Lordship Salvation: The Latest Works Based Salvation Plan

Goodboy

Well-Known Member
Best to take the side approach. Just say to Pastor "you're hoping to clear up some questions you had. I'm being taught XYZ currently in Sunday school but it's been my understanding that XYZ is not biblical and I believe ABC. Can you clear up the the issue for me on where the church biblical stands. "

If the teaching is against that of the church then he will more than likely followup. If it's not, then you know where everyone stands.
Good advice! :thumbup
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Sometimes I wonder if salvation and a saved person gradually yielding to the holy spirit through sanctification are being fused together as the definition of being saved.
 

ozaprah

Well-Known Member
Here is my problem. Salvation is by far the most important thing to get right, because it involves ones eternal destination. As much as I dislike the prosperity Gospel, as least it does not preclude people from getting saved. If God predestines who will get saved, why seek God or Jesus or even share the Gospel? If you must completely submit to Jesus (Lordship salvation), some people like myself would never be drawn to Jesus. I am sure that Satan likes these two perspectives and may have been the one who thought of them.
I get where you are coming from.
However it still is important for us to realise that our Calvinist and Lordship Salvation brothers and sisters are still saved, on the assumption that they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. What their beliefs do affect is possibly their attitude towards evangelism (although many Calvinists would say otherwise) and the joy of their sanctification journey / understanding of eternal security. The irony is that even someone who is saved and doesn't believe in eternal security and goes through life on a roller coaster journey of uncertainty - actually still has eternal security! The joy comes to us in knowing God's promise to us.
 

ozaprah

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I wonder if salvation and a saved person gradually yielding to the holy spirit through sanctification are being fused together as the definition of being saved.
Almost certainly. How many actually hear good sermons on the three tenses of salvation - justification, sanctification, glorification.? Having a clear understanding of salvation clears up all of the muddy passages that get misused.
 

Goodboy

Well-Known Member
I get where you are coming from.
However it still is important for us to realise that our Calvinist and Lordship Salvation brothers and sisters are still saved, on the assumption that they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ. What their beliefs do affect is possibly their attitude towards evangelism (although many Calvinists would say otherwise) and the joy of their sanctification journey / understanding of eternal security. The irony is that even someone who is saved and doesn't believe in eternal security and goes through life on a roller coaster journey of uncertainty - actually still has eternal security! The joy comes to us in knowing God's promise to us.
I agree and was never questioning whether Calvinist and Lordship Salvation brothers and sisters were saved. My point is that their beliefs may keep others from getting saved.

As I stated the "Lordship salvation" message would have kept me from being saved. I am sure many others who either can't or don't want to completely give their life to Christ would not get saved based on this message.

The predestination message reduces the priority of sharing the gospel with others. I know Calvinists claim this is not the case and some even claim the predestination message causes them to share the Gospel even more. Now I am not saying that it is not possible for some, but it would not be true for most. Here is an example of my point.

Let's say you have just one plate of food and you have a neighbor boy on the right and a neighbor boy on the left of your house who both are very hungry. The neighbor boy on the right of your house parents will be home late and be sure to feed the boy. The neighbor boy on the left of your house parents have gone away for a week and the boy will not get to eat until they return. So who will you give the one plate of food to? The neighbor boy on the left, correct? Why? Because no matter what you do, the neighbor boy on the right will not starve. However if you do nothing, the neighbor boy on the left will starve.

So then the same is true of the Gospel. Based on predestination no matter what you do or don't do the same people will be saved whether you share with them or not. Now there is always and exception, but I really don't believe that most Christians will be as motivated to share the Gospel if it really makes no difference whether they do it or not. I will confess, that I would not be nearly as motivated and may not even share the Gospel at all if it really makes no difference.
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
I agree that the pastor should be notified of this. I used to attend a megachurch where the associate pastors kept alot of what was going on from the pastor. Because of that, many things ensued that were downright wrong and he knew nothing of it. I left that church.
 

Goodboy

Well-Known Member
I agree that the pastor should be notified of this. I used to attend a megachurch where the associate pastors kept alot of what was going on from the pastor. Because of that, many things ensued that were downright wrong and he knew nothing of it. I left that church.
Thanks for the advice Antitox! :)
 

Kem

Citizen
That is my own understanding because it is the clear teaching of Scripture. Accepting Christ as Savior AND Lord are both sides of the same coin. You can NOT have one without the other. To accept Him as Savior but refuse to bow the knee to Him as Lord is just looking for "fire insurance". God is not in the insurance business. He is in the assurance business. God is NOT mocked: Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
Thank you for your whole post pastor Adrian and also pastor Mike. Honestly I get pretty upset when folks insist that one can be saved without acknowledging or wanting the Lord Jesus Christ to be the Lord and refusing to bow to Him as Lord and owner if our lives. Since He IS the Lord, we can not be saved if refuse part of who He is.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
From Chris, post number 16 on this thread - Excellent

“Being saved, born again, is one thing; learning to live a consecrated Christian life is an entirely different thing. There is not any way you can judge whether people are born again except as you take their testimony that they have put their trust in Jesus Christ and depended on Him for salvation. Some of these young people indeed may not have been taught to trust in Christ. If they were looking for "an experience," a certain kind of feeling or emotion, then they may have been misled. But if they honestly turned their hearts to Christ and depended on Him for salvation, they were saved.

Now a Christian should live a consecrated Christian life but that does not automatically follow. People who are saved will find, like Paul, "When I would do good, evil is present with me . . . . So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:21,25).

Every saved person still has the old carnal nature and often-times has the same kind of temptation he had before. Some people who have truly been born again have a desperate fight to quit tobacco, and some have never seemed to get the victory over that or other bad habits. Some Christians have never learned to trust the Lord enough to bring tithes and offerings, and some have never learned to win souls. When a baby is born, he is not born grown. Being born is one thing; growing is another thing entirely.

So the thing to do is to take for granted that people are saved when they trust Christ for salvation. Then one should set out to teach them to read the Bible daily, to learn to pray about their daily needs, to confess their sins and failures and grow in grace day by day. It is as foolish to expect young Christians to be good Christians by themselves as it is to expect a child, born in the family, to automatically be a great credit to the family without any rearing—whether they are spiritual babes or physical babes. I assure you that unless people are taught to be consecrated Christians, taught to read the Bible and pray, they are not likely to be good Christians, even if they are truly born again”

SOURCE: Dr. Rice... Here Are More Questions, by John R. Rice, pg. 76,77, Sword of the Lord Publishers; ISBN: 0-87398-157-X
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Form Andy Woods sermon number 7 on the subject of soteriology, which is posted on this forum under “Sermons”. He nailed it with the definition.


“Here is Robert Lightner, he’s not a Lordship advocate but he’s defining it, and he says: “Lordship Salvation refers to the belief which says the sinner who wants to be saved must not only trust Christ as his substitute for sin, but must also surrender every area of his life to the complete control of Christ.” When he says “not only trust in Christ” but adds something else, that should raise some red flags because a couple of lessons ago we taught very clearly (based on about 200 passages) that people are saved by faith alone. Lordship salvation says you’re not saved by faith alone; faith is great but it also must be accompanied by something else, a surrender of some kind. Probably the biggest proponent of Lordship salvation today in our world and particularly in our church world is a very popular teacher by the name of John MacArthur and he wrote a book about this called The Gospel According to Jesus, and let me read to you an excerpt from this book.”

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/part-7-soteriology-by-dr-a-woods.115950/
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your whole post pastor Adrian and also pastor Mike. Honestly I get pretty upset when folks insist that one can be saved without acknowledging or wanting the Lord Jesus Christ to be the Lord and refusing to bow to Him as Lord and owner if our lives. Since He IS the Lord, we can not be saved if refuse part of who He is.
I disagree with the quoted portion from brother Adrian. They are not two side of the same coin. My previous post explains why I disagree. Its a rarity that I disagree with Adrian.
 

Goodboy

Well-Known Member
Form Andy Woods sermon number 7 on the subject of soteriology, which is posted on this forum under “Sermons”. He nailed it with the definition.


“Here is Robert Lightner, he’s not a Lordship advocate but he’s defining it, and he says: “Lordship Salvation refers to the belief which says the sinner who wants to be saved must not only trust Christ as his substitute for sin, but must also surrender every area of his life to the complete control of Christ.” When he says “not only trust in Christ” but adds something else, that should raise some red flags because a couple of lessons ago we taught very clearly (based on about 200 passages) that people are saved by faith alone. Lordship salvation says you’re not saved by faith alone; faith is great but it also must be accompanied by something else, a surrender of some kind. Probably the biggest proponent of Lordship salvation today in our world and particularly in our church world is a very popular teacher by the name of John MacArthur and he wrote a book about this called The Gospel According to Jesus, and let me read to you an excerpt from this book.”

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/part-7-soteriology-by-dr-a-woods.115950/
Great post Andy C!!! :thumbup

Where are the bible passages that back up the idea of Lordship Salvation? Must we believe that Jesus is Lord (God)? Of course, but the idea that we must change our lives and completely submit to him to be saved is not in the bible. Yes of course any true believer will bow to Jesus at his appearance as they acknowledge that he is LORD God. Why are some trying to define "bow to him as Lord" as changing your life? Most people will bow to and acknowledge their father as their parent who rules over them when they are young, but that does not mean they will even try to do everything their father says.

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/ghetto-salvation.152892/
 
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Andy C

Well-Known Member
Great post Andy C!!! :thumbup

Where are the bible passages that back up the idea of Lordship Salvation? Must we believe that Jesus is Lord (God)? Of course, but the idea that we must change our lives and completely submit him to be saved in not in the bible. Yes of course any true believer will bow to Jesus at his appearance as they acknowledge that he is LORD God. Why are some trying to define "bow to him as Lord" as changing your life? Most people will bow to and acknowledge their father as their parent who rules over them when they are young, but that does not mean they will even try to do everything their father says.

https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/ghetto-salvation.152892/
Excellent.

Some may confuse loss of fellowship with loss of union(salvation).
 

Goodboy

Well-Known Member
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The statement that you must believe, accept and ... is a problem that so many Christians fall into. Paul rebukes the Galatians to the point that he calls them foolish and asks "who hath bewitched you". Yes the Galatians were adding the requirement of circumcision to salvation, but we should not be adding anything! We need to just stick with what the bible says and stop adding our own thoughts as to what it takes to be saved!!!!
 

Kem

Citizen
I disagree with the quoted portion from brother Adrian. They are not two side of the same coin. My previous post explains why I disagree. Its a rarity that I disagree with Adrian.
I knew you would disagree Andy. It is one of the few issues you and I disagree on.
 

Kem

Citizen
It would be helpful if you or someone would give some bible verses to support your view. :)
Adrian and pastor Mike gave good verses and explanation. Also note that the title of the Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ. One can agree or disagree but that is who He is.
 

Goodboy

Well-Known Member
Adrian and pastor Mike gave good verses and explanation. Also note that the title of the Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ. One can agree or disagree but that is who He is.
If you say that Adrian and Pastor Mike posted scripture to backup Lordship Salvation, I believe you but I could not find it. Would you please either post the scripture Adrian and Pastor Mike used or post something that you know of that supports Lordship Salvation. :)
 

Kem

Citizen
Goodboy, I'm not even sure of your definition of Lordship salvation but in any case I have very clearly stated my position already and have no desire to go over and over it again. I'll leave it at agreeing with Adrian and Mike.
 
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