Question About 1 Thessalonians 5:3

Walk Softly

Walk Softly

Active Member
I have a question about 1 Thessalonians 5:3. "While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
"
I had thought the Greek used the word Logos for "saying", but Bible Hub has this:
λέγωσιν
legōsin


Does the Greek indicate the tone of voice, as in are they saying "peace and safety" happily, with fear or demanding a solution to a lack of peace and safety? The tone would greatly inform the circumstances. Thanks in advance!
 
usoutpost31

usoutpost31

Well-Known Member
From the context it seems Paul is making a distinction between the children of the light and those who sleep or get drunk at night(those who live unaware). The Day of the Lord will come like a thief upon unbelievers but not us. Jesus also pointed out the obliviousness of the world in his comparisons with Noah and Lot.

False prophets would promote peace and safety, before Jerusalem's fall to Babylon, or promise the deliverance of God, before the destruction of the city in 70 AD. It seems likely that in saying 'peace and safety' the world will be celebrating the AC's covenant with Israel. They do not have the Word of God and won't listen to it, so they won't know what is about to come upon them.
 
mattfivefour

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Walk Softly said:
I have a question about 1 Thessalonians 5:3. "While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
"
I had thought the Greek used the word Logos for "saying", but Bible Hub has this:
λέγωσιν
legōsin


Does the Greek indicate the tone of voice, as in are they saying "peace and safety" happily, with fear or demanding a solution to a lack of peace and safety? The tone would greatly inform the circumstances. Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
The form of a Greek verb indicates all sorts of things: number, gender, tense, voice, and time, among other things. And Greek is an inflected language so the verb changes its spelling for each difference the verb must express. Legosin is a verb form related to the noun logos. The base form is lego which means speak, Legosin is specifically a third person plural (meaning they) and also a present (expressing an ongoing action at the time of the sentence) subjunctive (expressing a hypothetical such as a wish or desire or probability or possibility, but one that is by no means certain) active (meaning the subject(s) of the verb are the ones performing the action (in this case speaking). Thus legosin simply means "they might be saying (or speaking)."
 
Sojourner414

Sojourner414

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mattfivefour said:
The form of a Greek verb indicates all sorts of things: number, gender, tense, voice, and time, among other things. And Greek is an inflected language so the verb changes its spelling for each difference the verb must express. Legosin is a verb form related to the noun logos. The base form is lego which means speak, Legosin is specifically a third person plural (meaning they) and also a present (expressing an ongoing action at the time of the sentence) subjunctive (expressing a hypothetical such as a wish or desire or probability or possibility, but one that is by no means certain) active (meaning the subject(s) of the verb are the ones performing the action (in this case speaking). Thus legosin simply means "they might be saying (or speaking)."
Click to expand...

So when Scripture says "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", does the subjunctive mean they are asking for/ searching for peace and safety? Just seeking to understand this clearly without going in an "off" direction.
 
antitox

antitox

Well-Known Member
Just my opinion here, but I believe they will be using that phrase in much of their global discussions so that it will be quite common. And I figure that it will go on for awhile, then the sudden calamitous events will start.
 
mattfivefour

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
antitox said:
Just my opinion here, but I believe they will be using that phrase in much of their global discussions so that it will be quite common. And I figure that it will go on for awhile, then the sudden calamitous events will start.
Click to expand...
Exactly! As you will see below.
Sojourner414 said:
So when Scripture says "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", does the subjunctive mean they are asking for/ searching for peace and safety? Just seeking to understand this clearly without going in an "off" direction.
Click to expand...
No, not searching. Please keep reading.

I tried to give a simple translation for the subjunctive, as a generalization. But of course, while broadly in the realm of expressing hypothetical actions, Greek subjunctives have a wide range of meanings. The subjunctive mood in koiné Greek provides no sense of time—only of aspect. And what is aspect? Here is one of the simplest explanations of aspect I have ever read, as explained by Classics Professor Jerome Moran in an article entitled Tense, Time, Aspect and the Ancient Greek Verb, published by Cambridge University Press and copyright by The Classical Association 2016.

"To help one to understand what aspect is, let us think about the different sorts of things a verb – a verb in English – can represent. It can stand for an action, event, occurrence, process or state. The same verb can denote all or most of these. Consider the verb ‘to stand’ (or ‘to sit’). This can denote an act (‘he stood up’, i.e. he got up), a process (‘he was standing up’, i.e. he was getting up), a state (‘he stood’ or ‘he was standing’). In Greek these would be ἔστη (aorist), ἵστατο (imperfect), εἱστήει (pluperfect). These are all different ways of viewing or regarding standing. In other words, standing can be seen from several different aspects. We should now be in a better position to understand what the aspect of a verb is. It is the way in which what is denoted by the verb is viewed by the speaker/writer. In general, where the tense of the verb indicates a difference of aspect only (and not of time), the present tense is used to indicate a process, state, ongoing or repeated act/event/ occurrence."​
​


I hope that helped. So, with that understanding of the aspect of the subjunctive we can move to its different uses in independent clauses ... such as in this verse. As I think I said earlier, in general a subjunctive expresses a hypothetical such as a wish or desire or probability or possibility; but in Greek it can also express an exhortation (the hortary subjunctive) or an axiomatic concept. An axiomatic concept is basically a statement of fact.

So, given that legosin follows the conjunction hotan (meaning "when", or "whenever") and then makes a statement of an action that is taking place almost as a condition for the timing of the action of the main verb ("comes" [ἐφίστημι (ephistémi) : which is a Present Indicative Middle or Passive Third Person Singular (singular because the subject "destruction" is singular)] then the most accurate translation of this part of the verse would be something along the lines of "At such a time as people are saying 'peace and security,' then suddenly destruction is coming upon them ...." It may not be elegant, but is basically accurate. The famed Greek scholar and expositor Marvin Vincent viewed the legosin in this verse as a prediction that is "placed in dramatic form" and translates it "When they shall say." Another great Greek scholar and expositor, Kenneth Wuest, translates this passage as "When they are saying 'peace and safety' then comes sudden destruction upon them."

I pray this helps you grasp the true concept of this verse. As a final assist, I'll conclude with an excellent exegesis by Dr. Grant Richison:

"'For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.'​
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"Paul now explains in what sense unbelievers left on earth after the Rapture will resemble unsuspecting victims of a thief. Just at the moment they least expect it, judgment will fall upon them.​
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"'For when they say, "Peace and safety!" ​
​
"Paul does not include himself among those in this verse. He views them as 'they.' This third-person pronoun refers to those left in the Tribulation after the Rapture. The church will not experience this 'sudden destruction.' Paul contrasts believers with non-believers in the next verse (4:4).​
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"Elsewhere, the Bible tells us what brings this delusion of peace. In the Tribulation, a world ruler signs a seven-year contract (Daniel 9:27) wherein the world expects world peace. This is a peace of outward social and political conditions such as will exist at the first part of Daniel’s 70th week. It will seem that mankind achieved inward peace of mind and outward one-world stability.​
​
"In the beginning of the Day of the Lord, that is, in the beginning of the Tribulation period, people will say, 'Peace and safety!' This slogan spreads around the world.​
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"'Peace' refers to inward tranquility of mind. The word 'safety' means not liable to fall, to be firm. They are under the delusion that man has come to a place of world peace so they are safe from any form of danger.​
​
"The word 'when' indicates that non-Christians will say this right up to the moment of disaster. While they repeat their slogan 'Peace and safety!' destruction comes on them."​
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"then sudden destruction comes upon them,​
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“'Destruction' means come to ruin. This is a state of utter ruin but not annihilation, a loss of all that humans think makes life worthwhile. It is not destruction of being but of well-being. Destruction ruins peace and safety. In our verse and in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Paul uses 'destruction' for ushering in the Day of the Lord. Destruction will come suddenly. God’s wrath will come to the world when they least expect it.​
​
"Operating under the myth that they have come to a place of 'peace and safety,' humans will suddenly face 'destruction.' This destruction 'comes upon' them. The words 'come upon' mean to stand over, to set upon. The idea may be that this destruction is at hand but has not fully arrived. Destruction is near, imminent, approaching and impending.​
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"as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.​
​
"Destruction will come upon the world like pangs of a pregnant woman giving birth. The idea is that this is great pain. Calamities will come upon men in the Day of the Lord. When the Day of the Lord comes, the world will be pregnant with pain.​
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"And they shall not escape​
​
"No one will be able to escape judgment in the Day of the Lord. The word 'escape' means to flee out of a place. No one will escape the judgment of God. They will find no safety in flight. There is no place to go. There is no refuge from God.​
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"The word 'not' is strong in the Greek so to flee will be futile. There is no way to avoid God’s judgment. They can no more escape destruction any more than a pregnant woman can escape the pain of delivering her child.​
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"Jesus warned us that people would not listen to warnings of the Day of the Lord (Matthew 24:34). We have a warning of prophetic pain in this passage. The coming Day of the Lord will be terrible for those without Christ."​
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Glory to God! But let us each work while it is still day and proclaim the excellencies, the praises, of God to this generation, lifting up Jesus in word and our lifestyle, so that as many as is possible may be brought into the Kingdom before the Rapture, thus building up the size of the eternal Church which will glorify God forever and ever. For His inexpressible sacrifice at Calvary, He deserves as many souls as we may bring!
 
Jan51

Jan51

Well-Known Member
I Thes. 5:2 speaks of the coming of the day of the Lord, which means the start of the seven years, which we know begins with the signing of the covenant. I always thought it meant that they think the covenant now has brought peace and safety to the world, but instead it will bring destruction. I don’t think it refers to any talk of peace and safety prior to that, because people have always sought that.
 
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Kerbluey

Kerbluey

Well-Known Member
That was really interesting! And clarifying. I’d alway mistakenly thought of “sudden destruction” as a singular event. I can just imagine people greeting each other with smiles and one saying peace while the other replies safety. Or Pelosi holding up a fist sating peace while Schumer fist pumps to the word safety after they finally rid the earth of those primitive Christians and all the people in the crowd in unison fist pump PEACE and fist pump to SAFETY.
 
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