Lying

[Salluz]

As far as I am aware, the bible condemns lying in every situation, but I am slightly confused what the definition of a lie is and if there are exceptions.

The questions I have specifically pertain to some situations in 1 Samuel (David's life)

The first is

The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.” 2 But Samuel said, “How can I go? If Saul hears about it, he will kill me.” The Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’ 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.” 16:1-3

Here, the purpose is to anoint David as the next king, but Samuel is told by God himself to only talk about the sacrifice. Is the concept of a "lie of omission" unbiblical? or is there something else going on here?

Jonathan also lies to Saul about David going to Bethlehem in order to ascertain whether or not Saul wanted to kill David.

Later on, David's wife claims he threatened her in order to not be targeted for helping him.

Are these actions meant to be looked down upon? What about the first example where it was God who asked for it. I guess I don't have many verses that come to mind about lies, so I would appreciate some input here

 

[mattfivefour]

OK, folks, let's get this discussion going. Our young brother has asked some good questions. Here are a couple of my own. How about people hiding Jews during the Second World War. When the Nazis came to their door and asked if they were hiding Jews, they replied "No." Was that against God's commands? An abused wife is hiding out at a friend's house, waiting for the police and the abuser in the meantime comes to the door demanding to know if his wife is in there. He is armed. The person hiding his wife says, "No." Is that against God's Word? I'm eager to hear your responses.

 

[Bron]

Rahab also had to bend the truth to protect Joshua’s men.
It seems that all the examples presented are using a ‘lie’ to protect others in danger.
As opposed to deliberate lying to cheat or manipulate.

 

[georgeO]

This gets political real quick in my opinion.
Someone is either confused or is lying in the Kavanaugh vrs Ford debate.
Is one lying to benefit over one party or another’s for the good of their perceived outcome?
In other words, does the lying justify the means?
I don’t know the answers. I believe everyone has lied sometime in their life.
Probably more than once.
Saved or not. At this point I’m supporting
Kavanaugh!

 

[ShilohRose]

While we're at this, we might as well mention the Hebrew midwives in Egypt who lied about not killing the male children born to the Hebrew women. When they were asked why they weren't killing those babies, the midwives responded that the Hebrew women were "lively" delivering their babies before the midwives could get there. And then the Bible says that the Lord "dealt well with the midwives." So were the midwives blessed because they lied or because they protected the Hebrew children? I think the same could be said for some of these other situations. It is not the lying that is rewarded; it is the protection of the innocent.

 

[mattfivefour]

Interesting comments so far. Anybody else?

 

[Everlasting Life]

Interesting subject and still pondering.......

I did have a thought. I wonder if keeping in mind the intent behind the 10 commandments would be helpful with this subject. I understand the intent is to love God and one another in our actions and words.

The New Testament is filled with encouragement to constantly, lovingly find ways to do good for one another.

Still thinking.......

 

[Kaatje]

I believe that the 9th commandment is not about lying, but about being reliable.
In a court, your testimony can literally make or break someone. In the old days it could mean life or death.
So the commandment says that you may not give a false testimony against your brother.
The blood of the innocent will be upon you if yo do.
So, in the case of Rahab, the midwives and many others, they were responsable for the lives of those put in their care. And though they lied, they didn’t break the commandment.
Our Lord Jezus said: let your yes be a yes and your no, a no. Be reliable!

 

[Brother Albert R.]

I believe God looks at the heart (motive) when we say or do anything. It is not viewed as being malicious when you are not telling the truth (lying) in order to protect the lives of those around you in certain circumstances, such as Adrian described in his first post and others pointed out in scripture. That is being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. I believe that it would be a sin not to care about the lives that are under your protection and not lie in order to protect their lives. We should pray that we do not enter those kind of circumstances but if we do we should pray for Gods wisdom and guidance. I do not condone lying for the sake of selfish gain or self preservation but when lives are at stake then we must default to the higher moral ground of saving a life and being willing to lie and perhaps pay a severe penalty if caught. Christians are noted for being truthful, as we should be, but do not confuse doing what is right with just holding to a set of self righteous rules.
I hope this helps,
God bless,
Brother AL

 

[Andy C]

Very interesting topic. The below is from “Got Questions”.

Question: Is it ever right to lie?

Answer: The Bible nowhere presents an instance where lying is considered to be the right thing to do. The ninth commandment prohibits bearing false witness (Exodus 20:16). Proverbs 6:16-19 lists “a lying tongue” and “a false witness who pours out lies” as two of the seven abominations to the Lord. Love “rejoices with the truth” (1 Corinthians 13:6). For other Scriptures that speak negatively of lying, see Psalm 119:29, 163; 120:2; Proverbs 12:22; 13:5; Ephesians 4:25; Colossians 3:9; and Revelation 21:8. There are many examples of liars in Scripture, from Jacob’s deceit in Genesis 27 to the pretense of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Time after time, we see that falsehood leads to misery, loss, and judgment.

There are at least two instances in the Bible where lying produced a favorable result. For example, the lie the Hebrew midwives tell Pharaoh seems to result in the Lord’s blessing on them (Exodus 1:15-21), and it probably saved the lives of many Hebrew babies. Another example is Rahab’s lie to protect the Israelite spies in Joshua 2:5. It is important to note, however, that God never condones these lies. Despite the “positive” outcome of these lies, the Bible nowhere praises the lies themselves. The Bible nowhere states that there are instances where lying is the right thing to do. At the same time, the Bible does not declare that there is no possible instance in which lying is an acceptable option.

The question then remains: is there ever a time when lying is the right thing to do? The most common illustration of this dilemma comes from the life of Corrie ten Boom in Nazi-occupied Holland. Essentially, the story is this: Corrie ten Boom is hiding Jews in her home to protect them from the Nazis. Nazi soldiers come to her home and ask her if she knows where any Jews are hiding. What is she to do? Should she tell the truth and allow the Nazis to capture the Jews she was trying to protect? Or, should she lie and deny that she knows anything about them?

In an instance such as this, where lying may be the only possible way to prevent a horrible evil, perhaps lying would be an acceptable thing to do. Such an instance would be somewhat similar to the lies of the Hebrew midwives and Rahab. In an evil world, and in a desperate situation, it may be the right thing to commit a lesser evil, lying, in order to prevent a much greater evil. However, it must be noted that such instances are extremely rare. It is highly likely that the vast majority of people in human history have never faced a situation in which lying was the right thing to do.

https://www.gotquestions.org/right-to-lie.html

 

[mattfivefour]

I have "liked" every response because all contribute something to this discussion. I understand the severity of the God Questions answer Andy has posted: none of us wants to condone lying. Even more so for those who are called as pastors and teachers, for our judgment for encouraging lies will be more severe. After all, Revelation 21:8 states that ALL liars will be condemned to the eternal Lake of Fire ... which is why it is so important to parse this issue correctly.

Not to end this discussion but to further it, I am repeating EL's post. I think that by considering the purpose of God's commands we are on the right path to godly wisdom in this matter.

Interesting subject and still pondering.......

I did have a thought. I wonder if keeping in mind the intent behind the 10 commandments would be helpful with this subject. I understand the intent is to love God and one another in our actions and words.

The New Testament is filled with encouragement to constantly, lovingly find ways to do good for one another.

Still thinking.......

This is a theme picked up by others in this thread, including Brother Albert:

I believe God looks at the heart (motive) when we say or do anything. It is not viewed as being malicious when you are not telling the truth (lying) in order to protect the lives of those around you in certain circumstances, such as Adrian described in his first post and others pointed out in scripture. That is being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. I believe that it would be a sin not to care about the lives that are under your protection and not lie in order to protect their lives. We should pray that we do not enter those kind of circumstances but if we do we should pray for Gods wisdom and guidance. I do not condone lying for the sake of selfish gain or self preservation but when lives are at stake then we must default to the higher moral ground of saving a life and being willing to lie and perhaps pay a severe penalty if caught. Christians are noted for being truthful, as we should be, but do not confuse doing what is right with just holding to a set of self righteous rules.
I hope this helps,
God bless,
Brother AL

Now, all of us wanting to walk as children of light, pleasing unto God, are there further considerations on this topic?

This is not a little matter. It is VERY important, given God's Word on the subject of deceit. So, Cca we answer definitively the question "Is it ever right to lie/deceive?" And if so, what is the godly principle at work at such a time? Have EL and Albert perhaps already stated it?

Prayerfully answers are needed.

 

[Andy C]

This is not a little matter. It is VERY important, given God's Word on the subject of deceit. So, Cca we answer definitively the question "Is it ever right to lie/deceive?" And if so, what is the godly principle at work at such a time? Have EL and Albert perhaps already stated it?

They both nailed it. I only added my post for more detailed information.

If ever Im in a situation where lying to evil to protect any member of His church is needed, I will do so, confident the Lord knows my heart, and my intent is pure.

 

[lightofmylife]

They both nailed it. I only added my post for more detailed information.

If ever Im in a situation where lying to evil to protect any member of His church is needed, I will do so, confident the Lord knows my heart, and my intent is pure.

I agree with Andy C. Here is a link that gives some detailed information also! I had something happen yesterday at Arby's. We got a 2 for $7 deal that didn't include cheddar cheese. I called and asked how much extra for it. The guy told me 50 cents. I asked again at the speaker, and I was told 54 cents. When my husband looked at the receipt we were charged 65 cents per sandwich. Both people were wrong. When I asked the manager she told me they made a mistake. So both people who told me how much it was were wrong. If they didn't know for sure, they should have asked before giving me a wrong answer. www.gospelway.com/morality/lying.php

 

[Everlasting Life]

I was treading very cautiously last night on this. Lying is highly destructive, especially in the church. It's so destructive that God dealt with it very quickly when showing it's ugly head in Acts 5 with Ananias and Sapphira who sold land for a certain price, brought only half the amount claiming that it was the full amount. Behind this was possibly the motive to look good before all the people and hearts not fully yielded to Godly principles. It was devious and underhanded, the very things that the world engages in with serious consequences.

God's response seems very severe, but with the church just starting out, this could not be a foundational acceptance, especially since the church was very new and also meant to be a light of truth to the world. We are told that Satan is the father of lies, so we have to be very careful that we are not utilizing the tools of our enemy.

The examples of Ruth and David are certainly challenging, but these are very small seemingly exceptions (reserving the thought that I may not have enough info, or understanding on this)....I appreciated the article from Got Questions in that extreme possible situations are very rare, like with the Jews, etc. My thinking is that Ruth had emerging faith in God, but not full knowledge of God's commandments like Israel did, and with David, it may be that he did go to Bethlehem but it was not shared with us. It's interesting to note that later David lied to the high priest about why he was at the Tabernacle and why he needed Goliath's sword. It seems that in reading this passage David was possibly making hurried decisions in a panic without checking in with God (at least checking in with God is not recorded), perhaps fear was a predominant emotion rather than trust in God. This placed him in a precarious position and also exposed him to further danger in that Doeg the Edomite, a servant of Saul was there. In addition David fled to enemy territory which eventually forced David to act insane to save his own life. So, in looking at this situation I learn that it's important to seek God, especially in high stress situations, so that one is not forced, or think that they are forced to utilize underhanded methods to survive.

It's interesting to note that Psalm 34 is David talking about this exact situation. David at some point must have finally sought the Lord as he described in the beginning of Psalm 34 and gives some wise advice. Here's what he says,
"Come, my children, and listen to me,
and I will teach you to fear the Lord.
Does anyone want to live a life
that is long and prosperous?
Then keep your tongue from speaking evil
and your lips from telling lies!
Turn away from evil and do good.
Search for peace, and work to maintain it.

11-14

It seems that he learned a serious lesson. I think this might be supported by the fact that in 1 Sam 22:20-23 David takes responsibility of the deaths of the priests, partly because of his presence there (eta, not that this was necessarily wrong) and perhaps because of lies he told (of which David addresses in Psalm 34 about keeping lips from telling lies).

Only Abiathar, one of the sons of Ahimelech, escaped and fled to David. When he told David that Saul had killed the priests of the Lord, David exclaimed, “I knew it! When I saw Doeg the Edomite there that day, I knew he was sure to tell Saul. Now I have caused the death of all your father’s family. Stay here with me, and don’t be afraid. I will protect you with my own life, for the same person wants to kill us both.”

It's in chapter 23 that it's finally mentioned that David sought the Lord in regards to a decision. It says,
But David’s men said, “We’re afraid even here in Judah. We certainly don’t want to go to Keilah to fight the whole Philistine army!”

So David asked the Lord again, and again the Lord replied, “Go down to Keilah, for I will help you conquer the Philistines.” vs 3-4

In fact the whole first half of the chapter is David seeking the Lord with one situation after another. It seems that he learned from his mistakes and corrected. A good example to follow.

Eta, with Samuel I don't think God told him to lie. Samuel did go and sacrifice to the Lord. It seems in the context of this passage (1 Sam 16) that Samuel was anointing David as King on the down low, keeping things quiet. I don't know that this is necessarily lying.



Being a person who tries to be careful to build on truth as I'm trying to understand something and filling in question marks, I think that if placed in a situation that was challenging as described and at crossroads, I would seek God in prayer for His help and guidance in navigating or ask God to work in the situation so that I could proceed in a way that wouldn't go against His ways or my conscience. Of course things can happen really fast (like with David) and in my humanness can find myself here and there in a pickle without planning to. So, I often, proactively pray that God would guide me away from those things and situations, asking for His help with my days. Especially if I'm tired, hungry, or stretched in some way. And learn from my own mistakes.

These are some additional thoughts and observations. In cases described in the bible that raise these types of questions, I think further study is important, looking at other scripture, good commentaries, seeking counsel, and praying for God's insight and help is good.

 

[Jan51]

The Old Testament records incidents as they happen, usually without editorial comments. Just because people act the way they did does not necessarily mean God condoned it. We must compare what information we have about the person, the situation, and what resulted in that situation and in that person's life. We are also told that God knows we are but dust, we are weak and sinful. He is often gracious, but often He also allows us to reap what we sowed. And yes, the Bible does tell us that God is concerned about the motives of our hearts. Only He, the righteous Judge, can weigh all things.

 

[Andy C]

Im very humbled by the knowledge put forth on this thread. Im getting older, but I can still learn!

 

[Everlasting Life]

Yes, I think God does look at the heart for sure, and situations and motivations. We know that God is righteous, and we know that He is merciful, understanding and compassionate. I do think He understands when we are caught up in a situation that requires protecting because of sincere safety concerns.

In thinking, I can see where Salluz is wondering about the definition of lying, particularly omission of information. Samuel didn't announce to anyone but David and his family what his main purpose in visiting was for, he kept quiet on that and followed God's guidance in acting with additional purpose (sacrifice) to keep the main purpose a secret or private. There is a need for prudent secrecy at times. I do note that the bible says Samuel asked God for guidance in regards to his concern, that's important. In all this Samuel acted with integrity and honesty....at least that's what I think.

There are tricky situations to navigate, particularly in order to preserve the protection of someone. Perhaps I can share a situation that might be a helpful example. There was a pastor in a town who was dealing with a congregant (with abusive tendencies) who was manipulatively pressuring him to contact this congregant's relative at another town through a social media platform in order to persuade this relative to concede to unreasonable demands. This pastor, worn down by the insistent requests, finally complied with the request.

When the relative received the communication, this relative took time to prayerfully (seeking God's wisdom) consider how to respond in such a way so as not to create further problems for the pastor (or for themselves), knowing how very difficult this congregant was and to follow God's biblical guidance. If it was know by the congregant that the pastor had been successful in contacting the relative and had gotten a response, this poor pastor would never be left alone. But it was necessary to contact the pastor for various reasons.

So, after seeking God, the relative called the pastor, instead of responding through this social media. This allowed for necessary communication, but also allowed for the pastor to truthfully say that he did not receive any social media response back from his initial reaching out through the social media platform and protected both the pastor and the relative.

Again, these are just some thoughts. I'm certainly open to growing in understanding on this myself and look forward to other people's thoughts. Please know that I'm not trying to be dogmatic, but just adding to the discussion.

 

[Everlasting Life]

Im very humbled by the knowledge put forth on this thread. Im getting older, but I can still learn!

Andy, I am humbled by your Godly example in your life (and others here) and timely sharing of scriptures and information. You are valuable as a servant of the Lord and I think many look to your example.

I went to bed last night thinking about this thread. I "happen" to decide to read the bible briefly before going to bed and I opened up straight to the story in Acts. It was not lost on me that this might be important to this discussion and thought it uncanny that was the story I came across. Also for my conscience's sake wanted to make sure that I was supplementing my initial post with looking at the scriptural passages mentioned in the op.

In looking at the bible passages in the op this morning (as well as the passages before and after for a full picture) to get another fresh look, I made some observations. I also did some research, this is where I found Psalm 34 in connection with David's incident in the book of Samuel, which seemed to confirm some observations.

So, just passing on information gleaned from other connected passages and the Psalm 34 connection (which was a neat nugget of information) I learned about to add to the discussion. I think having as much information as possible is helpful.

Again, not wanting to be dogmatic or legalistic....just sharing some thoughts and info. I look forward to what others comments.

 

[mattfivefour]

This is probably one of the most important issues we have discussed here at RF. And I am impressed with the level of discourse. Like Andy I am humbled by it; like EL I am looking forward to further comments.

 

[lightofmylife]

We know that Satan is the Father of lies. He comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Proverbs 6:16-21.