Psalm with understanding

Discussion in 'Isaiah 17 / Psalm 83' started by TruthBJesus, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. TruthBJesus

    TruthBJesus Well-Known Member

    First, I post this not to be an agitator. Instead, being a truth seeker, I wish to get some actual clarification of the text regarding Psalm 83. So many books, speculation, what if scenarios make their rounds, as well as films. No where do I see the Lord God stating He will do thus and such as many purport as if this prayer is yet a future prophetic fulfillment. Please try to follow my reasoning here as we re-read this Psalm in its entirety once again:

    Psalm 83

    1 O God, do not keep silence;
    do not hold your peace or be still, O God!
    2 For behold, your enemies make an uproar;
    those who hate you have raised their heads.
    3 They lay crafty plans against your people;
    they consult together against your treasured ones.
    4 They say, "Come, let us wipe them out as a nation;
    let the name of Israel be remembered no more!"
    5 For they conspire with one accord;
    against you they make a covenant—
    6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
    Moab and the Hagrites,
    7 Gebal and Ammon and Amalek,
    Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;
    8 Asshur also has joined them;
    they are the strong arm of the children of Lot.Selah
    9 Do to them as you did to Midian,
    as to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
    10 who were destroyed at En-dor,
    who became dung for the ground.
    11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
    all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
    12 who said, "Let us take possession for ourselves
    of the pastures of God."
    13 O my God, make them like whirling dust,
    like chaff before the wind.
    14 As fire consumes the forest,
    as the flame sets the mountains ablaze,
    15 so may you pursue them with your tempest
    and terrify them with your hurricane!
    16 Fill their faces with shame,
    that they may seek your name, O Lord.
    17 Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever;
    let them perish in disgrace,
    18 that they may know that you alone,
    whose name is the Lord,
    are the Most High over all the earth.

    The prayer is asking the Lord to step in, to fill their faces with shame, that they would know the Lord and make them like whirling dust. No where does this state that the Lord say's, "I will do this, thus say's the Lord".

    Now granted, as a result of God demonstrating His power, especially in the Ezekiel 38 war, these peoples will know that He is Lord. But realistically, this prayer makes it evident that it is the spirit of those neighboring peoples who continually wish to drive Israel into the sea....has been since Israel became a nation in 1948. This spirit continued throughout Israel's existence and the plot of those neighboring peoples was always to "wipe them out as a nation".

    A brief reading of each of those wars from 1948 to Yom Kippur to the 6th day war to Lebanon to Gaza...all are applicable in this prayer. This Psalm is also applicable to this very day and will be literally through the Ezekiel Gog-Magog war. Somehow, this particular prayer became an "event" yet future. I fail to see it. The prayer is calling out to God to show Himself that those with that spirit (the spirit that desires the name of Israel is no more) would be put to shame.

    I do see how there are those that consider this Psalm as directly tied to yet a future event but in no way is it a prophetic "item" to yet take has been going on since the rebirth of Israel as a nation and continues to this day.

    God has certainly showed himself in those previous wars with Israel being outmanned, out gunned, without much hope of success. The initial conflict in 1948 was nothing but miraculous as was the 6 day war or Yom Kippur. The fact that Israel regained the Golan Heights is yet again God showing his protection over HIS land.

    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  2. Andy C

    Andy C Well-Known Member

    Not feeling up to debate today, so below is from Jack. I will admit Im not married to the fact this HAS to be an event vice a prayer. However, Israel has enemies as border countries and none of them are mentioned in Ezekiel 38-39.

    Question:How do we know that Psalm 83 (which, to me, sounds like a prayer, rather than a prophecy) is actually a prophecy of war? What makes that “prayer” a “prophecy” that we know as the Psalm 83 war ?

    Answer: You’re correct in saying Psalm 83 is a prayer, but that doesn’t make it a hypothetical one, such as when we pray for protection against whatever danger might arise. The prayer is too specific in naming the names of Israel’s enemies, even quoting their words.

    Nothing that would have fulfilled Psalm 83 has ever happened, so there are two possibilities. Either the prayer was answered pre-emptively and God over ruled the enemy’s plan, or the prayer was for a future time.

    Until recently we might have accepted the first possibility, but suddenly modern nations occupying the lands of the very enemies Psalm 83 spoke of are surrounding Israel and threatening to attack, and they’re uttering the very words from Psalm 83:4.

    “Come,” they say. “Let us destroy them as a nation, that the name of Israel will be remembered no more.”

    Then you have the fact that these enemies, against all logic, will not be involved in a prophecy we know is about an attack against Israel (Ezekiel 38). Why are they missing? Is it because they will have already been defeated? These are strong circumstantial indicators that Psalm 83 is a prophecy that will soon be fulfilled.
  3. greg64

    greg64 Well-Known Member

    To me, the motive describes the Arab-Israeli wars of the 20th century. Israel now has peace with Jordan and Egypt, and increasingly warmer and more open relations with many of the Arab states. Indeed, they share common interests against Iran, which is not mentioned in the Psalm. In my opinion, the best argument for a future Psalm war is the implication of the unwalled villages thing from Ezekiel. I just can't see Israel resting easy with Iran an uncountered mortal threat, currently on their northern border in Syria.

    I count Psalm 83 as fulfilled... the nations did plot in vain and God acted through the course of several wars to preserve his people and reclaim Jerusalem... it just wasn't the total destruction of the antagonists and vast expansion of territory that people expect. If there is a future Psalm conflict, how does Iran stay out of it?

    I could well be wrong, but do think this is probably an issue that's easier to see as we get closer to the Ezekiel war than it was in recent years.
  4. Batfan7

    Batfan7 Active Member

    This is a interesting perspective. I haven't considered whether this psalm might be a longer term, spread out over several years and several wars. It will be interesting to see how the future plays out.
  5. Saved and Waiting

    Saved and Waiting Well-Known Member

    Also from Jack's web page:

    Ask a Bible Teacher » A Cup Of Trembling. Follow Up

    I have always been of the opinion that the Psalm 83 war will come before the Ezekiel 38/39 war. If this is the case then Iran should not be in the war that is about to break upon Israel, as Iran is not mentioned in Psalm 83.
    I agree Iran’s proxies will fight, but not Iran herself. Maybe, therefore, the naval fleets building up in the Mediterranean will be sufficient to keep Iran out of this war but allow her proxies to go full on with Israel?


    There are several points that argue against the possibility of this war being the one foretold in Ezekiel 38-39. Israel is not an unsuspecting people living in peace as Ezekiel 38:11 requires.

    Iran is one of the chief aggressors against Israel in Ezekiel 38-39, but in the event of war now Israel would likely be attacking Iran.

    Then there’s the fact that none of Israel’s next door neighbors appear in Ezekiel 38-39, but as you said all will fight as Iran’s surrogates in this one. I think it’s more likely we’ll soon be seeing the battles of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 not Ezekiel 38. (end of Jack's answer).

    Important fact for me here is that none of Israel's next door neighbors appear in Ezekiel 38-39...something has happened to them...something big or they would have been listed in the Ezekiel war...they hate Israel. I believe Psalms 83 is a prayer and also a war yet to come, Israel neutralizes it's neighbors when they attack Israel in unison, and gains back land that God gave them. To me, that extra maneuvering ability with the addition of a lot more territory will give Israel it's having a sense of peace and security. Damascus, Syria has never been completely obliterated and is the oldest continually inhabited city that has ever been. Isaiah 17 will take care of that and I believe will occur jointly with Psalm 83's war. I think we are getting so close to having our questions answered and I trust God in whatever way this all goes down. Blessings to all!!
  6. MePlus6

    MePlus6 Well-Known Member

    I don't have anything to add but I am glad this topic opened up so I could learn more anout Ps 83.
  7. Chris

    Chris Administrator Staff Member

    My position is rather than a "either or" stance that it could be BOTH a prayer and prophecy. That would seem to satisfy both sides argument. The plain truth is that the verses don't say when this happens. It just names who is involved, their motives, etc. Something won't be known on this side of things. I wouldn't make it a big deal either. I was at the beginning strongly on the side of it being a prophecy, but then settled on it being possibly being both. This is one of those things were it doesn't say something like "in the later years" or anything similar. We will just have to wait and see is how I take this issue now. With the ways things are going, we might not have long to wait. :sad
  8. Kaatje

    Kaatje Well-Known Member

  9. Kenny64

    Kenny64 Well-Known Member

    Imprecatory psalms are those psalms that contain curses or prayers for the punishment of the psalmist's enemies. To imprecate means to invoke evil upon, or curse. Psalms 7, 35, 55, 58, 59, 69, 83, 79, 109, 137 and 139 all contain prayers for God's judgment on the psalmist's enemies.

    v9. Do to them as you did to Midian, etc Read story of Gideon Judges 6

    v11. Make their nobles like Oreb, etc Read Judge 5 and verse 25

    v17. Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

    v18. That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

    Maybe not exactly "Thus saith the Lord", But pretty close, and those 10 listed people's that Asaph prayer for retributive justice has not been fulfilled yet as of today those 10 nations still exist round about Israel as a sovereign nation.
    BTW read Exekiel 28: 24,25,26 has not been fulfilled either. "No more prickling brier ……"

    2 Chronicles 29:30
    King Hezekiah and his officials ordered the Levites to praise the LORD with the words of David and of Asaph the seer.
    So they sang praises with gladness and bowed down and worshiped.

    Asaph was a prominent Levite singer and seer in David’s court and was the son of Berachiah of the tribe of Levi. (1Chr 6:39, 1Chr 15:17, 1Chr 15:19 ; 1Chr 16:4-7 ; 2Chr 29:30). He is the ancestor of the Sons of Asaph, one of the great family guilds of temple musicians. Asaph is featured prominently in Chronicles.

    another word for "seer" is prophet.

    Lastly I know this …..1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  10. chaser

    chaser Well-Known Member

    I like reading and trying to connect dots , with that said my novice mind for the prophetic understands Ezekiel 38-39 because I can see the players right now making their alignments, first time in Israel's history for them to align all at once. But as far as Psalms 83 I do not know , I always thought it was a prayer or request, but I do know I like reading what you all are writing. It is interesting to get many insights, glad my salvation does not hang on a high test score for understanding prophesy , and the blood of the Lamb decides. Hope this thread continues a while.
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  11. Kenny64

    Kenny64 Well-Known Member

    The Bible is true and 100% divinely inspired Word of God. Matthew 4:4 2 Timothy 3:16

    so..Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
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  12. Kenny64

    Kenny64 Well-Known Member

    So, A prophet or seer, Asaph did pray this and wrote down. Obviously the people's or enemy's surrounding them at the time where warlike enemies. What happened to Gideon's enemy's?
    Gideon was a man of faith. He wished to be sure that God was leading him, and he prayed to God....!
    Midianites were destroyed utterly...…
    But Gideon said:
    "No, you have a king already; for the Lord God is the King of Israel. No one but God shall be king over these tribes."

    The point is Gideon did not take credit for destruction of enemy's. GOD is the authority.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  13. madcat

    madcat Well-Known Member

    I just watched a video of Jack Hibbs and Jan Markell on YouTube last night, released 1/4. During the Q&A, someone asks this same question, and Jack's answer was very plausible. That Psalm 83 was/is a "spirit" of satanic intentions against Israel, not necessarily a specific battle.
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  14. cchomeschoolmom

    cchomeschoolmom Well-Known Member

    I wonder if the areas that are controlled by hamas even qualify as independent countries anymore. They are pretty much completely controlled by Iran.
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  15. mattfivefour

    mattfivefour Administrator Staff Member

  16. Endangered

    Endangered Well-Known Member

    Gog/Magog is specific about the opposing combatants and Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Gaza are NOT listed. I believe Psalms 83 is a war which lays the groundwork for G/M. Israel must be living in peace immediately prior to G/M and the Psalms 83 war makes this possible by eliminating the threat of the surrounding Islamic countries.
    This is speculation on my part but it does make sense given the requirement that Israel be living in peace.
    If I had to guess the order of events to come it would be :
    1. Psalms 83
    2. Rapture
    3. Gog/Magog
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  17. Ohioan

    Ohioan Well-Known Member

    Criticism #5: To Be Fulfilled at Armageddon

    Dr. Reagan: Another criticism some say against Psalm 83 being a contemporary end time war is that Psalm 83 must then be part of the Armageddon campaign at the end of the Tribulation. What about that?

    Bill Salus: Yes, that is one of the final arguments I hear. I think that one is probably one of the easier ones to dispel, too.

    If someone understands the Tribulation, then they know that the seven year period is often divided up into two halves based on verses in Revelation 11, Revelation 12, Daniel 7, and Daniel 12. They talk about the first 3 1/2 years and a second 3 1/2 years. The first 3 1/2 years are characterized by an Israel that is dwelling in a sense of false security. The confirmation of a false covenant has been made by the Antichrist in Daniel 9:26-27. Israel then feels as if they are dwelling securely, although it is a false sense of security. But, they're not fighting off the Arabs for a change. They're not engaged in a massive Arab-Israeli war. They are actually feeling like they are at a point of peace. As a matter of fact, Israel becomes so complacent that the Israeli Defense Forces I believe can't even stop the Antichrist from going in at the middle of the Tribulation and abominating the Temple. So, that's the first half.

    Now, the second half of the Tribulation even Jesus warns in Matthew 24:15-19 that when you see the abomination that causes desolation which characterizes at midpoint of the Tribulation, He tells the Jewish people to flee immediately. That's flee immediately, not fight immediately. Flee immediately because there is a genocidal attempt that's coming upon them, even worse than any of the others before. We are told in Zechariah 13:8 that two-thirds of the Jewish people will be cut off in from the land. They will not be fighting in my estimation, they will be fleeing.

    Therefore, Psalm 83 cannot be part of the Armageddon campaign. It will probably precede Ezekiel 38 & 39 and even be a Pre-Trib event. Psalm 83 will probably happen in our time, and that's what I'm watching for it really quite closely.

    Remember that Psalm 83 couldn't have happened between 70 AD and 1948 AD because the specific mandate is for those bordering nations to want to destroy the nation of Israel and that the name of Israel can be remembered no more. There was no nation of Israel in those years.

    We've already put forward that Psalm 83 couldn't have happened in the Old Testament. It couldn't have happened in the Diaspora. But, it can happen now since 1948. And, it won't happen in the Tribulation.

    Dr. Reagan: You feel very strongly that Psalm 83 is likely to be waged before Gog & Magog?

    Bill Salus: I do, because Israel does not dwell securely right now. That is a prerequisite from Ezekiel 38:13.
  18. GotGrace

    GotGrace Well-Known Member

    Indeed we will have to wait and see.
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