Psalms 83 Questions

livingskies

Well-Known Member
I know, that 7 years weapons burning is a confusing piece. I, too, can't imagine a 3.5 year "betach" post Ezekiel war before the trib. That sounds just silly. What would a peace treaty be needed for then if not right after war?

Could the 7 years burning be for the inhabitants of Israel, as in national Israel, including the gentiles defiling the temple ? So maybe the "saved Jews" (that hide) don't do the 7 years of burning but the nation of Israel, which would include the AC and everyone residing there will be benefiting from the burning of fuel/supplies?
 

livingskies

Well-Known Member
agree.gif


In fact, I believe that Rev 21:1-8 really belong in Rev 20 and are definitely talking about Eternity. It is a natural continuation of that topic of the GTW & Lake o' Fire. John describes the New Jerusalem which I believe will be our home for Eternity. Also talks of No Sea. Yet the Med Sea is named as a border of Israel during the Mill.

Rev 21:8 takes us back to the beginning of the Mill with the Angel that just dumped his bowls. John describes Jerusalem (not New) coming down from Heaven. Which I believe will be the Bride's home for the Millenium. Also describes the Leaves for Healing of the Nations. Won't need healing in Eternity so this must be talking about Millennium timeframe.

(Don't ya just hate it when that guy messes up the chapter breaks like that. Jack Kelly stated once that they are still looking for that guy but haven't quite got him captured just yet.)

Huh. And in my Bible, there is a page break right after chpt 20. I forget that the chapters and verses are for "our" benefit!! Thank you that makes more sense....:thumbup
 

RandallB

Well-Known Member
***.Which gets me back to a long time period (decade or more) post-rapture before the signing of the covenant.

Thank you for your time in responding. :wave


Sorry for the misunderstanding...

Seems to be a decade or more from the Rapture till the 2nd Coming.

4 years +/- post-rapture till confirming/enforcement of the covenant (Beginning of Tribulation).

The signing of the covenant could have happened before the ac is even involved. He confirms or enforces the covenant with the many which is taken to mean Israel.

4 + years does not seem out of the question to me.

The world would be still reeling from a rapture as well two Middle East wars in which Israel was the clear victor. There may be tons of other stuff going on in the world also. China, Korea, Pakistan, et al all seem to be ready to blow up in to wars themselves regionally over various issues especially with the Restrainer taken out.

4+ years after the Restrainer may be a very reasonable timeframe for someone to rise to world power/control during all this chaos.

Israel will have experienced the falling of the Holy Spirit upon them during Ezek 39. They will realize that the Lord is their God again. Won't accept their Messiah yet. But they will want to get back into a Temple/Sacrifice/OT type Covenant relationship with the Lord. They will want a Temple.

Part of this confirming/enforcement of the Covenant seems to allow Israel to rebuild their Temple.

In return the world could get Israel's assurance that Israel will not want to expand their borders any more then they have since they seem to be unstoppable.

4+ years does not seem too long for all that to happen.
 

Blinkofani7

Member
I know, that 7 years weapons burning is a confusing piece. I, too, can't imagine a 3.5 year "betach" post Ezekiel war before the trib. That sounds just silly. What would a peace treaty be needed for then if not right after war?

Could the 7 years burning be for the inhabitants of Israel, as in national Israel, including the gentiles defiling the temple ? So maybe the "saved Jews" (that hide) don't do the 7 years of burning but the nation of Israel, which would include the AC and everyone residing there will be benefiting from the burning of fuel/supplies?

That thought crossed my mind as well. :thumbup
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
agree.gif


In fact, I believe that Rev 21:1-8 really belong in Rev 20 and are definitely talking about Eternity. It is a natural continuation of that topic of the GTW & Lake o' Fire. John describes the New Jerusalem which I believe will be our home for Eternity. Also talks of No Sea. Yet the Med Sea is named as a border of Israel during the Mill.

Rev 21:9 takes us back to the beginning of the Mill with the Angel that just dumped his bowls. John describes Jerusalem (not New) coming down from Heaven. Which I believe will be the Bride's home for the Millenium. Also describes the Leaves for Healing of the Nations. Won't need healing in Eternity so this must be talking about Millennium timeframe.

(Don't ya just hate it when that guy messes up the chapter breaks like that. Jack Kelly stated once that they are still looking for that guy but haven't quite got him captured just yet.)

Thats a good point, wonder if rev. 21 v 1 is seperate from rev 21 v 2, strange that. Have to put my thinking cap on. :thinking: :scratch:
 

Micki

MARANATHA!!
Is there any definitively verse(s) given to make us believe the burning of the weapons cannot continue into the Millenial Kingdom?
 
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RandallB

Well-Known Member
Is there any definitively verse(s) given to make us believe the burning of the weapons cannot continue into the Millenial Kingdom?

Here is a paper by Jack Kelly making a case that weapons could be burned during GT which is possible. Except that a distinction is made between House of David and Inhabitants of Jerusalem. Scripture definitely states that Israel will burn the weapons. So still kinda up in the air but again possible.

The Seven Year Weapons Burning | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith

Endless discussions are possible on what is meant by Burning their Weapons. Nukes??? Lignostone??? Gasoline/Diesel??? or ???

Israel has zero capacity to convert Nuke stuff to supply their electricity needs. Would take years and the overcoming of national aversion to Nuke Power to achieve. Maybe some nuke subs/ships parked in their ports to supply cities with power but that seems extremely remote.

If it involves using Nukes --- that is extremely technical and I cannot believe that that could continue while ac is invading Israel no matter who the city folk are that are left behind.

Most of their electricity is from coal and natural gas. They would need the equivalent of 5 tons of coal per hour to generate their power needs or about 300,000 tons of coal to take care of their 7 years. Don't know what that equates to in Lignostone rifle stocks.....

Israel isn't chopping down trees in their forests for fuel anyway.....

So I have absolutely no idea as to what is meant by Burning their Weapons. Just that it takes 7 years.

As for their energy needs during the Millennium, Rev 21:23-24 seems to indicate that those will be taken care of.

There are other Ezek 38 being Pre-Trib points besides the weapons burning.

Nathan Jones of Lamb and Lion Ministries, mirrors Fruchtenbaum’s argument:
Articles - Prophecy - Tribulation - Timing Gog-Magog

Pros for Ezek 38/39 being Pre-Trib

1) With the world in chaos from a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Russia and its Muslim coalition could seize the opportunity to attack a friendless Israel.
2) With the Muslim Gog-Magog nations out of the picture just before the Tribulation, the Antichrist would have an easier time of making good on a peace covenant with Israel.
3) With the more christianized nations in tatters due to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the Islamic world in ruins from the Gog-Magog Battle, the remaining European world power could fill the vacuum in the Middle East. By making a peace treaty with Israel and easily conquering the lands of the once Middle-Eastern Muslim countries, the Roman Empire could truly be revived once more. The only remaining world powers would be East-Asian, and the Bible records their continued existence (though under the control of the Antichrist) until the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 16:12).
4) With the Muslim world in tatters, Israel would have no resistance to their rebuilding the Temple.
5) The Rapture does not start the Tribulation, but rather the signing of the peace covenant between the Antichrist and Israel does (Dan. 9:27). This fact would allow a 3 1/2 year or more time delay between the Rapture and the Tribulation, giving Israel the full seven years to burn the weapons from the Gog-Magog Battle before being forced to flee into the desert (Matt. 24:15-16).


Cons: to Mid Trib Ezek 38/39
1) Ezekiel 39:9 describes Israel burning the invading enemies weapons for seven years. Placing the Gog-Magog Battle at any time during the Tribulation would push the burning right into the Millennial Kingdom. With Jesus then present to provide everyone's needs, the curse partially lifted (Isa. 11:8) and the Earth reformatted by earthquakes (Rev. 6:12-14; 16:17-21), there would be no need for Israel to have to burn any weapons for fuel.
2) The tremendous persecution of the Jews during the second half of the Tribulation would not grant them the freedom to bury the invaders dead bodies for seven months (Ezek. 39:12) unless the Gog-Magog Battle occurred earlier than the mid-point.
3) If the Gog-Magog Battle happened closer to the mid-point, the question is raised as to why God would rescue Israel so dramatically from the Gog-Magog nations only to hand Israel immediately over to the intense persecution by the Antichrist.
 
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Blinkofani7

Member
Here is a paper by Jack Kelly making a case that weapons could be burned during GT which is possible. Except that a distinction is made between House of David and Inhabitants of Jerusalem. Scripture definitely states that Israel will burn the weapons. So still kinda up in the air but again possible.

The Seven Year Weapons Burning | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith

Endless discussions are possible on what is meant by Burning their Weapons. Nukes??? Lignostone??? Gasoline/Diesel??? or ???

Israel has zero capacity to convert Nuke stuff to supply their electricity needs. Would take years and the overcoming of national aversion to Nuke Power to achieve. Maybe some nuke subs/ships parked in their ports to supply cities with power but that seems extremely remote.

If it involves using Nukes --- that is extremely technical and I cannot believe that that could continue while ac is invading Israel no matter who the city folk are that are left behind.

Most of their electricity is from coal and natural gas. They would need the equivalent of 5 tons of coal per hour to generate their power needs or about 300,000 tons of coal to take care of their 7 years. Don't know what that equates to in Lignostone rifle stocks.....

Israel isn't chopping down trees in their forests for fuel anyway.....

So I have absolutely no idea as to what is meant by Burning their Weapons. Just that it takes 7 years.

As for their energy needs during the Millennium, Rev 21:23-24 seems to indicate that those will be taken care of.

There are other Ezek 38 being Pre-Trib points besides the weapons burning.

Nathan Jones of Lamb and Lion Ministries, mirrors Fruchtenbaum’s argument:
Articles - Prophecy - Tribulation - Timing Gog-Magog

Excellent! :nod
 

Elijah's Mantle

Well-Known Member
:yeah:
yes I agree very excellent :nod

I have a notion about the time yet will have to do some going over before putting it out as food for thought :thinking:
 

Blinkofani7

Member
Here is a paper by Jack Kelly making a case that weapons could be burned during GT which is possible. Except that a distinction is made between House of David and Inhabitants of Jerusalem. Scripture definitely states that Israel will burn the weapons. So still kinda up in the air but again possible.

The Seven Year Weapons Burning | GracethrufaithGracethrufaith

Endless discussions are possible on what is meant by Burning their Weapons. Nukes??? Lignostone??? Gasoline/Diesel??? or ???

Israel has zero capacity to convert Nuke stuff to supply their electricity needs. Would take years and the overcoming of national aversion to Nuke Power to achieve. Maybe some nuke subs/ships parked in their ports to supply cities with power but that seems extremely remote.

If it involves using Nukes --- that is extremely technical and I cannot believe that that could continue while ac is invading Israel no matter who the city folk are that are left behind.

Most of their electricity is from coal and natural gas. They would need the equivalent of 5 tons of coal per hour to generate their power needs or about 300,000 tons of coal to take care of their 7 years. Don't know what that equates to in Lignostone rifle stocks.....

Israel isn't chopping down trees in their forests for fuel anyway.....

So I have absolutely no idea as to what is meant by Burning their Weapons. Just that it takes 7 years.

As for their energy needs during the Millennium, Rev 21:23-24 seems to indicate that those will be taken care of.

There are other Ezek 38 being Pre-Trib points besides the weapons burning.

Nathan Jones of Lamb and Lion Ministries, mirrors Fruchtenbaum’s argument:
Articles - Prophecy - Tribulation - Timing Gog-Magog

These are excellent points. One question regarding #5. Does that mean the bride and bridegroom have a "honeymoon" longer than 7 years?
Pros for Ezek 38/39 being Pre-Trib

1) With the world in chaos from a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Russia and its Muslim coalition could seize the opportunity to attack a friendless Israel.
2) With the Muslim Gog-Magog nations out of the picture just before the Tribulation, the Antichrist would have an easier time of making good on a peace covenant with Israel.
3) With the more christianized nations in tatters due to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and the Islamic world in ruins from the Gog-Magog Battle, the remaining European world power could fill the vacuum in the Middle East. By making a peace treaty with Israel and easily conquering the lands of the once Middle-Eastern Muslim countries, the Roman Empire could truly be revived once more. The only remaining world powers would be East-Asian, and the Bible records their continued existence (though under the control of the Antichrist) until the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 16:12).
4) With the Muslim world in tatters, Israel would have no resistance to their rebuilding the Temple.
5) The Rapture does not start the Tribulation, but rather the signing of the peace covenant between the Antichrist and Israel does (Dan. 9:27). This fact would allow a 3 1/2 year or more time delay between the Rapture and the Tribulation, giving Israel the full seven years to burn the weapons from the Gog-Magog Battle before being forced to flee into the desert (Matt. 24:15-16).
 

Sydney Spider

The Lady Spider
This discussion about a possible interval of several years between the Rapture and the commencement of the Tribulation has made me think that I need to go back and edit my "left behind" letter to mention that possibility.....because the new post-Rapture saints might be confused if the signing of the AC Covenant and the Tribulation doesn't happen soon after the Rapture, if that's their expectation. I know I would be.
 

MePlus6

Well-Known Member
I'm resurrecting this old thread three years later to talk more about Ps 83 and, more specifically, how it relates to what we're seeing now with Russia, Iran and Turkey now having formed an alliance and with Russia's presence in Syria. I thought one of the requirements of Ps 83 is that Israel will be without walls. As quickly as the Russia-led coalition is forming in Syria on Israel's border, does this really make Ps 83 something that should be coming up quickly since it precedes Ez 38/39?
 

Joseph The Carpenter

Well-Known Member
Springtime is the usual start to the fighting season in the middle east, but with today's modern weapons and the speed with which events are occurring it could start before Christmas.
With Irans nuke program gone and the only Arab nations left with a usable army will be the ones fighting alongside ISRAEL they will need no walls.
Than ISRAEL will unite with HER arab neighbors to sell gas and oil to Europe and China and Putin will see and opportunity to come and take a spoil.

I miss Lujack.
 

Hol

Worships Him
Thanks for bumping this thread!

Personally, I follow the logic of those who posted that a Psalm 83 war preceding the Ezekiel war of Gog Magog would require too much time. Israel has a sense of security (wall-less) now, with tensions in the ME largely opposing the gratitious violence / terrorism of the neighbors from the PA. Should Israel engage in a Psalm 83 war first, it could take years to recover before any sense of security is reestablished.

Some think that Psalm 83 was fulfilled, or a general imprecatory prayer for protection against enemies.

The Bible teacher who was popular when promoting a Psalm 83 war, Bill Salus, has been connecting with questionable teachers like Jonathan Cahn, and Tom Horn, etc. His credibility has slipped.

Remember that the entire reason for Israel's end days war is to bring Israel to a recognition that they have forgotten God. It isn't about the judgements that their enemies deserve.

I like what Randall B is always quick to remind us of: Christ's bride is not going to experience wrath, but once we're removed His focus is on Israel. That 'time of Jacob's troubles' results in salvation, so it seems unlikely that Israel will be beat up and recovering from a Psalm 83 war then faced with the Ezekiel war.

There will be a limit on all of this. In Matt. 24:22 Jesus us tells us no flesh will survive those days unless He shortened them.

:idunno
 

Endangered

Well-Known Member
My take on the timing of Psalms 83 and Gog/Magog is that both are likely to occur prior to the beginning of the 7 year Trib. I base this on the fact that Israel must be living in peace and weapons will be burned for 7 years. None of the nations that border Israel are listed in the Gog/Magog list of attacking nations. One reasonable conclusion is that at the time of Gog/Magog they no longer exist as nations because Israel defeated them in the earlier Psalms 83 conflict. So my best guess as to the order of events is:
First - Psalms 83
Second - Gog/Magog
Third - AC treaty with Israel and the start of the 7 year Trib
The rapture may occur anywhere in this timeline but I think it will be sometime before the treaty. No one knows the rapture timing, even Jesus. It will happen sometime after the "fullness of the Gentiles" which is nothing I can even guess about.
After the Psalms 83 conflict, Israel will be much safer and most of the rest of the world will be royally ticked off. The Russkies and Iran will see their bases in Syria gone and the inherent Islamic hate of Israel will be through the roof. Gog/Magog may also be the way the AC finally neuters Islam.
I suspect, but have no scripture to back this up, that Psalms 83 may happen fairly soon after the rapture. The nations surrounding Israel will see that Israel's numero uno protector, the US, is no longer a player on the world stage and this may embolden them to act and act quickly. I believe the Psalms 83 nations to be Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and perhaps Egypt.
My guess is that after Psalms 83 Israel's borders may include all of the land in God's original gift to the Jews. This may also include a corner of Saudi Arabia and the Sinai peninsula.
At the mid-point of the Trib, the AC will declare himself to be God and a bunch of the Jews will take refuge in Petra which is now in Jordan. I think this is only possible if Jordan is one of the Psalms 83 nations that are defeated.
Isaiah 17 prophecies that Damascus will be destroyed so thoroughly that it will never again be occupied. This might be an Israeli nuke during Psalms 83 or it could be that many of the warplanes of Gog/Magog are destroyed by God over Damascus, effectively destroying the city when they crash and their bombs ignite.
God told us all he felt like we needed to know about End Times. He left a lot of holes in his narrative. I believe this is one of God's tests of his callen, accepting God's word and his promises by faith.
I believe we may be spectators to all this, from a much safer and higher plain. And we will all be part of God's mop-up crew when the time comes to defeat the AC and send him to his lake place.
We all need to make sure our belief system includes, with no doubts, that Jesus is our savior and that his divinity is unquestioned. You don't want to be left behind.
 

Joseph The Carpenter

Well-Known Member
My view and many others at Rapture Ready were of a Psalm83 war before Bill Salus came onto the scene.
The most difficult part of no Psalm 83 war for me is that all those countries who hate ISRAEL are not mentioned in Ezekiel38. I just can not see them watching Gog attack ISRAEL from the sidelines and not joining in. Also Iran is not a leader in Ezekiel 38, they are a secondary player after Jeremiah49. I also have a hard time putting Isaiah17 in Ezekiel38.
As far as the time line I see Psalm83 within the next year and than a couple of years to clean up and Ezekiel38.
 
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