Max Lucado and the Church of Christ

It is my understanding that the Church of Christ believes in a works-based salvation, and people must be baptized to be saved. You believe on Jesus to be saved, but you can lose your salvation if you don't behave yourself. It always sounded kind of Catholic to me because I was told that you need to be sure you had all of your sin confessed before you died or you would go to hell.

I don't know about Max Lucado's personal church, but the Church of Christ in my home town does not allow any musical instruments in their building.


REPLY: The Church of Christ does NOT believe in a work based salvation. Totally Wrong, as most of the comments in this forum are. The Church of Christ believes soley in what the Bible says.
 
Does anyone know anything about the church of Christ? Max Lucado is a pastor of Oak hills Chruch formally the Oak Hills church of christ. We are looking for a new pastor and one of the men who applied says Max Lucado has been most influential in his spiritual development. So I am looking for help on the chruch of christ because I have heard not so good things about their doctrines. Thanks,

Church of Christ believes only in what the Bible tells us so you are hearing things that are false.
 

araj54

Well-Known Member
Welcome to the board Church of Christ Member.
I haven't re-read this thread, but I will say that painting individual denominations with a broad brush is, imo, never a good idea. Each congregation is generally only as biblically sound as their pastor. I saw my original Presbyterian church go from biblically sound to way off track in one pastoral change. It seems all the denominations are being infitrated with bad seeds these days and it is up to the elders and the congregations to use discernment, especially when pastoral changes take place.
 

bblnizflln

Revelation 18:2
A man I worked with who was an ordained minister in CoC actually told me all of this stuff was true. All the stuff he used to say would leave one wondering who could possibly be saved? He gave me a long list of requirements for salvation. (I have misplaced it in a couple of moves since.) It was extremely works based. He felt like he hadn't done his job on a given Sunday if people didn't feel like they were going to hell after listening to him. He also believed you had to be part of CoC or you were not saved.

Also my wife was raised in the same kind of CoC in another state years before. Her parents couldn't have an organ at their wedding. She was not allowed to listen to contemporary Christian music growing up. She never went to a school dance. No instruments were permitted. She said that every Sunday was some kind of guilt trip and that tithing was a big one. Later when her parents had marital problems the church shunned them and refused to help (what a wonderful Christian way to help a brother and sister in the Lord). She tried to go to one years later in another state and that week happened to be tithing. She said she was done with them. When we visited with some of her family several years ago we went with her brother and family who were attending one. It might as well have been a funeral service. They also mentioned they were the only true church at which point I put my home church at the time as First Baptist with a smile.

As for Max Lucado I haven't really read much of his writings so I don't know his stance on these things. So I can't comment on that.
All in all I would not care to darken one of their doorsteps again.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
Don't know where you got your information on the Church of Christ, but it is 95 percent wrong. And as for instruments, my Church of Christ has piano, organ, 4 guitars, drums, harmonica and keyboard.

I have read so many remarks on this forum that are in error, that it would take me forever to answer all of them, but just wanted the people who are interested to know that you should ask a Church of Christ member, before believing the false remarks printed by members of other churches. If anyone wants to ask me questions about the true beliefs, you mail email and I will be glad to answer.

And PLEASE be aware that the the Church of Christ DOES have instruments. There is a small segment of them that don't but the majority do. Our church has a piano, organ, 4 guitars, harmonica, drums, and a keyboard. Our music is mixed. One service has the older music and one service has contemporary.
Not true. The majority do NOT. I have attended a few of those. They are legalistic to the extreme ... in accordance with doctrine posted earlier in this thread. And they are indeed preterist in theology. That said, i have also attended a Church of Christ (Instrumental) and found it to be a wonderful experience, both doctrinally and experientially.

As someone commented earlier, it is a mistake to lump all CoC's together under one umbrella. They are all independent. That said, most indeed are legalistic and erroneous in many key doctrines, including the necessity of baptism in salvation.
 

Leslie

Well-Known Member
It is my understanding that the Church of Christ believes in a works-based salvation, and people must be baptized to be saved. You believe on Jesus to be saved, but you can lose your salvation if you don't behave yourself. It always sounded kind of Catholic to me because I was told that you need to be sure you had all of your sin confessed before you died or you would go to hell.

I don't know about Max Lucado's personal church, but the Church of Christ in my home town does not allow any musical instruments in their building.

I have many, many books of max lucado and I listen to him on the internet, I don't know all of the Church of Christ beliefs, But I do know that max teaches that we are saved by grace not works. hope this helps. check out max lucado's website.
 

mbrown1219

Heaven's Stables
Leslie, I personally like Max Lucado's books. I believe he is part of the body of Christ. Only God knows his heart, but I *think* his heart is right with God.

I grew up in the CofC and really did think that the preacher was implying he was perfect, and we should be perfect.

That also is just my opinion.

I can say that I still don't feel comfortable dancing with anyone except my husband, and since I don't have a husband I don't dance! The only music I listen to these days is Praise & Worship, and I have learned to enjoy that with musical accompanyment to the full!

I no longer attend a CofC. They (the ones I attended) did not teach grace through faith and I find myself still trying to overcome some of their "legalistic rules" in my life.
 

guru03

Baby Christian
I'd say that CoC is a cult. A professor that my brother had and/or a guest speaker gre up CoC and they seem to have abandoned Christianity. Avoid like the plague. Don't walk but run as fast as you can while taking as many people with you as possible from the CoC if you attend a CoC church. Sounds legalistic from what I know and legalism definitely turns many away from God.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
Vicki is CoC. She believes in salvation by Grace thru faith. And she believes in music in the assembly. She and I disagree over many things. But I have no doubt she is saved and loves Jesus just as much as any of us do.

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
Vicki is CoC. She believes in salvation by Grace thru faith. And she believes in music in the assembly. She and I disagree over many things. But I have no doubt she is saved and loves Jesus just as much as any of us do.

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk

I might add that while I disagree completely with many things the CoC teaches, I do not think the group rises to the level of a cult. First, they have no central figure or organization. Each assembly is autonomous. Second their sole guide is Christ and His Word ... though their overly literal and often misguided interpretations have led them into silliness and doctrinal errors. Their most egregious error is baptismal regeneration which all assemblies believe with varying degrees of strictness.
 

Wasobe

New Member
Other things that I read about the Chruch of Christs doctrines that I have a problem with are:

They teach Baptismal Regeneration - Salvation by Water Baptism
They refer to Christians who are not members of "Their" Church as "Unsaved"
They reject fellowship and ministry cooperation with other local "Non Church of Christ" churches
They teach that they are the ONLY ones who can be and are saved in Jesus Christ
They believe that they are the ONLY true "Church"
They publish and distribute large volumes of literature promoting their doctrine
They reject the idea that they are a "Denomination"
They outwardly preach universal unity among churches - (but, premised on the fact that all other churches conform to "ALL" of their teachings and practices including revision of their church name to "Church of Christ")

They teach that the "Lord's Supper" MUST be observed each Sunday
They FORBID worship of the Lord with any kind of instrumental music
They emphasize the study of the Book of Acts to an extreme over the rest of the Bible
They reject the reference to their Church as a "Denomination"
They claim the "Entire" Word of God as their Doctrinal Creed
They teach that prophecies in the book of Revelation are not future, but past tense - (Preterist View)
They teach that a Christian's salvation in Christ can be Lost
They do not believe that man is Born a Sinner
They reject the doctrine concerning "The Rapture of The Church
The Old Testament Prophecies concerning Israel have become null and void. That is, God is through with Israel and He will not gather them from among the nation, sanctify them, and be glorified through them.


My wife was raised in a small CofC church and we have only attended similar churches since we have been married. All of these things stated are absolutely true of the churches we have been to. There are additional things I have seen as well. (For example: if you don't say "for the remission of sins" when you baptize someone, the baptism doesn't count and they are still unsaved)

At some point I actually started reading my Bible and started questioning CofC pastors that I knew on salvation beliefs (as well as losing salvation) among other things, and the responses I got were varied to say the least:
-One pastor taught that our sins up until baptism were covered by baptism, and our sins after that were covered by confession (this confession for that sin type of deal)
-Another taught (the one where my wife grew up) that our sins up until salvation are covered by baptism, and then we continue to get our sins covered (keep our salvation) by living a 'confessional lifestyle'. Not so much tit-for-tat but rather we must do more confessing overall than not confessing
-Another (my father-in-laws church) taught that we are saved by baptism but we are responsible for not doing big sins (rape, murder, adultery, etc) and that God's grace covers all the other little sins
-Another (church we recently left) taught that we are saved by baptism, and that there are not specific sins that will make you 'lose it', but that you can willfully 'reject it'. (wouldn't rejection be a sin too?) Sounded similar to what some of my Methodist friends believe. The kicker there was that they also taught that if you did certain things: used instruments in worship, didn't take communion on the first day of the week, had a fellowship hall, didn't attend a CofC, .....that by doing these things you have 'rejected your salvation' whether or not you actually specifically said so.

You can see the variety and confusion, and this is just within the same county. My dad's business partner was a CofC preacher for many years and he advocates very little of these teachings (he actually left the church he was at due to similar). According to him and some others I have spoken with, there are many CofC churches out there that do not hold to many of these narrow-minded beliefs and actually teach a true gospel. We have only attended small country-type churches in rural KY and TN, and I have also been told that this is where the extreme end of legalism is found among CofC goers.

A big indicator to me personally is the fact that the folks that I know that seem to be the most extreme on these teachings seem to spend very little time in the Word. This has caused huge divisions in our home and among family. None of my wife's siblings still attend CofC. Many of her family openly condemn them as going to hell for it. You can feel the love...
 

Wasobe

New Member
I'll say one more thing on the subject....

For years we were typical 'Christians' in that we would pay our dues once a week as it were by going to the main service for an hour. That was really the extent of our involvement and for all the years that we attended that way I heard very little of any of these pretty severe doctrines taught by some CofC churches. I had no idea they even existed.

When we had children we started getting more involved in church and actually paying attention since we now were realizing the added responsibility of teaching small children. I imagine having children has this effect on many people. Once we got more involved in church we started attending all the other services (sunday school, sunday night, wednesday night). I would guess probably somewhere around 90% or so of these doctrines are taught only in sunday school or wednesday night services. At times it almost seems like the services that consist mostly of the more 'hardcore' part of the congregation is where they push the most extreme doctrines and the gloves really come off. I guess if you want to keep attendance and offerings consistent it would make sense to keep the main service most people attend more 'seeker-sensitive'.

When taking notes and studying and gathering my thoughts as I was going through all this and discussing it with my wife and discussing it with CofC pastors, I went back and tried to pull transcripts so that I wouldn't risk misquoting some of the doctrines that had been taught and what I had found in the Bible on these topics. I found that the sunday school and wednesday night sermons are not recorded or posted to the website(s) like the sunday morning and sunday evening sermons are. I encountered alot of fumbling and backpeddling as well when i started meeting with CofC pastors and asking pointed questions as well as requesting supporting scriptures for some of this.
 

ozaprah

Well-Known Member
Thought I'd chime in an old thread re: Max Lucado. Say what you may about his church / ministry associations, he has a recent video (31 July 2020) on YouTube called 'Believers Will Be Leaving'. Absolutely spot on. It's a fantastic summary of the pretrib rapture position.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
"Where they get carried away is in determining that it is in the baptism that one is saved. (I know there is a verse that would seem to indicate that, but you need to take all of the verses on baptism together.) They are not alone in this: strict Baptist doctrine teaches the same thing."

I did not know that was strict Baptist doctrine, and my father is a retired Baptist minister. I don't know that I've ever heard that preached in a Baptist pulpit, but it may be the older, and as you say, "strict" Baptist doctrine. I have always heard that salvation is by grace, not by any other means, including baptism, and baptism was always portrayed as a symbol of what had already happened to the person being baptized.

One would have to be very careful about attending a legalistic church or he might find himself caught in their chains.

I attend a Baptist church and grew up in a Baptist church and I've never heard baptism as a means to salvation preached. Nor have I ever heard a sermon against dancing or drinking although those are things associated with Baptists. Any denomination is going to have some extreme elements so be careful to not paint with a broad brush. That said, make sure your church adheres to the main truths of the Bible regardless of their denomination. Get the nature of Jesus right, the Bible and salvation and those are three good building blocks of spiritual growth.
 

Kaatje

My soul waits for the Lord, and in His Word I hope
Thought I'd chime in an old thread re: Max Lucado. Say what you may about his church / ministry associations, he has a recent video (31 July 2020) on YouTube called 'Believers Will Be Leaving'. Absolutely spot on. It's a fantastic summary of the pretrib rapture position.
Thanks so much, that was beautiful!
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
I attend a Baptist church and grew up in a Baptist church and I've never heard baptism as a means to salvation preached. Nor have I ever heard a sermon against dancing or drinking although those are things associated with Baptists. Any denomination is going to have some extreme elements so be careful to not paint with a broad brush. That said, make sure your church adheres to the main truths of the Bible regardless of their denomination. Get the nature of Jesus right, the Bible and salvation and those are three good building blocks of spiritual growth.
Brother, you quoted from a post that was corrected a long time ago. It should have read (and now does) some Lutheran, not some Baptist.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thought I'd chime in an old thread re: Max Lucado. Say what you may about his church / ministry associations, he has a recent video (31 July 2020) on YouTube called 'Believers Will Be Leaving'. Absolutely spot on. It's a fantastic summary of the pretrib rapture position.
I just found it this morning too, it landed in our YouTube suggested feed, and I thought it was wonderful. (off topic, still enjoying Low Carb Down Under-- Dr Fung's talk on the 2 compartment problem was the clearest explanation of how things work for Low Carb diets that I've heard yet. thanks for suggesting it to me.)
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
I just found it this morning too, it landed in our YouTube suggested feed, and I thought it was wonderful. (off topic, still enjoying Low Carb Down Under-- Dr Fung's talk on the 2 compartment problem was the clearest explanation of how things work for Low Carb diets that I've heard yet. thanks for suggesting it to me.)

I assume you're meaning Dr. Jason Fung? If so, his books on dieting/fasting are great. I recommend him highly. My wife is a clinical dietitian and works with the same type patients Dr. Fung talks about. She has started incorporating his teachings into her patient lectures.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I assume you're meaning Dr. Jason Fung? If so, his books on dieting/fasting are great. I recommend him highly. My wife is a clinical dietitian and works with the same type patients Dr. Fung talks about. She has started incorporating his teachings into her patient lectures.
Yup sure am. I love the way he explains stuff.
 
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