Luke 2 question

Purchased With Blood

Well-Known Member
This is an excellent question. These shepherds established from His birth that Jesus was the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world, just as John the Baptist said. A growing number of Christians, myself included, believe that Migdal Eder, which means “tower of the flock,” was the correct location of Messiah’s birth. Micah 5:2 indicates that He would be born in Bethlehem Ephratah, but many historically have overlooked Micah 4:8 which says, “And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.” This stone watch tower was used to guard the flock in the fields and also to protect newborn lambs.

19th-century Messianic Jewish scholar Alfred Edersheim wrote, “A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds.” Like Jesus, the lambs used in temple sacrifices needed to be males without blemish. Because of the rabbinic tradition, Edersheim explains that it would be almost impossible for normal shepherds, who were largely banned from religious ordinances, to be the ones to watch over such important lambs. The lambs upon birth were wrapped in swaddling clothes and kept in a manger in the tower so that they could be inspected by these shepherds. This is very similar to the inspection of the red heifers today in Israel. This is the reason why the angel said to these shepherds, “And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” These shepherds knew exactly where to go and probably also knew He would be sacrificed somehow. Another and perhaps better translation for “manger” is “birthing stall” and the stone birthing stalls in Migdal Eder were purified regularly, which makes it a more logical place to give birth than a filthy animal barn.

Even if these were normal shepherds, and I doubt they were, there is even more evidence that the tower of the flock was the correct location and everyone should be a Berean and come to their own conclusions. The location of the Church of the Nativity was determined by Helena, the mother of Constantine. Like many of her “holy relics” this site deserves close scrutiny. She was unfamiliar with the area and like her son was almost certainly a replacement theologist who did not understand the significance of the Passover Lamb. Some sources indicate that her archeological methodology included her dreams and the torture of locals.
 

UntilTheWholeWorldHears

Well-Known Member
This is an excellent question. These shepherds established from His birth that Jesus was the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world, just as John the Baptist said. A growing number of Christians, myself included, believe that Migdal Eder, which means “tower of the flock,” was the correct location of Messiah’s birth. Micah 5:2 indicates that He would be born in Bethlehem Ephratah, but many historically have overlooked Micah 4:8 which says, “And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.” This stone watch tower was used to guard the flock in the fields and also to protect newborn lambs.

19th-century Messianic Jewish scholar Alfred Edersheim wrote, “A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds.” Like Jesus, the lambs used in temple sacrifices needed to be males without blemish. Because of the rabbinic tradition, Edersheim explains that it would be almost impossible for normal shepherds, who were largely banned from religious ordinances, to be the ones to watch over such important lambs. The lambs upon birth were wrapped in swaddling clothes and kept in a manger in the tower so that they could be inspected by these shepherds. This is very similar to the inspection of the red heifers today in Israel. This is the reason why the angel said to these shepherds, “And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” These shepherds knew exactly where to go and probably also knew He would be sacrificed somehow. Another and perhaps better translation for “manger” is “birthing stall” and the stone birthing stalls in Migdal Eder were purified regularly, which makes it a more logical place to give birth than a filthy animal barn.

Even if these were normal shepherds, and I doubt they were, there is even more evidence that the tower of the flock was the correct location and everyone should be a Berean and come to their own conclusions. The location of the Church of the Nativity was determined by Helena, the mother of Constantine. Like many of her “holy relics” this site deserves close scrutiny. She was unfamiliar with the area and like her son was almost certainly a replacement theologist who did not understand the significance of the Passover Lamb. Some sources indicate that her archeological methodology included her dreams and the torture of locals.
Interesting, I had never heard about this. Always believed it was Bethlehem, based on Micah 5:2.
Definitely, something to research in the scriptures.
 

Purchased With Blood

Well-Known Member
I recently learned that many homes at Jesus' time had a type of little manger in the first floor to protect animals from danger/cold at night and at the same time the heat from their bodies kept the occupants warm in the second level of the home.
That could very well be true and I understand that people have different opinions than mine. I could be wrong and this is new to me as well, but this is important enough to be explored. Many opponents of this position will post online that there is little written evidence that lambs were swaddled, and therefore, they have “debunked” the entire notion that Jesus was born in the tower of the flock. This is a mistake because regardless of whether or not lambs were swaddled, this does not debunk Micah the prophet, who specifically mentions the tower of the flock, and the next few verses are about giving birth and the coming ruler of Israel.

An interesting and related bit of information is that before Passover, a sacrificial lamb was chosen and set apart on the 10th day of the first month of Nissan. On the 10th day of Nissan, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey, fulfilling the prophecies of Daniel and Zechariah. The lamb was to be inspected for four days until the 14th day of the month for any spot or blemish that might disqualify it as the sacrificial lamb. Jesus taught openly in the temple until the 14th day of the month and no fault could be found in Him. Of course He was then slain as the Passover Lamb. From His birth until His crucifixion, He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
 

Jaybird

Well-Known Member
I read this theory about Migdal Eder on another website and it is very interesting. We take for granted that many of the "holy sites" in Jerusalem are what they claim to be. However, as "Purchased with Blood" states in his post above these sites were "discovered" by Constantine's wife Helena after his supposed conversion to Christianity. When you start reading some of the archaeological journals they cast a ton of doubt on their authenticity. We don't need relics or holy sites to substantiate our faith.
 

Purchased With Blood

Well-Known Member
I read this theory about Migdal Eder on another website and it is very interesting. We take for granted that many of the "holy sites" in Jerusalem are what they claim to be. However, as "Purchased with Blood" states in his post above these sites were "discovered" by Constantine's wife Helena after his supposed conversion to Christianity. When you start reading some of the archaeological journals they cast a ton of doubt on their authenticity. We don't need relics or holy sites to substantiate our faith.
Thank you, I was able to download the pdf of the book and it looks interesting. As it says in 2 Kings 18:4, King Hezekiah destroyed the brazen serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness because the children of Israel burned incense to it. That was a genuine relic held by Moses himself, and yet it needed to be destroyed because of idolatry, which is an abomination to the Lord. The Church of the Nativity is administered by the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the Orthodox Church, which burns incense to icons. They are also replacement theologists who lack understanding of eschatology. In Edersheim’s book it is clear that his theory revolves around the shepherds, and whether or not they were Levitical. That Messiah would come from the tower of the flock is based on Micah’s prophecies and does not originate with Edersheim, which is an important distinction.
 
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