Psalm 83

KR McKay

Well-Known Member
Since we don't have a "Psalm 83" section, I thought I'd put this here, and let the Admins move it if it needs to be moved.

Anyway, I have a simple question: Is Babylon located in the lands that Israel will capture in the Psalm 83 war, or will it be south of the "New (Expanded) Israel?"
 

Eco

Well-Known Member
Great question. :thumbup

I did a quick check over at
http://www.biblemap.org
and also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
(just to check where historic Babylon was)

And from looking at the both of them I would have to say it will be.

The wiki page tells us that Babylon was about 55km or so south of modern day Baghdad, and if you look at the map of places that are conspiring against Israel, one of them is below that.

Anyone who is more of an expert on this, or just someone extremely knowledgeable (lookin at you mattfivefour) is more than welcome to also help answer this, but based on those two very limited recourses I used,
I would have to say Yes, yes it will.
 

Sean Osborne

Well-Known Member
I think not since the Lord through the prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah stated that Babylon would never be continuously inhabited again. Since it's destruction it has not. It remains to this day a small sand and dust covered mound of ruins about 80-some odd clicks south of Baghdad.

The attempted (in the near vicinity) recreation of "Babylon" by the Nebuchadnezzar wannabe and now ambient-desert-dirt temperature Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti is nothing more than his vain attempt to build an Arab-Islamic version of Disney World (i.e. Fastasy Land).
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
I agree with Sean. And that is why I am not prepared to accept that the "Babylon" of Revelation is necessarily the original Babylon in Iraq. For it to be would contradict God's own prophecy in Jeremiah 50:39 ... presuming that the indefinite pronoun (it) in this verse refers to the city and not to the country. If it is synecdoche and therefore actually refers to the country then it is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled since Iraq obviously still exists. If it is literal and refers to the city, then it is a fulfilled prophecy, and were Babylon ever to be inhabited again it would make it a failed prophecy ... which it cannot be. Therefore I interpret (not to hijack this thread) but I interpret the Revelation "Babylon" to be a different place.
 

KR McKay

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Sean and Matt!

...I interpret the Revelation "Babylon" to be a different place...not to hijack this thread...

Brother, don't worry about a "hijacking" when you have good points like those to make! I had considered that, somehow, Babylon would again become inhabited in order for it to fall, as in Revelation. The prophecies about it falling and never being inhabited again I had read before, but they had slipped my mind completely, so thanks to you both for recalling them to me!

This, in fact, in my mind, "advances" the "clock" a bit. I had been thinking that Babylon would have to be seriously rebuilt in a big hurry in order for some of the other "end-time" prophecies to also be fulifilled. Thanks to you two pointing out that, in fact, literal Babylon is "out of the picture" -- "clears" the screen a bit in my mind.

Thanks, again!
 

Sean Osborne

Well-Known Member
KR,

Do you have a copy or have you read Bill Salus' book "Isralestine" yet?

If not then please run to the nearest bookstore and get a copy. If you would prefer privately send me your mailing address and I will see that you get an autographed copy directly from Bill.
 

KR McKay

Well-Known Member
The assumption is, I assume, that both Psalm 83 & Gog/Magog will be post-Rapture, right?

To me, it makes sense because such attacks will be easier to orchestrate without all of we "meddlesome Christians" around to cause problems -- you know, all that praying and such...

But, there is no Scripture to support this assumption, is there? (Or, is there)?
 

Eco

Well-Known Member
The assumption is, I assume, that both Psalm 83 & Gog/Magog will be post-Rapture, right?

To me, it makes sense because such attacks will be easier to orchestrate without all of we "meddlesome Christians" around to cause problems -- you know, all that praying and such...

But, there is no Scripture to support this assumption, is there? (Or, is there)?
No, there isn't. The rapture is a signless event, and can happen at any moment. Perhaps could even happen before I finish typing this response. Here's to hoping....
Anyway, it does tend to make a little bit more sense that it would happen post rapture. Tim Lahaye of "Left Behind" fame tends to think it'll happen shortly after the rapture, even though he put it chronologically before the rapture in his books.

It could happen either way though. I personally hope they'll both happen before the rapture as a last ditch effort to witness to the world. Remember, the Gog attack has the world knowing there is a God in Heaven, so at that point it would be much easier to just point them to this prophecy and pray with and for them.

I have heard some people describe the new Babylon as being the fallen church. The attached article says it is the Catholic church but the point being it might not be an actual physical location. Anyway, it is just a thought. I personally don’t know for sure what or where it will be.
The beast headquarters himself in Mystery Babylon, so I'm pretty sure it does need to be a physical location.
 

Sean Osborne

Well-Known Member
The assumption is, I assume, that both Psalm 83 & Gog/Magog will be post-Rapture, right?


KR McKay,

These two wars are distinctly different wars, separated by some unknown number of years and with the Gog/Magog being a subsequent war to that of Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83.

Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 may well occur prior to the Harpazo - there's no hint in either of these prophecies about the Bride of Christ being removed from the Earth when the prophecied events occur. Then again, as we all know, the Harpazo is always an imminence.

However, Gog/Magog is another matter entirely in this regard, and is something I wrote an exegetical work about one month ago. There's an entirely different contextual time perspective apparent at the conclusion of Ezekiel 39:29 in the KJV, NKJV and Young's Literal translations. The Lord's pouring out of His Spirit on all Israel (the house of Israel) is in the past tense ... not "I will pour out", but rather "I shall have poured out."

I believe the Harpazo will have occured prior to this pouring out of the Lord's Spirit upon all Israel.


Epilogue: The Prophetic Road to Revelation



Quoting my article:

And finally, in verse 29 ("Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD."), we see what I believe is a grammatical past-tense confirmation that the promised saving of all Israel by the Old Testament prophets and by the Apostle Paul (see Romans 11) will have been accomplished no later than the conclusion of the War of Gog/Magog, thereby and according to Dispensationalists such as myself, the Harpazo, the Rapture of the Bride of Christ will have occurred and the Church age will have passed into history, and planet Earth will have arrived on the doorstep of Daniel's 70th Week of Year, the 7-year Tribulation, which will conclude with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His millennial Kingdom.
 

Idefix

Member
About Babylon, I just happened to run across this. Not sure about the site and their translation, and their Bible translation so far only covers the NT. Anyone know what they can be basing this statement on...?

"A significant event in this end-time period will be the rebuilding of the old city of Babylon. Some ask, "How can that be? Bible prophecy states that Babylon will never be rebuilt." True! Babylon will never be rebuilt after it is burned. But it has never yet been burned, at least not since the prophecy of its destruction was made. The Bible reveals some very interesting facts concerning new Babylon. For one thing, it will be the capital city of the Antichrist. The country of Iraq is, even at the time of this writing, rebuilding Babylon. "
http://lastdaysbible.org/view/339/8202/Prophecy-Overview.html
 

Eco

Well-Known Member
I'm not extremely impressed with them. They don't really have a FAQ section about their bible, and all I can see of note is that they are focused on prophecy. That's all well and good, but the bible is much more than just a few prophecies.

As for their statement, I'm not at all sure where they came up with that. Maybe Mattfivefour will have a little more insight into that, or someone else, but I really don't know what they're talking about.

I prefer the NASB as it is probably the most accurate translation out, and tend to stay away from lesser known translations such as this.
 

happy2serve

Well-Known Member
Just skimming through this briefly, this phrase caught my attention:

We are told that in the end time the Holy Spirit will step aside (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) and allow sin to take its natural course without His restraining influence, thereby allowing sin to become fully ripe. With moral decay rampant today it seems certain that He has already stepped aside
I would argue that the Holy Spirit has NOT YET stepped aside; it is just that humanity as a whole is rejecting Him more and more. The rapture is the event that removes the Holy Spirit out of the way.

Just by this quote alone, makes me very suspicious of this translation.
 

SoulSinger

SoulSinger
Just skimming through this briefly, this phrase caught my attention:

We are told that in the end time the Holy Spirit will step aside (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) and allow sin to take its natural course without His restraining influence, thereby allowing sin to become fully ripe. With moral decay rampant today it seems certain that He has already stepped aside
I would argue that the Holy Spirit has NOT YET stepped aside; it is just that humanity as a whole is rejecting Him more and more. The rapture is the event that removes the Holy Spirit out of the way.

Just by this quote alone, makes me very suspicious of this translation.
Yes.... I thought the "Holy Spirit stepping aside" would be as a result of the rapture... the Christians will be gone, thus so will the Holy Spirit.
 

Sean Osborne

Well-Known Member
I'm not extremely impressed with them. They don't really have a FAQ section about their bible, and all I can see of note is that they are focused on prophecy. That's all well and good, but the bible is much more than just a few prophecies.
"Just a few prophecies"? It may shock you to learn that about 30% of the Holy Bible is prophecy.
 

Eco

Well-Known Member
"Just a few prophecies"? It may shock you to learn that about 30% of the Holy Bible is prophecy.
and so 70% is not...I'm not nearly as ignorant as you're trying to make me out to be Sean. Prophecy is how God validates His word. It isn't the only thing in there. There's Historical Accounts, Didactic Literature, Poetry, and like 4 or 5 more categories other than just prophecy.

Prophecy is obviously important, but it isn't the only thing the Word of God has to say. In fact, Jesus spent very little time teaching prophecy relatively on His ministry on earth. He also told us that it's not for us to know times or epochs established by the Father.
 

SisterNChrist

Well-Known Member
Here's this out of my JVI Prophecy Bible's YOUR FUTURE: An A-Z Index to Prophecy section, pages 2-3...

AMERICA

There are a number of chapters within God's Word that seem to picture the USA. No other nation throughout history can so convincingly fulfill all of the requirements of the texts. America is certainly included in the judgments upon all nations (Ezekiel 39:21). America also seems to be the political Babylon of Revelation 18. God's Word mentions three Babylons: a city (Genesis 11), a church (Revelation 17), and a country (Revelation 18). Don't confuse the three.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, and John describe this country:
Isaiah 18:1,2 --America's emblem, with outstretched wings; beyond the sea from Israel; a nation, scattered and peeled, meaning spread out and cultured; measured or staked out and polluted in its waterways.
Jeremiah 50 --Here she is called the heritage of the Lord and faces judgment because of her backsliding (vs. 11). A nation of mingled people (vs. 37); a nation whose coexisting "mother" (England) is confounded at the hour of her decline (vs. 12).
Jeremiah 51 --In this text America is bordered by the world's two largest oceans and possesses its longest river (vs. 13); her wealth plagues the nations to jealousy (vs. 7); her space exploits are fantastic (vs. 53).

John pictures two Babylons in Revelation. One is world religion (chapter 17), the other an internationally respected nation (vs. 3); laden with sin (vs. 5), with a superabundance of material goods producing idleness and sin (vs. 7).

America today is surely laden with iniquity with its drunkenness, drug addiction, tobacco, gambling, prostitution, smut peddlers, immorality, abortions, mercy killers, murderers, robbers, and looters. There is specific judgment administered against Babylon, identified as America. A sneak attack is predicted in Jeremiah 50:24 and in one hour Babylon is destroyed (Revelation 18:10). Some biblical scholars beileve that Russia starts the sneak nuclear attack against the USA, crippling her, and then against Israel (Ezekien 39:2). Whatever the alignment of events, it is clear that both nations fall, Christ returns, and world peace begins.
 
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