Literal chariots and horses?

[PortWen]

Yes, he did prophesy horses. I heard a well known pastor discussing this same topic awhile back. He spoke of the mountainous terrain that the invading forces from the north would have to go through. He said most likely horses would indeed be used out of necessity. The pastor quoted from Arnold Fruchtenbaum for much of what he said, and then said that he agrees that it's going to be horses, for one reason being he's a literalist when it comes to reading the Bible. I am, too, and I agree with Pastor Andy Woods' conclusion. He's a pretty good Bible scholar.

I agree with you…and I find the more I take the Bible literally, the easier it is to understand. For the life of me, I can’t fathom why people struggle so much with a literal understanding of things.

On a more humorous note, yesterday I saw a meme on Instagram which made me chuckle…”The gas prices are probably the reason the armies in Revelation are riding horses.”

 

[katt]

Ya know, using the logic of those that don't take these prophecies literally..I wonder how the birds in Revelation will be eating tanks..and if it doesn't literally mean horses, why be so specific when describing the blood being so deep that it comes up to their bridals?...just asking..

 

[Jan51]

Ya know, using the logic of those that don't take these prophecies literally..I wonder how the birds in Revelation will be eating tanks..and if it doesn't literally mean horses, why be so specific when describing the blood being so deep that it comes up to their bridals?...just asking..

Unless horses, blood and birds was the only language John had to describe the massive death and destruction he saw in his vision.

 

[daygo]

Unless horses, blood and birds was the only language John had to describe the massive death and destruction he saw in his vision.

Yep makes sense, after all John only had his knowledge and experiance to go on.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

If you assume Ezekiel 39 is talking about the same war as Ezekiel 38, Ezekiel 39:9-10 states that Israel will burn those weapons for 7 years for fuel. You can recycle scrap metal, but it's not a fuel source Ezekiel 39:10 states that Israel won't need to clear forests for fuel because of the weapons, which could would imply the weapons are made of wood..

Thermite, red and white phosphrous, explosives, etc. can be burned. Nuclear materials from nuclear weapons could be used in nuclear power plants. Etc.

The stocks of Soviet (Russian) AK are wood and/or plastic, both of which can be burned. Tires, canvas, etc. can be burned, plus fuels, lubricants, cleaners, paints, various chemicals, etc.

Besides Gog Magog, Revelation indicates the blood will be as deep as bridles, so there is another indication that literal horses and chariots will be used in future war.

 

[mattfivefour]

@Jan51 has written something we need to bear in mind in discussions such as this: people view things according to the scope of their knowledge. Anything outside of that scope is interpreted by reference to things within their scope. Something to consider.

To give a modern era example-- when the martyred missionary Jim Elliott first flew his yellow Piper PA-14 in search of the primitive Huaorani people of Ecuador in the 1950's, those stone age people believed his airplane to be a giant bee. Photos that were dropped were seen as magic demons, able to do harm (which probably led to the deaths of Elliott, Nate Saint and the others.) We know the Piper to have been an airplane because airplanes are common in our body of knowledge; but they were totally unknown and unimaginable to the Hauorani. So, when we read of the Huaorani's belief that the yellow airplane was a giant bee, we do not change our belief and say it must have been a giant yellow bee. That would be ridiculous. We simply realize the Huaorani were interpreting something beyond their comprehension in terms of something they knew.

I am not saying that the chariots and horses seen in biblical visions of the future are NOT necessarily literal chariots and horses; yet I do not think we can be doctrinaire in saying they are. I think we need to make allowances for the possibility that those ancient men of the Bible were logically interpreting what they saw in terms of what they knew.

Does that make the Bible inaccurate? Well, does the fact the Huaorani saw a giant yellow bee where we would see an airplane make that narrative inaccurate? Of course not. They saw what they knew; and so do we. The fact that they saw a giant bee and we know it to have been a plane, does not make the story false: only that it demonstrates two completely different realms of knowledge.

Just something to think about when discussing things beyond our ken ... or that of the Biblical writers.

 

[ChildofLight]

Other passage in the Bible say-

Revelation 9:6
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

This particular verse gives me the idea that John had no idea what it was and is doing the best he can describing something with references to things he did know to explain what he was seeing. Therefore, I believe he was being literal about the horses and something very similar to chariots.

 

[daygo]

Other passage in the Bible say-

Revelation 9:6
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

This particular verse gives me the idea that John had no idea what it was and is doing the best he can describing something with references to things he did know to explain what he was seeing. Therefore, I believe he was being literal about the horses and something very similar to chariots.

Yes makes you wonder about these things.

 

[BlessedBeliever]

Exactly some things we can only speculate, like my thinking that the Muslim faith will be completely destroyed at the Ezekiel war.

I’m thinking very similar thoughts as you are on this. In fact, I’m now pondering the thought that many Muslims will abandon Allah for Yahweh, and many new converts may be killed for their newfound faith, which obviously doesn’t sit well with the one world government /religion.

BB

 

[BlessedBeliever]

If you've heard both, I'd say the ones who point to Israel's ability are not reading the Bible, but reading their own ideas INTO the Bible.

Reading both chapters 38 and 39 of Ezekiel to get the full context nowhere does God say He will use the IDF.

There is a reason.

God is using this battle which HE alone fights, to turn all Israel back to Him. We need to compare Ezek 38 &39 to Isaiah 17.

Look closely at the wording around the Damascus destruction in Isaiah 17:9 when God is using the word ben Israel which is literally sons of Israel, translated "children of Israel" or "Israelites" as His instrument." 9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation." NIV

God says in Isaiah, the Damascus destruction that the "children of Israel" fight and the passage implies that they and everyone else will know they win because of God, but the IDF does the action.

God specifies that the sons of Israel (the IDF) will be why Damascus is destroyed.

NOTE CAREFULLY it is NOT Israel that starts that war. It is Damascus. It backfires on them.

Because God has started to move on Israel's behalf to make Himself known.

But He uses the IDF, and the process of turning Israel back to Him begins.

In contrast to Isaiah 17, God's explanation of what happens to the Ezekiel 38-39 invasion is completely His own.

Look at all the "I" statements God makes in those chapters. Even 38: 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother.

Do you see that God explains within the next sentence how that sword is summoned-- It is the enemy fighting within their ranks. This has lots of past --even recent events same method where God turns the weapons of the enemy against themselves.

All thru Ezekiel chapter 39 God is giving detail after detail how all this happens, and it's HIM alone. And the reason WHY is to draw all Israel to Him again. And make Himself known among the rest of the world too, but the focus is ISRAEL.

So in Isaiah 17 God uses the IDF, and in Ezekiel God does it alone. This is a one two punch straight at Israel's unbelief. This is an ongoing process that God begins in Isaiah 17, moving onto Ezek 38 & 39, and thru the whole of Jacobs trouble.

Paul explains it in Romans 11 and a key is in Romans 11: 25-27

An important key concept is that Israel doesn't "soften" towards God as a nation, till AFTER the church is gone, that "full number of the Gentiles has come in". God is either dealing with Israel or the church, not both at the same time. Even in the period up to the Cross it was Israel. After the Cross and definitely after Pentecost, God was dealing with the newborn church, completely Jewish, but soon to become largely Gentile although some Gentiles were present (Peter's Roman centurion) and some Jews are now present in the church. It is neither Jew nor Gentile but a new creation in Christ. When we go UP in the Rapture God again turns to the nation of Israel to bring about salvation.

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Now that goes along with the WHY that God is doing what He is doing in Isaiah and Ezekiel, and in fact the whole of the Tribulation period. Because in Isaiah 17: verses 7, 8 and 10 God explains WHY. Same reason.
Isaiah 17: 7,8 and10a

7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles
and the incense altars their fingers have made.

10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

verse 10 b last half goes onto a therefore-- a consequence of their actions, but I'm concentrating on the 3 bits in Isaiah 17 that explain God's reason for doing all this.

Now looking at Ezek 38 and 39 with 38 first because in 38 God is declaring He is making Himself known among the Gentiles (more on that later)
ch 38:
16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
and
23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

who is the "they" that God is speaking of? It is the GENTILE INVASION FORCES

Note here that these invaders don't have any Christians. Christians in their ranks would KNOW GOD ALREADY! This is a hint that Ez 38 at least happens AFTER the Rapture and it is designed for God to make HIMSELF KNOWN AMONG THE GENTILES

But now to Chapter 39:
7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel.

12 “‘For seven months the Israelites will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I display my glory will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign Lord.

21 “I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. 22 From that day forward the people of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God.


NOW WE COME TO THE FINISH LINE

25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name.

26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.

27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations.

28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

God will pour His Spirit out on the people of Israel as the believing remnant survivors turn to Him as Jesus said here:

Matthew 23: 37 (for context the very next chapter Jesus speaks of the end times-- it's all one passage until Mtt26:1 when Jesus finishes speaking and points out in 2 days He will be crucified-- this is the last time He speaks to Israel as a nation)

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

and Zechariah 12:10 says here:
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


by the way the Zechariah that is speaking here, Jesus mentions in Matthew 23 verse 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

In other words JESUS WAS POINTING THEM RIGHT AT THAT PASSAGE in Zechariah

But this is how the fulfillment will start to come to pass, as Israel notices God beginning with Damascus, intensifying with Ezekiel 38 & 39 and moving on into the Tribulation period.

So long answer but it should explain why these passages are so important to understand fully and why people who attribute the rescue of Israel to human means (the IDF) in Ezekiel 38 and 39 are so very very completely wrong.

greetings athenathius,

I just want to take the time to tell you…THANK YOU…for the awesome research/word study you did on this thread. Very enlightening indeed. Certainly makes one think harder and ponder longer. I love doing both.

BB

 

[Katie8758]

I was just reading some article about coronal mass ejections, which are waves of particles from the sun that can and do interfere with satellites. They also cause the aurora.

A substantial coronal mass ejection could fry the power grid. Our magnetosphere protects us but a strong enough ejection could cause problems.

In Ez 38, the invading forces against Israel are described as an army of chariots and horses.

I am one who thinks the Bible should be taken literally unless there’s context or reason to apply it otherwise.

The prophet Ezekiel would likely have had no idea about modern military equipment. But surely the army in his vision wouldn’t have looked like horses.

Which leads me to my question: will the invading army be literal horses and chariots or was this Ezekiel describing the army to the best of his ability given his knowledge at the time?

With these gas prices, literally riding horses instead may be more and more likely, lol!!!

 

[Jan51]

With these gas prices, literally riding horses instead may be more and more likely, lol!!!

Where I live, hay was really hard to get last year and this year is more scarce and expensive. Glad I no longer have to feed one. Shoers are just as scarce.

 

[katt]

Where I live, hay was really hard to get last year and this year is more scarce and expensive. Glad I no longer have to feed one. Shoers are just as scarce.

I've always wondered why until they are tamed and domesticated why do the wild horses not eat hay or wear shoes?....

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I've always wondered why until they are tamed and domesticated why do the wild horses not eat hay or wear shoes?....

Shoes are important to help protect horses' hooves and health when domesticated because pavement, concrete, and hard trails are hard on them. In the wild, horses are on grass and relatively soft earth. Severe drought, during which the ground gets like concrete, is had on wild horses, and not just lack of water or grass.

Hay is given to domesticated horses when no or inadequate forage/grass is available. Hay simply dried harvested grass, so horses in the wild do eat it when they eat dry grass.

 

[Jan51]

Shoes are important to help protect horses' hooves and health when domesticated because pavement, concrete, and hard trails are hard on them. In the wild, horses are on grass and relatively soft earth. Severe drought, during which the ground gets like concrete, is had on wild horses, and not just lack of water or grass.

Hay is given to domesticated horses when no or inadequate forage/grass is available. Hay simply dried harvested grass, so horses in the wild do eat it when they eat dry grass.

In this part of the country, wild horses wear their feet down naturally on the dry, hard and rocky ground. Domestic horses need regular trimming. Some have hard feet and can manage with no shoes, but some have softer feet. If they are used hard, most need shoes.

 

[pixelpusher]

In this part of the country, wild horses wear their feet down naturally on the dry, hard and rocky ground. Domestic horses need regular trimming. Some have hard feet and can manage with no shoes, but some have softer feet. If they are used hard, most need shoes.

Horse ignorant here, so do hooves keep growing like fingernails? I have a vague memory at some farm we visited as kids of seeing a man shaving a horses hoof with something like a spokeshave.

 

[Jan51]

Horse ignorant here, so do hooves keep growing like fingernails? I have a vague memory at some farm we visited as kids of seeing a man shaving a horses hoof with something like a spokeshave.

Yep they do! They generally get trimmed every 6-8 weeks. They trim first with nippers, then smooth and even up with a rasp. If shod, the shoes are pulled, hooves are trimmed, and new shoes put on. If you let them get too long, they can stumble when you are riding and it is not safe, or they can even get lame.

 

[Andy C]

Yep they do! They generally get trimmed every 6-8 weeks. They trim first with nippers, then smooth and even up with a rasp. If shod, the shoes are pulled, hooves are trimmed, and new shoes put on. If you let them get too long, they can stumble when you are riding and it is not safe, or they can even get lame.

Im also very knowledgeable about horses, and this knowledge has led me to STAY AWAY from horses You no doubt are and expert, me, not so much Knowledge is power, and fear of horses is powerful….

 

[Jan51]

Im also very knowledgeable about horses, and this knowledge has led me to STAY AWAY from horses You no doubt are and expert, me, not so much Knowledge is power, and fear of horses is powerful….

Haha! When I was young I wanted so badly to ride, but on the other hand I was afraid. That drove me to gain knowledge, to gain tools for my toolbelt so to speak, and the more knowledge and tools I gained, the more I lost my fear. It was a lifelong journey of learning, and I was fortunate to be married to one of the best.

However, I will agree that knowledge helps me know which horses to stay away from! I was no bronc rider! I had two horses that were both what we call "rehabs" or "project horses" LOL. But neither were buckers, and over several years, both become solid citizens that I used to teach many beginners to ride.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Im also very knowledgeable about horses, and this knowledge has led me to STAY AWAY from horses You no doubt are and expert, me, not so much Knowledge is power, and fear of horses is powerful….

At least you didn't end up with Mule, Animal on your military DL

As a joke, someone added that to my driving record and license when I got licensed on the 4X4 utility platform (mule).
Many years later, that landed me some "fine Army duty" with Mule, Animals It actually was good duty, but don't tell TPTB because they intended it as punishment