My Live-Stream FBC Springfield (mikhen7)

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
I wish I would have grew up under men like @Tall Timbers, @ItIsFinished!, @mikhen7, @Andy C, @mattfivefour, @Sojourner414, and many others here. Forgive me if I ever seem rough around the edges. I grew up under wolves and monstrous men.
Eric, no matter the situation you grew up under, God is the master at molding and shaping us into who He wants us to be. He is doing a wonderful work in you! We cannot change the past but with God we need not worry about our future. :)
 
I wish I would have grew up under men like @Tall Timbers, @ItIsFinished!, @mikhen7, @Andy C, @mattfivefour, @Sojourner414, and many others here. Forgive me if I ever seem rough around the edges. I grew up under wolves and monstrous men.
No Eric; like you, I grew up with rough people and a monster as well. I'm no one's hero, saint, preacher or much anything else. But the One who saved me and began to heal me is the One whom deserves all praise. As for me, I was "The Thing That Should Not Be" before the Lord had mercy upon me.

All of us have rough edges the Lord is still working on bro: :hug :hug :hug you're in good company. :)
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
John does a Great job with his Bible studies on Weds. Years of teaching under his belt. :)
I just LOVED what he was teaching. George and I just finished watching the DVD Patterns of Evidence in which Tim Mahoney examines the evidence for the Bible in the Exodus account. It was wonderful and it was just those passages. Mahoney brought up that obscure scribe that was complaining about the plagues -- but it's about 200 years before the archeologists want to date Exodus. Wonderful DVD and I was remembering that scribe-- I'm sure he is aware of the material.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Excellent film! Actually, we are going to play that film this Saturday night for our movie night. John just asked if I had the DVD. I tipped him off on it last year. The next in that series is awesome as well. The Moses Controversy, I believe it is called. I am glad you were blessed!!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Excellent film! Actually, we are going to play that film this Saturday night for our movie night. John just asked if I had the DVD. I tipped him off on it last year. The next in that series is awesome as well. The Moses Controversy, I believe it is called. I am glad you were blessed!!
I have to get that next one. Loved this first one.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
We are always learning and being encouraged by God. I had so much more to say. Look at Hosea, who prophesied during the 8th century near to when Assyria took the Northern Ten (Israel) captive and scattered them to the winds in 721 BC. In Hosea 8 there are some interesting things written concerning the future of the Northern kingdom and God's disdain for the golden calves of Samaria. One of the terms referred to is "king of princes" lower case. As I read this in the context of Israel being swept away by Assyria and not returning to the land, I thought about vs. 10 which states they would be regathered and suffer a little because of the burden or proclamation of the king of princes. Now some translations seem to have taken some liberty to make it sound as if they will be gathered from within Israel or "Rounded up" and then suffer under the King and leaders. Clearly not the intent of the Hebrew IMO, but it makes the verse contemporary with 8th century events and pushes any future aspects away.

Here is the NKJV:
10 Yes, though they have hired among the nations, Now I will gather them; And they shall sorrow a little, Because of the burden of the king of princes.

HCSB:
10 Even though they hire lovers among the nations, I will now round them up, and they will begin to decrease in number under the burden of the king and leaders.

Personally, I think it is eschatological, and may reference a regathering in the last days where they may suffer under the proclamation of the AC. The regathering itself, is an act of mercy by God on the nation of Israel. Pink and some others agree, but 95% do not. So what do you think? Read vss. 1-10 carefully.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
We are always learning and being encouraged by God. I had so much more to say. Look at Hosea, who prophesied during the 8th century near to when Assyria took the Northern Ten (Israel) captive and scattered them to the winds in 721 BC. In Hosea 8 there are some interesting things written concerning the future of the Northern kingdom and God's disdain for the golden calves of Samaria. One of the terms referred to is "king of princes" lower case. As I read this in the context of Israel being swept away by Assyria and not returning to the land, I thought about vs. 10 which states they would be regathered and suffer a little because of the burden or proclamation of the king of princes.

Here is the NKJV:
10 Yes, though they have hired among the nations, Now I will gather them; And they shall sorrow a little, Because of the burden of the king of princes.

HCSB:
10 Even though they hire lovers among the nations, I will now round them up, and they will begin to decrease in number under the burden of the king and leaders.

Personally, I think it is eschatological, and may reference a regathering in the last days where they may suffer under the proclamation of the AC. The regathering itself, is an act of mercy by God on the nation of Israel. Pink and some others agree, but 95% do not. So what do you think? Read vss. 1-10 carefully.
Ok so I read this last night offline, and oh MY! Sent me right quick into Hosea. Exciting. Yes it's eschatological. The whole book is an outline of history in advance beginning with the idolatry of the Northern kingdom, and the diaspora under the Assyrians of old, but then it looks forward to the future millennial reign of Christ, the 3rd day in which Israel is healed after 2 days of terrible times-- 2 millennia of wandering, repentance and a millennia of healing. Sprinkled throughout are references to Assyrian kings.

Now some translations seem to have taken some liberty to make it sound as if they will be gathered from within Israel or "Rounded up" and then suffer under the King and leaders. Clearly not the intent of the Hebrew IMO, but it makes the verse contemporary with 8th century events and pushes any future aspects away.
First off, YES! It is annoying reading those who like to brush aside any possibility that prophecy would have both a near and far fulfillment. They do a disservice when they read their own ideas back into the text. So discouraging when I read a commentary on something that says in effect- Oh yeah, that was all fulfilled when the Assyrians motored thru and destroyed everything they got their paws on. Completely missing the point that prophecy often has a near and a far fulfillment. And completely missing the potential for a far fulfillment.

So when I see indications that there is a far fulfillment particularly the "in that day" wording or references to the Millennial Reign I am happily able to see possibilities of future fulfillment. And in chapter 6 v1-2 is definitely one of those. The 'third day". Revives the Jews after 2 days and will raise them up on the 3 rd day.

Chapter 8, right next to this is vs 4, setting up kings/princes but not by God. To me that speaks of a modern democracy as well as the kings who ruled the Northern Kingdom.

---- In fact it fits a modern democracy even more than the northern kings. And suggests that instead of King Jesus, they'll go for one who comes in his own name as their ruler. The false messiah.

Ch 8 Verse 5b asks an interesting rhetorical question "How long will they be incapable of innocence?" referencing the work of craftsmen creating idols. But looking at the context, this was given before they had the offer of being made innocent thru Christ. So it feels to me like Paul talking about the blindness that descended onto the Jews for a time that Gentiles might be grafted in. How long? the clue to the answer is given back in Ch 6 v 1-2 with that third day bit. 2 millennia of rejection and judgment followed by a millennia of healing.

Ch 8 Verse 7 is that often quoted :For they sow the wind and they reap the whirlwind. To me that speaks of the covenant with Death and Hades that they will sign onto with the AC. It had fulfillment in the past, the near fulfillment but the greater fulfillment is still yet to come.

Ch 8 V 8 is talking about the dispersion. The beginnings of which happened then to the North, then the South, then after AD 70. In each diaspora, not all came back.

Ch 8 v 10 OOOOO there's a lot in there!!!!

In Hosea 8 there are some interesting things written concerning the future of the Northern kingdom and God's disdain for the golden calves of Samaria. One of the terms referred to is "king of princes" lower case. As I read this in the context of Israel being swept away by Assyria and not returning to the land, I thought about vs. 10 which states they would be regathered and suffer a little because of the burden or proclamation of the king of princes.
I hadn't noticed that before, but YES you are right. Ok I was remembering one of the names for the AC is "the Assyrian" and I'm fascinated by that possibility that this is the one Hosea is referring to. "king of princes" which would fit the little horn that rises up. And in chapt 11:5 there is another reference to the king of Assyria, and unlike ch 10 v 6 it doesn't refer to him by name.

So v 10 goes from the diaspora in v 8 straight into the regathering (Ezek 37-- the dry bones, regathering in unbelief) my NASB says Chapter 8:10 "Even though they hire allies among the nations, Now I will gather them up; And they will begin to diminish Because of the burden of the king of princes."

Mike, to my eyes that speaks of a time span in which God regathers, (1948) in spite of their reliance on allies among the nations (which is how they were in 48 and are now) then jumps forward to a period of weakening and diminishing.

The cause is the burden of the king of princes that you bring up. If that is who I think that is, it's the AC

We aren't there yet so we aren't seeing the diminishing process yet, which will take place if this is a cause and effect, AFTER they sign onto that agreement with Death and Hades.

AND THAT is VERY VERY Interesting because this Hosea 8:10 verse ALSO makes me think of Isaiah 28 where Israel will diminish due to their treaty with Death and Hades. That whole passage is reminiscent of this diminishment you are seeing in Hosea chapter 8 v 10.

Hosea 8 V 11-13 go back to the past, the exile in Assyria and their return to Egypt.

But chapter 11 v 11 speaks of that return in the final days. The regathering again. Exile then regathering are repeated themes. Israel's faithlessness vs God's faithfulness. 11:5 has a reference to the king of Assyria that I mentioned above. Not by name. (while 10 v 6 mentions King Jareb that earlier Assyrian by name)

Chapter 13:10 - 11 has an interesting comment that might relate to that king of princes as well as reference to Saul as well as the kings of the Northern kingdom. Jesus said in John 5:43 they rejected Him, but one who comes in his own name they'll welcome.

The context thru out is the deserved judgment on Israel but the book starts with the millennial promise of future forgiveness and blessing, and ends in chapter 14 when apostasy is done away with, and God's blessing is poured out. In the middle bits of judgment-- this Assyrian theme, and a king of Assyria pop up a lot.

At the end the repentance states ASSYRIA WILL NOT SAVE US. Why would they say that unless that final Assyrian -- of the final 7 years of Daniel, who is the one Israel signs up with for peace and security, is none other than the AC.

It makes no sense for Israel in modern times to repent of making deals with ancient Assyria, unless the AC is the one in view here as the king of princes.

The keys are in Chapter 2 v 10-11 speaking of God's end point in all this judgment and Chapter 3 verse 4-5. It comes after Hosea is told to go redeem her (she's now in slavery in the marketplace) and the explanation is in v 4-5.

4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

this our time in which we are living right now, before the final 7 years, Israel having lived many days without king or prince or sacrifice.

And the end point is in chapter 14 where repentance brings blessing in the millenial reign of Christ. So it HAS to be eschatalogical in spots.

Hosea 14:2-3

2Take words with you
and return to the Lord.
Say to him:
“Forgive all our sins
and receive us graciously,
that we may offer the fruit of our lips.
3 Assyria cannot save us;
we will not mount warhorses.
We will never again say ‘Our gods’
to what our own hands have made,
for in you the fatherless find compassion.”

So again, why Assyria in this repentance? Other nations like Egypt that were enemies and later allies that shouldn't have been relied on, are not mentioned. So something about Assyria and it's leader is important in that Israel must have just recently tried to ask Assyria to save them. The Assyrian being the leader.

I'll finish with Isaiah 10:5-23 talking about that final Assyrian with regard to the end times. V 20 & 21 point to the end times, the final Assyrian even though there was that past fulfillment. But v 20 & 21 point to the future.

Isaiah 10:5-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
Arrogant Assyria Also Judged

5 “Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand is My indignation.
6 I will send him against an ungodly nation,
And against the people of My wrath
I will give him charge,
To seize the spoil, to take the prey,
And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
7 Yet he does not mean so,
Nor does his heart think so;
But it is in his heart to destroy,
And cut off not a few nations.
8 For he says,
Are not my princes altogether kings?
9 Is not Calno like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad?
Is not Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose carved images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 As I have done to Samaria and her idols,
Shall I not do also to Jerusalem and her idols?’ ”

12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, that He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his haughty looks.”


13 For he says:

“By the strength of my hand I have done it,
And by my wisdom, for I am prudent;
Also I have removed the boundaries of the people,
And have robbed their treasuries;
So I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man.
14 My hand has found like a nest the riches of the people,
And as one gathers eggs that are left,
I have gathered all the earth;
And there was no one who moved his wing,
Nor opened his mouth with even a peep.”

15 Shall the ax boast itself against him who chops with it?
Or shall the saw exalt itself against him who saws with it?
As if a rod could wield itself against those who lift it up,
Or as if a staff could lift up, as if it were not wood!
16 Therefore the Lord, the Lord of hosts,
Will send leanness among his fat ones;
And under his glory
He will kindle a burning
Like the burning of a fire.
17 So the Light of Israel will be for a fire,
And his Holy One for a flame;
It will burn and devour
His thorns and his briers in one day.


18 And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field,
Both soul and body;
And they will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19 Then the rest of the trees of his forest
Will be so few in number
That a child may write them.

20 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.


22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.


23 For the Lord God of hosts
Will make a determined end
In the midst of all the land.

Hmm, I should make it very clear that by mentioning this passage of Isaiah and the Assyrian references with regard to the AC I am NOT in any way suggesting an Islamic AC. That is not where this passage should take anyone. The people of the prince to come that Daniel refers to in the destruction of Jerusalem took some of their troops from Syria and Turkey and Macedonia in addition to Rome. Syria, northern Iraq and areas of Turkey could easily be considered as parts of ancient Assyria. People born there or descended from there can be found all over Europe now. There are multiple ways to look at this.
 
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mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Margery, we think alike on so many levels. The passages in Isaiah that you quote and refer to I also read yesterday. Wow. Yes the theme of the "Assyrian" "Asshur" and other titles all refer eschatological to that end time king in whom they will try to find peace with. It is a broken record with ancient Israel and even now in current times, that the Nation seeks other leaders to come to their aid. And yes, Hosea has some of the most clear references to the regathering on the last days and the coming Millennial. I am so glad you brought those out.

In reference to King Jareb, I thought it was interesting that the name means: King Jareb - A King who will contend, also NRSV, The great king

A couple of other references to AC in Hosea can be found in 10:15 (king of Israel) (near and far)

"Thus it shall be done to you, O Bethel,
Because of your great wickedness.
At dawn the king of Israel
Shall be cut off utterly."

AND

Hosea 12:7 (NKJV)

“A cunning Canaanite! --> Literal Hebrew "K'anan" and also means trafficker - Merchant
Deceitful scales are in his hand; --> Perfect picture of the lies told by AC, on the one balance protector and the other weightier balance he is oppressor.
He loves to oppress."

When you look at the seal judgments of Rev 6, you see AC on the white horse (picture of deception as a counterfeit) followed by the Red Horse of war which results from lies and peace proposals that fail, and then the Black Horse bearing the deceitful balances in which AC promises prosperity but only brings famine, and finally the Pale Horse of death and Hades which is really a reaping of the aggregate results of what following the Worthless Shepherd (Zech 11) will bring to the world and Israel. --> The seals are all apart of what God allows to come upon the earth because the world is entranced by the propositions and proposals of the Worthless Shepherd

Zechariah 11:15–17 (NKJV)
15 And the LORD said to me, “Next, take for yourself the implements of a foolish shepherd. 16 For indeed I will raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for those who are cut off, nor seek the young, nor heal those that are broken, nor feed those that still stand. But he will eat the flesh of the fat and tear their hooves in pieces.

17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
Who leaves the flock!
A sword shall be against his arm
And against his right eye;
His arm shall completely wither,
And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

All of the things you have brought out of Hosea in your study above have connections in all of the prophets. This is wisdom. This is the light of discernment that God gives to all those who are willing to read His word in the Spirit, with the whole picture the Bible presents in view.

Going back to Hosea 12 we read:

Hosea 12:7–14 (NKJV)

7 “A cunning Canaanite!
Deceitful scales are in his hand;
He loves to oppress.

8 And Ephraim said, --> Ephraim is a euphemism for Israel. Here they are deceived
‘Surely I have become rich,
I have found wealth for myself;
In all my labors
They shall find in me no iniquity that is sin.’ --> Really????

9 “But I am the LORD your God, --> Here God sets the record straight - He is saying, like I led in the past, so I will in the future. I am the ONE to trust
Ever since the land of Egypt;
I will again make you dwell in tents,
As in the days of the appointed feast.
10 I have also spoken by the prophets,
And have multiplied visions;
I have given symbols through the witness of the prophets.” --> This is where Spiritual insight and wisdom steps in - we can see and understand what God is trying to tell us through the symbols in the prophets because we seek to understand God's meaning not one that benefits us. i.e. Osteen

11 Though Gilead has idols—
Surely they are vanity—
Though they sacrifice bulls in Gilgal,
Indeed their altars shall be heaps in the furrows of the field. --> Futility in not following the Lord in truth and faith.

12 Jacob fled to the country of Syria;
Israel served for a spouse,
And for a wife he tended sheep.
13 By a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt,
And by a prophet he was preserved. --> I love the way this passage is worded!
14 Ephraim provoked Him to anger most bitterly;
Therefore his Lord will leave the guilt of his bloodshed upon him,
And return his reproach upon him. --> Near and again, far -> Tribulation to come

The Bible is so awesome. God shows us what is good to trust and follow (Him and His wisdom). It is sad that so many fail to seek Him as the only true Provider.
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
“A cunning Canaanite! --> Literal Hebrew "K'anan" and also means trafficker - Merchant
Deceitful scales are in his hand; --> Perfect picture of the lies told by AC, on the one balance protector and the other weightier balance he is oppressor.
He loves to oppress."
Wow, thank you Mike, so much packed into each verse! It's bigger on the inside than the outside to quote CSLewis about a baby in a stable born 2000 years and a bit back.
 
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