Lordship Salvation: The Latest Works Based Salvation Plan

Goodboy

Won't Be Long Now!
Goodboy, I'm not even sure of your definition of Lordship salvation but in any case I have very clearly stated my position already and have no desire to go over and over it again. I'll leave it at agreeing with Adrian and Mike.
Well I am glad that you expressed your view and I find it interesting. However, truth only comes from the bible, so I want to see what backs up your view in scripture. You say that has already been given and I say if so, I cannot find it. If you know of scripture to back up your view, why won't you share it with me? Peoples views, even pastors views don't change my thinking, only bible truth! :)
 

Goodboy

Won't Be Long Now!
I know I should probably leave this thread alone, but I can't help myself. :)

Anyone who fully believes in "Lordship Salvation" can never truly know if they are truly saved and here is why.

The claim is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and surrender all to him, the proof will be shown in the fact that you sin less. That may make sense until you really put it into practice. So how much less sin is enough? Who gets to decide how much less is enough? Who gets to decide which are the big sins, verses the little ones? If we are honest with ourselves and that's a big if, the sins we really try to stop are the ones we judge as bad.

A Christian may say that they have stopped almost all of their sins and are working hard on the rest. I may challenge them and ask, do you love your neighbor as yourself? They may answer, of course I do! I then ask them what they have done for their neighbors who you claim to love as yourself? I may get back a blank stare.

A Christian may say that they have surrendered all to Christ. While that surely may sound good, unless you are a full time pastor, evangelist or missionary that is not true. Most of us including me spend most of our time doing what we choose to do, not what Jesus wants us to do.

My point here is that we all continue to sin, so how can we judge which sins might keep us out of Heaven? We can't! The good news is that sin does not keep us out of Heaven, only unbelief does!
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Well I am glad that you expressed your view and I find it interesting. However, truth only comes from the bible, so I want to see what backs up your view in scripture. You say that has already been given and I say if so, I cannot find it. If you know of scripture to back up your view, why won't you share it with me? Peoples views, even pastors views don't change my thinking, only bible truth! :)
Quit looking, there is nothing that supports any part of LS. There are however, plenty of verses which talk about how a Christian should act, and how failure to do so will casue loss of Fellowship, but never loss of salvation.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
There is a lot of confusion over this topic! Or, at least, a lot of debate and contention. And I fear that some of my teaching may have been misconstrued to a degree. So please allow me to clarify.

First of all, NO person can lose their salvation by anything they may do or not do. Once they are saved, they are saved. As long as their faith is in Jesus Christ and what He did for them, they are saved. And no person truly saved can deny the faith because God is the one who has undertaken to keep every one who comes to Him. Therefore, once saved, always saved. That is bedrock.

And, secondly, salvation does not require of a person anything more than a heart-turning from one's ways to God's ways. It does not demand a person first become a pure-living, obedient saint in order to receive salvation.

BUT that raises the question— what is true salvation? How does a person know they have exercised saving faith? And that is where the issue of Lordship enters. Not as a qualification to be saved but as a characteristic of the heart of the person seeking salvation. Acts 2:36; Acts 5:14; Acts 10:36; Acts 11:20; Acts 16:31; 2 Corinthians 4:5; and other similar verses all show that calling on people to believe that Jesus is Lord is clearly a part of New Testament evangelism. Paul in Romans 10:9-10 makes it clear that accepting Jesus is Lord is part of salvation. Now saying that Jesus is Lord is, simply put, accepting that He is God. But that being so, then we are saying He has a right over our lives. God being sovereign over all, means HE is sovereign over us. Salvation is a sinner agreeing with this fact, as he or she abandons all of their own efforts and places all hope for their soul entirely in who Christ is and what He has done.

I fear that too often a sinner is told simply to offer mere mental assent to the truth that Jesus is Lord. That is basically telling them that the idea or the words have some sort of power to save them. And that is not true. It is believing in the heart that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) and the Lord that is the point at which the sinner is saved. Salvation occurs when the sinner makes the conscious choice to turn their life over to Him.

This does not imply that the person must accept Christ as Lord of every aspect of their life in order to be saved. To believe that they must is the error of Lordship Salvation. No, the belief is that Christ IS Lord over all and is backed by a decision to be willing to allow Christ to take control. Sanctification is the gradual process by which Christ extends His Lordship over the saved person to every aspect of their being. And I doubt that is ever a completed process until the moment we enter Glory.

Why am I pushing this issue? Because Christ Himself said, "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23) I do not want to have to stand before God and answer to why I soft pedaled the basics of salvation so as not to upset someone. Salvation is not some spur of the moment, off-handed act; nor some light thing. It is a solemn act on the very brink of an eternal precipice. It is unworthy man coming before Holy God and acknowledging both his unworthiness and God's holiness, and humbly accepting God's perfect plan to save him. And I want to make sure that anybody who believes they are saved are indeed saved ... that they have consciously acknowledged what is necessary and have consciously made the decision to allow God the right to his or her life. Only then will I be able to stand before God and state that I have done His will to the best of my ability.

That alone is salvation. The outworking of that salvation—the surrender and increasing obedience to God, both in character and degree—is what follows salvation. It is not part of it. It is what we call sanctification. And to ensure that is fully understood, I will repeat my earlier statement: Sanctification is the gradual process by which Christ extends His Lordship over the saved person to every aspect of their being.

So let us reject the false teaching of Lordship Salvation—that says a person cannot be saved until they turn over every aspect of their being in obedience to Christ's lordship—without denying that the sinner must truly accept that Jesus is both Savior and Lord (with all that may entail for their life in the future.)

I do not think I have explained this as well as I wanted to. But I hope it helps.
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
Thanks Adrian. I would mention also where Philippians 2 states to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling shows that we are in a sanctification process once we give our lives to Him. If we are His, we will follow Him and love His Word. Personally, I try not to micro-analyze this too much because as a child of God I am not a judge nor am I capable of making myself wise enough to do so. If I believe in Him and seek His will then that's simple enough for me to accept.
 

Goodboy

Won't Be Long Now!
There is a lot of confusion over this topic! Or, at least, a lot of debate and contention. And I fear that some of my teaching may have been misconstrued to a degree. So please allow me to clarify.

First of all, NO person can lose their salvation by anything they may do or not do. Once they are saved, they are saved. As long as their faith is in Jesus Christ and what He did for them, they are saved. And no person truly saved can deny the faith because God is the one who has undertaken to keep every one who comes to Him. Therefore, once saved, always saved. That is bedrock.

And, secondly, salvation does not require of a person anything more than a heart-turning from one's ways to God's ways. It does not demand a person first become a pure-living, obedient saint in order to receive salvation.

BUT that raises the question— what is true salvation? How does a person know they have exercised saving faith? And that is where the issue of Lordship enters. Not as a qualification to be saved but as a characteristic of the heart of the person seeking salvation. Acts 2:36; Acts 5:14; Acts 10:36; Acts 11:20; Acts 16:31; 2 Corinthians 4:5; and other similar verses all show that calling on people to believe that Jesus is Lord is clearly a part of New Testament evangelism. Paul in Romans 10:9-10 makes it clear that accepting Jesus is Lord is part of salvation. Now saying that Jesus is Lord is, simply put, accepting that He is God. But that being so, then we are saying He has a right over our lives. God being sovereign over all, means HE is sovereign over us. Salvation is a sinner agreeing with this fact, as he or she abandons all of their own efforts and places all hope for their soul entirely in who Christ is and what He has done.

I fear that too often a sinner is told simply to offer mere mental assent to the truth that Jesus is Lord. That is basically telling them that the idea or the words have some sort of power to save them. And that is not true. It is believing in the heart that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) and the Lord that is the point at which the sinner is saved. Salvation occurs when the sinner makes the conscious choice to turn their life over to Him.

This does not imply that the person must accept Christ as Lord of every aspect of their life in order to be saved. To believe that they must is the error of Lordship Salvation. No, the belief is that Christ IS Lord over all and is backed by a decision to be willing to allow Christ to take control. Sanctification is the gradual process by which Christ extends His Lordship over the saved person to every aspect of their being. And I doubt that is ever a completed process until the moment we enter Glory.

Why am I pushing this issue? Because Christ Himself said, "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23) I do not want to have to stand before God and answer to why I soft pedaled the basics of salvation so as not to upset someone. Salvation is not some spur of the moment, off-handed act; nor some light thing. It is a solemn act on the very brink of an eternal precipice. It is unworthy man coming before Holy God and acknowledging both his unworthiness and God's holiness, and humbly accepting God's perfect plan to save him. And I want to make sure that anybody who believes they are saved are indeed saved ... that they have consciously acknowledged what is necessary and have consciously made the decision to allow God the right to his or her life. Only then will I be able to stand before God and state that I have done His will to the best of my ability.

That alone is salvation. The outworking of that salvation—the surrender and increasing obedience to God, both in character and degree—is what follows salvation. It is not part of it. It is what we call sanctification. And to ensure that is fully understood, I will repeat my earlier statement: Sanctification is the gradual process by which Christ extends His Lordship over the saved person to every aspect of their being.

So let us reject the false teaching of Lordship Salvation—that says a person cannot be saved until they turn over every aspect of their being in obedience to Christ's lordship—without denying that the sinner must truly accept that Jesus is both Savior and Lord (with all that may entail for their life in the future.)

I do not think I have explained this as well as I wanted to. But I hope it helps.
As always, thanks for your input Mattfivefour. :)

There are two points I want to make.

First
I think that everyone on this forum would agree that to be saved a person must believe Jesus is LORD (God). So let's not confuse the issue with Jesus being Lord as we all agree on that. We just disagree that there is anything we need to do other than believe and accept to be saved. The Lordship Salvation teaching implies they we must try to do everything that Jesus would want us to in order to be saved. Us trying to do, is work.

Second
Let's break down the verses in Matthew 7:21-23.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So Jesus is saying just because you call me Lord, does not mean you believe it. Then Jesus goes on to say it is he that does the will of the father that is saved. So what is the will of the father? It tells us in John 6:29 and 6:40
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
So Jesus is saying that many will tell me of the works they have done to earn salvation, rather than depending on what Jesus has done. If you had to make your case as why you should get to Heaven, would you start by talking about what you have done?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
While this may imply that "working iniquity" is the problem, Jesus is simply calling them what they are. Without believing in and relying on what Jesus did on the cross, you are dead in your sins.

So the point of Matthew 7:21-23 is that it is only belief that saves you and there will be some that call Jesus Lord without believing it. That also includes some who are Lordship Salvation believers.

Well I may not have convinced you of anything and that's OK. You are a great well read brother in Christ and I highly respect you!!! :thumbup
 
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Andy C

Well-Known Member
There is a lot of confusion over this topic! Or, at least, a lot of debate and contention. And I fear that some of my teaching may have been misconstrued to a degree. So please allow me to clarify.

First of all, NO person can lose their salvation by anything they may do or not do. Once they are saved, they are saved. As long as their faith is in Jesus Christ and what He did for them, they are saved. And no person truly saved can deny the faith because God is the one who has undertaken to keep every one who comes to Him. Therefore, once saved, always saved. That is bedrock.

And, secondly, salvation does not require of a person anything more than a heart-turning from one's ways to God's ways. It does not demand a person first become a pure-living, obedient saint in order to receive salvation.

BUT that raises the question— what is true salvation? How does a person know they have exercised saving faith? And that is where the issue of Lordship enters. Not as a qualification to be saved but as a characteristic of the heart of the person seeking salvation. Acts 2:36; Acts 5:14; Acts 10:36; Acts 11:20; Acts 16:31; 2 Corinthians 4:5; and other similar verses all show that calling on people to believe that Jesus is Lord is clearly a part of New Testament evangelism. Paul in Romans 10:9-10 makes it clear that accepting Jesus is Lord is part of salvation. Now saying that Jesus is Lord is, simply put, accepting that He is God. But that being so, then we are saying He has a right over our lives. God being sovereign over all, means HE is sovereign over us. Salvation is a sinner agreeing with this fact, as he or she abandons all of their own efforts and places all hope for their soul entirely in who Christ is and what He has done.

I fear that too often a sinner is told simply to offer mere mental assent to the truth that Jesus is Lord. That is basically telling them that the idea or the words have some sort of power to save them. And that is not true. It is believing in the heart that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) and the Lord that is the point at which the sinner is saved. Salvation occurs when the sinner makes the conscious choice to turn their life over to Him.

This does not imply that the person must accept Christ as Lord of every aspect of their life in order to be saved. To believe that they must is the error of Lordship Salvation. No, the belief is that Christ IS Lord over all and is backed by a decision to be willing to allow Christ to take control. Sanctification is the gradual process by which Christ extends His Lordship over the saved person to every aspect of their being. And I doubt that is ever a completed process until the moment we enter Glory.

Why am I pushing this issue? Because Christ Himself said, "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23) I do not want to have to stand before God and answer to why I soft pedaled the basics of salvation so as not to upset someone. Salvation is not some spur of the moment, off-handed act; nor some light thing. It is a solemn act on the very brink of an eternal precipice. It is unworthy man coming before Holy God and acknowledging both his unworthiness and God's holiness, and humbly accepting God's perfect plan to save him. And I want to make sure that anybody who believes they are saved are indeed saved ... that they have consciously acknowledged what is necessary and have consciously made the decision to allow God the right to his or her life. Only then will I be able to stand before God and state that I have done His will to the best of my ability.

That alone is salvation. The outworking of that salvation—the surrender and increasing obedience to God, both in character and degree—is what follows salvation. It is not part of it. It is what we call sanctification. And to ensure that is fully understood, I will repeat my earlier statement: Sanctification is the gradual process by which Christ extends His Lordship over the saved person to every aspect of their being.

So let us reject the false teaching of Lordship Salvation—that says a person cannot be saved until they turn over every aspect of their being in obedience to Christ's lordship—without denying that the sinner must truly accept that Jesus is both Savior and Lord (with all that may entail for their life in the future.)

I do not think I have explained this as well as I wanted to. But I hope it helps.
Lets see if I can pull a rabbit out of my hat, and articulate my thoughts in a concise manner. Going against Adrian is like bringing a small pocket knife to a machine gun fight.

Adrian, I agree with the majority of your post, but I think part of what you posted will cause other Chrisitans (especially baby Christians) to doubt their own salvation.

You said...

I fear that too often a sinner is told simply to offer mere mental assent to the truth that Jesus is Lord. That is basically telling them that the idea or the words have some sort of power to save them. And that is not true. It is believing in the heart that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) and the Lord that is the point at which the sinner is saved. Salvation occurs when the sinner makes the conscious choice to turn their life over to Him”.

How many will read that and have serious doubts that they qualify for salvation - after all, they only gave a “mere mental assent”. For me personlly, at the beginning of my walk, doubts on my own salvation crept in to my mind whenever I read comments such as yours. I know that is not your intent, but nevertheless, I fear it has that affect.

Yes, words dont save, the power of Jesus saves, and I became saved the moment I believed in Him.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
As always, thanks for your input Mattfivefour. :)

There are two points I want to make.

First
I think that everyone on this forum would agree that to be saved a person must believe Jesus is LORD (God). So let's not confuse the issue with Jesus being Lord as we all agree on that. We just disagree that there is anything we need to do other than believe and accept to be saved. The Lordship Salvation teaching implies they we must try to do everything that Jesus would want us to in order to be saved. Us trying to do, is work.

Second
Let's break down the verses in Matthew 7:21-23.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So Jesus is saying just because you call me Lord, does not mean you believe it. Then Jesus goes on to say it is he that does the will of the father that is saved. So what is the will of the father? It tells us in John 6:29
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
So Jesus is saying that many will tell me of the works they have done to earn salvation, rather depending on what Jesus has done. If you had to make your case as why you should get to Heaven, would you start talking about what you have done?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
While this may imply that "working iniquity" is the problem, Jesus is simply calling them what they are. Without believing in and relying on what Jesus did on the cross, you are dead in your sins.

So the point of Matthew 7:21-23 is that it is only belief that saves you and there will be some that call Jesus Lord without believing it. That also includes some who are Lordship Salvation believers.

Well I may not have convinced you of anything and that's OK. You are a great well read brother in Christ and I highly respect you!!! :thumbup
Excellent brother.
 

greg64

Well-Known Member
It's a tough subject. As always on this one, many of the comments seem to come from a place of fearing what others might take away from it vs what they actually said. I haven't seen anyone post in favor of saying a prayer and going on sinning with no change. Conversely, I think we're all clear that salvation is by grace through faith and not a work.

If repentance is really a change of mind regarding our own righteousness (lack thereof, really) before God, then we realize our completely hopeless situation before Him and take the only way He provides for bridging that gap. If/when that happens, of course things will change as a result -- but the speed and ease with which that will happen will vary -- for some, it may be a seed that takes quite some time to sprout.

I do get worried when we focus too much on works, as we've had quite a few threads recently where we can see that's keeping people from Christ and/or robbing them of assurance they need to really grow. To me, that's the tragedy of lordship salvation as it's being promoted.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
It's a tough subject. As always on this one, many of the comments seem to come from a place of fearing what others might take away from it vs what they actually said. I haven't seen anyone post in favor of saying a prayer and going on sinning with no change. Conversely, I think we're all clear that salvation is by grace through faith and not a work.

If repentance is really a change of mind regarding our own righteousness (lack thereof, really) before God, then we realize our completely hopeless situation before Him and take the only way He provides for bridging that gap. If/when that happens, of course things will change as a result -- but the speed and ease with which that will happen will vary -- for some, it may be a seed that takes quite some time to sprout.

I do get worried when we focus too much on works, as we've had quite a few threads recently where we can see that's keeping people from Christ and/or robbing them of assurance they need to really grow. To me, that's the tragedy of lordship salvation as it's being promoted.
:thumbup
 

Goodboy

Won't Be Long Now!
So let's say Joe does not believe in Lordship Salvation but thinks he is saved, because he believed that Jesus is Lord and accepted his free gift of salvation. Let's say Sam a Lordship Salvation believer convinces Joe that he is not saved and must fully summit to the will of God. Joe then tells Sam that he wants to be saved and asks Sam how does he do that.

What should Sam now tell Joe to do? If Sam says that Joe must start living for God, isn't that work? If Sam says nothing, Joe will assume that he must start living for God which is work. Living for God is great and all Christians should try to do this, but salvation is a free gift requiring no work on our part!

If you say that God will do the work of sanctification for anyone who believes, that's fine. However, if God is going to do the work there is no need to tell anyone about it. When you tell someone about the work that needs to happen in their life for salvation, they will automatically try to do it themselves. If they have trouble succeeding, they will start to think they are not saved.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
So let's say Joe does not believe in Lordship Salvation but thinks he is saved, because he believed that Jesus is Lord and accepted his free gift of salvation. Let's say Sam a Lordship Salvation believer convinces Joe that he is not saved and must fully summit to the will of God. Joe then tells Sam that he wants to be saved and asks Sam how does he do that.

What should Sam now tell Joe to do? If Sam says that Joe must start living for God, isn't that work? If Sam says nothing, Joe will assume that he must start living for God which is work. Living for God is great and all Christians should try to do this, but salvation is a free gift requiring no work on our part!

If you say that God will do the work of sanctification for anyone who believes, that's fine. However, if God is going to do the work there is no need to tell anyone about it. When you tell someone about the work that needs to happen in their life for salvation, they will automatically try to do it themselves. If they have trouble succeeding, they will start to think they are not saved.
Your “illustrations” always help get the point across..thanks.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
As always, thanks for your input Mattfivefour. :)

There are two points I want to make.

First
I think that everyone on this forum would agree that to be saved a person must believe Jesus is LORD (God). So let's not confuse the issue with Jesus being Lord as we all agree on that. We just disagree that there is anything we need to do other than believe and accept to be saved. The Lordship Salvation teaching implies they we must try to do everything that Jesus would want us to in order to be saved. Us trying to do, is work.

Second
Let's break down the verses in Matthew 7:21-23.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So Jesus is saying just because you call me Lord, does not mean you believe it. Then Jesus goes on to say it is he that does the will of the father that is saved. So what is the will of the father? It tells us in John 6:29
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
So Jesus is saying that many will tell me of the works they have done to earn salvation, rather depending on what Jesus has done. If you had to make your case as why you should get to Heaven, would you start talking about what you have done?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
While this may imply that "working iniquity" is the problem, Jesus is simply calling them what they are. Without believing in and relying on what Jesus did on the cross, you are dead in your sins.

So the point of Matthew 7:21-23 is that it is only belief that saves you and there will be some that call Jesus Lord without believing it. That also includes some who are Lordship Salvation believers.

Well I may not have convinced you of anything and that's OK. You are a great well read brother in Christ and I highly respect you!!! :thumbup
No problem, brother. I have to preach and teach what God gives me in His Word as enlightened by His Holy Spirit.

For the record, I do not disagree with your first point ... or, for that matter, with your overall thesis. And I think that is clear in my previous post. My disagreement with your second point in your latest post is specifically with your exegesis. You state:
"So the point of Matthew 7:21-23 is that it is only belief that saves you and there will be some that call Jesus Lord without believing it."
But look again at Matthew 7:23. On what basis does Jesus reject them? He does not say, "You who do not believe," nor "You who do not truly accept me." He specifically says, "You who work iniquity." Therefore, THAT is the basis of their rejection. Now, their working of iniquity IS based on a failure to Biblically believe in Christ—in other words, they have not consciously decided to give themselves over to Christ, relying exclusively on His finished work to save them: they have not truly acknowledged in their heart that Christ is God and worthy of respect and obedience—but the evidence of that is their continued lifestyle. And we can see that from the word Christ used.

The Greek word is ἀνομία (anomía). It literally means "lawnessness". Thayer's Greek Lexicon says: "1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it; 2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness." Moulton and Milligan cite an example from a papyrus from the second century before Christ (Oxyrhyncus Papyri) where it is used of a lawless act (ie: a crime) and from a papyrus from the third century after Christ (Paris papyri #VIII, 1121:29 - 295 AD) where it is also used of a lawless act. As Lawrence O. Richards points out in his excellent Encyclopedia of Bible Words, anomía refers to a contempt for the law by acting contrary to it. W.E Vine in his Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words points out that it is essentially synonymous with "unrighteousness". Therefore, I suggest that those whom Christ is addressing in Matthew 7:21-23 are those who claim Christ, use His name, even do many acts in His name, but have no respect for righteousness. They live their lives for their own satisfaction and have no regard for Him or His eternal law. In other words, they are not new creations in Christ. That is a far different thing from someone who claims Christ, uses His name, seeks to serve Him, but struggles (and maybe often fails in that struggle) against the lusts of the flesh.

Paul was saved but struggled against sin and clearly lost when he struggled in his own power (Romans 7:22-24):
"I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
It is a struggle we ALL face. No man is sinless in this flesh. No man lives without sinning. So those who claim they do are deceived, as are those who claim we must or we are not saved. But let us not forget that Paul did not stop there. His very next sentence is:
"I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
In other words, we need not give up and think, "Well, I cannot win this fight, so why fight?" There IS victory—in Christ. Thus we should always push forward in hope of seeing that victory manifested in our own self.

I suggest to you that, as we continually push forward in that hope, we will gradually, more and more see that victory. It may take a very long time, and I am sure that it will never be complete in this life; but we must persevere. And if we are saved, then we will see increasing victory. Even if at times we relax and give up, God will always find a way to convict us and bring us back to repentance; and once again we will resume the battle to see His victory displayed in our own life.

I pray this helps.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
If you say that God will do the work of sanctification for anyone who believes, that's fine. However, if God is going to do the work there is no need to tell anyone about it.
Wow! I have never seen Calvinism applied to sanctification before! :lol I guess that just as a Calvinist believes that anybody whom God has decided to be saved will inevitably be saved, then you believe that anybody whom God wishes to be sanctified WILL be sanctified. We do not even have to tell them.
When you tell someone about the work that needs to happen in their life for salvation, they will automatically try to do it themselves. If they have trouble succeeding, they will start to think they are not saved.
Then I think God made a big mistake in repeatedly placing pictures of a perfect life in His New Testament. He is only making people read those descriptions that appear over and over in His Word and causing them to think that because they do not measure up to that then they are not saved. Sorry, bro, I cannot accept that. The truth is that God places those descriptions of the Christian life, those pictures of perfection, in order to give us a target at which to aim.

To not have a target is to draw a bullseye around wherever your metaphorical arrow lands and think, "Hey, I did well" when you did not do well at all. But to have a fixed bullseye provided by the Master and to see that your metaphorical life arrow keeps missing the mark (incidentally "missing the mark" is the literal meaning of hamartía, the word most commonly translated as "sin") should cause you to seek God and ask Him for His victory to be manifested in your life. And to ensure that believers get that correct message—specifically that failure is not lack or loss of salvation but a message to keep pushing forward—is the role of all godly preachers and teachers.
 

Goodboy

Won't Be Long Now!
No problem, brother. I have to preach and teach what God gives me in His Word as enlightened by His Holy Spirit.

For the record, I do not disagree with your first point ... or, for that matter, with your overall thesis. And I think that is clear in my previous post. My disagreement with your second point in your latest post is specifically with your exegesis. You state:
"So the point of Matthew 7:21-23 is that it is only belief that saves you and there will be some that call Jesus Lord without believing it."
But look again at Matthew 7:23. On what basis does Jesus reject them? He does not say, "You who do not believe," nor "You who do not truly accept me." He specifically says, "You who work iniquity." Therefore, THAT is the basis of their rejection. Now, their working of iniquity IS based on a failure to Biblically believe in Christ—in other words, they have not consciously decided to give themselves over to Christ, relying exclusively on His finished work to save them: they have not truly acknowledged in their heart that Christ is God and worthy of respect and obedience—but the evidence of that is their continued lifestyle. And we can see that from the word Christ used.

The Greek word is ἀνομία (anomía). It literally means "lawnessness". Thayer's Greek Lexicon says: "1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it; 2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness." Moulton and Milligan cite an example from a papyrus from the second century before Christ (Oxyrhyncus Papyri) where it is used of a lawless act (ie: a crime) and from a papyrus from the third century after Christ (Paris papyri #VIII, 1121:29 - 295 AD) where it is also used of a lawless act. As Lawrence O. Richards points out in his excellent Encyclopedia of Bible Words, anomía refers to a contempt for the law by acting contrary to it. W.E Vine in his Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words points out that it is essentially synonymous with "unrighteousness". Therefore, I suggest that those whom Christ is addressing in Matthew 7:21-23 are those who claim Christ, use His name, even do many acts in His name, but have no respect for righteousness. They live their lives for their own satisfaction and have no regard for Him or His eternal law. In other words, they are not new creations in Christ. That is a far different thing from someone who claims Christ, uses His name, seeks to serve Him, but struggles (and maybe often fails in that struggle) against the lusts of the flesh.

Paul was saved but struggled against sin and clearly lost when he struggled in his own power (Romans 7:22-24):
"I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
It is a struggle we ALL face. No man is sinless in this flesh. No man lives without sinning. So those who claim they do are deceived, as are those who claim we must or we are not saved. But let us not forget that Paul did not stop there. His very next sentence is:
"I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
In other words, we need not give up and think, "Well, I cannot win this fight, so why fight?" There IS victory—in Christ. Thus we should always push forward in hope of seeing that victory manifested in our own self.

I suggest to you that, as we continually push forward in that hope, we will gradually, more and more see that victory. It may take a very long time, and I am sure that it will never be complete in this life; but we must persevere. And if we are saved, then we will see increasing victory. Even if at times we relax and give up, God will always find a way to convict us and bring us back to repentance; and once again we will resume the battle to see His victory displayed in our own life.

I pray this helps.
All that you have stated still does not validate Lordship Salvation, which has been the whole point of this thread. Please respond to post #114 if you will.

Whoops, I posted this too fast. I see you did respond to post #114, sorry about that. :)
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
No problem, brother. I probably did so as you were writing your last post.

Anyway, let me put this in emphatic form:

I absolutely agree that nothing I have stated validates Lordship Salvation! Because I will never validate any false teaching! And Lordship Salvation is false teaching! It is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ! It is "another gospel".

OK, there. That's done.

I stand on my last two posts taken together. And you, my precious brother, as a beloved child of the Most High God are entitled to believe whatever you feel honors Him and fulfills His will in calling as many as possible into the Kingdom of His dear Son. :bighug
 

Goodboy

Won't Be Long Now!
Wow! I have never seen Calvinism applied to sanctification before! :lol I guess that just as a Calvinist believes that anybody whom God has decided to be saved will inevitably be saved, then you believe that anybody whom God wishes to be sanctified WILL be sanctified. We do not even have to tell them.
Then I think God made a big mistake in repeatedly placing pictures of a perfect life in His New Testament. He is only making people read those descriptions that appear over and over in His Word and causing them to think that because they do not measure up to that then they are not saved. Sorry, bro, I cannot accept that. The truth is that God places those descriptions of the Christian life, those pictures of perfection, in order to give us a target at which to aim.

To not have a target is to draw a bullseye around wherever your metaphorical arrow lands and think, "Hey, I did well" when you did not do well at all. But to have a fixed bullseye provided by the Master and to see that your metaphorical life arrow keeps missing the mark (incidentally "missing the mark" is the literal meaning of hamartía, the word most commonly translated as "sin") should cause you to seek God and ask Him for His victory to be manifested in your life. And to ensure that believers get that correct message—specifically that failure is not lack or loss of salvation but a message to keep pushing forward—is the role of all godly preachers and teachers.
Sorry Mattfivefour, but you are twisting my words. I totally agree that as you state "The truth is that God places those descriptions of the Christian life, those pictures of perfection, in order to give us a target at which to aim." Yes we should aim for perfection and get as close as possible, but that is not for salvation! You yourself are saying it is a target we should aim for, that to me is saying it is something we should do, not God. And yes we should do it, but again I am saying it is not so that we can be saved.

While it is fine for you to post your views, please don't misrepresent what I have posted. I hope and pray that ALL Christians work as hard as they can to obey all that the bible instructs. I have and will keep repeating myself though that works do not save you!!!
 
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