"My eyes are open to what's wrong with the church"

Anewcreationinjesus

Well-Known Member
Had a very sad online discussion with an old friend from youth group last night...

He asked me if I was in a church...

I explained no, because I haven't yet found a church that teaches sound doctrine locally... He said he believes in restoration of five fold ministry and that I should read Acts 2 and that I really need to be in fellowship... (He believes he is an apostle and has started an APEST church plant)... He said his eyes are wide open to what's wrong with the church (ie he's a restorationalist)...

I replied about Bethel, false teaching, ecumenicalism, "spirituality" and signs of the times like the temple institute... I said Jesus is still building his church and the gospel has never lost its power... I mentioned Titus 1:9 about the importance of standing in sound doctrine....I also sent him Andy Woods latest pastors point of view about the signs of the times including mockery of the second advent, one world religion, "spirituality" etc...

He didn't reply to any of my points about false teaching which is sad... Prayers for him would be appreciated, am praying specifically for someone in his peer group of church leaders to have blinkers removed and be able to warn him about NAR etc....
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Praying for him to receive the gift of discernment as he studies the Word of God.

Proverbs 2:1-5
My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
 

Anewcreationinjesus

Well-Known Member
I know many of us on here are in a similar predicament... It says it all when Google searching for a sound Bible Church locally earlier... An NAR church popped up... Erm, no thanks!!!

It's not that I don't want to become part of a local church... Its just I haven't yet heard of a sound verse by verse one and I wouldn't want to be part of a group to then have to then become unpart of it!!
 

Anewcreationinjesus

Well-Known Member
Praying for him to receive the gift of discernment as he studies the Word of God.

Proverbs 2:1-5
My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
All prayer appreciated... I hope he has a day to truly see...
 

Luke12

Well-Known Member
The local church I have attended for the last 20 years continues to go off the rails. I could stand the loud music but I have friends who cannot stand it. After all the church has earplugs in the back of the sanctuary for anyone to use. Then there is the smoke generator which added an effect.....what effect I don't know. Then they put in spotlights a couple months ago. Ok that wasn't really annoying. Then they recently enabled those spotlights (probably 6 of them) to swivel around and point at the congregation. I then went up to the balcony one time and the spotlights even shine in one's eyes up there. One time they closed the balcony and said they did that to encourage people to stay downstairs where its more cozy.

Then 2 weeks ago it was decided to turn the church into a "movie theatre and game room presumably to attract members.
When you went in it resembled the inside of a movie theater with video games like Pac-man, Space invaders, and even those auto-racing games where you have a steering wheel and a large screen in front of you. They had a popcorn machine and gave out bags of popcorn to everybody. I sat in the congregation for 10 minutes and left it was ridiculous. The sermon consisted of showing clips of those "Pixar" movies similar to "Toy-story" and applying verses to those clips.

I did go to a good bible church last Sunday night but it was a concert with Joshua Aaron in Delta Pa called Calvary Bible Church. I would go there every Sunday but it's an hour and 15 minutes away.
These are signs of the times...some friends that go to the local church here just joke about the stuff going on.

Edit to add: That's no exaggeration about the local church ….one would think he were at a rock concert.... not church......with some animated movie clips thrown in...…….honestly....where does it go from there ?
 
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ByGod'sGrace

Well-Known Member
What happened to pews, hymns, one organ, and the Bible. The church doesn't need more than people coming together and hearing sound teaching of the Word. All this reel-them-in with worldly stuff is what makes people come to church to be entertained instead of fed. My goodness. What times we are living in!!
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
I heard a funny but sad comment that many a church has forgotten about feeding the sheep and now they are in the business of entertaining the goats.

There are faithful shepherds who do still feed their sheep, but they are fewer and harder to find now. There is a genuine famine for the Word of God across the earth, and it's really jarring to see it happen in countries that a few short generations ago were sending missionaries around the world to preach the gospel of salvation.

But I also think from what I hear from some of the faithful shepherds, that they get savagely knocked about for their faithfulness to God and the Bible.

Thanking the Lord for the Internet and YouTube, which has at least put us under some good preaching again and in fellowship across the globe with like minded believers.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
You have to take the good with the bad.
That is NOT scriptural. What is scriptural is to be a Berean, and search out the SCRIPTURES to see if the teaching lines up with the Word of God. It is a favourite tactic of cults and heretical movements to tell their members to "chew the meat and spit out the bones" or essentially to absorb a little sprinkle of bad with the good.

That is absolutely WRONG. A little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump or loaf. The point of Galatians 5 where that verse is found is Paul combats some false teaching that was coming in small, but like leaven it was spreading thru the church and bringing them back under the law.

We are to AVOID sin, bad teaching and anything that sets itself up in opposition to God.
2 Corinthians 10:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Jude and 2 Peter 2 are VERY VERY strong on tthe reality that we MUST spot and avoid false teachers and their teachings. I hope I don't have to quote them to prove the point.

Jesus warned us in the very same chapter the world likes to quote about not judging, Jesus says we ARE to inspect the fruits of a teacher-- a false prophet coming in like a sheep, but inwardly they are wolves.

Matthew 7:15-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


Be a Berean as Paul advised here:
Acts 17:11 New International Version (NIV)
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

AT NO POINT are we EVER told to consume bad teaching as inevitable along with the good. We are warned to DISCERN and to AVOID false teachers and their teachings.

Hopefully that will clarify things.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
We are all growing in Christ ...and of course not perfect. We are to help each other and build each other up in our growth in Christ.

However, the second most talked about subject in the New Testament (after the Gospel) is to watch out for false teachers and false teaching (not imperfect Christians growing in Christ). Anything that distorts God's word. It's so serious that the subject merited much warning as Paul did, for three years. He was so concerned that he shed tears:

So guard yourselves and God’s people. Feed and shepherd God’s flock—his church, purchased with his own blood—over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as leaders. I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock. Even some men from your own group will rise up and distort the truth in order to draw a following. Watch out! Remember the three years I was with you—my constant watch and care over you night and day, and my many tears for you. Acts 20:28-31


And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. Rom 16:17-18
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
I don't think I've ever attended a church where I agreed with everything the pastor (or denomination) taught, but felt that if it wasn't a salvation issue (or something serious like a prosperity gospel thing), then it wasn't worth kicking up a fuss over. There are too many people who whine about the music style, or where the trash cans are placed (seriously, this happened). I know someone may have seriously passionate views about things of scripture (that's why we have a bazillion different denominations out there), but if the main tenants of Christianity are found in a church, a person should be able to receive teaching and give service and participate in the body of Christ.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
every church has its problems,
That I agree with. Nor are minor issues something to divide over. Heresy on the other hand IS.
every church likely has some form of heresy
This I completely disagree with and it's what I was responding to above. Here was your first statement that bothered me.
I believe there is heresy in every church. You have to take the good with the bad.
So you believe there is HERESY in EVERY church? And consequently we have to take the good with the bad, which appears that you mean a little heresy is just fine.

That belief that we must accept HERESY as no big thing is a major problem.

Perhaps your definition of heresy is different than mine.

By HERESY I don't mean simple differences of opinion that have resulted in denominational lines of division. By HERESY I mean a departure from the foundational doctrines of Salvation for example. All Christian denominations believe in the Trinity for example. Those who don't have accepted a heresy that dates back to the early church where it was exposed and dealt with. In fact that was why the creeds are written. To oppose heretical teachings that were (and still are) tearing people away from the Gospel for their Salvation.

I think you mean differences of opinion while I'm talking departure from the foundational truths that are part of essential doctrines such as Salvation, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth of Christ, the fact of Christ being 100% human man, and 100% God at all times after the incarnation, the Substitutionary Atonement of the Cross, and so forth.

you seem to be referring to things like how often we take communion, or how we baptize people.

Here is what Got Questions has to say about it, and hopefully that will help.

Regarding biblical Christianity, what is heresy? Second Peter 2:1 says, “There will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”
From this verse, we see that heresy is anything that denies the teaching of Jesus. In 1 Corinthians 11:19, Paul takes the church to task for having heresies among them—heresies that led to schisms in the body. These verses touch on both aspects of what constitutes heresy in the church: denying the doctrines God has given, and dividing the body He has created. Both of these are dangerous, destructive actions that are soundly rebuked by Scripture. See also 1 John 4:1-6; 1 Timothy 1:3-6; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; and Jude 1.

How does the Bible deal with heresy? Titus 3:10 says, “A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject” (KJV). Other translations say “divisive person,” “factious man,” and “person who stirs up division.” When a person in the church departs from biblical teaching, the correct response is to, first, try to correct him, but if he refuses to listen after two warnings, have nothing more to do with him. Excommunication is implied. The truth of Christ will unify believers (John 17:22-23), but heresy, by its very nature, cannot peacefully co-exist with the truth.

Of course, not every disagreement in the church is heresy. Having a different opinion is not wrong, but when the opinion is divisive or maintained in defiance of clear biblical teaching, it becomes heretical. The apostles themselves disagreed at times (see Acts 15:36-41), and Peter once had to be rebuked for divisive and legalistic behavior (Galatians 2:11-14). But, praise the Lord, through an attitude of humility and submission to the God of truth, the apostles worked through their disagreements and set an example for us.

How do we guard against heresy? Philippians 2:2-3 is a good starting point: “Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” As we submit ourselves to the authority of God’s Word and deal with one another in love and respect, divisions and heresies will be diminished.
 

Geoff DEAN

Member
Had a very sad online discussion with an old friend from youth group last night...

He asked me if I was in a church...

I explained no, because I haven't yet found a church that teaches sound doctrine locally... He said he believes in restoration of five fold ministry and that I should read Acts 2 and that I really need to be in fellowship... (He believes he is an apostle and has started an APEST church plant)... He said his eyes are wide open to what's wrong with the church (ie he's a restorationalist)...

I replied about Bethel, false teaching, ecumenicalism, "spirituality" and signs of the times like the temple institute... I said Jesus is still building his church and the gospel has never lost its power... I mentioned Titus 1:9 about the importance of standing in sound doctrine....I also sent him Andy Woods latest pastors point of view about the signs of the times including mockery of the second advent, one world religion, "spirituality" etc...

He didn't reply to any of my points about false teaching which is sad... Prayers for him would be appreciated, am praying specifically for someone in his peer group of church leaders to have blinkers removed and be able to warn him about NAR etc....
My wife and I are Worship leaders and preach about once per month in Uniting churches and it is increasingly becoming difficult to be even included on the inter church roster. We major on Biblically supported and Pre-Tribulation themes. It's been apparent that the Holy Spirit reinforced this as well for my primary topic in other places also, like channel entitled GraceandTruth on the disqus.com website. And mockers abound there as well. Messy church is now popular where hymns and Godly worship is almost absent. It grieves both of us as we see numbers dropping. But what grieves both of us more is the heresy of National Assembly and those Theology teachers in large city churches who are posting that if we believe Holy scripture as inerrant and inspired then we are committing blasphemy. August issue of Crosslight. Where do we fit in. I can't sit in pews and hear God's word maligned?
 
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