention. By the time of the Laodicean era it's a rare Christian who is still listening to the Lord and waiting His return.

He's at the door. The next thing after Laodicea is the Rapture epitomized by the AFTER THIS phrase given twice in Chapter 4:v 1 "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

To my ears this sounds like a trumpet blast, ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME after each promise. Pay Attention it says. And by the time of Laodicea Jesus is being ignored by the crowds who claim to follow Him. Except for the few who still pay attention. Ironic that the closer we get, the less attention is paid to our Lord.

Anyway that's what Chuck pointed out but this is my construction on it.

Atticus you sound like you'd enjoy Chuck, I hope you do look up more by him. He generally points out interesting things like that but then he sometimes smiles and says, now you do your research. So irritating and yet so encouraging.

It's thru his writing that I realized the connection between the 7 churches here in Revelation, and the 7 epistles to the churches written by Paul (some were personal and some were in several parts) and the 7 kingdom parables by Jesus. He gets into it in the 2 part teaching videos above but I HIGHLY recommend going thru his playlist on Revelation a Commentary. He goes thru the whole book, and mines some gems.

I'm tired, it's bed. It was a rough day. I'll check in on this in a few days.

where I summarize the entire teaching of hour 22 that you brought up. I think that was where the frustration expressed by @ItIsFinished! came in. He saw that we had answered, using the very source you used-- Chuck Missler. I couldn't agree more with you on Missler in relation to this question.

I don't always answer in depth if I see someone else covered the same arguments I'd use, which may be what @ItIsFinished! is saying but I'll leave him to answer for himself.

At various points we went off on tangents covering things like the dating of Revelation, the ethnic makeup of the original churches which may have obscured the original q & a however the OP did enlarge his question to include that ethnic makeup (Jew vs Gentile) which was being discussed as well.

It's a great thread, but it's a golden example of why it's important to look at the previous responses before assuming that people hadn't answered.

In this case your answer was actually duplicated in all the above responses across the first 2 pages. And your answer chimed in with the rest of what we were saying and that is a good addition to the thread. I understand, I do it too, when I just don't have time to go thru all the previous answers. I miss stuff. But I usually phrase it like "I hope I'm not duplicating other responses, I just didn't have time to go thru the previous pages." And often I did duplicate when I have time to really read thru.

 

[athenasius]

Firstly, I understand and agree that TODAY, during the Dispensation of Grace there is certainly no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ. We know that God is temporarily not dealing with the nation Israel and is only dealing with individuals on the basis of grace alone.

But after the Rapture that changes and the works/endurance based Gospel of the Kingdom is taught again during the Tribulation. Matt 24:14. My only difference with most of the responders to this thread is that I believe Hebrews through Revelation to be primarily future books for Jews living up to (if there is some gap between the Rapture and the start of the seven-year clock) and through the Tribulation.

Certainly, taken singularly and apart from the context of the entire book, 1 John 5:5 can be "applied" to any Christian, IF you water down the intended meaning of "overcome." For the believers reading Hebrews through Revelation, "overcoming" (i.e. resisting the Anti-Christ"s world system, complete with its forbidden mark, etc.) is a matter of eternal salvation---not the case when you and I "overcome" in some esoteric sense the "things of this world."

Go a few verses down from I John 5:5 to 5:14-18 and you hit a major problem in literal application to the church today. I can not ask anything of God and necessarily receive the petitions I desire of Him (vs 14-15). I cannot ask, on behalf of a brother, forgiveness for his sin and have it granted (vs 16). In fact, in the age of Grace all my brother's sins have been forgiven--why would I pray a prayer like that? But during the Tribulation things are going to work a little differently. The Jews must resist the false christ and endure, waiting for their future atonement (possible, of course, because of the historical, timeless,efficacious work of Christ on the Cross). The "sin unto death" in vs 16 is succumbing to Antichrist and taking the mark. (Rev 14:9-11) Verse 18 is very specifically speaking of that sin. But believers today, trying desperately to make it fit themselves and knowing they are not sinless, change the clear meaning to say "Oh, it just means we will desire not to sin" or "desire to resist sin." Nope, it clearly says what it says and is a stern warning to Tribulation saints to not let that wicked one touch him. There are other sins he can sin that are not unto death (vs 17). A brother can apparently ask forgiveness on another's behalf for those. But succumbing to idolatry (Antichrist worship)? Forget it! Don't even try asking forgiveness for that one! (Vs 16b, 21)

Peter, already a believer in Christ, of course, understood the "overcoming" aspect of his salvation and knew his atonement was yet future (1Peter 1:9). He spoke several times of a future salvation/grace for himself and his nation. (Acts 3:19-20, 15:11, 1 Peter 1:13).

The audience to whom the books of Hebrews-Revelation are written is clearly identified. While there can be general personal application in any book of Scripture, that application had better come only after an understanding of to whom and for what purpose the doctrine of the book is written, or the division and confusion Christians have in trying to personally apply these books on everything from attitudes toward money, to doing works for justification, to eternal security, to sinlessness, and more will, sadly, continue.

where I differ if I differ, as I worked thru your answer is that the believers of the Tribulation period are like the believers in the OT period--they live UNDER the Law

But they are justified by FAITH.

Not by the Law.

It isn't like we have now-- once saved always saved. There is the possibility during the post rapture period to turn away from God and take the Mark of the Beast, and knowingly reject salvation.

But they are NOT justified by the Law. I think we agree on that point don't we???

The OT saints justified by looking to God to supply their lack-- looking towards the cross, not fully understanding HOW God would bring about their redemption but understanding that the Law can only convict, it cannot save.

Like them the Trib saints are saved by looking to the Cross of Christ and His complete atonement at the Cross while living under a system that utilizes the Law.

The Law is the tutor to lead us to Christ. It cannot justify anyone. There is only one who could ever fulfill the Law and that is Christ. The purpose of the Law in the OT as well as the Tribulation is to prove that humanity cannot keep the Law and needs God's mercy.

The whole of Romans 8 points out that we are justified by Grace, not the Law. In v 23-25 Paul points out that we are born again, having the firstfruits, the promise, the down payment, the earnest money as it's called in real estate law, as we await the redemption of the body.

Our inner man is reborn, the outer shell is still subject to decay, but one day we like Job (pre Law, post flood believer) 19: 25-27 will see Him in our glorified, redeemed remade bodies.

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

So to bring this round to the Tribulation saints--

They are saved as we are, by grace thru faith in the very Son of God who fulfilled the Law for them, us --and the OT saints before us.

The OT saints looked forward to redemption, being taught by the Law that no one can be justified by the Law. They live under the Law again because the final 7 years and most particularly the final 3-1/2 years are purposed in Daniel 12:7 to break the power of the Holy people that is the Jews, and their reliance on their own works of the Law.

Daniel 12: 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

The purpose of the Tribulation is the Salvation of the Jewish Nation.

an aside for those reading this and wondering. Some gentiles will be saved --Revelation is clear that nations will still exist outside of Israel, as they will be the children of the Gentile believers that God allows by His grace to survive the Trib to repopulate, just as 1/3 of the Jews will survive to repopulate the area promised to Abraham and confirmed in the various land promises given by God to the Jews.

But God's focus is directed back at the salvation of ISRAEL during the Tribulation. They rebuild the Temple, reinstitute the Sabbatarian laws (Jesus makes it quite clear in His pray that it not happen on the Sabbath comment that those are again in place) and essentially are the reconstituted Jews of Israel as they were in the days when that stop watch of Daniels years was paused at the Cross after the 69 weeks. One week left.

The Law is back in full force to prove to the Jews as Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 8 etc that no one is justified under the Law.

I think we agree on that????

 

[Jan51]

They are saved as we are, by grace thru faith in the very Son of God who fulfilled the Law for them, us --and the OT saints before us.

Were they saved by grace in the Old Testament? I know many teach this, but then why is the church age called the age of grace, as compared to the age of Law? I agree all are saved by faith, but I thought grace was special to the church age. I surely may be wrong though.

 

[lightofmylife]

Were they saved by grace in the Old Testament? I know many teach this, but then why is the church age called the age of grace, as compared to the age of Law? I agree all are saved by faith, but I thought grace was special to the church age. I surely may be wrong though.

You are correct it was faith in the promise that God would send a Savior someday. Grace came when went to the cross.

 

[athenasius]

Were they saved by grace in the Old Testament? I know many teach this, but then why is the church age called the age of grace, as compared to the age of Law? I agree all are saved by faith, but I thought grace was special to the church age. I surely may be wrong though.

Saved by Faith, but all salvation is by God's grace.

The church age is the age of grace, because once we are saved, we stay saved while in the other ages we had to remain in that faith in God that He would provide the means for our salvation. But grace is grace, and God's grace is present in every age. Since by the Law, nobody is saved, it has to be by God's grace, and thru Faith in God.

As Job implies in the book of Job -- I know that my Redeemer lives Job 19: v 25-27
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job is aware that his Redeemer lives (present tense during Jobs lifetime back then, will continue to live and at the end he will stand on the Earth, that Job will be "reconstituted" in the resurrection and that this Redeemer is God that he Job will see in his own flesh, with his own eyes long after his death and decay.

Job is the earliest book in the Bible yet Job expresses a very sophisticated view of the Redeemer, God and salvation/resurrection.

Abraham expresses a similar understanding when he obeys God, taking Isaac up to the mountain for sacrificial purposes and when Isaac asks where is the Lamb Abraham expresses the whole plan of redemption God will provide a Lamb my son.

They both predate the giving of the Law. That would come generations later with Moses during the Exodus but these early accounts show that even though they didn't know the name of the Messiah, they knew that somehow their Redeemer lives forever and would provide a lamb to cover their sins.

 

[athenasius]

in the NT we see this expressed by Paul in Galatians 2: 15-16 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

that verse says it all "because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

and Paul goes on to further elaborate that thought at the end of chapter 2 and on into chapter 3 as seen here:

Chapter 2:19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Chapter 3 Paul gets even stronger on this point showing us that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as Righteousness. That is Faith in God and Paul is quoting Genesis 15:6 where Abram as he was, believed God. It is the act of believing God's Word that brings Abram to that Righteousness that pleases God and saves him.

Galatians 3: 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Then further in that chapter:
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

We understand by this that Abraham is a man of faith, redeemed by his faith in God and this predates the Law. In fact this point is very important as outlined in Verse 17 & 18

Paul then explains that nobody who relies on the Law is saved.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Then Paul continues to contrast the law and the promise.

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.


19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.


21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

then he explains the purpose of the law--to show us the impossibility of keeping it. Showing us our absolute dependence on the Grace of God to supply the Messiah, His Lamb in due time.

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And that takes me to Hebrews 11, the Old Testament heroes of Faith

11
1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

That last verse puts it into perspective, all justified by faith in God, but only together with us would they be made perfect.

When Christ took captivity captive he took the prisoners of death --the righteous ones justified by faith from the place known as Abraham's bosom to be with Him. He made them perfect on the cross.

but they like us are saved by faith in God. They believed God and it was imputed or credited to them as Righteousness. They rose up to be with Christ after He rose from the dead.

 

[athenasius]

as for the differences between the OT believers and we who are believers during the Church age, the Age of Grace there are many

Starting with the veil in the Temple-- that separation between God and sinful man. Torn from top to bottom as Christ's death on the cross paid for our sins in full.

Before His death even the ones who loved and served God, trusted in Him, like John the Baptist, Daniel or Elijah they could not enter the Holy of Holies. We can. Because the blood of Christ, covers us completely.

Then as Christ was resurrected as the First Fruits, on First Fruits, we are given the hope and promise of His life, that at His coming we will be like Him. Our resurrected glorified bodies fully redeemed when He returns for us in the Rapture.

The Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the church, and to this day indwells every believer bringing us to a better understanding of God's Word, convicting us of sin, comforting us in our sorrows, giving us wisdom and guidance when we need it. The OT believers had no such assurance. He, the Holy Spirit indwelt only one person at a time, not the whole body of believers thru the whole church age.

God has promised to never leave us nor forsake us. Yet David was in mortal fear of God taking His Holy Spirit from David.

The Age of Grace is an age when we can come to God thru the mediator Christ Jesus as our sinless High Priest, and the precious Lamb who redeemed us by His blood.

We understand the great and precious promises within God's Word with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, something we take for granted, but it was not available to the OT saints.

We are saved once and for all, nothing and no one can snatch us out of His Hand.

After the Rapture people will still be saved by faith in Christ as their Messiah, Redeemer and Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world. But they can lose their salvation status by taking the Mark.

They will live in the last grip of the Law-- which as always points man to God by teaching man about the utter impossibility of keeping the Law. The Temple system will be enforced in Israel as Jesus points out (pray that it is not on the Sabbath) and the Temple will be built and in use in order for the AC to commit the Abomination of Desolation.

But nobody will be saved by keeping the Law. Only as they turn to Christ. Jew and Gentile alike.

Which is the point of Hosea 5:15 which continues in Hosea 6: 1-2 --it needs to be read as one continuous passage

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

The Jews who turn to God, acknowledge their offence (the rejection of the Messiah in 32 AD) will be afflicted in the Trib. The believing remnant will speak these words of Hosea 6: 1& 2

I think the Holy Spirit will still be active in assisting the people who believe in God, but it is not the easy assurance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, leading us into the Word of God, teaching and guiding us from within.

Like the Old Testament believers, they will have a harder time. And there is the reality of losing their salvation if they willingly choose to take the Mark. They can lose it.

Whereas we can't. Once we are saved there is nothing and no one that can snatch us out of His Hand.

 

[Jan51]

as for the differences between the OT believers and we who are believers during the Church age, the Age of Grace there are many

Starting with the veil in the Temple-- that separation between God and sinful man. Torn from top to bottom as Christ's death on the cross paid for our sins in full.

Before His death even the ones who loved and served God, trusted in Him, like John the Baptist, Daniel or Elijah they could not enter the Holy of Holies. We can. Because the blood of Christ, covers us completely.

Then as Christ was resurrected as the First Fruits, on First Fruits, we are given the hope and promise of His life, that at His coming we will be like Him. Our resurrected glorified bodies fully redeemed when He returns for us in the Rapture.

The Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the church, and to this day indwells every believer bringing us to a better understanding of God's Word, convicting us of sin, comforting us in our sorrows, giving us wisdom and guidance when we need it. The OT believers had no such assurance. He, the Holy Spirit indwelt only one person at a time, not the whole body of believers thru the whole church age.

God has promised to never leave us nor forsake us. Yet David was in mortal fear of God taking His Holy Spirit from David.

The Age of Grace is an age when we can come to God thru the mediator Christ Jesus as our sinless High Priest, and the precious Lamb who redeemed us by His blood.

We understand the great and precious promises within God's Word with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, something we take for granted, but it was not available to the OT saints.

We are saved once and for all, nothing and no one can snatch us out of His Hand.

After the Rapture people will still be saved by faith in Christ as their Messiah, Redeemer and Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world. But they can lose their salvation status by taking the Mark.

They will live in the last grip of the Law-- which as always points man to God by teaching man about the utter impossibility of keeping the Law. The Temple system will be enforced in Israel as Jesus points out (pray that it is not on the Sabbath) and the Temple will be built and in use in order for the AC to commit the Abomination of Desolation.

But nobody will be saved by keeping the Law. Only as they turn to Christ. Jew and Gentile alike.

Which is the point of Hosea 5:15 which continues in Hosea 6: 1-2 --it needs to be read as one continuous passage

15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

The Jews who turn to God, acknowledge their offence (the rejection of the Messiah in 32 AD) will be afflicted in the Trib. The believing remnant will speak these words of Hosea 6: 1& 2

I think the Holy Spirit will still be active in assisting the people who believe in God, but it is not the easy assurance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, leading us into the Word of God, teaching and guiding us from within.

Like the Old Testament believers, they will have a harder time. And there is the reality of losing their salvation if they willingly choose to take the Mark. They can lose it.

Whereas we can't. Once we are saved there is nothing and no one that can snatch us out of His Hand.

Yes, clearly all are saved by faith--I had already agreed with you on that part. But I don't see where any of what you wrote supports Old Testament salvation by faith through grace as is taught to the church.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

In the Old Testament, those who believed in the true God were required to do works, which Paul contrasts with grace. It is different, not the same.

 

[Carl]

In the New Testament God actually gave His life to save us. In the Old Testament the people believed that God would keep them through his Goodness.

 

[lightofmylife]

Here is a link that explains. https://www.compellingtruth.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html

 

[SarahRose]

https://www.gotquestions.org/dispensationalism.html

From the article:

"Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on."

That may be oversimplified but, personally, I like how it is put.

 

[athenasius]

Yes, clearly all are saved by faith--I had already agreed with you on that part. But I don't see where any of what you wrote supports Old Testament salvation by faith through grace as is taught to the church.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

In the Old Testament, those who believed in the true God were required to do works, which Paul contrasts with grace. It is different, not the same.

But like James says, those works are the evidence of their faith.

Nobody is saved by keeping the Law, because the Law condemns us. The works they had to do were required by God, and they proved their faith by going up to Jerusalem, sacrificing lambs, doves and the like at the required times for the remittance of their sins. This was done by believing God and acting on that belief which is an act of faith in God and His Word.

By the Law, nobody was saved, but by believing God's commands, and acting on them in faith, they like Abraham in Hebrews 11 which I quoted above for that reason, are justified by faith.

But none of them enjoyed the relationship we have since the cross, and they waited in Abraham's bosom, aka Paradise where the righteous dead remained until the debt was PAID IN FULL

As Jesus cried out IT IS Finished, the exact word was Tetelestai, an accounting term meaning PAID IN FULL.

The blood of bulls and goats, lambs and doves didn't release them until the cross.

The amazing finished work of the cross. The curtain of the Holy of Holies is torn from top to bottom, and we are given full fellowship with the Lord and at Pentecost and since, we've had the fellowship of the Holy Spirit within us.

After the cross, the Jews were operating on the old system which had been fulfilled in Christ's death on the cross. The faith they needed to express was faith in their Messiah and ours.

There is no other way.