Perhaps Othodox Need to Be Considered Catholic for Puposes of This Subforum

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
Infant or Believers Baptism?

(Which both Rome and E.O. practice but is conspicuously absent in Scripture)

Some Protestant denominations also practice infant Baptism. There is Scriptural support for it. Some Protestant denominations only practice believer's Baptism. There is Scriptural support for it. The difference is how Bible verses referencing children and nations are understood by different Christians/churches/denominations.

Most churches that only practice believer's Baptism do not require a member, who was Baptized as an infant, to get re-Baptized. Churches that do require re-Baptism generally also teach that Baptism is required for salvation. However, if this were the case, then people like the thief on the cross could not have been saved, but we know that he was saved because of what Jesus said.


According to Bible.org:
"There are few subjects more controversial, more divisive or more abused in Christendom today than the doctrine of baptism.
By many Christians baptism is relegated to a place of virtual insignificance. By others it is totally ignored as a nonessential.
By still others it is regarded as the entrance into church membership. Some esteem it to be an indispensable condition for one’s salvation.
But what do the scriptures teach?
The first thing which can be assuredly asserted from the Word of God is that it is a command of the Lord. This is The Basis For Baptism
To His small band of faithful followers the resurrected Christ, just prior to His ascension, said:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go, Therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Matt. 28:18-20

Here is a solemn responsibility for the apostles, and, after them, the Bible teachers and elders of the church. It is their responsibility to baptize those who have become followers of Jesus Christ. The “Great Commission” is not to evangelize. It is to “make disciples.” How is this done? The process begins with evangelism which leads to conversion. Those converted are to be baptized and indoctrinated. The commission requires the teaching of baptism to the new converts and suggests that discipling is not complete without baptism. The practice of baptizing others, then, is based directly on the command of our Lord.

Here is an ordinance for the Christian church. If an ordinance is simply a ritual or a rite prescribed by our Lord, practiced in the early church, and expounded by the apostles in the epistles of the New Testament, then baptism is certainly an ordinance. It was given by our Lord (Matt. 28:18-20) It was widely practiced in the early church (Acts 2:41; 8:36-39; 9:18; 10:47; 16:33; 18:8; 19:5). It was expounded by the apostles in the epistles (Rom. 6:1-6; 1 Pet. 3:18; Heb. 6:1). The ordinance of baptism, then, is based directly on this command of the Lord."
https://bible.org/article/believers-baptism


Infant vs. believer's Baptism is something that I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on.


Here is a link to an understanding of believer's Baptism, which is probably what most on this board believe
https://bible.org/article/believers-baptism


Here's a brief explanation of infant Baptism from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), a very conservative Lutheran denomination:
https://wels.net/faq/infant-baptism/


Here's a much longer explanation of Baptism from The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), another very conservative Lutheran denomination:
https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine#history
 

crossnote

fully dependent upon His grace
Some Protestant denominations also practice infant Baptism. There is Scriptural support for it. Some Protestant denominations only practice believer's Baptism. There is Scriptural support for it. The difference is how Bible verses referencing children and nations are understood by different Christians/churches/denominations.

Most churches that only practice believer's Baptism do not require a member, who was Baptized as an infant, to get re-Baptized. Churches that do require re-Baptism generally also teach that Baptism is required for salvation. However, if this were the case, then people like the thief on the cross could not have been saved, but we know that he was saved because of what Jesus said.


According to Bible.org:
"There are few subjects more controversial, more divisive or more abused in Christendom today than the doctrine of baptism.
By many Christians baptism is relegated to a place of virtual insignificance. By others it is totally ignored as a nonessential.
By still others it is regarded as the entrance into church membership. Some esteem it to be an indispensable condition for one’s salvation.
But what do the scriptures teach?
The first thing which can be assuredly asserted from the Word of God is that it is a command of the Lord. This is The Basis For Baptism
To His small band of faithful followers the resurrected Christ, just prior to His ascension, said:
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go, Therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
Matt. 28:18-20

Here is a solemn responsibility for the apostles, and, after them, the Bible teachers and elders of the church. It is their responsibility to baptize those who have become followers of Jesus Christ. The “Great Commission” is not to evangelize. It is to “make disciples.” How is this done? The process begins with evangelism which leads to conversion. Those converted are to be baptized and indoctrinated. The commission requires the teaching of baptism to the new converts and suggests that discipling is not complete without baptism. The practice of baptizing others, then, is based directly on the command of our Lord.

Here is an ordinance for the Christian church. If an ordinance is simply a ritual or a rite prescribed by our Lord, practiced in the early church, and expounded by the apostles in the epistles of the New Testament, then baptism is certainly an ordinance. It was given by our Lord (Matt. 28:18-20) It was widely practiced in the early church (Acts 2:41; 8:36-39; 9:18; 10:47; 16:33; 18:8; 19:5). It was expounded by the apostles in the epistles (Rom. 6:1-6; 1 Pet. 3:18; Heb. 6:1). The ordinance of baptism, then, is based directly on this command of the Lord."
https://bible.org/article/believers-baptism


Infant vs. believer's Baptism is something that I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on.


Here is a link to an understanding of believer's Baptism, which is probably what most on this board believe
https://bible.org/article/believers-baptism


Here's a brief explanation of infant Baptism from the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), a very conservative Lutheran denomination:
https://wels.net/faq/infant-baptism/


Here's a much longer explanation of Baptism from The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), another very conservative Lutheran denomination:
https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine#history
I know, I have been through the Churches on both sides of the Font. (Lutheran/Reformed/Calvary Chapels/Baptist etc)
The danger I have seen in the paedobaptist Churches, is that the children grow up with a warped concept of the new birth, often substituting their infant baptism as the new birth.

Regardless, in Scripture, believer's baptism is clearly taught/illustrated (e.g Acts 8:34-38) whereas infant baptism can only be conjectured (e.g. Acts 16:31-33).
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
I know from personal and professional experience that kids growing up in WELS and LCMS churches don't/shouldn't have this confusion. Before the ELCA became apostate, I could have said the same thing about them. I could see this happening very easily in a Calvinist or Wesleyan church. Difference being differences in specific doctrines and traditional (confessional) Lutheran Sunday School and Confirmation curriculum and materials. Of course, any church of any denomination that isn't teaching children Bible and doctrine, and why, is doing a huge disservice (and worse), and those children could very likely have warped/erroneous ideas about all sorts of things :cry
 

crossnote

fully dependent upon His grace
I know from personal and professional experience that kids growing up in WELS and LCMS churches don't/shouldn't have this confusion. Before the ELCA became apostate, I could have said the same thing about them. I could see this happening very easily in a Calvinist or Wesleyan church. Difference being differences in specific doctrines and traditional (confessional) Lutheran Sunday School and Confirmation curriculum and materials. Of course, any church of any denomination that isn't teaching children Bible and doctrine, and why, is doing a huge disservice (and worse), and those children could very likely have warped/erroneous ideas about all sorts of things :cry
Having been through LCMS, WELS and ELS (not ELCA), my perception is different. ELS was about the best of the bunch IMHO.
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
Some churches were better than others. Sadly, the individual church that had by far the best children's education was a congregation that later got sucked up into the ELCA when the merger of three synods happened. Probably the least good was the church I was confirmed at. I think the huge size of that church, plus the lack of ordained clergy involvement in the children's program, caused the weak program to begin with, but its absorption into the ELCA at the merger and then the progressive apostasy/heterodoxy of the ELCA :eek

Just as much (or more) care must be exercised in calling a REAL Pastor for the children's education program as calling the/a Senior Pastor.


I remember in my Confirmation class we had to read an OT and NT book and present a paper on each to the rest of the class. For my paper on Revelation, I had gone from start to finish and understood and described everything literally (as a Premillennialist would). The parent that was teaching the class didn't bat an eyelash when I presented the paper. Probably because he had no clue. A Pastor would have known :tapping Years later, I read the Late Great Planet Earth :lol My Confirmation paper pretty much agreed with Hal :lol

This is why, if there is a choice of Bible study at a church, I try to go to one that is taught by a Pastor.
If I had kids, I'd look for one that had a real children's church led/taught by a real Pastor and real Sunday School (instead of play-time, recess, etc.) taught by well-trained Sunday School teachers. It was in Molly's Sunday School class in such a program that I came to saving faith at 3 :smile

I really would like to find a good Lutheran Brethren church . . . they *lean* Premillennial :smile
 
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crossnote

fully dependent upon His grace
This is why, if there is a choice of Bible study at a church, I try to go to one that is taught by a Pastor.
If I had kids, I'd look for one that had a real children's church led/taught by a real Pastor and real Sunday School (instead of play-time, recess, etc.) taught by well-trained Sunday School teachers. It was in Molly's Sunday School class in such a program that I came to saving faith at 3 :smile
I was about 3 when I attended my only Sunday School/Church ...until again when I was 25. All I remember was a flannel board used to tell a story about a boy who planted seeds and ended up with a wheelbarrow full of carrots. Oh well.
Was Miss Molly a Pastor?
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
No. Back then, women weren't allowed to be Pastors. Women weren't allowed to read a Scripture lesson to the congregation, usher, etc., and girls weren't allowed to be Acolytes, etc. Women could be organists/other musicians, choir members, the choir director, Altar Guild, work in the nursery, prayer circles, missions, etc. Looking back, I'm guessing she might have been a Deaconness, as the male Sunday School teachers were all Deacons, Elders, or Pastors, and traditional Lutheranism historically had strong Deaconness programs. Molly was the only woman Sunday School teacher I remember ever having as a child. I don't even know if she was married or not since we just called her Molly.

The Pastor that led Children's Church supervised the Sunday School teachers and he would visit the classrooms, so we saw him a lot. He was so very, very patient with all of us kids. No one was allowed to laugh at anyone's mistake(s), questions, etc., or tease anyone about anything. Every week, during part of Children's Church, we did part of the liturgy, it was explained to us, and we didn't move on to the next part until all of the questions had been answered. Of course also Scripture reading, child-approriate sermon, and hymn(s). I really liked both Children's Church and Sunday School, and learned a lot. I understand now it was a lot more awesome than I realized at the time.

I often wished I knew Molly's last name so I could find her and thank her as an adult. I did contact the church once during the last couple of years, but no one knew :frown Maybe I could contact ELCA and see if there was a Molly on the Deaconness roster during that time for that church's old denomination.
 
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Infant or Believers Baptism?

(Which both Rome and E.O. practice but is conspicuously absent in Scripture)
Mine was a direct quote of an Ethiopian man, in scripture.

I know nothing of infant water dunking, you'll have to ask a Catholic. They've talked themselves into thinking it's a thing.
 
Agreed, as in post# 24.
Interesting people bringing up their past. I have no 'past' with Christ. I came to know the Lord as an adult.

The organized church makes little sense to me, I decided it wasn't worth trying to decipher the many stances on water baptism that organized churches have. They all claim to be right. I've drawn everything from what scripture says about it, which is very little as you know. Aside from letting parents feel better, baptizing babies means you will have to dry them off.
 

crossnote

fully dependent upon His grace
Interesting people bringing up their past. I have no 'past' with Christ. I came to know the Lord as an adult.

The organized church makes little sense to me, I decided it wasn't worth trying to decipher the many stances on water baptism that organized churches have. They all claim to be right. I've drawn everything from what scripture says about it, which is very little as you know. Aside from letting parents feel better, baptizing babies means you will have to dry them off.
I had no Christian past as well, no Church, no Bible only an atheistic father and a secular/humanist schooling. Came to faith as an adult (25 yrs). Was lulled into the Lutheran Church by their doctrine of Justification by faith alone, before I left about 5 years later. Reason: I saw too many substituting the new birth for their Infant baptism. Their motto was 'remember your baptism' even though they had no interest in the things of God, nor understood the same.
 
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I had no Christian past as well, no Church, no Bible only an atheistic father and a secular/humanist schooling. Came to faith as an adult (25 yrs). Was lulled into the Lutheran Church by their doctrine of Justification by faith alone, before I left about 5 years later. Reason: I saw too many substituting the new birth for their Infant baptism. Their motto was 'remember your baptism' even though they had no interest in the things of God, nor understood the same.
Goodness, such ignorance. They need trained all over again with the basics. I suppose, in a way, if someone doesn't remember their baptism from above and their radical transformation, then it could be difficult for some to fully grasp everything.

I'm glad it happened later for me, the differences were there, the testimony really organic.

My wife was raised a believer, catholic and then pentecostal, we've had radical differences in how we came to the knowledge of the truth, but we both got there. My wife said she was water baptized many times every summer on the lake. When they saw people gathering they just got in the crowd. Surely she is oversaved.
 
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crossnote

fully dependent upon His grace
Goodness, such ignorance. They need trained all over again with the basics. I suppose, in a way, if someone doesn't remember their baptism from above and their radical transformation, then it could be difficult for some to fully grasp everything.
Most, ..likely don't 'remember their baptism from above' or 'their radical transformation', simply because it never existed. I knew many 'pastors' who viewed their 'pastorship' as a vocation (think- $$$) rather than a ministry (think- hardship).
My wife was raised a believer, catholic and then pentecostal, we've had radical differences in how we came to the knowledge of the truth, but we both got there.
Another ditto. My wife is/was old school Roman Catholic.
 
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