@HeIsEnoughII ...Water baptism is an individual event in ones life. "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?"
Infant or Believers Baptism?
(Which both Rome and E.O. practice but is conspicuously absent in Scripture)
I know, I have been through the Churches on both sides of the Font. (Lutheran/Reformed/Calvary Chapels/Baptist etc)Some Protestant denominations also practice infant Baptism. There is Scriptural support for it. Some Protestant denominations only practice believer's Baptism. There is Scriptural support for it. The difference is how Bible verses referencing children and nations are understood by different Christians/churches/denominations.
Most churches that only practice believer's Baptism do not require a member, who was Baptized as an infant, to get re-Baptized. Churches that do require re-Baptism generally also teach that Baptism is required for salvation. However, if this were the case, then people like the thief on the cross could not have been saved, but we know that he was saved because of what Jesus said.
According to Bible.org:
"There are few subjects more controversial, more divisive or more abused in Christendom today than the doctrine of baptism.
By many Christians baptism is relegated to a place of virtual insignificance. By others it is totally ignored as a nonessential.
By still others it is regarded as the entrance into church membership. Some esteem it to be an indispensable condition for one’s salvation.
But what do the scriptures teach?
The first thing which can be assuredly asserted from the Word of God is that it is a command of the Lord. This is The Basis For Baptism
To His small band of faithful followers the resurrected Christ, just prior to His ascension, said:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go, Therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Here is a solemn responsibility for the apostles, and, after them, the Bible teachers and elders of the church. It is their responsibility to baptize those who have become followers of Jesus Christ. The “Great Commission” is not to evangelize. It is to “make disciples.” How is this done? The process begins with evangelism which leads to conversion. Those converted are to be baptized and indoctrinated. The commission requires the teaching of baptism to the new converts and suggests that discipling is not complete without baptism. The practice of baptizing others, then, is based directly on the command of our Lord.
Here is an ordinance for the Christian church. If an ordinance is simply a ritual or a rite prescribed by our Lord, practiced in the early church, and expounded by the apostles in the epistles of the New Testament, then baptism is certainly an ordinance. It was given by our Lord (Matt. 28:18-20) It was widely practiced in the early church (Acts 2:41; 8:36-39; 9:18; 10:47; 16:33; 18:8; 19:5). It was expounded by the apostles in the epistles (Rom. 6:1-6; 1 Pet. 3:18; Heb. 6:1). The ordinance of baptism, then, is based directly on this command of the Lord."
Infant vs. believer's Baptism is something that I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on.
Here is a link to an understanding of believer's Baptism, which is probably what most on this board believe
Here's a brief explanation of infant Baptism from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), a very conservative Lutheran denomination:
Here's a much longer explanation of Baptism from The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), another very conservative Lutheran denomination:
Having been through LCMS, WELS and ELS (not ELCA), my perception is different. ELS was about the best of the bunch IMHO.I know from personal and professional experience that kids growing up in WELS and LCMS churches don't/shouldn't have this confusion. Before the ELCA became apostate, I could have said the same thing about them. I could see this happening very easily in a Calvinist or Wesleyan church. Difference being differences in specific doctrines and traditional (confessional) Lutheran Sunday School and Confirmation curriculum and materials. Of course, any church of any denomination that isn't teaching children Bible and doctrine, and why, is doing a huge disservice (and worse), and those children could very likely have warped/erroneous ideas about all sorts of things
I was about 3 when I attended my only Sunday School/Church ...until again when I was 25. All I remember was a flannel board used to tell a story about a boy who planted seeds and ended up with a wheelbarrow full of carrots. Oh well.This is why, if there is a choice of Bible study at a church, I try to go to one that is taught by a Pastor.
If I had kids, I'd look for one that had a real children's church led/taught by a real Pastor and real Sunday School (instead of play-time, recess, etc.) taught by well-trained Sunday School teachers. It was in Molly's Sunday School class in such a program that I came to saving faith at 3
Mine was a direct quote of an Ethiopian man, in scripture.Infant or Believers Baptism?
(Which both Rome and E.O. practice but is conspicuously absent in Scripture)
Interesting people bringing up their past. I have no 'past' with Christ. I came to know the Lord as an adult.Agreed, as in post# 24.
I had no Christian past as well, no Church, no Bible only an atheistic father and a secular/humanist schooling. Came to faith as an adult (25 yrs). Was lulled into the Lutheran Church by their doctrine of Justification by faith alone, before I left about 5 years later. Reason: I saw too many substituting the new birth for their Infant baptism. Their motto was 'remember your baptism' even though they had no interest in the things of God, nor understood the same.Interesting people bringing up their past. I have no 'past' with Christ. I came to know the Lord as an adult.
The organized church makes little sense to me, I decided it wasn't worth trying to decipher the many stances on water baptism that organized churches have. They all claim to be right. I've drawn everything from what scripture says about it, which is very little as you know. Aside from letting parents feel better, baptizing babies means you will have to dry them off.
Goodness, such ignorance. They need trained all over again with the basics. I suppose, in a way, if someone doesn't remember their baptism from above and their radical transformation, then it could be difficult for some to fully grasp everything.I had no Christian past as well, no Church, no Bible only an atheistic father and a secular/humanist schooling. Came to faith as an adult (25 yrs). Was lulled into the Lutheran Church by their doctrine of Justification by faith alone, before I left about 5 years later. Reason: I saw too many substituting the new birth for their Infant baptism. Their motto was 'remember your baptism' even though they had no interest in the things of God, nor understood the same.
Most, ..likely don't 'remember their baptism from above' or 'their radical transformation', simply because it never existed. I knew many 'pastors' who viewed their 'pastorship' as a vocation (think- $$$) rather than a ministry (think- hardship).Goodness, such ignorance. They need trained all over again with the basics. I suppose, in a way, if someone doesn't remember their baptism from above and their radical transformation, then it could be difficult for some to fully grasp everything.
Another ditto. My wife is/was old school Roman Catholic.My wife was raised a believer, catholic and then pentecostal, we've had radical differences in how we came to the knowledge of the truth, but we both got there.